PCB vs. point to point wiring

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

Thank you for the inspirational bit at the end. It probably helps more people than you would imagine.

[@ahothabeth]

We do need inspiration now; also try this for inspiration kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqicnoyXgdOhq8k&t=741

[@oliverbeard7912]

I certainly agree here.Many thanks to Paul for continuing to respond to the posted queries.It does help to maintain a sense of normality through this crisis.Every little bit of inspiration goes a long way right now.Best to all.

[@Golddragon214]

Thanks for keeping things going Paul. And thank all your Employees for keeping the company going so we can enjoy quality products.

[@StewartMarkley]

Speaking as someone that has built and repaired many point to point audio, video and RF electronics, I can say that without printed circuit wiring there would be no such thing as personal computers, cellphones, flat screen televisions, and most everything else that we use today. It is superior in many respects to point to point wiring except for truly high voltage circuitry.

[@charlesworton4020]

The only time you would benefit from the extra copper in a wire as opposed to a PCB circuit trace would be when you were transferring power, as opposed to massaging a signal. And all those point to point wires act as both receiving and transmitting antennas, providing the potential for signal degradation. Modern PCBs are often so complex that they involve 4 layers, and all of this is done to shrink the package, get the components as close as possible to each other and minimize the connecting distance. This results in superior performance. I think I would challenge the concept that point to point wiring is superior. Printed circuit boards were a giant leap forward in the electronics industry, and one of the key technologies used to provide a high standard of quality while minimizing cost. >Charlie

[@rdmeenach]

Thank you for continuing these informative and uplifting personal connections with us. It’s not all about your business, you obviously really care about people and it shows.

[@stephenparker4735]

I have just ordered a Reisong Boyuu A10 which has point to point. Extremely reasonably priced tube amp as reviewed by Steve Guttenberg. Fingers crossed it's as good as he raves!

[@dhpbear2]

3:18 - PC boards can be designed to *avoid* those 'tiny thin' traces!

[@QoraxAudio]

A well designed multilayer PCB has both better noise rejection because of small traces and better shielding, because of the ground planes. Good PCB designs also emit less EMI, because of those ground planes and trace patterns; they function similar to distributed element filters.

[@QoraxAudio]

besides, that title: point ot point? I think you made a spelling error there 😜

[@QoraxAudio]

@Fat Rat Meh I've got dyslexia, so I've already got there many days ago 😉

[@QoraxAudio]

@Fat Rat 😆

[@sparkplug964]

There is a company in the UK who make Valve amps all by hand and use point to point wiring, amazing attention to detail, I have there entry level valve amp 20 PP at home 15W per channel and it sound amazing, the company is Icon Audio.

[@thisisnev]

I've got a couple of Sony switch boxes which I use to add more inputs to vintage amps. One's a 50yo SB-300 which is all point-to-point wired (designed for open-reel tape recorders), the other is an SB-V30G which uses a PCB (designed for Playstations). Surprise, surprise - no audible difference!

[@raphaelmeillat8527]

What a great ending full of empathy and kindness

[@BTom16]

There are oscilloscopes that operate deep into the gigahertz range that use circuit boards for all of the analog side of the signal processing. They try to keep the analog signal path as short as possible. Circuit boards are excellent for that. They also isolate the analog from digital portions of the board with gaps cut in the boards to keep electron migration down. There is nothing inherently wrong with circuit boards. In fact, good analog design on a board will perform more reliably than a bunch of wires that are loomed by hand.

[@circuitsandcigars1278]

Rhode and Schwartz makes some fine scopes. I got a demo and saw $21,000 for a price and knew it was way above my pay grade

[@MrJohnadamsgilmour]

But unfortunately it still won’t sound better with PCB

[@BTom16]

@@MrJohnadamsgilmour for sure. Not better. Just not necessarily bad.

[@volpedo2000]

Paul. I have to say I prefer this medium close-up shot to the usual long shot you use on your daily videos. It feels more intimate. The lighting is better too. Another silver lining to a lockdown. At least to me.

[@johnsweda2999]

Depends what you mean by big wire is not a beneficial property if it's not needed in it's application, thinner wire has better noise rejection. More important is the quality of the wire the material

[@wilcalint]

Paul...it’s extremely important you keep making these videos. Keep’em coming. Please In all due respect Paul’s a little out of his lane on this one. The transition to PCB occurred decades and decades ago. So you gotta believe that any shortcomings that PCBs had have long since been identified and fixed. If that makes sense. It really becomes how much are you willing to pay for your PCB and the components on it. PS Audio supplies a Consumer Grade product and has to be sensitive to parts costs. Does anyone remember the Zenith TV Commercials with the “Hand Crafted Quality” tag line? Zenith had a production line in Chicago building those Point-to-Point “Hand Crafted Quality” TV sets. Except in very special Point-to-Point construction those types of consumer grade circuits would never ever pass a vibration test. An interesting research is to find a aviation grade radio from WW2. It’ll show you how to build a very tough Point-to-Point circuit.

[@antiWhiteism777]

@paulmcgowanpsaudio --- What about the PtP amps made by Rogers High Fidelity?

[@spacemissing]

Technically, an integrated circuit's internal connections are all point-to-point.

[@oysteinsoreide4323]

You could say that about a PCB too.

[@oysteinsoreide4323]

Point to point is in the definition Paul is talking about is single wires for each connection between components.

[@ilovecops6255]

He videos he talkd for POINT TO PONT WIRENGS. Its what they haves for Dr Z amps. There vidoes titles Dr. Z Guitar Amplifiers - How They're Made it start at 3 minu 50 secod shoing a guy point to pont wirng. THNAK YOU!

[@andydelle4509]

IC's are made by depositing and etching metals on a substrate. This is more analogous to a PC board fabrication in that the component interconnections are a process of etching. Now the wires that sometimes come off the substrate and out to the pins are more like point to point but actually that is an obsolete process in modern chip designs due to cost and speed. Even those tiny wires have significant inductance at today's chip speeds. Most large BGA chips have the connections as part of the etched substrate.

[@graxjpg]

Technically according to this logic, all electrical connections are point to point.

[@jackstraw157]

My Primaluna Premium Dialogue HP integrated amp is point to point wiring. Sounds amazing!

[@stevefick3919]

Love to see you do a live Q and A! I'm sure you could pull it off, Paul. If Scotty Kilmer can do it, you can!

[@zoltangz]

Hi Paul ! It's nice to see you up close and personal! ;)

[@jamoyme4475]

Soon It will be better. Thank you paul

[@clivemetcalfe2304]

Wired amps are better for musicians who travel and use there amps in open air scenarios and store them in garages and warehouses. The high voltage (anode) circuits can be compromised when subjected to condensation. When I was a roadie for a band many years ago, our keyboard player loved the sound using a Radford Hi Fi valve/tube amp. This had PCB mounted tubes/valves. We had quite a spectacular fire on stage one night due to the anode voltage tracking due to condensation. I don't know if conformal coating would have helped to stop this.

[@PP-nb3cg]

FYI Zoom is not secure. The UK newspaper The Guardian posted an article calling it malware. Nice video though.

[@HiFiInsider]

skilled labor cost a lot to do point-to-point wiring in the U.S.

[@darkwinter6028]

Depends on what the trace is actually carrying.... digital signals don’t care. High impedance analog signals (like the input to an op-amp) also doesn’t care all that much about the amount of copper; but capacitance does matter. Power - be it from a power supply or the current drive stage of an amplifier - cares a lot about the amount of copper: more is better; but there is a point of diminishing returns. The other thing about PCBs is that they can be made essentially identical from one unit to the next; but trying to actually manufacture that with point to point wiring would be... challenging.

[@wilcalint]

>Depends on what the trace is actually carrying.... There’s a lot to that. It ends up being a cost factor. No one anymore lays out PCBs manually. It’s all done by computer. The programs laying out the traces can be programmed in such a way as to isolate one trace from another. The biggest factor, IMO, would be how many layers a PCB is allowed to have, the separation of one trace from another and the size of the PCB. PCBs are better then Point-to-Point. All Stop. But at what cost?

[@darkwinter6028]

Bill Kenney - well... sorta. Sometimes the autorouter is used; sometimes it’s not. I don’t use an autorouter, myself, just because I like having more control over where the traces go; and there are plenty of other engineers who feel the same way... but; there’s also plenty of others who use their autorouter all the time. Cost is definitely a factor; but so is signal integrity; and sometimes you really need the density, repeatability, and impedance control that a PCB provides... I definitely would not want to try and do a DDR4 SDRAM connection with point-to-point wiring! 🤔

[@wilcalint]

@@darkwinter6028 Lost skill...I used to work with a nice lady whos job it was to lay out the traces of a PCB board. I'd give her my circuit schematic and she'd sit at a light table and using black tape on a plastic sheet she'd create the photo sheet master. And she could do that for multilayered boards. Many of the packages were the TI 7400 Series 14-pin packages. Sorry, I'm showing my age.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Audio has moved from point to point wiring to single sided PCBs to multi layered PCBs to simple analog ICs to complex DSPs, DACs and SOCs. The future is digital with most happening on highly integrated circuits for everything except the power amp output. We still need an analog signal to move that voice coil.

[@Darkwhisper441]

Primaluna is point to point.

[@ThinkingBetter]

Drew hardy It’s a retro brand using tubes.

[@RealAnonymousse]

These videos somehow look better than the original ones

[@marcse7en]

Pandemics have happened before. Was the world changed forever back then? I've noticed that everyboy treats each other like Lepers! "Unclean! Unclean!" I was walking on the sidewalk to the store yesterday (an Americanism, although I'm British) and I had a "frog" in my throat. I let out a small cough to clear my throat, and the woman in front of me looked around in terror! A TV personality recently joked that it is more embarrassing to cough, than it is to fart! I thought that was really funny, and absolutely true! 😂😂😂

[@L.Scott_Music]

My guitar tube amp designer friends have come to believe that while point to point does remains superior if one uses a PCB with sufficiently heavy/thick traces the difference can be minimized with significant production cost savings. ANd that difference can be further reduced with small and careful design changes. Cheap mass produced PCBs still suck for audio.

[@jtfoto1]

Live Q&A would be great.

[@MissKK660]

I need tips on point to point for PLCs

[@gordrand]

I can't be the only one wanting to know what albums are on the shelf behind you.

[@manuelreyes1908]

The live ask Paul is a great idea...

[@Helectronics]

Great video!

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Many preamps in the marketplace are point to point.

[@markielinhart]

Brave new world Paul 🥁

[@stefanegger]

not sure on that one, search Amiga Lorraine, they build a whole computer with descrete logic (yes, LS logic chips, but simulating a bigger package custom Chip) just with wires on many many big boards. It was made in 1984, so complex enough to prove that it does work. Of course very prone to failure but possible. Not in a procution scale of course.

[@myplaguesify]

is point to point use in OCL amplifiers?

[@Finn-McCool]

As long as you promise then the world can feel safe.

[@Darkwhisper441]

Point to point cost more to do. = Less profit. That's why they don't do it.

[@jareknowak8712]

Depends on design and scale of production.

[@mtabernig]

there used to be hybrid equipment however they disappear for some reason.

[@oysteinsoreide4323]

I think that the added cost is not worth it.

[@brandonburr4900]

A word of warning on doing a live stream on you tube. You won't believe the amount of people and questions being given all fired at you at once and your head will spin trying to keep up with how fast it all scrolls. So best maybe to have a assistant reading and helping pick questions. Or just just grab them as they scroll by really fast😀 perhaps a live look in on what happen in your zoom meetings without disclosing to much proprietary information on products or just a quick hi and introduction and background from each member and what their working on. Thanks paul!

[@Paulmcgowanpsaudio]

Yikes. Well, I haven't any assistants. This should be interesting to say the least. Thanks for the heads up. I generally jump feet first into these things and see what happens.

[@brandonburr4900]

@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio didn't mean to alarm you. Just a observation based on a fairly recent online chat I saw. Their was something like 3 or 4 thousand that had joined his online session. He still managed but I remember him repeatedly saying how fast all the questions were rolling in. It was also a function of his huge subscriber base as well. I'm sure you will do fine. You will just have pick what ya see scrolling 😀 sorta like fishing. Perhaps you will real in some good ones 😀thanks paul and looking forward to any live chat !

[@andershammer9307]

My Audio Research stuff has some pretty big traces on their circuit boards. I think point to point would be best but most of the best components I heard had circuit boards. But no small traces or surface mount devices. I personally don't like the idea of a micro in a stereo component as they can be noisy.

[@mr.tuckers2848]

P2P wiring is great if you have 1 circuit to build but if you have 10, it will take forever. Better to route the design on PCB and have the board house build them for you. I've been a tech for 25 years and it's great for a young person with young hands and excellent motor skills to do this if you're bored and have much time to kill. At my age I can design the board and have it sent out.

[@neira.francisco]

Dear Paul, may I suggest Jitsi.org as an option to be tested? Hope this helps (or at least useful)

[@ptg01]

Live Q&A ? How about using Facebook ? I've attended a couple of these and they worked out very well. Looking forward to a live chat one day ! Keep up the great work !!! Still trying to save up to get PSAudio gear though... :(

[@allansh828]

Why not use silver traces in PCB?

[@chrisvinicombe9947]

Cost

[@ilovecops6255]

Hand wiring is better fr guitars amps, particulerly with tubus becuase the voltage is far away from other conductrs from the lines ona circits broads. Marshell JCM 900 has a clipping diode in to to make it distort. My frends saie he gaves up on thems and nows useings a gutars processers with transisters. THENk yours Mistre Paul, you are honets and a smart mans. THUMBBES USPS.

[@thisisnev]

You still here?

[@ilovecops6255]

Hello Mine Goods Frends! Is this the articl you were lookin for from teh Lexicon PCM92 - 25 CONTINUOUS CONTROLLERSAll PCM92 soft row parameters can be controlled with single, 7-bit controllers. Each parameter is controlled with the full controller range, regardless of the parameter range. For example, if the controller is at the midpoint of its range (64), the parameter will also be at the midpoint of its range no matter what the actual number.Continuous Controllers range from 0 to 127. If the parameter range is less than 127, then a small controller change might not result in a parameter update. But the entire range of the parameter can still be accurately controlled. In addition, if the actual range of the parameter is greater than 127, MIDI control might be somewhat coarse. This is most noticeable with large delays. When MIDI is enabled, the PCM92 automatically sends MIDI messages through the MIDI Out port for soft row parameters and preset loads whenever those actions are performed via the front panel controls THANK YOU, YOU ARE Min eNWES frends! thumbbss upss!

[@JudgeFredd]

What is your camera ?

[@pchlars5666]

Good to see you. :)

[@irzyxelwj]

It wouldn't be hard to use thicker traces. Same as boards designed for high current nets.

[@finscreenname]

Watching a video series of a guy restoring one of the Apollo mission computers. All point to point. Millions of wires. One wire is broken and the computer don't work. Took him weeks to find it.

[@smil3493]

Very cool idea - - > live show

[@andydelle4509]

Like anything in technology there are no absolutes. Yes in general a PC board can provide much better shielding and impedance control over hand wiring. But you can also have a superb clean and quite point to point wiring job and a poorly design PC board that performs far worse. Also PC boards can cause issues with RF circuits (very rarely in audio) due to the substrate capacitance. Common FR4 and G10 (the classic olive green stuff) for example are not suitable for microwave circuits. Here they often use expensive Teflon PC board stock. And I never liked the bakelite material still used in commodity consumer electronics, that light brown stuff. It's OK electrically but I just don't like it.

[@circuitsandcigars1278]

I worked for a company who made mixed mode circuitry and we used ceramic plates from Coors (the beer company) for the substrate for microwave circuits

[@Gabriel-of-YouTube]

I do see the point!

[@DrJens-pn5qk]

Did I say I like this guy a lot?

[@fabiano7638]

Hi Paul you misspelled the title...

[@hugobloemers4425]

Zoom meeting? "The year is 2022 and Crosley has just released a nock off version of the Stellar phono amp."

[@MrAustrokiwi]

Please do the live "ask Paul"

[@jeff022889]

ON24 has a nice platform for hosting very large meetings or webinars with Q&A. I have no affiliation with them other than participant while at work.

[@alexanderstefanov6474]

Primaluna manages to do it.

[@rainman3269]

Primaluna is all point to point wiring were it can be .... A work of art in HiFi and they don't cost stupid money . Goggle inside photos for a look ... 😉😉😉

[@nicovandyk3856]

Hi Paul! Spelling mistake on the video title 😉

[@craigsummerville8823]

Paul, you can do the Q&A from home with one condition: you have to include your lovely wife so we can ask her questions about you!

[@jareknowak8712]

Imagine making smartphone in point-to-point :)

[@toveryonder1115]

sweet so now "ask paul" is gonna be from random spots in his house?👍👍

[@TheKevinNewsom]

I've noticed a lot of modern guitar amps are having severe QC issues. It seems to be a matter of poor craftsmanship on the PCB. Cheap components and sloppy work = DOOM.

[@behemothinferno]

This question had already been address in a previous video.

[@chimi2169]

show us that new rel sub :)

[@goobisoft4873]

Lord chanka

[@marcse7en]

Ah, good old "Point Ot Point" wiring! You can't beat it! It's tried and tested! It's old fashioned! A bit like proper spelling, and being able to spot a GLARING TYPO??? PMSL 😂😂😂

[@wilcalint]

As I said above try to find a piece of aviation electronics from the WW2 era. Now there's some kinda Point-to-Point wiring. Like a radio out of a B-17.

[@Paulmcgowanpsaudio]

Oops. Thanks for catching that, Clive. Fixed.

[@giannagiavelli5098]

300B single ended triode point to point silver wired. Go big or go home.

[@tristanjones7735]

Just lay out the amp in such a way where the signal path doesn't even need wire to begin with. Its better than using carbon fiber nano tube for wire and its free.

[@Gez492]

Point to point wiring works superbly in relatively simple circuits like Tube Pre Amps and for that matter Power Amps ( I know Paul is not a fan of Tube based power amps but I have heard around a dozen now and only one failed to impress sonically) I totally agree on the miniaturized surface mount components its just not possible. Just take a look inside say the Denafrips Terminator R2R DAC even if it were possible, point to point would make it the size of a small house and an impossible mess. I'm no expert but it does be the question though, why are solid stste Amplifiers so chock full of components. Is it poor design or is it to overcome inherent technical issues???

[@chuckdennhardt1121]

Again Paul you're my f******hero, we all need to learn to be kinder to each and hopefully this will teach us that lesson

[@chuckdennhardt1121]

@Fat Rat but being kinder to other Americans is going to hurt us?. I understand you're f***** China attitude,,, but if we don't come out of this with a different attitude what was it worth?

[@chuckdennhardt1121]

And f*** you for bringing up the coronavirus in this. Point-to-point wiring has a lot to do with this

[@chuckdennhardt1121]

Such a f****** hero you won't even post your own name

[@chuckdennhardt1121]

@Fat Rat listen brother I already said f****** Chinese,, number oneI have no desire to hunt you down, I just get pissed off when people start this s*** on ps audios site. Honestly I just don't understand why you would post this. And if you would like to explain I'd love to listen

[@chuckdennhardt1121]

@Fat Rat not using your real name shows you're complete coward,without your name on it what does it mean ,you're not taking responsibility for what you say.. Donald Trump is the biggest idiot and embarrassment to the United States ever. I honestly do not want to fight with you. What I want it's not have to read this on PS audios website, can you understand that?. And I'm not pissed off ,I'm a normal happy guy. I just want to enjoy my website without people talking about this b*******

[@laurentzduba1298]

99.999% of the vacuum tube gear made in the 1990s being bought to me for servicing are PCB based using military spec silver traces.

[@chrisvinicombe9947]

Fancy stuff

[@QoraxAudio]

Nice! Did it also contain the military PCBs with beryllium oxide? You should lick it, beryllium oxide tastes wonderful, like berries! 😀

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

@PS Audio ditch Zoom unless you want the Chinese knowing more than they already do about your business.

[@DodgyBrothersEngineering]

@Fat Rat It doesn't matter if the Sprout is 100% made in China, it doesn't spy on you.

[@tonycheung1559]

Paul, don’t use zoom. Please use webex or Skype.

[@AmitKumar-kb1]

Beware! Zoom App is not safe for your business.

[@paullazarro531]

Tons of tube gear still uses point to point.

[@wilcalint]

Tradition and makes you feel good

[@andydelle4509]

Well tubes lend themselves to point to point wiring because of the need for sockets. Plenty of tie points. And it's also traditional and we know how many audiophiles love that. But remember that a lot of 1960s consumer electronics was PC board and tube based as well. The draw back I see today are audiophile manufactures that place the power output tubes on PC board mounted sockets. That is a bad idea due to the heat. Dynaco knew that in the 60s with the famous ST35 amp. The power tube sockets were separated from the PC board.

[@wilcalint]

@@andydelle4509 Again, your referring to Consumer grade products. There were some industrial and military grade devices that successfully transitioned to Tubes on PCBs but by that time the world had moved on to Solid State and micro electronics. I suggest you could build First Class all tube audio circuit on PCBs today but the cost would be prohibitive for the consumer market. The new ATSC 3.0 TV transmitters I've seen have gone all Solid State with PCBs. The inside of those I've seen look very much the same as high end Audio Class A/B Amplifiers with PCB's. You'd almost mistake one for the other.

[@andydelle4509]

@@wilcalintI agree power tubes can be done properly with good thermal management including fans. But you often see at audio shows some megabuck amp with a quad of KT88's socket mounted on a 0.62 PC board. Not good! Just the waste heat of the filaments alone is enough to destroy that board in a few years. Yes, modern solid state transmitters are built up in blocks so there isn't really a final power stage. You just have a stack of intermediate power amplifiers combined. So there you can use PC boards as they are not much unlike a high power audio amplifier as you indicated.

[@wilcalint]

@@andydelle4509 Do you remember two things? #1 There used to be, maybe still are, ceramic tube sockets there were designed to be used on PCBs. #2 The Beasts: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klystron Not something that could easly be fitted to a PCB

[@sunnohh]

Handmade point to point is garbage. Also you might want something more secure than zoom for work stuff.....

[@markagnessi4731]

Point to point=more expensive , manufacturers are just lazy and cheap , sorry PS