PEDs, Growth Hormone, and Insulin Tactics | Kurt Havens, Dave Tate's Table Talk

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Welcome Kurt Havens to Dave Tate's Table Talk podcast for the 310th episode.
Kurt Havens, 48, is a fitness coach and father of two with a passion for fitness since age 12. A former athlete, he placed in the top 100 in the Body For Life challenge, which launched his coaching career with EAS Supplements. After a break from the gym for family and career, he returned to fitness in his late 30s, began testosterone therapy, and saw renewed success in competitions.
During the , he noticed the lack of reliable information on steroids and decided to pursue an MD/PhD in endocrinology to educate others. In 2023, he launched a social media presence, rapidly growing his coaching business. He continues to coach, create content, and study endocrinology.
Kurt's IG: /
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[@eliteftsofficial]

Shop the strongest accessories and equipment in the game! www.elitefts.com/ Looking to level up your training? www.elitefts.com/join-the-crew linktr.ee/elitefts to reach us on all platforms

[@Pittsy1089]

Man so blessed to have had this guy as a training partner for 3 months of my life! Great to see his recent success, sky’s the limit!

[@Swolebull89]

Kurt is extremely knowledgeable, glad you got him on the show.

[@andwhat.8785]

😂Dave, those deep nasal breaths remind me of the Colombian Bambam days bro ✌️

[@adamgriff3728]

Don’t know what Colombian bam bam is, but that nasal breathing is terribly annoying to me😂

[@andwhat.8785]

@adamgriff3728 Yep, worse than hearing someone eat! Unless your on the Columbian bambam😆

[@FreshRh1no]

1:59:55 type 1 diabetic here. The reason we bolus before eating is because there is a lag between injecting and the insulin working. Most fast acting insulins start working after 15-20 minutes and peaks at 90 minutes. If you were to eat your ice cresm(full of super fast acting carbs) you would skyrocket your blood glucose in the 10 minutes you spend eating your ice cream and then you’ll have to get that high blood sugar down which is way harder because when your blood glucose is super high you are way less(like 2-5 times) sensitive to insulin. So the dad did everything right with bolusing. If she didn’t finish her ice cream it would not have been the end of the world. If she would’ve drank a sugary drink(carbs accounted for) 30 minutes or so later

[@Daniel.Patrick.Walsh88]

Great conversation. Needs to be had for younger ones to at least have no reason to not learn. This conversation can't ever end. It's such a lucky time to learn. ❤

[@joshlugo3839]

Kurt is the Goat in this field!

[@peterhansson2634]

So glad Kurt talked a little bit about sodium. Since I started to utilize no extra sodium, I feel a difference to the better.

[@shad234]

Was about time we had some real gear talk , great pocast Kurt

[@Jakeandbakex]

Kurt, since your insulin response is best at bedtime is it a good idea to carb up at night to shuttle carbs into the muscle overnight or avoid carbs at that time

[@FreshRh1no]

How about you try it for some time and see if you like it? Only way to know.

[@Jakeandbakex]

@@FreshRh1no because I’m looking for a short cut by asking the professional.. why waste my time when I can ask him

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

​@@JakeandbakexBest move is to have 20 questions and book a consult with various guys

[@ryanb5780]

They aren’t going anywhere while you sleep. All you’re gonna do it raise your blood glucose and go to sleep like that. If you are an AM lifter, it could be beneficial.

[@Jakeandbakex]

@@ryanb5780 I lift after my first meal that’s why I thought it could be smart to carb up at night. I still hit my carbs in the am but to load on glycogen is what I’m aiming for

[@negativefx83]

Boom - another awesome guest - Kurt is amazing.

[@MegaShiney99]

I love kurt so much

[@MichaelBierly]

I really enjoyed this episode! Thanks for the great content Dave!! You guys covered a lot but I hope you'll have Kurt back in the not too distant future.

[@cubencis]

Kurt is a new favorite. Just met him so Olympia, very nice guy. But also a wealth of knowledge and great communicator

[@bartosztrz451]

Especially great episode, thank you both:)

[@LeeDaHitman]

I like Kurt I watch him regularly

[@BennyParcher]

Yes kurt havens is a badass! Puts anyone else youve had on here in the dust

[@mitasuomipolttaatanaan842]

Elite podcast should be awarded with Oscar!

[@Han.Ki-beom]

Great podcast! Kurt is the best 🙌

[@jack-k6z7n]

WRONG

[@MegaShiney99]

@@jack-k6z7nyou are rather annoying

[@MultiTsbaby]

@@jack-k6z7n lol

[@Mikaeel84]

Kurt Havens: You can only go up to a certain point before things fail *Chase Irons entere the chat

[@DomSornberger]

Huge fan of Kurt. He shares so much valuable knowledge and information! Awesome episode!

[@ericolmos7816]

Someone please help Dave to stop sniffing and breathing so heavy into the mic!!! Good podcast though lol

[@MultiTsbaby]

Hahaha i don't know why but i like it

[@Himynameis_nk]

It actually made me have to cut this short it’s so fucking irritating

[@adamgriff3728]

I really liked Kurt until I saw him wear that Yankees hat, now I have to dismiss everything I’ve heard him say.

[@musclemedicine_M.D]

Never heard of “blue books”. 2wks of studying & take the Test??? Haha spoken just like true newbie BBer - “I could just take steroids a be a pro but I don’t want to..” same kind of thinking but when you ACTUALLY DO IT & break records it’s a very different thing.

[@afterdark6822]

120 mg of test cyp boosted me to 872 ng/dL from 259 ng/dL. Estradiol 67.8 pg/dL from 13.6 pg/dL. I am now running 140 mg. No clue on the levels yet.

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

20mg a day method?

[@afterdark6822]

@@JoshuaKevinPerry 120 mg was 60 mg 2x a week. 140 mg 46.66 mg 3x a week but I ended up dosing it at 48mg for 144mg per week.

[@SLHendricks]

Kurt is the man. I also like Todd a lot as well. The primo vs masteron debate is interesting. For Todd, mast did not alter his estrogen, hence he feels that it's not a reducer of Estrogen. That seems to be a minority opinion and he may very well be an outlier in that regard.

[@markwhatling4565]

Brilliant podcast 👏

[@Mikaeel84]

This video needs timestamps

[@MrRandomuser99999]

Great guest!

[@PhysiologyForNurses]

Could LVH or cardiomegaly could also be due to thyroid and clenbuterol use on top of the acromegalic effects of growth hormone and increased BMI? This is obviously speculation and a true question for conversation sake. Also some bodybuilding have obvious acromegalic signs like mandibular and frontal bone growth, macroglossia in some and hand/foot growth. Also the time on GH contributing to the heart growth.

[@peterhansson2634]

@@PhysiologyForNurses longterm use of clen is actually linked to LVH. The more things added the more impact.

[@2RBeast]

Majority of athletes who play sports or anything at the highest level do have LVH. It’s basically being an athlete due to the environment and training. That’s why regular people who don’t train don’t have them.

[@2RBeast]

In the context of bodybuilding.. yes a lot of things can make it worse, but it’s not like it’s life threating tbh. But it’s very harmless, if anything stuff like increased blood pressure from drugs would be mroe of a concern than lvh

[@PhysiologyForNurses]

That makes sense for sure. I always think a bodybuilder wouldn’t have an “athletic heart” unless they are actually do significant cardio. I know some count steps as cardio which is not cardio. Maybe weightlifting could lead to some LVH? I haven’t looked at any studies.

[@adamgriff3728]

Dave, have the wife shave that neck hair on the back brotha

[@doctorvpc]

Please can you allow subtitles ?

[@MUST-TRT]

Kurt knows pharmacology really well. He can accurately recite the physio properties of substances affecting the body very specifically with the molecular structure of a given compound. This has been done must prominently (though least academically and also least precisely) by William Lewllyn in his famous "Anabolic Guidebooks." At least that was a start back in the 1990s for dudes like me that didn't mind hours of digging for minimally applicable BB gear info(no internet to do research through med journals, Def no social media to watch). I admire what Kurt represents - a modem day juicebag that has the brains, curiosity and drive to go after an MD level education for the purpose of strategic and research based physique enhancement. That's the route that will end up directly or indirectly helping our kind to obtain better results faster, and more importantly - I believe it will inadvertently either save some lives, extend some lives, or both. 🙏

[@chrisd5774]

Get broderick chavez on

[@kban77]

I would like to see more mechanistic studies on direct cardio effects of long term anabolic use. Most drugs have pretty mild side effects, however, anabolics and chemotherapy have huge side effects. They also have huge general effects. I doubt they get off scott free.

[@AdrianButler86]

Through my research of listening to lots of podcasts and reading I would say one's best defense against negative cardiovascular effects would be to take your aerobic fitness serious. The more aerobically fit that system is via doing your cardio the more efficient and better functioning the heart, lungs and vascular system will be. I have strong reason to believe doing that also counteracts alot of issues due to supposed hi estrogen and High aromatizers. As I'm sure u know, the cardiovascular training also works wonders for getting n keeping lipid parameters and triglycerides in good ranges. Aerobic training in bodybuilding is highly underestimated. Only once u start doing it daily and make It a priority to lil by lil improve it will one see and understand what I am talking about. It has done wonders for me. Also you will realize u don't need as much AAS/PEDs to get great results looks wise and strength wise. The human body becomes so much more effective and effecient and utilizing your food, supps,drugs, etc becuz the metabolism and the mitochondria are becoming a well oiled machine. It fantastic so please people due your aerobic work. I switch it up, fast walks on full incline, stair stepper machine, air bike(push n pull with arms and pedal with legs) etc.. or some times I throw in higher reps sets of all basic exercises with very short rest between. That's done in the aerobic work not really the strength workout session but u can do it as part of warm up for full body. Like 15 reps pull downs, rows, chest press, over head press, upright row, dips, walking lunges, etc. U get point. Hi rep calisthenics is excellent for this. Work at a pace where u can maybe hold conversation on a phone call but rather not cuz it's a bit challenging. That's the best zone. DO NOT WORK TO FAILURE on sets. If u feel burn n it hurts u ruining it. It must be continuously sustainable just like endurance type work in real world is done. Find and work just under that pace where the burn and fatigue will stop u or where it noticeably qill slow ur speed n drop ur power output. Find it and stay there. Over time u will see urself get quicker with more power n less lactic acid build up but yet u r still working in that zone n pace just under muscle fatigue. It's amazing

[@jack-k6z7n]

I TOOK SOME DHEA AND IT JUST CAUSED ME TO PISS ALOT SO ANNOYING

[@chrisbell8418]

Dirty Dieting was Dan’s newsletter.

[@jennysiepka9900]

Agree that gen pop will continue to get fatter

[@Dave_Bee]

So if you need to come down in gear for periods to reset homeostasis, there’s something to be said about androgen receptors needing to reset. I know the science doesn’t say so but anecdotal evidence seems to suggest it

[@nickps2251]

The science does say so

[@Dave_Bee]

@@nickps2251 guess it depends how you search it right ? These days you can find research to back any theory

[@krelrykobisnos]

BUBBLEGUTS abnd you die Hormone, and Insulin deadly

[@MrCarstennielsen]

1:24:50

[@pin75us1]

You should get Emeric Delczeg on the podcast. He has a trt protocol of 10 mg a day with good results.

[@anthonykiernan8339]

This guy is really intelligent but feel he needs to be open minded to others perspectives ,he doesn't know everything but kinda feel like he thinks he does!!! Todd Lee is also very intelligent but Kurt feels his beliefs are right and Todd doesn't know wtf he's talking about according to Kurt!!

[@theeman2424]

Kurt is full of himself

[@bryanscruggs7566]

Todd Lee is way more ignorant than Kurt and says some insane shit.

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

​@@bryanscruggs7566Like what?

[@ItaMuscle]

Todd is a Fraud..... you can't give him 1 cent...

[@ItaMuscle]

@@JoshuaKevinPerry everything? Bulk on MASTERON and you will see hahahahaha

[@Himynameis_nk]

Please sort your breathing out it makes this whole episode incredibly annoying. Really wanted to hear what the guest had to say

[@LouCondon-j1v]

95% of Docs don't know anything about steroids and NOTHING about GH. Even when they put you on a TRT dosage they don't want your % to go even close to 700 and above. Like I told my Doc my Grandchild has a higher level than 300. LOL I'm 65 and took my fair share of meds except GH, too exp. for me in the 90's Now the Govt. tells the Doctors what is acceptable as far as pain meds go, shit everybody that has lifted heavy for years has joint problems and needs pain meds. They tell you to take this anti inflammatory crap that by itself doesn't do a thing for you. Then made me want to hurt people but not Anadrol. Go figure. Now Test Aqueous water based everyday before a Power meet helped a lot for me.

[@kban77]

It probably ian’t safe to take any exogenous anabolics

[@wread1982]

@@kban77 my neighbor had a heart attack at 44 and he never took roids, he had a quadruple bypass

[@siciliancannoliandanespres6021]

This dude runs 3g of gear plus, eats 1000g of carbs a day and is like 180lbs 😂. And has never been in good shape if you look at his stage pics yet acts like he knows everything.

[@anthonykiernan8339]

Facts 💯 lmfao 😂😂😂😂

[@E27043]

He's way over 180lbs tf you talking about

[@cuckoldingstrengthandfitne9473]

He does look like a manlet though 5'0 5'2 feet tall

[@BigThor94]

Has nothing to do with knowledge. If you barely grow on 1000g carbs regardless of gear, you obv have shit genetics for getting big

[@NotNatty22]

He still provides valuable, free info to tons of people online. Nothing wrong with that. Also I believe he is in the 200's now and very lean.

[@ChadCilli]

This is cool and all, but I really miss when table talk used to be about training instead of drugs.

[@DhruvBalix]

Shut up moron

[@glagav]

36:30 he claims that estrogen is not cardioprotective because men who are admitted to the hospital for cardiac events have high estrogen. Apart from the numerous problems with that statement; including sourcing and bias, he doesn't mention any comorbidities that would account for both the heart attack and high estrogen levels i.e. obesity. This statement could be harmful since it is very general, out of context, and directed towards AAS users. There are no healthy non-obese men who have to worry about high estrogen levels effecting their heart, there are however many functionally obese bodybuilders who have to worry about artificially tanked estrogen levels causing arteriosclerosis. There is also a logical flaw in that statement because it broadens the scope. Saying that estrogen is cardioprotective in the context of AAS users can't be argued against with data from a general population.

[@bryanscruggs7566]

He never said that, he said excessive estrogen is not cardio protective.

[@MegaShiney99]

He said excessive dear

[@glagav]

Listening comprehension guys? He literally says: "It is not necessarily cardioprotective in men. Most men that go in for a heart attack if you pull labs they have high estrogen."

[@jparks6544]

Kurt claims to know and be an expert at PEDs. But everything he says is just parroting the bro-science. He does not truly understand the topic and how to use them properly.

[@mattmonie6225]

Next time edit out the noes sniffs

[@riggs9688]

Why is HGH so expensive?

[@TexasSean]

1. You’re poor 2. GH isn’t expensive it’s .80-$1 an IU.

[@riggs9688]

@@TexasSean I’m talking about pharmaceutical grade GH that you get at Walgreens or CVS, not UGL. Exactly what Dave talked about in the interview. But thanks for your educated reply.

[@TexasSean]

@@riggs9688 if you’re poor just say that. 191 is 191 everyone takes UGL GH.

[@CameronPool-v3n]

@@riggs9688you can get ugl hgh with mass spec testing to show purity and dimer. So equivalent to pharma grade. I usually pick up 280 iu for $230. And I’ve ran Genotropin and serostim. I’ve found minimal difference between the ugl I get and pharma.

[@gif24gt60]

Is real jintropin good and still on the market?

[@jack-k6z7n]

KURT IS JUST LIKE DAVE FROM RX A WANNABE DOCTOR

[@nickadz5490]

Kurt looks different here

[@JoshuaKevinPerry]

Anadrol

[@jack-k6z7n]

THE ONLY REAL WAY TO COACH IS IN PERSON TO LOOK AT THEM. ONLINE COACHING DOES NOT WORK

[@jack-k6z7n]

WRONG JOE ROGGAN HAS BEEN ON TRT FOR THE PAST 17 YEARS ITS NOT NEW KURT

[@jack-k6z7n]

400MG IS NOT TRT PAL IF YOUR LEVEL IS OVER 800 LEVEL U R ON THE JUICE

[@giovannigiorgio8664]

Wrong you weirdo. Go take ur meds and stop screaming nonsense

[@BlakeSlacks]

100mg isn’t TRT? Lol okay. A level in range isn’t optimal. What?

[@jack-k6z7n]

TRT IS 150 TO 200 MAYBE 250 THATS IT

[@nickps2251]

He runs 600mg year round what do you expect lol

[@BlakeSlacks]

@@jack-k6z7n so if 100mg gives someone 850ng/dL. That’s not TrT?