people are WRONG about House of the Dragon S2 EP1

[@mylittlethoughttree]

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[@kirk001]

The actor playing Cheese brought his acting A game to this scene. That flash of realization you noted, plus the way his blade was shaking so hard he needed both hands to steady them brought a sense of humanity to the inhumanity. He's trying to be menacing, yet he realizes what's happening and he's a rat catcher and gambler, and he was willing to help hunt down Aemond, but now he's forcing a mother to choose between her children. He's probably having second thoughts while also realizing Blood would kill him in a heartbeat if he didn't continue.

[@rexibhazoboa7097]

He was more of a coward going for the children when Aemond was still in the castle. They hadn’t checked every room.

[@stineandersen56]

I feel like Helaena's response to this situation, also fits her entire personality. She has never reacted to things in ways that people would consider 'normal'. When Vaemond loses his head, instead of covering her eyes and screaming, she covers her ears and turns away with a look of shock. When faced with horrors, she doesn't scream and cry and bawl her eyes out; she goes into shock. Just like she does when assassins come and cut her son's head off. I also believe Helaena is a dreamer, and she already knew this would happen. It doesn't make it less horrifying, but because she has already 'seen' it before, she can better dissociate and do what she must, so she and her daughter can survive.

[@acephaedramusic9588]

We stan a neurodivergent prophetic Queen😂❤

[@cynicaltheastrocreep4504]

@@acephaedramusic9588 now you've made it cringe lol. reducing her to a monolithic idol rather than the complex character she is, and presenting a feverish infatuation.

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

​@@cynicaltheastrocreep4504You must be sooo popular at parties

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

Something I don't understand is why she didn't do anything to prevent this from happening. If I had visions or dreams like that... I don't know, I would move my children somewhere safer or something? I thought she was going to have a dream, she would try to avoid the outcome, only to fulfill it a la Cersei style. But she was afraid of the rats and yet did nothing about it.

[@anguspate6510]

@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ I feel like her 'dreams' are probably not coherent visions (whether that's because she's still young or just the nature of her gift), if she can only express them as frantic metaphors, the full picture of her visions might not be very lucid. That's at least how I interpreted it since a lot of Targaryans dream like with Visceris, but most of the time they are vague or more defined by an emotion or feeling of foreboding.

[@Daeron03]

An interesting take I took from Helaena’s reaction is the line she says when she gets into Alicent’s room “they killed the boy” I see that as Helaena almost disassociating like it’s too much for her to say they killed jahaerys or her son so she reduces it to “the boy”

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I thought that too, it's a great touch. I also had a split second moment of wondering if it was a reference to the "kill the boy" advice Maester Aemon gives Jon Snow, then I realised that'd make no sense to be referencing it

[@RussellB]

maybe, but you never know what they are dumbing down for TV viewers. (GoT spoiler ahead ) Similar to how Littlefinger says "Your Sister" instead of "Only Cat" before pushing Lysa out the moon door

[@RealLifeIronMan]

It is a very realistic reaction. Especially since Helena is implied to be on the autism spectrum, or at least the way television portrays people on the spectrum. She expresses her grief in a different way. Even if she isn't, loss like that can send people into shock and sometimes dissociate. That said, the scene wasn't as much of a gut punch as I expected. Sometimes, realism isn't as impactful.

[@dazanii]

Especially since that’s literally what they said. They wanted her to point out the boy

[@billsmafia2473]

@@RealLifeIronManthe show isn’t portraying Helena as autistic, they’re portraying her as some what clairvoyant as she can sense future events that are coming

[@mil_enrama]

I think critics missed the actress's facial and physical acting. No she didn't scream, but the way she stumbled almost unconsciously to Jaehera's crib, her eyes darting here and there, the uncomposed look on her face, all of that showed that Helaena was in a waking nightmare.

[@kelsin8854]

Exactly! I’m surprised how many people are so unobservant. The terror was written all over her face, body language, and tone of voice.

[@Moeller750]

Totally agree! Haelena's actress has stood out to me since she took the role in season 1. Her portrayal is absolutely brilliant and I think we will get a lot more of Haelena's deep psychology during this season

[@mehlover]

Didn't realize people complained how Haelena reacted in this episode. Not every reaction will always be screaming. Being silent and horrifically shocked conveys the urgency just as well. The actress did an amazing job! Wonder if Sir Criston and Alicent will get any from this consequences

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

Based on the interviews I've seen, both Criston and Alicent will feel guilty for what happened, with Criston blaming himself for not being there, present, taking care of them.

[@monicad99]

@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ he’s always f-ing someone and then regretting it.

[@Alex-qr8nw]

I agree, especially with it seeming like Helaena has some level of Autism

[@e.k.7462]

Maybe that would really be the last time they fuck 😂

[@geordiejaygaming2878]

i think shes a little autistic too, shes very removed from social norms compared to other characters

[@james_sabin]

I think the silence makes more sense for here. We saw last season that when she saw someone died in front of her, she blocked her ears and regressed in herself

[@gemwilliams6486]

As an autistic person, I always saw Halaena as autistic too and her reaction is exactly how someone who is autistic would respond to a situation like that. Being borderline nonverbal and dissociated, makes perfect sense. People are expecting her to react “normally” but it’s obvious to anyone with eyes that she is not “normal”.

[@dazanii]

I related to her. I had a lot of traumatic things happen as a child t hat never were addressed, because I become nonverbal and dissociate. Adults would say they didn’t know I was affected because it “didn’t seem to a affect” me, but they weren’t looking hard enough, they expect crying and blubbering and if you don’t act like that, they say you’re fine. If you force the crying though, they say you’re overreacting. You can’t win. I don’t think any way they would have portrayed this would have made everyone happy because so many people have so little respect for understanding survivors of trauma.

[@BunnyBoyMcGill]

Also recall how she reacted when Daemon beheaded the Valarion Uncle last season and even the coronation scene in the dragon pit. She never reacts in a "screaming hysterical" way. She always adverts her eyes or nonverbally stim when there's excessive violence. People who want her wailing and shit are morons who think overacting always means good acting. When Helanas actor plays her very well and very consistently.

[@lukesguywalker]

Feel you as someone also on the spectrum! I found her reaction heartbreaking because I've been there. When something like this occurs it feels like everything is just happening too much, and all at once. I was proud of her for being able to get Jahaera out of there.

[@jo0rd73]

I agree, I really felt seen with her reaction and I am honestly kind of perplexed at how little people understand trauma responses ? Like I thought it was common knowledge that some people dissociate and are unable to actually leave any emotion out and instead it rots them from the inside out until they (hopefully) deal with it all externally…..

[@carolinapina8944]

Same here. I loved the whole sequence precisely because it felt like a dissociative episode, which a found to be pretty realistic.

[@Alexander-kc8oq]

After skimming social media I´ve come to the conclusion that a lot of people simply hate subtelty and or restraint (and an uncomfortable number of people that seem dissapointed in not seeing the decapitation of a child). They cant seem to accept that they are perfectly valid ways of writing in this context simply because the red wedding was the opposite of subtle restrained. .

[@glacialimpala]

And the justification was 'Show isn't supposed to be realistic, I want my comic book villains' oh sure, let make it all unbelievable so no one can relate to it.

[@Hero_Of_Old]

Most people are dumb. 2020 showed me that

[@sortofrican]

It honestly makes me sick seeing anyone try to say that it needed to be more brutal. Like yeah I'm here to watch a tragic and realisticly horrifying show, but we don't need to see every gory detail. When Roberts bastards were murdered we didn't see anything over the top brutal and no one complained about that

[@glacialimpala]

@@Hero_Of_Old Hah, true. I hope the show doesn't get cancelled due to stupid fans losing interest though.

[@asimhussain8716]

Restraint is fine. There is no subtly here though lol

[@mmqpn]

I haven't read the book but had watched some videos about B&C before hotd came out. This scene still felt gut-wenching to me, though. Just the sound of them decapitating the boy without dramatic threatening or screaming was as effective: Less is more. And I loved how Helaena's reaction was depicted on the show. It feels so realistic knowing how people might react to traumatizing events irl. They'd leave their body, become numb, and do everything just to survive...just as she did (save 2 people). And guilt will come and haunt her later.

[@JReece3000]

Helaena knew Aemond would have to lose an eye to get a dragon, she knew Rhaenys would burst through the floor with her dragon, she probably always knew she was going to lose that child. The way she said “they killed the boy” was almost as if she expected it. Like, “So it finally happened.”

[@strangetenderness]

to me, her reaction and her whispering “no…” as it was happening seemed to me that she was realizing her vision and fear of the rats was coming true, and realizing that it wasn’t a vision this time but it was really happening and it was just flight or fight, and she retreated to a child and ran to her mother for safety, and by her saying “they killed the boy” instead of “they killed jaherys” was her dissociating and removing herself from the traumatic experience 😭😭😭😭

[@f.a.l.o.4174]

Finally someone has the emotional intelligence to understand Helaena's reaction

[@holysecret2]

You sound like you have seen a majority of people not understanding her reaction, that surprises me. Pretty much all reviewers and discussion channels that I like to watch understood that she is either autistic or otherwise emotionally stunted even as of season 1.

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

Plenty of people understood it, so I don't know what you mean. You make it sound as if he's the only one who got it, when that's not the case.

[@wisdommanari6701]

People can still say that they didn't enjoy it. So what's the deal even if you "get it" 🙄

[@f.a.l.o.4174]

@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ I didn't mean everyone. That was a mistake on my part. But I have seen many Videos of people complaining about a lack of emotion and akward acting. When I said someone I actually meant a content creator.

[@f.a.l.o.4174]

@@wisdommanari6701 I didn't mean that people have to like the scene or agree with the decisions of the showrunners. Only meant that people who say Helaena's reaction was unrealistic are wrong because it was very true to her character

[@CaitlinCostello]

I think it says a lot that Helana went straight to her mother's room. Not the Kings guard or the king. Especially when we see Alicent not really caring too much about her in S1

[@themorganrileyshow5520]

Considering that Helaena has the dragon dreams, she probably realised what they were there for and that her dreams were true and she is powerless to stop them. She is the Queen and she is left unguarded, unprotected and alone at a time of war, she has tried to warn people over and over about her dreams and no one has listened to her. In that moment she freezes, terrified that instead of giving her power like it gave Daenys the Dreamer, her dreams have left her alienated, lonely, looked down at and ridiculed. There are people to listen to Aegon, people to protect her mother and people with power like Otto and Aemond. Helaena has a dragon, she has those dreams and she has the blood, but when it comes to it, Helaena is a neglected and isolated little girl, forced into a marriage she hates with her brother who openly berates her visions to her face, in front of their staff, she has two children with him who she is left to raise while her husband goes off to drink and assault other women. Helaena is powerless and this scene is perfect because it shows her powerlessness in it's entirety. Helaena's story in the show is a tragedy, she can see the events coming and can't stop them.

[@madyjules]

that last sentence in your comment is an insightful gut punch… to have the ability to truly see all the horror that’s coming but to be totally unable to stop it oof, that hits hard

[@Savage-nv6wr]

Yeah that doesn't make any sense , she's still the Queen , if she demands something from anyone other than the King or the Hand , they will do it ! Either you are saying she's too dumb to interpret her own dreams , or she's too spineless to demand something from anyone despite her powerfull position !

[@thevikingbear2343]

You are so right in that Aegon is now in the exact same position as Episode 1 Viserys. One son dead, only one daughter remaining, and a brother who is better at everything than himself becoming the defacto heir instead of the girl because tradition. In principle Aegon should name Aemond as heir otherwise it would be soo hypocritical if his daughter is heir.

[@SuperARCANGEL0]

It's not hypocritical because Aegon doesn't have a younger son

[@islasullivan3463]

Only hypocritical if he names her heir when he has another son. Bc in Westeros it’s male-preference primogeniture, meaning if there are no sons then a daughter can be the heir.

[@jamiemohan2049]

Maelys could be born on the show, who knows.

[@TaeSunWoo]

I feel like it’ll either perfectly parallel or this is why Maelor’s born in the true timeline compared to the books

[@forgotmyun]

I personally LOVED the scene at the wall. The way Jace and Cregan both verbally danced their words around their real motives, talking about the same prophecy while not talking about it. It’s wonderfully vague and so clear at the same time.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Yeah that's fair. I think I just mainly didn't buy Cregan's delivery

[@forgotmyun]

@@mylittlethoughttree fair! Though looking at the rest of the actors who have brought phenomenal performances, Im hoping this was intentional😭😭

[@TrissTess]

Did they talk about the same prophecies? We don't know yet. It could be either one...

[@officialtbhoops]

@@mylittlethoughttree me neither, nor his obviously fake wig and hairline. Didn’t feel like an actual person.

[@MissChambersxo]

I honestly think the quiet reaction sells the scene more considering the direction they went in and how Helaena has been characterised. It really sold how she just couldn’t believe what was happening. The look of sheer panic before she points is awesome

[@chrisr4023]

Cregan Stark Lecturing the young prince about Duty had a hidden meaning. It is a way of saying, "You are next in line for a King, if we are to support your (mother's) claim, you have to do better. We have sacrificed alot to keep the realm safe. We take our duties seriously. You (and your house) have to do better and be a dutiful King." He is criticizing house Targaryen in a subtle and polite way.

[@sailorsapphic4642]

THANK YOU! helaena's reaction struck a huge chord with me because that's exactly how i reacted during my major traumatic event. i went silent as everything happaned and didn't speak or scream or cry for three days. her reaction is very realistic, especially as a possibly autistic coded character. i'm autistic and relate heavily to much of her behavior, and the tragedy of the one person who truly seemed to understand her for just a moment being the same man who kills her child is just absolutely heartbreaking. either way, i think the changes they made imply some very interesting future plotlines and once we see the rest of season 2 lots of minds will be changed

[@ariellann4555]

I had a theory that Heleana was actively having a vision during where she saw if she fought they would all die, she chose the lesser of two evils. People on Team Green were saying oh she should have fought like Cat with Bran. Right, because female characters are interchangeable? Heleana is not Cat, and that's okay.

[@paulwilliams1731]

And it's a different circumstance altogether. One novice assassin vs two, and two children. Cat knew somehow that as long as she could keep the attention on herself, Bran would be alive. Even if she couldn't fully fight the man off. But Heleana would be restrained or killed by one while the other could potentially kill both kids. Cat had also been waiting for death for weeks at that point. She was praying to keep Bran alive for so long that instinct had welled up when she was faced with death in the form of a man. Heleana might have had a vague vision of danger, but she likely wasn't sure when or how it would come about. She was anticipating it, but wasn't expecting it.

[@TaeSunWoo]

This this this

[@insidethesquaredcirclewith9797]

SHE ALSO GAVE UP THE HEIR TO THE THRONE TO SAVE HER DAUGHTER... SHE'S A TRAITOR TO THE REALM

[@r.r815]

​@@insidethesquaredcirclewith9797 genuinely seek therapy

[@marissam8483]

I think Helaena's reaction is something you need to let sink in to really appreciate it. It's not the big emotion you expect from a visual medium like the show, but I think there is something really powerful about Helaena only being capable of running to her mother. Like the shock turned her back into a little girl. On the adaptation side of the complaints, I like what you mentioned about the situation -the heir situation - for Aegon now echoes his father. That's really neat, and I can't wait to see what they do with it. One other thing I think the show runners might have been going for is the point that the book, in its own universe, is a highly fragmented retelling of these events, like a century after everyone involved was gone, told by people with their own biases. I kind of like the idea that at some point, this awful attack was added onto to make it more terrible, more 'entertaining'. In the book it was a more drawn out affair, there were more kids, more murders, and Alicent was in the room. The book made this argument from time to time: people add sensational elements (i.e. Mushroom) to spice up the story, or completely sanitized (i.e. the Maester's) while the real events were likely somewhere in the middle and much more mundane. TLDR, glad the show is back, can't wait for the next episode. Great video!

[@caseyw.6550]

Completely agree. That's what I saw in her...a scared little girl. Heck, that's basically what she is. She's been pretty much ignored her whole life and probably taught to just sit and be pretty. Kids don't often feel like they have the agency to stand up to adults...and those were two scary big strangers with a knive to her throat. Her reaction was pure survival mode.

[@LavenderJack540]

I've read the source material several times. I like both interpretations of the final scene. The book is brutal where this scene is concerned, but then, so is this adaptation. Either way, it depicts a mother being forced to choose which of her children is murdered. In the book, she offers her life in exchange for her children's, and shrieks when her son is mercilessly beheaded. It's a realistic reaction, certainly, but so is the adaptation reaction. Terror and grief provoke all kinds of reactions. Almighty shock is one of these reactions. The actress pulls this reaction off expertly. I was horrified by her predicament, her confusion, terror, desperation, and dread. Her offering her necklace in exchange for her child's life is particularly heartbreaking. It symbolizes the utter fear, anguish, and helplessness she feels in the moment. The way I view it, she perhaps suspects that to men like the ones before her, her jewelry, while more valuable to them than her life (I suspect she feels this way about herself as well, given her overall family predicament/position), may be enough to offset their grisly plans. I thoroughly enjoyed this scene.

[@Lin_Eileen]

Well said! I feel pretty much the same I thought the scene was very well done and effective. Another criticism people have of the scene is how little guards there are and it's a fair critique but I don't think it ruins it. All of the Kingsguard are accounted for in the episode and the lack of household guards being around to notice what's happening I think the same criticism can be levied at the book too. The show has had some leaps in logic too this one isn't that far fetched considering everyone is worrying about the potential of a dragon attack, maybe most of the household guards are out on the battlements taking turns watching out for dragons.

[@glacialimpala]

@@Lin_Eileen Could also be that Daemon did not intend for them to succeed, I mean he sent a rat catcher familiar with a wrong floor together with a gold cloak whose only qualification was 'Hates Hightowers' to kill one of the best fighters alive, guarded by many other knights. He could just have intended for them to get caught while making the royalty feel threatened at own home.

[@asimhussain8716]

The details surrounding the event were poorly written, once again proving this show, while good, is mid compared to prime GoT. So they "sneak" into the castle, and have to walk right in front of the throne? Lol okay, whatever. Oh, Cheese just so happened to not explain he didn't know how to navigate the royal quarters. Ok. Oh, this is a throwaway line since he happens to stumble on Helena. Ok. Not a single guard around despite being in active war time, anticipating retaliation at any point. Ok. OmG TwO TwiNS WhiCH Is The BOY?! Is about to chop off a kids head but WHOA checking to see if which is in fact the boy is too much, so better ask the mother. The mother than just gives up the boy, Blood is doubtful (if you were gonna doubt her anyway JUST CHECK YOURSELF), but don't worry, Cheese magically knows she's telling the truth. Lol wtf is this writing?

[@glacialimpala]

@@asimhussain8716 They better confirm the fan theory that Daemon sent two doofuses just to make the greens feel threatened in own chambers.

[@riakun]

I think that I, and apparently many others, like what they did better in the book, but I do agree that for the show that they wrote, this fits MUCH better with the themes and the whole hypocrisy of the situation, and making great parallels as well. I think it is better to go into this show blind just because you can really connect those themes much easier without that previous knowledge

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Yeah, that's fair. I can imagine the book's version might be better but that hardly makes the adaptation awful

[@riakun]

@@mylittlethoughttree couldn’t agree more! :D

[@MG-js8bn]

I'm very familiar with the book, but I've decided to judge HotD on its own merits instead of expecting it to mirror the book. There's a particular reason, too. The treatment of Viserys was not nearly as interesting and nuanced in the book as it was in the first season, so much so that GRRM gave them props about it himself! His character blossomed in a way I never expected, and Paddy Considine had me in tears for most of the last eps. He was so good! The writing of the character was so good! So I thought, if these people can pull that off, I'm going to just watch where they take this thing and not put any "book expectations" on them. I'm gonna let them drive. I know what happens in the book, and I really like the book, but this is a different kettle of dragons. With that in mind, I thought the B&C scenes were perfectly in keeping with what they've made of this story so far, beautifully written and acted by everyone, and I was relieved we were NOT treated here to another Westerosi bloodbath, actually. My imagination shows me horribly enough what it might be like to saw off a little kid's head. The book version offers more angst, "dials things up to 11" as GRRM so likes to do and does so well, but - I was really impressed with the adaptation's approach.

[@designkid1986]

@@mylittlethoughttree Martin himself loved the adaptation. He stated in his blog: "And Phia Saban gave a wrenching, powerful, heart-breaking performance as Helaena Targaryen, Aegon’s doomed, haunted queen and mother to his children. Saban’s performance is especially noteworthy; very little of what she brings to the part was in my source material. . Last season HOUSE OF THE DRAGON essentially recreated King Viserys, giving him a much different backstory and far more depth than the jolly party-loving king I created for FIRE & BLOOD. I talked about that last year, so I won’t repeat myself, save to say it was very well done, and DAMN but Paddy Considine was glorious in the role. (He should have won an Emmy). The HotD team have done the same thing here with Helaena. In the book, she is a plump, pleasant, and happy young woman, cheerful and kindly, adored by the smallfolk. A dragonrider since the age of twelve, Helaena’s greatest joy in life is to take to the skies on the back of her dragon Dreamfyre. None of the strangeness she displays in the show was in evidence in the book, nor is her gift for prophecy. Those were born in the writers’ room… but once I met the show’s version of Helaena, I could hardly take issue. Phia Saban’s Helaena is a richer and more fascinating character than the one I created in FIRE & BLOOD, and in “Rhaenyra the Cruel” you can scarcely take your eyes off her." I think it makes sense that if the book is a "history" that is slanted towards the greens, and Helaena's family thought she was "mad" rather than prophetic, that maesters could take the events and flip them around. Like she wasn't just "mad," (that looks bad for the greens), she was a "normal" happy person who went mad with grief when her son was killed (Now it's Raenyra the cruel's fault that she's "mad")

[@kandykane3265]

My only addition to your thoughts on Halaena's reaction is, I read her as terrified. It was fight or flight, and she (correctly) picked flight. I think the downstream effects of this later on will make for some top tier acting from the entirety of the Greens. My complaints about the episodes are, not nearly enough time spent at Winterfell. There's all kinds of rumours in the book about Jace's time at Winterfell, and I wanted SOME of them to be addressed. I did see a rumour that Cregan and Jace have more scenes together this season, so I will be mildly hopeful. And also, I also think it's lazy writing about how fricken EASY it was for Blood & Cheese to get to Halaena and her children. That's the Queen and the Heir. Are you telling me that only Cole was (supposed to be) guarding them??? Halaena ran through SO MANY empty halls to get to her mother. Those are the Royal Chambers and there's NO Kingsguard there? No White Cloaks??? They were saying in the council meeting how much they were worried about Rhaenyra's retaliation, and it never occurred to them that someone might come for assassination attempts? They have ALL met Daemon. But overall, I quite enjoyed the episode. From the minute the opening credit rolled, I was enthralled.

[@lachieblack8605]

I think it comes down to the mentality of the queen mother (alicent), as we see she still has alot of power, she believes reluctantly that this will end in violence, but still has love for the other side of the family and doesnt believe that asssassination would occur, and because of that, when she has her illicit affair with the kingsguard, she probably feels safe in the red keep ordering the rest of the few remaining kings guard with the greens away, so that nobody knows about their affair, and so cole ordered the kingsguard away so he could bang the queen, not even fulfilling his role as a guard. and thus only the servant, (which i presume is loyal to the queen) is there, and cole. the only problem i have is that the door wasnt locked. the murder scene for me was absolutely horrifying though and it shocked me and almost made me cry, killing a child infront of the mother and "making her choose" was heartbreaking to me, i think the emotional scarring of the mother was 1000x worse than the death of the child, i couldnt imagine a woman having her life taken away from her like that, her world, where she is manipulated by the culprits as being seen as the one responsible. I think phia saban's (helaena) acting was a 9/10

[@PaidDavefromThaBama]

She reacted perfectly normal to me. If she makes a noise loud enough they’d kill her and her daughter. Ppl might have been slow getting there because earlier she said she was scared of “the rats” She reacted like a tiger eating a deer and using the distraction as a way to escape.

[@a.p.2019]

Honestly, with Smith's less-monstrous portrayal of Daemon (than at least how I read Daemon in the book), I thought their changeups to the "son for a son" plot made a lot of sense. Eg making it a botched attempt against Aemond vs just evening the score against a child. Also, Helaena was brilliant. Given her probable autism (let alone her prophetic capacities), her reaction made perfect sense to me.

[@maximillienrobespierre7262]

As a fellow person who read the book, I absolutely agree that Daemon is described as monstrous most of the time. He’s this cold-blooded murderer who takes pleasure in deflowering maidens... but... that’s mostly from the perspective of maesters and I don’t imagine that they would like Daemon very much for a variety of reasons, so I tend to regard most of that monstrosity as exaggerated. Overall I appreciate his characterisation in the show, because you can clearly see how his various personality traits could be exaggerated to create that image of a monster that’s present in the book.

[@a.p.2019]

@@maximillienrobespierre7262 I had no idea that you of all people would be a GRRM fan, Msr. Robespierre. That said, I could not agree more with your thoughts (and not just in lieu of the guillotine).

[@ImPallasAthena]

I prefer Helaena's reaction in the books, but it doesn't fit her characterisation in the show, which I think is far more interesting than how she's portrayed in the books. She's much more aloof and paranoid, I think the way she was written in the episode and her reaction were perfectly in line with that and was done really well

[@bellamaz1972]

I think Cheese is so far the only character Helaena has made direct eye contact with.

[@StudioTrainor]

Here’s the thing. Especially for the people that are disappointed by the Blood and Cheese in the show. The book was written by a Pro Green Maester. So anything the Blacks supposedly did will be amped up and made out to be a lot worse than it actually was. They killed a kid, that’s not crazy enough for you? They had to make her make a choice? Why? I thought it was really well done and I felt the suspense.

[@princenadroj9766]

I'm glad someone mentioned this, not to mention I completely forgot that the Maesters and the Citadel are close allies to House Hightower.

[@robervalhaha]

Nah, the point of making her choose which son lives was to mentally destabilase Helaena as much as possible, since she was the rider of the second oldest dragon in the realm, Dreamfyre. After blood and cheese she was never able to recover and help in the war.

[@jo0rd73]

@@robervalhahaYou act like losing a son after you point him out and hear his head being cut from his neck as you leave with your daughter isn’t able to have this impact

[@Aiffam1]

The book was a collection of accounts, authored by different people, but penned during the reign of Aegon III, aka Rhaenyra’s son. The authors tried to minimze their own actions, but weren’t concerned with a positive portrayal of the (dead) greens. If history is written by the winners, Fire and Blood is written by the blacks.

[@frijofroisdeern3783]

@@Aiffam1 if the blacks have written it, they, too, might have upped their own Cruelty. Like they wanted people to believe they murdered Laenor...just to Scare people.

[@SimonBea1]

I watched videos comparing the book and the show, and while I'm not as distraught as some of the book reader (I bought the book and will receive it in a few days), I do believe that Alicent should have been there. It would have made her share her daughter's grief and made her a more sympathetic character. I understand that her... banging Cole is meant to make her feel guilty that maybe Cole would have been there to protect Helaena otherwise, but on screen, seeing Helaena run to her mother's bedroom only to find her sleeping with him seemed like.. a very badly placed "comic relief". I also understand Helaena was in shock, and I can understand her reactions. I understand that she proposed her necklace because Blood and Cheese's relationship with Daemon was likely contractual, so maybe that could have convinced them to back off. I still think she should have offered her own life in desperation. But if she already knew or suspected it wouldn't do, I understand why she didn't do it. As for Maelor's absence and likely inexistance, I do agree with the idea that it places Aegon in a similar situation as Viserys in S1E1, with the caveat that he wouldn't necessarily be an hypocrite, since there could still be a succession law saying that IF there is no direct male heir, the heir can be a woman (or her own children). It does reduce the claim that Rhaenyra is "unfit" to rule because she is a woman, though. I like your balanced view. There is no need to panick, and S2 is certainly not GoTS 7-8 because of this, nor is it a blunder of epic proportion. I just wish we had a bit more time seeing how Helaena IS distraught. I hope we'll see that in the next episode, otherwise I fear that, for many, she will seem like a cold woman without an heart, while this isn't at all what was meant by the scene.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Yeah that's fair. I won't dispute anyone preferring the book version. It's just the idea that that somehow makes the TV version awful in contrast. It still works great, it's just executed differently and exploring different things. Hopefully things the next episodes build on.

[@epiphanytorock5284]

To me the difference between the book and the show makes a lot of sense. Plus I'm sure that was written in the book (like Alicient being there with Haleana) is a lie told by Alicient and Cole to avoid telling what they were really doing. I'm doubt that in episode 2 we will see Alicient or Cole being honest and say that there was no guard on the floor because they were both having fun in the bedroom. For me the story given in the book is the lie that was given to the non royal family.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

That's an interesting thought I hadn't considered!

[@madyjules]

really brilliant insight…thanks

[@TaeSunWoo]

Helaena’s reaction seemed spot on. It also seemed like once her twice she jumped into a vision then forced herself to lock back in and escape

[@GaryMcSnail]

I have no qualms with Helaena's reaction. I think Phia Saban did a phenomenal job and her behavior lines up with Helaena in my opinion. The build up and execution (pun unintended) just did not hit with the impact I was expecting. I don't want to see a baby's head get chopped off, the sounds were brutal enough. I wish they had incorporated the children in earlier at the end of season 1 to make it feel more impactful, especially since it was supposed to be such a defining moment. I also didn't care for Jaehaerys' murder simply being a mistake because one of the assassins ran into Helaena while looking for Aemond. But these are my opinions

[@asimhussain8716]

Exactly, he details surrounding the event were poorly written, once again proving this show, while good, is mid compared to prime GoT. So they "sneak" into the castle, and have to walk right in front of the throne? Lol okay, whatever. Oh, Cheese just so happened to not explain he didn't know how to navigate the royal quarters. Ok. Oh, this is a throwaway line since he happens to stumble on Helena. Ok. Not a single guard around despite being in active war time, anticipating retaliation at any point. Ok. OmG TwO TwiNS WhiCH Is The BOY?! Is about to chop off a kids head but WHOA checking to see if which is in fact the boy is too much, so better ask the mother. The mother than just gives up the boy, Blood is doubtful (if you were gonna doubt her anyway JUST CHECK YOURSELF), but don't worry, Cheese magically knows she's telling the truth. Lol wtf is this writing?

[@GaryMcSnail]

​@@asimhussain8716agreed. The writing is overall poor and I'm annoyed that people are thinking people who wanted this to play out differently just wanted Helaena to suffer/see the murder happen Red Wedding style. If I wanted that, I can go back and watch GoT where kids are brutalized all the time with no mercy. I don't want that here. I want good writing

[@dabestestgoblin8495]

As a neurodivergent person myself, her response was very accurate.

[@Inthera_]

Blood and Cheese in the show is a downgrade from the book. It's not because of lack of gore of dead child, the book just more shocking and sadistic in psychological way. Blood and cheese make Halaena to choose which one of her sons to die. She choose Maelor the youngest, but instead they kill Jahaerys the oldest. "You hear that little boy? Your momma want you dead" Cheese whispers to Maelor. It's a psychological torture to both Halaena and Maelor.

[@15clank]

You’re not alone on that

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I won't argue it's not a downgrade, but I don't think that makes the show bad. Personally, I also don't know how believable I'd have found that version in tv, not without a lot of set up for why blood and cheese were that cruel

[@Inthera_]

@mylittlethoughttree I don't hate what they got on the show, I think it's fine. More good things to come.

[@Kidd-In-Charge]

“Trauma: I think it’s great.” -my little thought tree 2024

[@aileenpi73]

No, not ONCE criticizing Rhaenyra for having sex with Cole, both Alicent and Cole crucified Rhaenyra for that for the rest of time, making them the most hypocritical people in that universe.

[@beige_projection]

The Maelor problem I think wouldn't have been difficult to address. They could have still made her pick between Jaehaera and Jaehaerys. She chooses Jaehaera because Jaehaerys is more important as the male heir, but they still kill Jaehaerys, and now she still has to live with the child she once condemned to die, which will weigh heavily on her conscience. That way all the elements of the scene from the book is still there. Aegon on the other hand would still have to live with a female heir, which is a parallel to Visersy' dillema. Instead, what we got is Helaena offering her necklace instead of her life, which is a bummer, because I was looking forward for them to show Helaena's strength as a mother and a woman. And then she just readily pointed at Jaehaerys. No dillema. No wrestling with her thoughts. That's why the scene had no impact for most people who watched it. It was lazy writing in my opinion.

[@troublesomebirdsong]

I think the main problem with the show's interpretation is that the lead up is from Blood and Cheese's point of view, not Helaena's. A good chunk of time is devoted to them. We see them talking to Daemon, we see a montage of them randomly wandering through the castle, we see them arguing with each other, and because all of that time is spent with them, we know their motivations, limitations and failings/incompetence. Normally that's a good thing for humanising characters, but it means they are no longer a scary, unknown, unseen threat that suddenly and maliciously attacks without warning; they're just a couple of hapless knuckleheads, which sucks a lot of the built-up tension out of the impact of the scene. And of course, as soon as Cheese asked Daemon what they should do if they couldn't find Aemond, it was pretty clear they weren't going to. We knew something bad was coming well beforehand either way. It's like watching a horror film entirely from the killer's point of view. It's still gory, but it's not that scary because the impactful suspense all comes from the victim's viewpoint. The Red Wedding for instance works so well because we see the buildup entirely from the Starks' point of view. We can sense some danger is brewing, but we don't know what it is. There are a couple of odd moments and interactions, as well as some ominous sound cues to clue us into something not being right, but otherwise we just see the Starks celebrating and talking about the future. The betrayal by Roose Bolton and Walder Frey is understandable in hindsight, but we don't see it until it's happening. We don't know they've been in contact with Tywin. We don't know they've been planning a massacre. And the shock drives the impact of the attack, because we find out at the same time the Starks do. I think what the show needed to do was this: Show Daemon writing an unexplained letter to Mysaria. She receives it (still in King's Landing), and then passes it on to a goldcloak she meets with (Blood), the only spy she has left loyal to Daemon, after Larys killed all her others in the Red Keep. Then add more scenes of Helaena interacting with Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, so we get to know them and their relationship better. After Helaena had mentioned worrying about 'rats' earlier, briefly introduce the ratcatcher (Cheese) summoned to deal with them. He says there's an infestation in the children's room and suggests they temporarily move to Rhaenyra's empty old room while he deals with it. Show Helaena getting more and more upset and paranoid about a looming threat that she tries to explain to Aemond, but can't. Then that night, two men in hoods suddenly enter Rhaenyra's old room (through the secret passage that we saw Rhaenyra and Daemon use last season) and hold Helaena and the children hostage there. One reads the letter to her which Daemon sent, revealing it offers gold for anyone who can deliver the prince's head to him. (Though their faces are hidden, the audience can tell they are Blood and Cheese). They demand to know where Aemond is, but Helaena doesn't know, so they decide to deliberately misinterpret the letter, and take Jaehaerys' head instead, and asks which one is him. Having Alicent in the room at the time too, like in the book, would obviously heighten the tension, but isn't necessary.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I think this is a good argument. I don't entirely agree and think following blood and cheese does create great tension, especially for non book readers who might not be expecting Helaena and her children to be targeted. That comes as something of a dark twist. I also think time and pacing restrictions limit how well it can be set up in a single episode, however I also think you're argument is a very strong one and I won't entirely disagree

[@MikeyC167]

I think the main reason for the change is what you say at 8:07. Which is why would B&C be so horrifically cruel? Even in the book, they have a specfic task to do, kill Jaherys, why waste time being unnecessary cruel? What's the point? It just wouldn't make a lot of sense to do that in the middle of the night when they're sneaking around the king's palace. It would have taken a LOT more screentime to set up those two characters in a way where that level of cruelty would make sense.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Yeah, I get why people might prefer the book. But that's written by a maester with a bias who can just describe and explain in such a way you question it less. Adapting to TV, it'd require a tonne more setup to make their actions make sense and I think that'd kill the pace of the whole episode.

[@WillowGardener]

I agree that the last scene worked--it was well executed, I liked the additional background on Blood and Cheese, and Helena's reaction of shock really worked well with her character. And I agree that having the killing happen offscreen was better. I still wish they'd stuck to the Sophie's Choice though. Because it drives home that the point of this assassination was not to be practical. It was revenge, and the point was to be cruel. It's supposed to give us a window into how blood feuds work, with each side feeling justified in escalating because they feel the pain of their loss more than they do the loss of their enemy.

[@sleshstamp]

Couldn't they have checked which was the boy? Whyd they have to ask which was the boy? They can check

[@shirwinsadhwani6413]

Checking would likely wake them, and they may scream.

[@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ]

Personally, this scene just let me see that HOT D is not an adaptation, but its own thing now. In the book, this was brutal and it made me hate Daemon and Rhaenyra. In the show, everything is a mistake, which takes away from the weight of the characters' decisions. This scene was fine enough, but it wasn't as shocking and heart-breaking as I was expecting it to be. This show suffers from only having 8 episodes, when there should've been more scenes of Helaena and her children just hanging around together, lovingly. Or Viserys reading to them as he did in the book, last season. And it annoys me that people reduce the criticism to "They wanted more violence" when that's not my point at all. I wanted this scene to feel as impactful or as heart-breaking, as gut-wrenching, as destroying as it was in the source material, but it was just a passable, meh, not-good-not-bad scene overall. They're legitimately scared of making anyone who isn't Criston or Daemon unlikeable.

[@glacialimpala]

Helena's heart wrenching reaction I believe is coming in E02. We had Luke's grief fill E01.

[@asimhussain8716]

Nah, they're more than willing to make team green unlikeable. But Rhaenyra and everyone but Daemon on team black have to be perfect. It's annoying, they're ruining the potential of this show.

[@glacialimpala]

@@asimhussain8716 It's far from perfect to arrive angry and say a very ambiguous demand 'I want Aemond'. As we will see. I think S1 was making us partial to team black but S2 is going to make us dislike them as much as greens.

[@asimhussain8716]

@@glacialimpala What's worse about this is that despite Rhaenyra acting on pure grief and desire for revenge, when she learns Daemon killed the kid, the writers are going to make Rhaenyra look like a good person by admonishing Daemon for this action. They ruined her character since the time skip.

[@glacialimpala]

@@asimhussain8716 Ruined compared to what? The books are a different thing... Daemon in the show is pretty bad, I mean he killed own wife, physically attacked current wife, didn't visit her during difficult childbirth, watched amused when the eye incident happened, felt too proud to visit his rotting brother all those years, now he imprisoned his former lover and only emotional support unless she helps him... Oh yeah, and ignored own daughter because she didn't have a dragon. If he was also ugly the viewers would hate him

[@katygonzalez8031]

I feel like Haelena knew this was going to happen. She says earlier in the episode “I’m scared of the rats” (or something like that) and then rat catchers coming later in the episode to kill her son. I think her knowing yet still being afraid and in disbelief makes this so much more powerful.

[@AmiraIhsan]

After watching several breakdowns on other channels, I realized you’re the only one to discuss Cheese’s surprise and awe at the queen pointing out exactly who they asked for. You’re also the only one to describe her form of shock. Excellent job. Maybe it is because you hadn’t read the books 🤷‍♀️. I think it was a great and scary scene as it was. Excellent breakdown!

[@Mj_Jetson]

So I've spent the past few years scratching my head trying to figure out how they would do B&C. The event in the book is so over-the-top sadistic, gratuitously violent, and an adaptation would inevitably involve child actors playing characters the audience barely knows - all exceedingly tricky to get right. I think they found an alright combination? Its not a bad thing that they chose to change almost all the elements involved in order to tighten up the themes (GRRM was very rushed writing parts of F&B, and at times it really shows). Seeing as the show chose to give Helaena prophetic visions, was kinda surprised they didn't tap into that for this scene? Helaena knows that they're going to ask her to point out her son, so she panickingly blurts something out that gives them the idea to make her identify her son, thus adding to her guilt over the incident - something like that? One thing I really didn't care for was how blundering they chose to make Blood and Cheese. I don't know if they were going for a "they're even more terrifying, because of how incompetent they are, and yet they can do so much damage" vibe or they wanted to make the main characters more redeemable by having the deaths of Lucerys and Jaehaerys be the result of rogue minions, not the main characters themselves or they thought it would be a good source of comedy or they wanted to make Rhaenyra's side less despicable by making Aemond the intended target (there is no indication that he's the target in the book), and then felt they needed something to justify how Jaehaerys was the one who ended up dying - whatever the case, it didn't work for me. There is no suggestion of incompetence in the book; B&C know that Alicent moved into the lightly-guarded Tower of the Hand, and that Helaena takes the kids to see her the same time every day. So they capture Alicent, butcher her entourage, and lie in wait for Helaena. The assassination itself is a pretty competent plan - which only makes it even more morally reprehensible? The targeting of Helaena's kids and trauma inflicted onto Helaena herself was very deliberate and calculated.

[@nedalsoned9940]

even though i think removing maelor was a sensible change, i really do think that the murder should have had more weight. leaving the murder offscreen was a good choice, but the camera could have been a lot more dynamic in framing the scene, i wish helaena giving up jaeherys had come after more deliberation, and i wish the music hadn't come in as she lect the room. my biggest problem is that allicent wasn't in the room, like she was in the book. the character is done a disservice by hbeing removed from that weighty moment imo, and the tension is really compromised by helaena having to (and being able to) leave the room to reach her mother.

[@jo0rd73]

What I think is interesting about her not being in the room is how she may blame herself for this death as instead of Criston protecting the royals like he should be, he was preoccupied with her on her wishes. I just think we need a few episodes to really see where they take all this following the changes because I do see some interesting routes they can take.

[@DarkKing009]

First, she selected herself to be assassinated instead of her children then she picked the younger one because she felt he was too young to understand What was happening. Then Blood and Cheese executed the eldest son in front of his mother his grandmother and his two youngest siblings. I just felt the execution of the scene simply in the blacks in a better light than they deserve to be. The Blood and Cheese incident did not give me the same emotions as discussed when I read it in the book. To compare the Blood and Cheese incident to the Red Wedding interpretation in Game of Thrones I feel disappointed. Like this tragedy should not be given the same weight because it happened to the "villains" The Greens and not the heroic Blacks

[@BJJISTHEGAYPARTOFMMA]

Your not paying enough attention if you think one side is good and the other side is bad.

[@Hazelcake]

because F+B is a history book, we really have little attachment to the characters there, too. but the pure horror of making her choose and then leaving the chosen one alive is truly heartbreaking. in the context of the show and that Helaena is a dreamer, i think actually what they were getting at is that she knew it was inevitable that her son would die on the day his customs were interrupted by Aegon. it's unclear whether the finger point was her accepting fate or somehow trying to change the outcome, Cheese looking into her eyes and knowing the truth seemed... odd? but it would give context to the fact she is not hysterical or trying to fight the situation more. she is traumatised, but not surprised.

[@lovelyhatter]

In regards to her reaction as well, it has been made VERY clear that she has dreams of the future. She most likely knew this was going to happen and was still horrified as it did. She was in shock yes, but also completely helpless to the inevitability.

[@Shamrock797]

I had the impression she also pointed out the boy (Aegon’s heir) honestly as a subconscious revenge to his cruelty and disregard and disrespect he has always shown to her.

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

THANK YOU. I've unfortunately lived through a really suddenly violent traumatic event and how I personally reacted was almost exactly the same as Helaena here (interestingly I am autistic and find Helaena to be autistic coded but I don't know if we're more likely to go into shock that way or what). People expect you to scream and fight or flee, but fawning is just as understandable, dissociation is understandable. Her actress was doing some seriously incredible facial acting there - you could practically see the moment she detached from herself. And I HAVE read the books, literally over a hundred times I practically have it memorized. I think they did a BRILLIANT job, and we did not need to actually see the violence. The way the entire event was framed was just as horrific to me.

[@iconoclast6555]

This is gonna be hard to explain because you didn't read the books, but I strongly disagree that it's not possible for people to feel the same level of emotional impact to the Red Wedding just because we didn't get to know Helaena and her children first. Book readers also didn't get to connect and know Helaena and her children first, but the Blood & Cheese event was very gut wrenching because everybody can feel the sorrow of a mother that was forced to choose between her two sons and then the killer not honoring her choice, and she is now forced to live with the son she condemned to die. It shocked so many book readers because it was one of the most cruel things that happened, even in the universe of A Song of Ice and Fire which is already brutal and dark. This comment best explains it I think: "Nobody expected the brutality to be shown, obviously. But what was expected, and what is fair to expect, is maintaining the elements of the scene that made it so gut wrenching. A mother forced to choose one son over the other. A mother begging and pleading with everything she has for them to be spared, putting her own life on the line over theirs, only after every possible alternative is explored does she relent and choose which one has to go…only for them to disregard her choice completely and choose the other one…forcing her to go on living while the son she chose…continues living looking her in the eyes knowing she chose him to die instead. All of that could have still been included without showing the brutality..instead we got a fast finger point and awkward shuffling out of the room." It's also not that the book readers only want to see gore and brutality. Blood & Cheese is one of the biggest turning points in the story and, if the show will still try to follow the historical texts as best as they could like Condal says, it will play a huge role later on in the story. So we wanted it to have real weight, to have real emotional impact. The fact that more people seem to care more about the dog being kicked than Helaena and her kid is proof that the scene just fell flat, and we are not wrong in criticizing it.

[@thelateescapist8266]

I definitely would've preferred a version of the sequence closer to the book, but I didn't think it was a bad sequence. The version they did is plenty tense and horrifying, and was set up very well. The only thing that bothers me is that Blood & Cheese didn't bother to tie her up or bar the door to prevent her from alerting the rest of the castle, which she very well could have. That beat makes little sense to me.

[@campbellmaggs4384]

Lucerys' sacrifice was ABSOLUTELY one of duty in my eyes. He put himself in danger to aid his family, young and afraid as he was, in the name of duty.

[@kiyakia]

I read the books and agree with you about the last scene! I didn’t feel it was necessary to follow the books exactly with blood and cheese, it really wasn’t that different. It honestly didn’t click for me until you said it, but it DOES put Aegon in the same situation as his father! That is such a cool concept, and without spoiling anything, this will work SO PERFECTLY with future plot points for the Greens!

[@rachymn7883]

I actually did not realise that.... because in this one that other child is not here..well.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

My problem with the scene is: where are the rest of the guards? I get that Cole was busy, but those corridors to the rooms where the royal family actually lives should have had more guards. Then why do they just let her go before they finish their job? She could have raised an alarm faster, so it would have made more sense for them to Helaena until they were done and left.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I too am hoping next episode explains this. My hunch is Cole kept them away so they wouldn't suspect what he was up to, or they're the people Aegon was drinking with...but if there's no explanation, I will take issue

[@amadeusandrew76]

Jaehaerys was NOT his only son. After the twins he had Maelor, the youngest.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

But he doesn't in the show...or not yet, anyway

[@madyjules]

@@mylittlethoughttree really glad I found your channel & subbed…you have such a unique and intelligent view on what inspires these characters in HOTD thanks!!

[@Silberwolf01]

Helaenas silence and relative calmness (from the outside!!) made it possible for the audience to focus only on the murder itself. And that Helaena has autistic traits is very obvious already from the first season.

[@Mmichael1]

I think it’s great. The way Aegons succession is similar to that of Viserys. Masterful. Will the greens name the girl as heir in which case they’re hipocrites?

[@pendragonsxskywalkers9518]

They can argue girl is heir presumptive until youngre brother is born, while Rhaenyra was heir apparent ahead of her younger brothers. But, yeah, irony of situation now is that Aegon is fighting against female monarch, while he himslelf has female heir.

[@NightFeline]

It's not that she didn't scream, or that she went into shock. That was actually brilliant. And yes, the sound of the knife sawing into the child's neck, that was terrifying. Speaking of which, I'm glad the murder was committed off-screen. No sane person wants to see that. The problem is that she gave in too easily to their demands. When asked to choose, book Helaena begs the assassins to kill her instead. They refuse, saying they need "a son", not a wife, and ask her again to choose one of the boys. Understandably, she hesitates; she can't do it. She chooses little Maelor ONLY AFTER Blood and Cheese tell her what they are going to do to her daughter, and how they would kill all the children, if she doesn't make a choice. And where the hell are ALL the guards? I get it, Ser Crispin is busy (show-only thing, but ok). But where is everybody else? Helaena is the queen; there should be at least one guard outside her door, if not two, and others to patrol on the corridors. In the book, Blood&Cheese must kill her guard before grabbing her and the children. Just saying. Not that the whole scene is bad, but it lacks certain details, which makes it kinda underwhelming.

[@Smoke-by-the-Shadow]

Haelena is a mother who loves her children, but she’s also a poor woman plagued by visions she doesn’t fully understand. In my mind she’s almost a schizophrenic, seeing things and hearing things nobody else does with a brain wired differently. The episode was incredible, and real. Vengeance leads to more vengeance, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

[@joywagner979]

People reading her as autistic is almost offensive to me, because like you, she comes off as ... something else entirely to me. I think people honestly believe "autism = magical powers!" and that's why they believe a character with obvious mental illness and vaguely magical abilities is "autistic." But maybe it's the difference in interpretations between someone who is in the mental health field vs. people who have learned everything they know about mental health from the internet? Not trying to be mean with that statement, but there is a big difference and it impacts people's media literacy.

[@SimonBea1]

By the way, I watched a lot of your psychological videos in the past few weeks. I really enjoyed them, especially your "rehabilitation" of Catelyn (and Sansa). Keep it up! The internet needs sober, thoughtful analysis like yours, instead of dramatic, over the top reaction videos.

[@J_ads2000]

Yay, finally some positivity. People are way too comfortable complaining. This episode wasn’t the best adaptation but that doesn’t make it dumb or illogical in its own right. The episode was nowhere near the level of game of thrones season 7 or 8. Some people are just too dramatic.

[@petrahalbur476]

I think my main frustration w the scene is that so much of it feels accidental. *Maybe* Daemon gave the ok, but mostly it's an assassination attempt gone wrong. Part of what makes it so awful in F&B is that something so needlessly cruel was planned so well.

[@Loki-g3k]

Yeah it's like now it was fault of smalfolk like blood and cheese instead of a plot that is set by daemon.

[@petrahalbur476]

@@Loki-g3k 💯

[@thevikingbear2343]

Remember the book is written in a Pro-Green anti-Black lens. It makes perfect sense that the book makes the blacks way worse than irl. And as a proof of that GRRM helped write the show so all the changes are pproved by the man himself, unlike GOT.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

I would counter that by saying, while Aemond was the intended target, Daemon still instructed this. They asked "what if we can't find him?" We see a long look from Daemon before it cuts away. The episode is called "a son for a son", and they later quote Daemon telling them "a son for a son." In that sense, they asked what to do if they can't find Aemond, and Daemon suggested this. Sure, they didn't try very hard to find Aemond but it's not quite as accidental as it does seem

[@thetruelichking3321]

@@mylittlethoughttree if demon did say a son for a son to them if they could not find aemond might mean they did not find him on purpose cause well what if they die better to kill a easier target and get the money (since they found her first)

[@ceres090]

I know when I'm in intense situations, I focus through them and fall apart later, when I know everyone else is okay. Helena is not only neuro-divergent coded, she's also not had time to process anything, considering she was forced to parade herself and her dead son through the city for sympathy. Also, considering she most likely saw a vision of this moment, she has experienced a form of this horror twice.

[@DranasLP]

i think it is a very good executed scene, i really felt a sense of horror as cheese read the truth from helena's face, a twisted way of empathy, that really shook me, but yes i could have been better, yet i do not believe they should have build up more to that scene, the entire episode must be taken in consideration and it was leagues better than nearly any other episode from season 1 it had really good pacing and all of the scenes were excuted really really good with a sense of bombast and enough time to let the characters develop, just judging from episode i do believe it is more catered towards a casual audience which i do not dislike

[@misssoso5859]

There is a lot of valid criticism concerning how the show handled B&C, but I adore how they handled Healena's reaction. It was very accurate to her previous characterization as a neurodivergent, isolated woman who was plagued by visions of an ominous future (that she could only vaguely feel but never understand). Her silent horror and devastation as she witnessed her visions slowly materialize into a nightmarish reality was perfect. Her trauma response - freezing and dissociating - was way more heartbreakingly realistic than all the screaming and wailing fans expected her to do.

[@MoonSystem-They-It]

One thing we're looking forward towards is how Aegon reacts to Halaena, and how much he ends up blaming her for "making her choice" of an impossible question at knifepoint.

[@youngveteran6368]

My thing with B&C is the illogical inconsistency of the scene, stuff like there not being a guard at THE KINGS CHILDRENS BED CHAMBERS especially when we see that there is a guard posted at that very door earlier in the episode😐 do they just take the fucking night off????? Second how are these idiots walking around the ROYAL APARTMENTS and there’s not one guard in sight??? I’ve seen people saying sir Criston dismissed them to go get his pickle wet but that still doesn’t answer my question, THERE WERE NO OTHER HOUSE HOLD GUARDS??? Why would THE LORD COMMANDER be guarding the bed chambers of babies? Let’s say he dismissed the guards on helaena’s level do they all just leave on the level below also because helaena ran down multiple flights of stairs and didn’t encounter not even a servant, I’ve seen people say that the guards are on the wall…. Ok so they don’t have two guards to spare to guard the lower level that helaena ran to??? , why TF WOULD B&C LET HER WALK OUT OF THE ROOM!!! ??????????????????????????? B&C makes sense in the books because they acknowledge that they can’t get in the royal apartments so they instead go to the tower of the hand where helaena comes to see alicent and she reads bedtime stories to the kids. They weren’t walking through the royal apartments and stumbled upon them which means that they purposely went after the kids in F&B but of course they dropped the ball on that too Season 2 ep1 is season 1 ep 9 all over again, a good episode that could’ve been a great episode but because of the writing it falls flat, personally the only saving grace from that scene was the music and phia saban PHENOMENAL acting Btw no I didn’t need to see child get his head 🗡️ off, hell I’d say jahaerys suffered more in hotd than in F&B because blood did the deed with a single swing of his sword were as these assholes 🪚 his 👦🏼………….😤

[@Mj_Jetson]

On the exclusion of Maelor... so it does make the themes a little tighter, to make Helaena chose between her son and her daughter. With Maelor's absence moving forward... (um, spoilers for the book... though probably not for the show?) Maelor ends up in the Reach, and dies horrifically juuuust before reaching the safety of his uncle Daeron's army (Daeron the Daring is Alicent and Viserys' 4th child). This is a pivotal moment for Daeron's arc, turning him from this sweet, courteous and clever kid into a cold-hearted war criminal. Looks like they're cutting both Maelor and Daeron? I guess instead of the book plot, where the Reach splits messily 3 ways between pro-Aegon, pro-Rhaenyra and neutral, the show will simplify it so that the whole Reach supports Aegon, and focus on the fighting elsewhere?

[@NotAGoodUsername360]

I do think people are bothered because they MASSIVELY toned down Blood and Cheese from the book, and this is supposed to be the event that takes Alicent out of commission and Haelena kills herself over the mind break. Hard to see her doing that after this version

[@gracehaven5459]

I find it interesting that how in season 1 they made a point of showing that there is emotional distance between Allicent and her children. One example being when she tries to awkwardly bond with Helaena and Helaena rejects the physical contact. (Also further implying that H is on the autism spectrum) it's interesting when you keep that in mind that Helaena's first instinct is to literally go lay at the feet of her mother's bed like a child after a nightmare. I'm not sure what the implications of that are but I did notice it.

[@JGArtemis]

As an autistic woman myself I see myself in Heleana. A lot of the times we freeze instead of fight or flight. It’s normal to go nonverbal in times of immense stress. How she reacted makes sense for her character.

[@acephaedramusic9588]

I loved this episode! It confirmed my suspensions about Alicent and Criston, we got some incredible acting from Emma and Jaces actor! The only gripes I had was the logistics of Blood and Cheese entering the castle and the emission of Helaenas other son. But I understand that it might've been budget constraints and I was glad the scene wasn't as gruesome as I expected. It's not perfect, but this is a great show!

[@e.k.7462]

I wonder how it would feel like to know and feel what would going to happen. Being there while it's happening but being unable to think of something to help or do anything. When Heleyna pointed a finger she kinda gave up to a fate and her only thoughts might be like 'I must at least save my daughter' I wonder would she think Am I still dreaming or is it really happening this time?

[@islasullivan3463]

I think the adaptation was fine, but her running to Alicent, and them being in the middle of it felt out of place with the rest of the scene, more comedic than what was intended. Also a bit concerned the show is cutting characters from the books Daeron, Nettles, and now Aegon’s second son. The first two had some important roles in the books and Daeron is the greens fourth dragon rider.

[@topsyturvygirl]

My take was that she knew they were going to kill the boy so she thought, all I can do is save the daughter which is why she pointed to the boy. If she had pointed to the girl, they would have killed the girl, then realised it was the girl then also killed the son. Her blank reaction was perfectly understandable as a trauma response, where the body is in complete shock and quite literal and matter of fact. It’s a survival response.

[@limbus66]

Something people seem to have forgotten about Fire and Blood is that every account about what happened is deliberately vague, told from multiple differing and conflicting perspectives and clearly contains some political agenda on the part of the maester writing it, at least that's how George conceived of the whole work. I felt like the way they adapted blood and cheese felt like a great way of making it make sense as a kind of incompetent fuckup, and it's also believable that the version from the book is how the story could be told to make daemon and the blacks seem impossibly cruel and vicious

[@mylittlethoughttree]

This is my thinking too. The show would have to do a lot of work to believably establish why blood and cheese were as cruel as they are in the book. The most obvious explanation is that they weren't quite that cruel. Makes for a less dramatic, horrific version of the scene but still horrific and still effective

[@FrancisR420]

But I thought them forcing the choice was already a bit hacky, if they had really gone that far with it it would be borderline comedic

[@ironfoot01]

everyone says ''if christon wasnt abonded his duty maybe he could save them''.How poetic...Dudes,they dont have just one guard.Blood and cheese does not interfire with any guards.They just hanging around in castle as they like.This Christon argumant doesn't covering up writing.They should've changed the writer after drogon pit thing in first season

[@amothinisengard6505]

YES!! So happy to hear my thoughts echoed by someone smarter than me. Helaena's reaction was a perfect representation of all consuming quiet terror that was just as heart rending as screaming. Her scenes are always highlights of the episodes for me and this one was no different. I'm glad that others feel the same. Blood & Cheese was never going to feel like the Red Wedding for exactly the reasons you stated. We'll get plenty of red wedding moments in future episodes, I'm sure, but this one simply wasn't going to have the same flavor of emotional weight. Our focus isn't necessarily on Jaehaerys and violence - it's on Helaena and her reaction to that violence. Don't worry, more will die :) Also loved Aegon's performance this episode. Tom Glynn-Carney is a joy to watch. Hope to see more HOTD reactions from you in the future!

[@fayedunaway8]

About the deep connection with the characters leading up to the event of the red wedding blood and cheese is a different situation. We don't get to spend with any of Aegon's children in the books. They're pretty much in the background. Blood and cheese is the most detailed account in Fire and blood and while no one connected to these children it was still psychologically horrible as a reader. You really didn't have to care about Aegon's children to make this scene as haunting and as disturbing as it was in the books. SPOILER from books -It's the 'made to choose' between two sons and the sadism in telling the other small two year old kid that her mother wants him dead after she's chosen him. One of the buffoons that were hired to kill also threatened to r*pe Jaehaera. Also when she chose the two year old boy, blood and cheese went ahead and decapitated the heir anyways. Now she has to live with Maelor. Think about the heaviness of that psychological impact.

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Yeah, I mean I don't disagree the book version is more brutal and dramatic. I happily concede that point but I don't think that makes the TV version terrible as a result. Different strengths and weaknesses, possibly worse overall but still very, very good. Also, to be honest, I find the idea of the book version too harrowing for TV. I don't think I'd have liked it

[@fayedunaway8]

@@mylittlethoughttree people are overreacting when they say it was just straight up terrible but their reactions are understandable. It just didn't live up to the hype. Blood and Cheese was one of the most pivotal moments in the book and had the potential to be up there with the red wedding. The sounds of the child getting beheaded and that child calling help for his mother was haunting but the idea of Haelaena living with Maelor after she chose him is just horrifying to think what could be going on in her head which leads to her fate. The show version wasn't exceptional but it wasn't bad either.

[@darriuscole8544]

Haelena's reaction is fine; it's the rest of the scene that doesn't work. 1. If there is only a boy and a girl there there is no point in asking anything. They will check to see which is which. They are not going to take her word for it, less she lie and they don't kill the son. 2. It makes no sense for there to be no guards there. Between the sitting Queen and her 2 kids there should be at least 2 Kingsguard stationed there. 3. Alicent's door would have been locked. Presumably she is trying to hide her affair with Cole. The show runners REALLY want us to know that Alicent is banging Criston.

[@GG-zn6tc]

the guard is meant to be cole but he was shagging alicent

[@GrinMonister]

They only have three king's guard at the moment since three of the seven are with Rhaenyra, and the fourth left to fight for neither side. Two of them were shown with the king in the throne room, and Criston was with Alicent. Though they should have shown a regular guard or two milling about (but they might have been dismissed to keep the affair secret).

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

​@@GrinMonistersince this their should have been like 2 or 3 guards at her door until the guard could be filled

[@Lin_Eileen]

Some fair criticisms but I feel like 2 can be easily explained. 3 of the kingsguard have defected from the crown and now serve Rhaenyra, one of the kingsguard is banging the queen, and the remaining three kingsguard are with the king who is drunk and chilling on a throne of swords that could easily kill him if he slips. Most of the kingsguard still in the red keep are doing their jobs literally to what the name entails they are guarding the king. It is an error to not have anyone guarding the queen, but that was Criston's job from the looks of it and you can't blame the other 3 for wanting to watch the king. The lack of any household guards around that aren't kingsguard does raise some questions but it also isn't too far fetched because they are fearing possible dragon attacks, so it's feasible most of or all of the household guards who would be there have been moved to manning the battlements and watching the skies for dragons

[@darriuscole8544]

@@Lin_Eileen - Nobody at all guarding the Queen NOR the King's children is quite far fetched. So who does have a guard if not the sitting Queen nursing the King's heir? The butcher? The nun, or the septa, as they call it in ASOIAF? The banker? None of these people are as important as the Queen nursing the heir to the throne. If there was only 1 guard in all of King's Landing, he should have been there guarding those two. And he would have been but for PIS.

[@beige_projection]

Aegon won't be put in the same quandary as Viserys was losing a male heir. Viserys had literally no male options as heir except for Daemon who he deemed too erratic to be the King. Meanwhile, even without Maelor, Aegon has Aemond and Daeron that could succeed him as male heirs. So his reign doesn't have the same problem that Viserys had back when he was having a dilemma about not having an heir. There's some conflict between Aegon and Aemond but not as bad as Viserys and Daemon, and I'm sure Aegon has no problem with Aemond being his heir until a son is born to him.

[@sAINTDeVille]

Welp with only two episodes left I can say NO Helena is NOT disturbed or even overly emotional about what happened in ep 1! What's even stranger is we haven't seen her daughter Jahera since EP 1 either! I'm really confused as to why the showrunners aren't using her story from the book as it was very heartbreaking and emotional and would have made for great television if nothing else!

[@skettitangles]

I read the book a little while before season one came out and really liked it. I love what the show has done and am on board with all the changes made from the book so far. It’s solid and I hope they maintain this all the way to a satisfying conclusion. I was looking forward to a horrifying Blood and Cheese scene but when it unfolded the way it did I wasn’t disappointed

[@teal1010]

I was shocked by the lack of Security!

[@mylittlethoughttree]

Me too to be fair. I'm hoping it gets explained. In my head, I'm imagining the guards are the people Aegon called away to get drunk with...but I don't think that's correct and I think it needs more explanation

[@GeekazonMerchHub]

Not sure how she is in the books but Helaena in the show always felt like on the spectrum or something. I wouldn't expect her to act or react as most people would. I thought her reaction made sense considering how she has been presented throughout the show.

[@visenya8]

I am not a psychiatrist, so I am not giving a diagnosis here, but to me it seems like Helaena is somewhere on the autism spectrum. I don't think that she internalizes, processes or expresses emotions like most people do. She is very smart but also very sensitive and has a brain that is wired to work differently. She is not going to react in this situation the way someone who is neurotypical would. And that's not even considering the shock she is probably in. I think Phia did an amazing job with this scene. I was impressed ❤

[@SpectrumMom]

I think it was a huge mistake not to show the moment when Alicent found out about Luke’s death!

[@nebuloushammer8773]

My headcannon is that Aemond puts on a confident facade that he did it on purpose. Alicent sees right through the lie, but she doesn't bring it up when she berates him for a couple minutes in view of everyone. In private, she goes into scary low voice mode and tells him that she knows the murder wasn't entirely intentional, but he is still responsible.

[@Raincognoscente]

As a book reader, book readers are being stubborn, demonstrating how little they understand the book if they think a book that is structured as a vague history book filled with questionable details should be followed to the letter. In adapting something to a different medium there are going to be changes, stop seeing changes as inherently bad and instead look at them on a case by case basis.

[@mintybadger6905]

I’m a book reader - first off, yeah the readers are stubborn. Second, it was a fine scene but not what we were expecting. My husband isn’t as devoted as I am but even he felt there were elements missing. Honestly, my biggest issue was the horrible stilted dialogue between Jace and Stark at the beginning of the episode.

[@amateuroverlord8007]

The reason people don’t like the scene is because it’s so much more brutal in the source material. From the time they announced this I questioned if they could ever put that on tv. I’m surprised they didn’t.

[@tiabeaniesemotionalsupportdmon]

Everyone has different trauma reactions, ffs. I do t know how some people don’t realize this by now. Also, people who are neurodivergent, like Haelaena apparently is, definitely might react differently than neurotypical people.

[@chelscara]

5:50 I did see marketing specifically referring to the red wedding which I feel was a bit of a miss because I think the scene is great on its own, but I can see where someone expecting the red wedding combined with what's in the book could be disappointed.

[@vincentvega22]

People are right to complain about that scene, the one in the book was objectively better in every way, it should have been much more impactful, millions of people should be talking about this like crazy on social media all week, but that's not happening. I feel that Miguel Sapochnick's departure hurt the series too much, he would have directed it much better.

[@beige_projection]

I don't think the scene worked when what most people are talking about and impacted by are the dog and Alicole's sex scenes.

[@robchuk4136]

Good point about structure, and I agree we have to wait for the season to play out before assessing if this kill was in the right place, or if it should have been the closer to last season, or whatever. (For my money, I think they put it in a great spot to kick things off. Besides, last season's finale absolutely needed it's own space for maximum impact.) Helaena's response (or lack thereof) makes sense for her character, imo. Yes, it was weird, but she's always been weird.

[@mendiel8726]

I just watched hereditary, and I couldn't help but compare both scenes (Charlie's death vs Jaehaerys's). Both characters reacted silently to the child's death, but there was no debate about how Charlie's death impacted Peter because it was actually well written. We did see Peter do everything to keep his sister alive, we did see him try, hopelessly, to save his sister, the rush, the intensity and the death of Charlie was the climax. Peter's reaction makes so much sense and it's true instantly heartbreaking. None of that was in b&c so much so that people cared more about a random dog, they shoved almost all the drama out of the scene

[@kungfubigfoot]

The thing about the book, in my opinion, is that it's written as a History Book. And is told by three people. It's easy to say that they are all unreliable narrators. One is a jester named Mushroom, who primarily focuses on the sexual aspects of the story. So, there is nothing to say that this happened exactly as shown in the show. Fire a Blood is a book fluffed to make it look like certain things were a certain way. Wanting Helena to scream for her child shows they don't understand accurate compliance and fear. An Abused person knows not to cry or to bring further punishment. Fear of reprisals of screaming and losing her other child and or her own life as well. A good example is Troy Baker, who is Joel in The Last of Us. When the character's daughter dies in the early part of the game. He went for it, screamed and wailed, tears streaming. The director told him to do less. And it was so much more powerful to watch him hold in his pain to try and not scare his child, who was suffering right in front of him. Sometimes, less is more. I think she nailed it. Like you said.