On the Historicity of the Book of Acts (feat Dr Bart Ehrman) (Craig Keener response)

[@Paulogia]

=== SIGN UP for NINT 2024 Conference www.tinyurl.com/BartCon2024 ===

[@patrickthorpe422]

Great content, Paul! Love to see it, keep up the good work.

[@jackricky5453]

My problem with Ehrman's explosion story is that if it were in one written source, and he could only verify the circumstantial details, but not the claim of the explosion, he would most likely conclude that the explosion happened, because a writer is more likely to mention a significant detail over a trivial one, and because explosions happen frequently. I don't think his story is a very good parallel to the Book of Acts.

[@DrWolves]

I've got my ticket!

[@Badficwriter]

@@jackricky5453 That makes no sense.

[@MatthewFearnley]

Testify has posted links to a couple of preexisting videos to address the claims Ehrman makes in this video. "The Reliability of Acts: A Conversation with Dr. Tim McGrew" "Just HOW WRONG can Bart Ehrman be about Acts and Paul's epistles?"

[@greg8106]

Whenever I want to hear the verified story of Paul, I don't turn to Acts, I turn to this channel. I find this Paul to be much more animated.

[@aralornwolf3140]

A very animated animation?

[@greg8106]

@@aralornwolf3140 the blinking is so realistic!

[@Limited_Light]

Now when I get to the NT, Saul/Paul will be visualized as a rarely moving zombie.

[@nasonguy]

But have you seen him? Have you touched him? How do you know he's real? Has he written a book? /s

[@pineapplepenumbra]

Personally, I turn to cheese dreams if I want to know anything about Paul. I reckon they're a better source on Paul than Paul is.

[@Julian0101]

6:25 Bart erhman: "Anyone can write anything about me" Frank turek: allow me to introduce myself.

[@Paulogia]

Ha ha ha ha

[@epiphanydrums5427]

Oh yeah 👍

[@soonerarrow]

Gary Habermas' Magnum Opus Volume 1: _"Misquoting Bart Ehrman"_ for the WIN!

[@Rain-Dirt]

Frank Turek xD what a joke.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

Or, Please allow me to introduce myself/I'm a man of wealth and taste...

[@wingedlion17]

“History was not written the same way today”, “they weren’t concerned about total accuracy “… at the same time keener wants his followers to accept the book word for word and inerrant and accurate.

[@Soapy-chan]

the fact that his followers don't have the very low critical thinking skills required to get this simple, yet crushing contradiction is insane to me.

[@quebeccityoliver4742]

I think we have a different word for that type of person, storyteller. If you are weaving a narrative then you are not telling history. Brilliantly done in the film Beowulf where the hero is recounting what happened to him and says he was attacked by 9 people and his mate behind him whispers, "last week, it was 3". The story changes over time and pretty quickly.

[@yasszz4400]

They all do that that’s crazy! They openly want people to believe inerrancy of this “ not the same standard of accuracy that modern historians”.

[@MythVisionPodcast]

This conference will be outstanding Paulogia, I will be there brother.

[@psyseraphim]

I will also be there, not that it matters that some random dude on the Internet is going but the ones I've attended previously, as a layman have been incredible.

[@mattpitrone7371]

Thanks to both you and Paulogia for all your great work. I started reading NT in various translations & looking at the interlinear about a year ago and found both Paulogia and your channel extremely helpful & insightful.

[@AynRKey]

We have found the remains of Troy, therefore the Trojan war happened, therefore Zeus exists.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

Rock solid logic.

[@MrMarcusIndia]

I'm willing to believe the Trojan War happened. We know that cities exist. We know wars happen around cities all the time, particularly those on important trading routes. It's quite possible that such a war inspired Homer's Iliad, where it was embellished with stories about evil kings, gods, miracles and so forth. Similarly I'm quite willing to believe there was a Jewish preacher wandering around about 2000 years ago. He might even have said some stuff that was possibly considered quite heretical at the time. He might even have annoyed some people enough that they had him killed. That sort of stuff happens all the time. Then a cult embellished his story with tales of gods and evil kings and zombies and miracles and so forth. You see where I'm going with this presumably... (Although The Iliad is a much better story than the bible, in my opinion.)

[@Cole205]

This, but unironically 😂😅

[@MrAuskiwi101]

Yes gotta laugh at those who claim archaeological evidence for Jesus. The shroud, the tomb, the crown of thorns, etc. Really only evidence that believers have no belief standards and will swallow anything

[@DavidSmith-vr1nb]

But was it Troy II or Troy IV that burned because of Helen (no really, tell me, I forgot)?

[@RedAngelSophia]

If they use that kind of logic, then they must accept that ABRAHAM LINCOLN: VAMPIRE HUNTER is historically accurate and reliable.

[@pansepot1490]

Lmao! Just posted the same example in another thread! Great minds think alike. ;)

[@KingoftheJuice18]

Were they any vampires in or around the White House during Lincoln's time in office? Checkmate.

[@erict.watson2460]

Wait .... what . ... . are you saying it isn't?

[@KingoftheJuice18]

Sister, were there any vampires in or around the White House in his day? Checkmate.

[@KingoftheJuice18]

Well, were there any vampires in or around the White House during his time in office? Checkmate.

[@flowingafterglow629]

The Book of Acts is historically reliable in those places where we can confirm its reliability. Sure there are some places where it is verifiably wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it's reliable. Or something like that.

[@rockets4kids]

So, kind of like an Oliver Stone film?

[@goldenalt3166]

If you want to claim the Bible is inerrant or divinely inspired, we very much can judge it by "standards that haven't been written yet".

[@davidhoffman6980]

Exactly. Keener complains that our standards are too high for the new testament authors but he seems to forget that they had an omnipotent God dictating every jot and titl so it doesn't matter how historians wrote or that they didn't have recording technology.

[@MadeiraFonseca]

@@davidhoffman6980 You have no idea what you're talking about; "jot's and tittles" appear in the HEBREW language; the New Testament was written in Greek. There are NO jots and tittles in Greek. Learn Hebrew so you can see how the church lied to you.

[@davidhoffman6980]

@@MadeiraFonseca I do know what I'm talking about. I was using an expression. I can't believe you didn't realize that from the context. You also didn't realize that I'm not a believer. I don't care if you think a church lied to me. Christians believe in a God that knows all, and can do all. Thus there are no excuses for historical inaccuracies, internal contradictions, failed prophecies, bad morality, or any other kind of problems. There are no excuses for a real God.

[@harveywabbit9541]

Zeus read the bible and his only comment was "who wrote this piece of shit."

[@MadeiraFonseca]

@@harveywabbit9541 😆👍

[@MythVisionPodcast]

I align with Pervo and MacDonald on this point, recognizing the Book of Acts as a work that intricately weaves together various themes. However, I also see it functioning as a piece of pseudo-history, skillfully blending narrative elements and likely drawing from sources such as Josephus to craft its storyline.

[@Paulogia]

Do you recall in which book MacDonald speaks about Acts?

[@misuvittupaa8068]

Pervo means pervert in finnish:D

[@johnnehrich9601]

Acts draws on Josephus to add, as Pooh-bah says in Gilbert & Sullivan's Mikado: "Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative." We know it comes FROM Josephus and not the other way around because Acts gets stuff wrong, or incomplete, stuff that doesn't make sense unless you read the full account in Josephus.

[@obaidaashraf]

I also think Steve mason made a book on Luke and josephus​@@Paulogia

[@MythVisionPodcast]

@@Paulogia MacDonald is a big fan of Pervo, where Pervo was interested in assessing the genre of Luke/Acts, while MacDonald sees it as a founding myth that attempts to create a narrative using several different genre themes which is a blend of fiction and verisimilitude to craft an identity group. These narratives establish a distintiveness of the in-group and all other groups. Luke & The Politics of Homeric Imitation is the book he recommends, however the cost is a bit pricey. MacDonald said he can send you a pdf of his upcoming book which highlights these themes. Hit me up and let me know if you need me Paul.

[@Theprofessorator]

I love Dr. Ehrman's deadpan delivery of "Paul was not a monotheist." Along with the bright cheery sound effect. It had a very "For the Bible Tells Me So" vibe to it. 🤣

[@matesajben5274]

He wasn't? Does he explain it somewhere why he thinks that?

[@Theprofessorator]

@@matesajben5274 Since it's a topic in the seminar, I'd assume that's where you'd have to go to find out. :p However, if I were a betting man, I'd wager it has something to do with 2 Corinthians 4:4, where Paul talks about the "God of this World" which is a very specific term from "Gnosticism." Christians have rendered it to mean "Satan," but my understanding is that Satan is nowhere to be found in the passage in earliest manuscripts we have. Please keep in mind, I'm not an expert, I'm just guessing. I myself am not entirely convinced by this argument, but I will admit I do kinda want to see the seminar to see what they're talking about, but I think I'm just look for more reasons to write off Paul entirely. I personally find Paul's entire message unpersuasive. Guy has visions out in the middle of the dessert and then comes back and decides he knows who Jesus is better than the disciples that lived with him??? I don't buy it and so I really don't care if wanted to sleep with women or not, or whether or not he thought you could be saved through works alone. I also kinda hate that he's such a big figure because I find him the least interesting.

[@matesajben5274]

@@Theprofessorator thanks for reply I will look into it if I can find any other sources outside the seminar. It is outside of my price range.

[@shieldon530]

woah i just opened the YT homepage to see this being made public to nonmembers one minute ago! awesome, cant wait to watch - you and Bart are always a treat :)

[@exmormonroverpaula2319]

The story of Joseph Smith includes many real places and real people. Palmyra, NY was a real place. Nauvoo, IL was a real place. Joseph Smith and his wife Emma Smith were real people. That doesn't show that Joseph Smith actually saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. Those real places and people don't show that the Book of Mormon is authentic.

[@pansepot1490]

I make the “Lincoln Vampire Hunter” film example. Lincoln was real therefore vampires exists.😅

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

I agree with you but I would add that the Book of Mormon has almost zero historical places or people. Only people and places that everyone would have heard of like Damascus and Jerusalem. The vast, vast majority of places and people are completely made up and there is no historical evidence for them.

[@markrothenbuhler6232]

I think it would be interesting for someone to review the apocryphal books of Acts (Thomas, Philip, Peter, etc.) and see if there are also historical details in those. Then you say that obvious non-eyewitnesses include historical details to make their fiction more real to readers and listeners. Voila, that is what Luke-Acts has also done, just earlier than the others.

[@Paulogia]

that would be a super interesting study

[@mrwallace1059]

​@@Paulogia Maybe an upcoming video from you??

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Heck, you can open up comic books or historical fiction and find that out.

[@soarel325]

Kamil Gregor has done this with Greco-Roman polytheistic texts to show just how spurious the arguments of apologists are

[@MrMortal_Ra]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@soarel325Could you point me into the direction of where I could find that? Curious. Kamil Gregor’s points are always very interesting to me.

[@charlesleitz7549]

"Novels are purely fiction. They aren't about human beings who actually lived." I mean, that may or may not be true in the context of ancient novels, but it's certainly not true of contemporary ones!

[@alanpennie8013]

Dr Ehrman has not encountered *historical fiction* it would appear. Acts may well belong to that genre.

[@charlesleitz7549]

@@alanpennie8013 Yeah. I don't know why I decided to be so generous with the 'may or may not be true of ancient novels' thing, either, because it's definitely not true - the Alexander Romance is just the most obvious example of an ancient novel unquestionably about a real person.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

@@charlesleitz7549A later example I’d point out is Ivanhoe.

[@wilhelmschmidt7240]

0:58 Did everyone else laugh when Bart said Paul was the second most important figure in Christianity on Paulogia's channel? Hear that Paul, you're only second to Jesus 😂😂😂

[@Nymaz]

If Paul is the second, that would make the order: The Beatles->Paulogia->Jesus

[@BrianStevens-y6h]

"Around the World in 80 days" must be a true account because of the amount of correlation with........

[@KaiHenningsen]

Even time-tables, I believe.

[@Julian0101]

@@KaiHenningsen It even accounts for the gap of one day by going east. How would anyone know that if it werent true?!!

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

@@Julian0101It even accurately portrays the places it shows such as Hong Kong, Liverpool, and Japan! That must mean Phineus Fog was a real person too!

[@norbertjendruschj9121]

@@Julian0101 My dear, it was a whole day!

[@Julian0101]

@@norbertjendruschj9121 Dang it, edited

[@ufpride83]

One of the biggest mythologies about history is that historians are all pure minded individuals who only care about accurately describing events exactly as they happened. The fact this guy is trying to convince everyone that all ancient historians all recorded history the exact same way with the exact same mindset and goals of accurately describing events as they happened shows hes just making things up as he goes. People today can’t agree on the actual description of events that happen on camera right in front of our eyes so it’s comical anyone tries to pretend that humans in the past would agree on actual facts of the events that occurred in their lifetime. All of history isn’t what actually happened but rather it’s everything the people of the past who wrote it and the people of the past who preserved it want us to know about that particular time in history.

[@bazcuda]

"History is just a lie that historians agree on." 😜

[@JohnTorres1987]

Paul was just a guy who converted to Christianity and used his “vision” of Jesus and his own thoughts that he claimed were from God to influence people that whatever he said was as good as if Jesus had said it. Like many religions, there was a splintering after the founder died and a struggle for power and the claim of being the true heir to the founder. Paul won this battle since he was a Roman citizen which afforded him rights that the apostles didn’t have, he could read and write, and he spent a lot of time convincing others and starting churches.

[@soarel325]

Richard C. Miller makes some good points about the genre of Acts by pointing out that ancient histories made distinctions between historiae (accounts of events meant to be read as having actually happened, purporting to be genuine history) and fabulae (myths, legends, folklore, and other events featuring fantastical, supernatural, and miraculous elements). When fabulae are included in actual histories, the authors qualify them with the Greek equivalent of “it is said that…” or such. The Gospels and Acts, meanwhile, uncritically present fabulae and historiae together without such qualifications, something that’s not found in any actual works of history, but very common in mythology, cultic initiatory documents, and other legendary writings meant to communicate theological ideas to initiates rather than to be read as historical accounts. As Miller says, Acts has this historicizing prologue and then just has angels flying around shortly afterwards with no qualification of the claim whatsoever. On the matter of the “we” passages, I’ve seen the argument that the stylistic use of the second person plural was very common in (fictitious) ancient travel narratives, especially when done by sea, which seems like a far more likely explanation for why the POV changes back and forth so suddenly on the sea-journey parts of Acts.

[@cemreomerayna463]

One of the things I vehemently disagree with Miller is his classification of the Christian textual material. For whatever reason Miller imagines Greco-Romans in general are aware of the facts and the folklore. He is extrapolating the intelligence of the few smart and intellectually honest people of their age to a whole population based on their writing criteria. There are a ton on writings from the Greco-Roman polytheists in the same vein as the Christian materials; throwing extraordinary stories and claiming them to be true events. The Gospels and the Acts are clearly historiographies, regardless of how bad they are in their genre.

[@soarel325]

@@cemreomerayna463 Have you read his academic writing? In his review of Litwa's book he goes into how real historiae qualified legendary claims as separate from veridical ones.

[@cemreomerayna463]

​@@soarel325 I did not read his writings, but I listened to him talking about it in several videos. His presentation on history writing in Greco-Roman literature is pretty much based on the way how Thucydides describes history writing. My problem with his argument is that only a few people used that distinction (Tacitus, Xenophon, maybe Livy). A great majority of the writers, even some famous ones (like Plutarch) did not follow that kind of rigor or any kind of distinction at all. The mythological material presented as history in Greco-Roman writings overwhelms the number of history works that make that distinction. The Christian material fits very well into the first group.

[@Locust13]

Why is Paul worthy of a Damascus road experience but none of the rest of us are? We have to take the word of a violent bloody mystic as he says "trust me bro, God told me this in a dream"? If this God genuinely exists he has chosen to communicate things in the most bafflingly idiotic way possible.

[@niddy-2.0]

Blessed are those who have NOT seen - Jesus. 😞

[@scottneusen9601]

​@@niddy-2.0Kind of a dick move to the people he's talking to though. Like y'all not blessed cause I'm here.

[@whatevername8551]

He didn't even let Saul's companions hear / see the revelation when they were right there. Something seems a little off...

[@j8000]

​@@niddy-2.0right, so what had Paul done to deserve being denied that blessing?

[@Nymaz]

Probably the same reason Jesus regularly helps believers find their car keys but doesn't bother saving children from dying from cancer. Jesus is the original manic pixie dream deity. He's totally random that way.

[@Locust13]

Once again, instead of making the case that Jesus is alive and well and relevant today, the apologists must scurry terrified back to ancient history to beg you to believe some unverifiable accounts are accurate. They caterwaul about dubious evidence while believing that Jesus is standing behind them silently contributing nothing to the conversation. Apologetics is bottom of the barrel. They've got nothing.

[@haydenwalton2766]

yep, and the jesus is myth

[@njhoepner]

The "evidence" presented for the existence of their god and their supposedly alive and well Jesus is precisely the same as one would present for any imaginary friend. The only difference is they call theirs "Jesus" and the others are called "Harvey" or something.

[@XDRONIN]

To be fair to the writer of Acts,... Paul was the one who said, _To the Jew, I am a Jew, and to the Gentile, I am a Gentile, all to gain converts_ Can you imagine that this is what your teachers say to do?? *So, why wouldn't you write anything as long as it sounds convincing enough to gain converts?*

he also says lying for god isn't a sin in Romans

[@MadeiraFonseca]

Exactly, Paul uses used car salesman tactics - anything you gotta do to close the deal. Where do we find any of the prophets of the Tanach using these tactics? NOWHERE! Did Noah try to evangelize the Antediluvian world? Did Moses try to evangelize the Egyptians? Did Jonah try to evangelize the people of Nineveh? NO, NO, and Hell NO.

[@maninalift]

Starting strong with a false dichotomy "either it's a novel or is an accurate history". There are more categories of literature. Mythologising hagiography is one that I might mention completely at random 😜

[@Badficwriter]

Its fiction or nonfiction. If you are a gossip columnist writing as if everything you have heard is verified fact, you are still writing fiction with real world elements.

[@vaughnrees8908]

We call that "Historical Fiction"

[@bazcuda]

Exactly. Robert Harris wrote an entire fictional trilogy based around what we know about Cicero, his whereabouts at various times, his public speeches and what we know about people like Pompey and Julius Caesar with whom he may have interacted (Imperium, Lustrum, Dictator). It's great, highly recommended. But nobody in their right mind would claim that RH's fiction was actually historical or that the conversations and meetings Cicero has with Pompey in the book actually took place.

[@PhilSophia-ox7ep]

No, it isn't historical fiction That would make it a novel.

[@riseofdarkleela]

@@bazcudai want to read this!

[@dino335]

@@bazcuda Try Coleen McCullough's "Masters of Rome" series - seven volumes starting around 110 BC with Gaius Marius --through the battle of Actium.

the genre is sacred text

[@glenn_r_frank_author]

Surprised that you didn't include Gimli at the beginning saying "...and My Axe"

[@calanm7880]

Stoked to see 2 profs formerly of University of Glasgow: Dr Joel Marcus & Dr John Barclay… whom I played piano for as he conducted the Divinity College choir in Inverness Prison (part of tour of Northern Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿).

[@philipinchina]

Your content never disappoints. Thanks.

[@fred_derf]

Wait... are you telling me that the existence of New York doesn't prove that Spiderman is real? Next you'll be telling me that London doesn't prove that Harry Potter is real!

[@thomasgallipoli8376]

What about Sherlock Holmes? My dad has a letter stating he liked my dad’s letter from his authorized press secretary and his signature is on it. 😂

[@jameskpolk9137]

Starting a new Biblical Lit course at my uni and my prof had Dr. Ehrman as his doctoral advisor. Super excited!

[@pansepot1490]

Congrats. Have fun! 👍

[@aaron_propp]

Confirmable Details, Cold Reading, & the New Testament I wasn’t finding this video all that informative because of the lack of sophistication of Craig Keener’s assertions until I recognized one of the tactics being employed. Taking “confirmable details” to present new information as authoritative is the same logic used in cold reading. It may not be like Jesus and the woman at the well in the Gospel of John because the magic trick isn’t being played in person (or being depicted as being played in person as it was with the Gospel of John) and an individual isn't the one providing the "confirmable details", but it’s basically the same trick. John Edwards “knew” details about your dead relative, therefore your dead relative must’ve said the things John Edwards claimed from beyond the grave. Don’t they see how that’s completely fucking stupid? Just because an ancient author did some research from existing sources like Josephus, it doesn’t give any kind of extra credibility to the unique details that only they provide. In cold reading, you provide the “confirmable details”, but with the historicity of Acts, other ancient sources provide the “confirmable details”. With both, these details are used to persuade an acceptance of the unique details only in the New Testament as if they could ever have equal weight with the sources of the “confirmale details”. It’s a trick to get you to view both sets of data as equal and interchangeable, when all it is a categorical sleight-of-hand. They are borrowing from the credibility of the “confirmable details” to give unearned and undeserved credibility to the unique details that only they provide. It may not be in person where you provide the “confirmable details”, but it’s still cold reading to get you to accept fabricated information.

[@jackfrosterton4135]

@Paulogia I'm dying to know how you compile the movie clips with keywords. It's been killing me Paul, please share your secret. My best guess is scraping the transcripts of tons of movies, which would be crazy but it's my best guess

[@LM-jz9vh]

"As a quick example, let’s consider the book of Acts. A familiar and pivotal aspect of Acts is the story of Paul’s conversion. Acts 26:15 relates that Paul, an opponent and persecutor of Christians, had an unexpected spiritual epiphany in which he heard the voice of Jesus say to him *“Saul, Saul, why persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”* *So, what makes this passage significant? It strongly appears that the Acts narrative of Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus is taken in large part from the pages of Euripides’ popular play “The Bacchae.”* In this narrative, the persecutor Pentheus is ironically converted despite himself to the faith of Dionysus by an unwelcome personal epiphany of the Dionysian god *(sidebar: Dionysus is also known for miracles such as turning water to wine).* During this sudden encounter, Pentheus hears a voice from Dionysus - the persecuted deity, who says to Pentheus in a voice from heaven: *“You disregard my words of warning… and kick against the goads.”* *Yes, that same phrase appears in The Bacchae and in the same exact narrative context as found in Acts.* When examining New Testament writings, it pays to be at least moderately familiar with Greco-Roman literature from antiquity, as these uncanny parallels with Biblical writings would otherwise go completely unnoticed. Another peculiar “tell” pointing to literary borrowing is that the Acts narrative claims Jesus spoke to Paul in a Hebrew dialect. *But the idiom “to kick against the goads” is specifically a Greek pun found only in pagan literature and is not found in any Hebrew or Aramaic source, nor was it used by any Jews in antiquity. So it’s quite the awkward coincidence that Jesus (while speaking in Hebrew) quotes a Greek pagan proverb to Paul in the exact same situation as found in a popular pagan play.* Namely, both cases feature an impromptu conversation between a persecuted god and a notorious persecutor who serendipitously converts to faith as a result." *"Are Stories in the Bible Influenced by Popular Greco-Roman Literature? - The Doston Jones Blog"* Also, look up: *"When Were the Gospels Written and How Can We Know? - The Doston Jones Blog"* *"How Did The Gospel Writers Know? - The Doston Jones Blog"* *"Yes, the Four Gospels Were Originally Anonymous: Part 1 - The Doston Jones Blog"*

[@tim57243]

You are off by one. "Goads" is mentioned in Acts 26:14 but Doston wrote the verse as Acts 26:15.

[@MadeiraFonseca]

You forgot to mention the "Damascus road" experience is told three times in the book of Acts, and no two of the three accounts match up. That puts the "Luke was a first rate historian" myth to rest. He can't even tell the same story three times the same way in the same book.

[@dayvancowboi9135]

@@tim57243 i think he probably meant "aside from acts" in general but that's a good thing to note.

[@tim57243]

@@dayvancowboi9135 I updated my comment to clarify. You might be right, but I'm sure the thing I was saying was simpler than what you were talking about.

[@Neomalthusiano]

Luke also "copied" Herodotus when he told the story of Ananias, but both those situations are irrelevant. Luke purposedly made Acts full of references to Greek culture and literature as a style. It's like when someone is reading Erasm of Rotterdam: he mentioned Greco Roman culture several times as a reference of what was going on on medieval times. Luke's gospel composition is above Mark and Matthew because he had a more educated understand of writing.

[@sobertillnoon]

His absolute word salad of "histories are written different now" is confusing me. So facts were the most important but they were more interested in the moral? So does that mean they'd bend the facts to suit that moral? Ancient historians are focused on scenes but the example he jumps to is the Bible, the thing that is in question. I don't understand how this helps anyone

[@Critical_Capybara]

@13:37, if you were to make something up you could make anything up. Deception is incredibly diverse

[@moonshoes11]

Apologists are certainly not a reliable source.

[@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn]

Keener argues the "We" sections in Acts show that Luke was an eyewitness to those events. Couldn't someone then argue that the lack of "We" sections in the gospels are evidence they are NOT eyewitness accounts?

[@andrewhargreave7246]

Not really. That's an absence of evidence rather than evidence of absence sorta thing. You could *maybe* use it as an argument against Luke being an eyewitness to the gospel story (since it's the same author).... but I think the introduction to Luke makes it pretty clear that he isn't claiming to be one. Basically, you'd be strengthening his argument for the we passages without gaining much.

[@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn]

@@andrewhargreave7246 I think it "adds" to the argument, doesn't "prove" anything. Paul constantly says "I did this" and "I did that", and Luke says "We went here". But NO gospel writer ever says "I" or "We" did anything. Seems odd if any of them were eyewitnesses.

[@soarel325]

Scholars do reject Matthean authorship for this reason. It's really silly to begin with

[@MrMortal_Ra]

Or a very reasonable assumption to make is that wherein the places prior to and after the the appearances of the “we” passages in Acts (appearing first at chapter 16), that the author of Luke (assuming here for the sake of the argument that the “we” passages indicate that the author was a accompanied Paul on some travels) simply was not there.

[@alanpennie8013]

​@@MrMortal_Ra That seems most likely. Some actual eyewitness testimony got incorporated.

[@acerx203]

Craig Keener: "60% of the time it works every time"

[@cosmo6122]

Been waiting for this one ‼️‼️

[@GodlessCommie]

I had someone say “Paul and Peter had the same theology because they were companions in Acts” and I still get headaches when i’m reminded of that lol.

[@drooten]

I love that you continue to use a comic type presentation of persons. That and your deep resonance.

[@DeceptionStudiesHQ]

thx for posting Paul ❤❤

[@harveywabbit9541]

The Hebrew term for Damascus, namely דמשק (dammasq), means something like The Beginning Of Salvation. The Chronicler's slightly adapted term for Damascus, namely דרמשק (darammasq) means Period Of Salvation or perhaps more precise Full Turn In The Pattern Of Salvation. The gate to Damascus is the spring equinox and this is where light/summer (Ahura Mazda) overtakes darkness/winter (Ahriman).

[@Marniwheeler]

Thank you. Informative, and easy to understand.

[@kasey42]

The 60% accuracy made me think of LaForge falling in love with the hologram of the warp engine designer of the Enterprise D.

[@Canaanitebabyeater]

Can't wait for Michael Jones to make a 3 hour livestream about this

[@HangrySaturn]

I wish I was able to go to this conference so much.

[@JeffWishart]

Bonus points for using the "Some Kind of Wonderful" clip.

[@bodricthered]

This doesn't even rise to the level of being wrong, they're just claiming stuff that they can't possibly defend while ignoring anyone that points that out. It must be exhausting for Erhman and Paul to be presented with this level of thought over and over....

[@jursamaj]

I'd argue that Paul was *more* important to christianity than Jesus.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

Absolutely. Without Paul there is almost no chance that Christianity survives and grows.

[@Badficwriter]

@@jonathanwilliams1641 Jesus might have been accepted as a prophet, gotten his own book. Maybe a little sect somewhere.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

@@Badficwriter Sure. Like the dozens, hundreds of itinerant preachers who were active there at the time. Just like a preacher today who has a congregation but then gets old and dies, the congregation pretty much fades away and follows another. That is what probably would have happened with Jesus if not for Paul.

[@jonathanwilliams1641]

@@Badficwriter Here is another way to look at it: JK Rowling's Harry Potter was rejected by 12 publishers before it was purchased and published. If no publishers had ever gone with it we would not have the global reach of Harry Potter and it would have died a silent death in Rowling's belongings. There are THOUSANDS of novels that were never published that the world will never learn of but every once in a while, for reasons that are happenstance, a story like Harry Potter is hugely popular to a huge audience and it changes the world. Paul essentially picked up the story of Jesus and successfully sold it to an audience. Nothing more.

[@Uryvichk]

Well yeah. There doesn't have to have even been an actual historical Jesus for Christianity to exist, but "the guy who wrote the authentic Pauline letters" certainly existed.

[@egorall]

What would be helpful for those that cannot make the conference would be the speeches to be collected into a book (or eBook) and made available on the major book platforms.

[@dyamonde9555]

i think if you buy a ticket you somehow get acces to an archive of the speeches. at least that was how they did it with earlier seminars and such.

[@barrysoper9183]

Thanks Paul! Big Fan.

[@jakerz0]

I would love if the sign behind Keener’s head just said “seeeeed”

[@greengelacid2061]

I’ve recently purchased a couple of Prof. Ehrman’s books…they are excellent…

[@jamiegallier2106]

Thank you Paul!❤

[@ADEpoch]

It's like fingerprints. How many points do you need to be considered a match? That's quite subjective. But if you want to be 100% sure then you need more points. If any one point is wrong then you really need to ask whether it's accurate or not.

[@MNMLSTN]

seeing cap on a bible video is truly 2024 vibes

[@DavidsFeverDream]

21:28 this reminds me i need to work on my Policy debate case...

[@welcometonebalia]

Thank you.

[@Lobsterwithinternet]

Whenever I read Acts, I imagine the writer as that drunk Boba Fett from the Robot Chicken shorts.

[@DamienZachariah]

I would also be interested in what the ancient philosophy schools thought of all this eg: Sceptics, Pythagoreans and Stoics thought of all this . Keep up the good work.

[@Reznovmp40]

A Paul vid AND a Bart podcast??? Today will be a good day

[@pjosephlthewonder5082]

So now I need to look into acts as a 'history' rather then, as I have done nothing more then a 'narrative.' When I have time I will look into those classes and such you two offer. Peace

[@JamesRichardWiley]

The Book of Acts is a collection of promotional stories written by early Christians supporting the growth of Christianity

[@User81981]

No it isn’t, these arguments are weak and have been refuted before.

[@ramigilneas9274]

@@User81981 There is literally zero evidence against the idea that the stories are made up.😂

[@Julian0101]

@@User81981 Yes they are, acts not only get wrong the event described by paul about himself, but it doesnt even stand to scrutiny to history we know from back then. The responses about its unreliability are weak and have been easily refuted since a long time ago.

[@User81981]

@@ramigilneas9274 😂 there is, but then again you haven’t looked. Quite like when we discussed Jesus being buried in a tomb: you ignore the evidence

[@User81981]

@@Julian0101 it doesn’t get events Paul described about himself wrong, and it doesn’t contradict the actual history, the only weak claims are those ones, which have long been refuted. Channels like testify have demonstrated the reliability of acts and exposed Ehrman’s incompetence in trying to discredit the historicity of acts

[@lazykbys]

I _so_ want to see the Bart vs Bart debate. Or, at the very least, read a transcript. I don't suppose any of his students filmed it with their phone?

[@Ursusarctoshorribilis]

No biblical scholar should ever be allowed to form an argument based solely on what they think "most scholars" think.

[@budnrobots2968]

“Acts is big cap” -Paulogia thumbnail

[@CollinBoSmith]

It would be awesome to see a debate on Acts between Keener and Bart

[@wfemp_4730]

How do you find all those TV/move citations of "reliable source"? Do you use a tool for that?

[@decades5643]

"Euripides’ Bacchae is the richest literary expression of the cult of Dionysus in antiquity. Before examining whether or not Luke knew this tragedy specifically, however, it is worthwhile to consider how familiar he may have been with the cult of Dionysus generally. *The answer, as we shall see, is that the cult of Dionysus would have been very familiar to someone like Luke,* just as it was familiar to most of his contemporaries in the eastern Mediterranean, including many Jews and Christians... By the early Christians, the cult of Dionysus would likely have been regarded with some fascination, as the figures of Jesus and Dionysus and the cults that they spawned shared many similarities. Both gods were believed to have been born of a divine father and a human mother, with suspicion expressed by those who opposed the cults, especially in their own homelands, that this story was somehow a cover-up for the child’s illegitimacy. They were both “dying gods”: they succumbed to a violent death but were then resurrected, having suffered a katabasis into Hades, managing to overcome Hades’ grasp, and then enjoying an anabasis back to earth. Both gods seemed to enjoy practicing divine epiphanies, appearing to and disappearing from their human adherents. The worship of both gods began as private cults with close-knit followers, sometimes meeting in secret or at night, and practicing exclusive initiations (devotees were a mixture of age, gender, and social class-in particular there were many women devotees). Both cults offered salvation to their adherents, including hope for a blessed afterlife, and warned of punishment to those who refused to convert. Wine was a sacred element in religious observances, especially in adherents’ symbolic identification in their gods’ suffering, death, and rebirth; devotees symbolically ate the body and drank the blood of their gods; and they experienced a ritual madness or ecstasy that caused witnesses to think that they were drunk... *As already noted, because of the many close parallels, both thematic and lexical, I favor the view that Luke’s Acts is to a certain degree directly dependent on Euripides’ Bacchae.* The effect of the parallels with Euripides’ Bacchae is to give an apologetic angle to the narrative of Acts. This is Luke’s subtle and artistic way of declaring to his audience that the Christian God is as powerful as-in fact even more powerful than-Dionysus." Steve Reece in "The Formal Education of the Author of Luke-Acts".

[@brucee6524]

20:03 one other philosopher who made an interesting appeal to “history” is Plato in the introduction to the Timaeus. It starts by contending that a factual account is better than using fiction (without really teasing out _why_ this is so) and then places dozens of places where the facts could have been changed that serve to basically remove all confidence in the alleged factual-ness of the account. I picture it as an ancient trolling post before there were internet chats.

[@noahbody9747]

There are many historical novels which use historical people and actual locations, but the story itself is not meant to be taken as historical.

[@MrCyclist]

Always good Paul.

[@kayew5492]

I think Simon and Garfunkel put it best in The Boxer... I am just a poor boy Though my story's seldom told I have squandered my resistance For a pocketful of mumbles Such are promises All lies and jest Still a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest

[@thesuccessfulone]

Acts earns 1 star on the Paulogia rating

[@soilsurvivor]

Both Dr. Keneer and Dr. Erhman seem to be unaware of the "historical fiction" genre. Granted, until fairly recently, these tended to be a sub-genre of romance novels. Hillary Mantel (Wolf Hall trilogy) and Colleen McCollough (Masters of Rome series) marked the shifting of that view. These are novels set in real times, the characters of which are real, historical figures, and the major events (Caesar marching on Rome, e.g.) are generally undisputed facts. Acts, likewise, could have been such a novel, although that does assume a genre that may or may not have existed in early ACE centuries.

[@alanpennie8013]

Gore Vidal was fond of pointing out that our genre of historical fiction had its counterpart in Roman pedagogy, where school children were asked to imagine themselves as Caesar deciding whether to cross The Rubicon.

[@evilgeniusretired]

nice illustrative use of a tomato movie ;)

[@inyobill]

06:21: Soooo, I was thinking along the right track. Comforting

[@trafyknits9222]

The irrelevance of the bible cannot be overstated.

[@joericciardi1773]

Good crisp video

[@Petticca]

I love the appeal to 'ancient historians actually were expected to make shit up' to hand wave away any challenges that the texts are claims of eye witnesses, companions, or deflect questions about how the hell the author(s) could possibly know X. Like, you can trust the nonsense bits that are vital to the religion's canon, those bits are true and historically correct, it's just the bits that expose that obviously these aren't eye witness, or companion testimonies, that we will say are what the authors invented whole cloth, because... Well they were expected to make stuff up, and in these religious texts those are the things, the only things, that are fantastical.

[@melancholymoshpit]

I forgot that they took SUPERSTORE away from us 😭😭😭

[@fepeerreview3150]

20:00 Question for Dr. Ehrman. I haven't read the ancient historians like Plutarch or Pliny to compare. Would you characterize the author of Acts as writing in a manner that is consistent with the way other historians of the time wrote? If so, this might suggest he was seeing what he was writing primarily as history. On the other hand, if he wrote in a way that was not consistent with other historians, then he might have seen himself as being primarily a propagandist, with persuasion being a large part of his purpose. I'm assuming, of course, that the historians wrote in the same general way, making some attempt to present their information as documented fact.

[@alanpennie8013]

It's an interesting question. I think on the whole ancient historians were trying to give an accurate account. But they do sometimes use fiction, particularly in their reconstruction of speeches.

[@jakerz0]

Keener started by selecting the weakest available scholarly rebuttal to Acts’ historicity, and then set up a false dichotomy: either it’s an ancient novel or it’s historically accurate.

[@ta13s93]

Proving that Stan Lee wrote Spiderman comics in no way verifies the existence of Spiderman as depicted in said comics. Lee being deceased doesn't change this. Two thousand years time will not change this.

[@brennojsc]

+1000 aura for this title

[@The0ldg0at]

For me all the scholars discussions about the historicity of the old christian books forget a crucial fact. Those books were artefacts composed for the pursuit of one goal. Creating a single set of religious beliefs and moral laws that legitimated the existence of the Roman Empire. Each and everyone of those books was (re)written on the fabric of political bias. There is not much left of what was written with the opposing political bias.

[@janusatthegate6201]

He needs to explain the actual definition of romance. People now think it's about sex and IT IS NOT. It's about drive and passion, fighting for a goal.

[@sahilhossian8212]

Lore of On the Historicity of the Book of Acts (feat Dr Bart Ehrman) (Craig Keener response) momentum 100

[@bottomthor]

okay but if you're going to say this is how histories were recorded back then to give validity to Acts as history, it would be a much stronger point to use sources that are *not* Acts to back that up

[@theflaggedyoutuberii4311]

17:00 Luke could not tell the future he wouldn't know that for the last 2000, his authorship would have been successful.😂.

[@michaelsnyder3871]

Luke can't even produce a reasonable description of the birthdate of Jesus such that the Lutheran explanation of the contradictions in his story is that Luke is right because he was divinely inspired.

[@theflaggedyoutuberii4311]

@@michaelsnyder3871 [[Citation needed.]]]

[@mastone3609]

"They included embarassing things and that proves it happened..." "Why wouldnt he emphasize that he was a companion of Paul if he was trying to seem like he was one?" The very fact that you guys are using these things as arguments for why they are legitimate proves why they were written as they were.

[@greg5023]

If we can't believe the "this is true because I can make some s**t up" claims then what can we believe?

[@lancetschirhart7676]

@paulogia How do you do the thing with all of the movie clips that use the same word as you? I’ve set multiple world records in competitive memorization and have won the USA memory championship, and I’ve never heard of a person who is able to do something like that from memory without extensive training. Do you have code that searches the transcripts?

[@nsbd90now]

At 9:31 the major question is undoubtedly which Hemsworth brother plays Peter and which Paul when the action-adventure movie comes out??

[@brackencloud]

sent the conference link to my (very christian but very uninformed) friend. he likes my giant study bible that is more study work than actual biblical text.

[@VooshSpokesman]

Love from a VicedRhino and Vaush fan!

[@nedcassley5169]

Every book about the assassination in Dallas on 22 November 1963 includes dozens or hundreds of the same factual assertions. But they also disagree. They can't all be right but it's possible that none is right in all important details.

[@alanhilder1883]

"The bible is true because it includes people that really existed"... I saw a TV show that had Winston Churchill talking to, let us call them "robotic aliens" and included spitfire planes in a space battle. Both Churchill and spitfires existed so this show must have been true.

[@DavidSmith-vr1nb]

I know the late Terry Nation and his estate have a reputation for being litigious, but I don't think they'll go after anyone for using "Dalek" casually in YT comments.

[@seraphonica]

thank goodness we have this new rule. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure can't be fictional. it agrees far too much with the time periods in which it's set! Be excellent to one another!