Penal Substitution and the Orthodox Church

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Thanks so much for watching.

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

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[@Saintt_abe]

Can you please make a video explaining how baptism fits into this! Even just a reply to my comment is fine if you don’t have time for a full video! God bless 🙏🏼☦️

[@telosbound]

Incredibly well edited and presented. Great job Serro. More like this

[@LizzieKhan-g5m]

Hi there Seraphim, I so enjoyed your interviews on Gospel Simplicity and am here for more! Thank you for your work! Just one piece of feedback: please consider reposting this video minus the backing music. I found it distracting. I want to focus on the ideas! Thank you in advance. Blessings 🤗

[@justaway29]

Epic presentation and giving understanding as always! Keep it up! ❤

[@brendanmassie9586]

Wow this is a rich perspective of the incarnation. I grew up Protestant and am having trouble understanding how this is a different understanding compared to the reformed view of penal substitution. Would someone explain that to me?

[@ThreeQuartersCrazed]

I know this is off topic, but what happened to your old icons video? I know that the text is on your blog, but it's nice to have something short to send to people that they could listen to.

[@flinn2856]

👉 "Promosm"

[@KentHartmann]

Wow... Another fantastic, theologically rich presentation. Please keep this up Seraphim. Grace and peace. ☦️

[@jukedbyjerome]

no one connects all the dots in such a smooth way as you do. Keep up the good work, Seraphim.

[@CDC39A]

As a PSA observer, I’d say. The bulk of if not all what you presented is I adhere to. Penal = punishment/penalty for sin Substitution = in our place Atonement = true death and resurrection, Christ made us right before the Father through His blood.

[@Theophoruz]

and, just like how Jesus made us right with God through his blood. We were once made right with God due to the sacrifice of bulls and goats. However, God didn't see this as a sufficient atonement. No amount of blood would make up for the eternal death that would happen to us without it. So, he gave his own life through the blood of the man he incarnated himself into. His blood, being that of a man that is eternally right with God, gave eternal life. He chooses to do this further because of the wine in the Eucharist and his flesh in the bread so that we may have eternal life, in our whole lives. And I can go further. By being conformed to the image of the Son (Corinthians 15:49), we fulfill our duty of being right with God by allowing Christ to live in us by being crucified with him (Galatians 2:20). And we are what we eat, so that's why the eucharist is important 💀 (Additionally, correct me if I have said something wrong)

[@EpistemicAnthony]

Sadly, PSA is not named very well, because Penal Substitutionary Atonement does not mean that Christ merely took a punishment we deserved. Rather, it specifically means that 1. We go to hell and damnation as imposed punishment for crimes we are deemed guilty of, and 2. That Christ was given an imposed punishment from God the Father in our stead. The explanation given here rejects both of these concepts.

[@TheTrueMendoza]

This made my eyes well up with tears. Gods love for us is unfathomable. Thank you for this beautiful presentstion brother. May God continue to use you as an instrument of his boundless love for mankind.

[@kjc8954]

This is exactly what I’ve been looking for.

[@nmoriss]

Tim Patitsas in a recent interview on Protecting the Veil said that the first time he saw Saint (then father) Sarphony, he laughed in his heart and thought "so that's what a real human being looks like" this video explains this so clearly. Amazing work!

[@pepebruh3476]

the editing go brazy. good video

[@mikaelrosing]

really brazy seriously

[@rhedrich3]

Is anthropological trichotomy not an essential tenet of Eastern Orthodoxy (4:45)? If humans share a single human nature like the members of the Trinity (7:15), how is it that we have different wills but Trinity do not? Or do you deny that we have different wills? Do you think Adam and Eve sinned simultaneously and, if not, was the single human nature corrupted at the same time the other first sinned? Where does Scripture speak of all men without exception being raised to *glorified,* physical bodies (7:30)? Romans 8-9 (which you mention) seem to make it clear only the children of God and vessels of glory are prepared for glorification. When you say nature and personhood is ruptured, I assume you don't mean to suggest that you consider the damned are no longer human (9:15). So can you elaborate on the rupture? The habit of life which we live by God's power and operation (9:30) surely can't mean to suggest monoenergism. How is it, do you think, that saints can be assured that they will never choose to forsake God after the final judgment? In these questions above, I'm just seeking clarification. In the next two questions, unless I am misunderstanding you, there are more obvious difficulties in trying to harmonize penal substitution with Eastern Orthodoxy: If you think Jesus tasted the penalty of sin for all men [without exception] (as I think you are intimating you would interpret Hebrews 2 at 9:45), how is it just for the damned to nevertheless experience the same penalty? You mention that in the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve experience alienation "from each other" (9:55ff.). Surely the principal alienation they experience is alienation *from God*! Surely *this* is the death of which God spoke even *prior* to Eve's creation in Genesis 2:17. Since you say Jesus participates in "the deepest experience of our alienation," does that mean you think Jesus likewise experience *this* alienation - alienation from His own Father? If so, how does this cash out?

[@kylepetruzziello3321]

What is your interpretation of the Second Death as it relates to Hell or the Lake of Fire? It would seem that Scripture would suggest that those who die in their sins will be burned up (destroyed) and only those who fall asleep in Christ are resurrected into His life. So wouldn’t this suggest that the idea of Hell as eternal conscious torment in fire is not supported by Scripture?

[@borkdude]

I appreciate the content of this video but I found it a bit hard to follow at times because of the background music.

[@rsandy4077]

Amen to everything said but Romans 3 which talks about the doctrine of atonement was left out.

[@Murica2001]

Great video, would you please recommend a good book on this topic Thank you

[@Giorginho]

Are you planning to make a video about St. Cyril and how his teaching is consistent with the council of Chalcedon?

[@StrugglingProtestant]

I think David Erhan has made some decent videos pertaining this.

[@NavelOrangeGazer]

​@@StrugglingProtestantyeah David has like 10 plus hours on this. Basically a masterclass. The monophysites that doth protest too much are another case of word concept fallacy.

[@Joe-xg1yt]

Hi! Who are the early church fathers? Can anyone name them please?

[@reeckstar6625]

I think we overthink atonement. Jesus took on the consequence of death and defeated it. This is the physical aspect. Further, due to His obedience unto death to defeat death, He made amends for our disobedience. This is the spiritual/relational aspect.

[@andreyconsalter]

I missed the contrast between the two views. The video just ended without getting back to the issue.

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

The point is that this wasn't designed to create a contrast, but simply present a constructive account of Orthodox teaching without reference to Protestantism. Individual Protestants can decide whether what is being described here is their own view. After all, there is massive theological diversity within the Protestant world, and I'm not in the business of *telling* someone they disagree with the Orthodox view. If someone listens to the Orthodox teaching and finds nothing to disagree with, then glory to God.

[@Zangified02]

@@Seraphim-Hamiltonamen

[@wilkesreid]

@@Seraphim-Hamilton I'm currently reading "Doctrines of Grace" by Boice & Ryken to get a better understanding of the core of Reformed Protestant theology and the Scriptural defense for it. Is there a similar book that walks through the core doctrines of Orthodox theology, perhaps in a way intended to clarify how they differ from Reformed theology?

[@freda7961]

This is very well-made! Can we expect the same quality of presentation from your paid courses, with all the visual aids? Thanks.

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

My paid courses are just based on slides+lecture. This video was edited by a professional editor (who isn't me.)

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

I have a sample lecture here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaG0gKWbjJ14es0si=HViPa0QohMxUWYvi

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

PSA works as an analogy or as a piece of grasping after explanation of the Mystery. But as the central frame it becomes monstrous.

[@paulr5246]

If you listen to it on 3/4 speed, he sounds like Mt. Kalistos ware without the Oxford accent.

[@cosminstanescu8534]

Thank you for the video Seraphim !

[@thelimatheou]

Wow - awesome job. Short, sharp & to the point!

[@Chrsi-o5o]

Well done!!!

[@jaredalfred965]

Excellent material. Thanks for posting.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Love the new style! ☦️🔥🔥

[@markroth6232]

So how do you understand the punishment of the dammed soul? Are they going to burn in a real fire and where are they going to live if they are not enjoying the new creation with the redeemed Christian’s?

[@ZachFish-]

This is what I want to know. I lean toward conditional immorality, and think it makes even more sense with this video. I definitely wanna know the EO view thoroughly tho.

[@shiningdiamond5046]

The services for the paschal weeks affirm they go into everlasting torment

[@Aleksandr-Herman]

It's a very interesting subject, but is there a way to listen to it without chanting in the background? I am starting the video over and over being able to follow the thought only to the one third of the video and then I'm losing narration because of the loud chanting in the background. I spent 40 minutes already trying to listen to the end of a 13 minutes video and haven't succeeded yet. It's very frustrating. I don't know how it's even possible to listen to several voices simultaneously some of whom are chanting and some of whom are speaking at approximately the same volume... I guess my brain can't decide what channel of information to follow

[@Aleksandr-Herman]

I guess most of the people don't have this problem of perception that I have, but regardless of how hard I try I'm losing 1/3 of narration just because of the author's decision to add some audio-beautification to the video. @Seraphim Hamilton, your voice is beautiful enough, you don't need to add chanting in the background to make your videos beautiful.

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

Honestly, when some audio is added to the background like this, it generally does improve the performance of the video. I'm not a fan of it either while watching videos, but it seems to work. I can send you the transcript of this video if you email me at [e-mail]. Auto-subtitles are also usually pretty good these days.

[@charleshogg5459]

@Seraphim-Hamilton can I get a transcript of this?

[@charleshogg5459]

Hah! I liked this question, then realised I originally asked it.

[@theosophicalwanderings7696]

LOVED THIS. And I am a die hard Protestant

[@Stephen.D20]

Beautifully done! Thank you!

[@AkiMattiItkonen]

What is lacking here is that there seems to be no forgiveness of sins at play in any step of the orthodox view of Jesus Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection. If not that, what is the source of forgiveness of sins according to orthodox theology? Or is there no need for that when we become in union with the life of Christ? The Bible and there Jesus and the apostles are very clear about the necessity of forgiveness of sins.

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

The penalty for sin is death. Forgiveness means we are pardoned from our penalty. Since we die with Christ and also live with Him, our sins are pardoned as that penalty has been paid in His death, for He alone can repair the breach created in death by the infinite overflow of His life. Forgiveness means that even though we are sinners, we still can walk with God in endless eternities.

[@AkiMattiItkonen]

@@Seraphim-Hamilton Thank you, I thought I was going crazy for a second in my misunderstanding.

[@Oldtimer1972]

Looking forward to this conversation!

[@bjsb6514]

Hello Seraphim, I would appreciate some clarification on when you stated “the relation which binds him eternally as Son to the Father flows into that suffering”. Maybe I just didn’t catch it, but are you saying that the Father actually abandoned the son? Just as the disciples abandoned him?

[@Seraphim-Hamilton]

No, I'm saying that the Son remained utterly bound in love to the Father in the midst of that suffering so that sharing in Christ's suffering facilitates our adoption into His Sonship.

[@bjsb6514]

@@Seraphim-Hamilton oh okay that makes sense. Thank you. You are helping me convert to Orthodoxy, I am attending my first Divine Liturgy tomorrow so thank you for what you do. God bless.

[@unidosenfe]

Greetings. I am of the position of Christus Victor. I dare not totally deny the idea of "penal substitution" although I am quite inclined to view it with a lot of negative prejudice. Now, I'll leave you with an explanation. We could say that when they unjustly accused Christ of violating the law and then unjustly condemned him that he was assuming a guilt that was not his in favor of us to fulfill the penalty of the law. He dies not suffering the eternal wrath of God but suffering punishment at the hands of the executioners and in this way he not only defeats the evil powers but when he resurrects, all those who are in union with him are justified because in Christ the punishment was fulfilled. . Christ did it in the name of his people. What do you think about this?

[@shotinthedark90]

The lynch pin is the point you made in the beginning: all of the legal analogies are meant to map on to natural realities. This is somewhat like C.S. Lewis' portrayal of the atonement in the chronicles of narnia. Many have mistakenly thought that Aslan's sacrifice at the hand of the Witch reflects a ransom view of the atonement. But Aslan is not appeasing the Witch, he is appeasing the "deep magic," which is not a set of laws extrinsically imposed on the world but the invisible reality on which the world is constituted and structured. Nevertheless (and again, this is the important point), Aslan knows the deep magic because he "wrote" it according to his own nature, and so legal analogies are appropriate. God is judge, sin is trespass, Christ propitiates, righteousness is imputed, the guilty justified... all of this points to the deep magic "written" into the very life of the cosmos. Note that to "write" is to carve, shape, fashion, not merely to declare propositionally. Anyway, great video.

[@joelpaddock5199]

I think that "vicarious atonement" is a suitable phrase that's come up in a few places, that covers what's in the Prophets and NT. St Athanasius and some other Church Fathers use a term "anti-psychon" to mean like "life-for-a-life (or for many lives)"

[@TheHeavensAndEarth]

Nice talk. There is no "judgment" without the Incarnation. The passions are twisted by death, those who live according to those twists, will be left with nothing, but to gnash their teeth when Christ extrapolates death from the world.

[@JW_______]

People forget that civil lawcourts (as distinguished from criminal law courts) serve a different purpose than punishment - they are meant to bring about restitution by restoring the injured party to their previous position before the wrongful or negligent action. God's judgement of death against mankind was pronounced in order to restore all of creation to it's previous position of harmony and communion with Him. In sin, man is in emnity with God. In our pride and self-will we position ourselves, like Satan, in opposition to the one who sustains all of the cosmos in its existence and knitted us together in our in-most being. This enmity with God will necessarily bring about our dissolution, like we can imagine being in opposition to your own soul or the atoms in your body would.

[@christopherdavis7069]

Outro ad music is my priest singing !

[@ryrocks9487]

The graphics on your channel are great!

[@Michelle-Marie]

This was great! Thank you!

[@twaho]

Answer: No, its of the devil

[@stonewallcoll]

Bro is killing it

[@josephaggs7791]

Liking the new style

[@adamq8216]

Really good!🙏✝️

[@stuckmannen3876]

Great video and edeting

[@thefaiththatendures]

western theology(roman catholic and protestant) will agree with almost everything you said, but your understanding of the atonement is incomplete. The Bible does not teach that Christ atone for death but for our sins! Hebrews 9:22 says, “Indeed, under the law, almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” Christ himself said: for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:28. So according to holy scripture we were bought by his blood, revelation 5:9-10 adds this: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were slaughtered, and bought people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation, and made them a kingdom and priests to our God". Western theology will propose a more complete theology on soteriology: at the incarnation, Christ deals with original sin; on the cross, he deals with our personal sins(he atones for them); and at the resurrection, he deals with the penalty of our sins(death)

[@andys3035]

The wages of sin is death which is echoed in ‭Hebrews 2:2 "For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward" So sin and it's penalty are inextricably linked. This is also reflected in the Exodus account where the death Angel and the firstborn of Egypt are slain as a result of Pharaoh's disobedience. Those who put the blood of the sacrificed lamb on their door posts are passed over from death. The Orthodox view is not incomplete because we do not deny that our sins were laid upon Christ at the cross, it's rather that we aren't simply judicially declared righteous but that our death with Christ is the means of our healing, restoration and resurrection with Him and thus our human nature being transformed in His likeness.

[@thefaiththatendures]

@@andys3035 revalation 5:9-10 :"you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation" salvation is transactional, christ bought us with his own blood. Concerning inner healing, western theology agree as well. There is nothing there exclusive to eastern orthodoxy

[@andys3035]

@thefaiththatendures ok, so move the goalposts from Orthodoxy lacking to it not being exclusive? The Reformers, like Luther, taught you are snow covered dung. Do you believe that?

[@thernius5786]

The Patristics refer to sacrifice & atonement, but (like you said) it isn't the same as protestant PSA, The term itself was offered through the Protestant Reformation inextricably packaged-in with Sola Fide-- Why, then, use the same term yet tweak the context & definition? Though I am one myself, I do not understand many converts' fixation with PSA -- not the sacrifice & atonement but PSA by name specifically -- & trying to paint it as fully Orthodox by ignoring the term's history.

[@wilkesreid]

Maybe it's out of a desire to gently invite those from a Reformed tradition into an understanding of the contrast. Explicitly using the Reformed terminology helped me click on the video in the first place to find out where the Orthodox church differs on that.

[@thernius5786]

@@wilkesreid Seraphim did it well here, addressing the various angles, so referring to the protestant term made sense in this case. That said, many Orthos online outright say "PSA is fully Orthodox" & Seraphim made a video about a year or so ago that suggests that -- which isn't exactly true when given the full context. My initial comment is about the situation overall.

[@oimss2021]

TLDR no it isn’t

[@zachpatterson434]

Question. What is ontologically different between pre fall eternal life and post Resurrection eternal life in the sense of our partaking in the Divine nature. Do we partake more fully in the eschaton than Adam did in the garden etc. I assume yes, being that the Word became flesh. But how so? It seems that human nature is on a trajectory far higher than pre fall Adam…but how is the “eternal life” aspect different I have thoughts. Curious what yours are.

[@stevendouglas3781]

I’m no expert but I’ve heard it explained that preFall Adam wasn’t immortal in the technical sense, but God’s grace just kept extending his life. If a lion mauled him he would die, if he fell and broke his neck he would die. But inherent in living in paradise is that those things don’t happen. And inherent in Adam’s preFall nature is that he wouldn’t seek those things. Quite unlike the Marvel Comics idea of getting powers and immediately testing them by risking your life. Adam had a perfect way of being that was led by God. Ontologically speaking we need to consider God’s promises. Adam’s sin brought death into the world but it still “existed” as a possibility outlined in God’s commandment. However Jesus’ resurrection defeated death, and the gospel promises that faith in Christ will bring a resurrected body in the eschaton. Death or anything like it will literally not exist in any form. TL;DR Eden - Soft immortality Afterlife - Fully endless life

[@zachpatterson434]

@@stevendouglas3781 This is interesting to think about. Thank you for your reply!

[@stevendouglas3781]

@@zachpatterson434 you’re welcome.