PERMADEATH is FLAWED | Deepwoken

Deepwoken is a game with little to no hand holding,
please buckle in your seat belts.
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Music used in this video:
The Conservatory (Serene) - Slime Rancher 2 OST

[@AphasonicTV]

I feel like the permadeath in Rogue was more fitting in Deepwoken. Rogue functions as a challenge survival, and Deepwoken is more of an RPG. Rogue's progression was challenging, but short, and deepwoken's is tedious, but easy. Although the permadeath feature in Deep was executed well in the lore, it becomes an annoyance more than a challenge. Deepwoken isn't hard, (in the sense that the goals you need to accomplish are basic such as lvling up which can be purely dne by pve which takes more experience than skill) as your progression can be EASILY repliacted, and wiping just makes it more painful. Rogue's progression was always unpredictable, and the permadeath felt relevant. It was a challenge. Something that Deepwoken isn't. (Permadeath is only relevant in the depths...) Deepwoken is a hard game fundamentally, sure, however since the mobs inthis game do the exact same thing over and over, there's no thrill or unpredictability that the player combat experience had, and that's probably why Rogue was so much more fun to replay. It was a fast challenge run, that gave you the thrill of accomplishing something (even if you were boosted dying still felt like a FAIR punishment) This probably also explains why people like playing voidwalker so much, as it makes the game interesting or a change. Although I enjoy PvE, I have to admit that pvp is fundamentally better for a PERMADEATH game. Most of the time Deepwoken just feels like a more punishing dark souls, in the sense that if you were to fight a mob you've never seen before and die, you have to do another 10 hour + progression to reattempt, which is absurd. Permadeath doesn't work in a more PvE focused game. (And since pvp can be COMPLETELY avoided during progression, it's not difficult or unpredictable) Along with the fact that the depths is a joke to most experienced players just makes the permadeath system more of an annoyance. (The life system is also extremely unfair or easy to avoid too) (Rogue's life system was better honestly besides the lack of pds and bs you can die to) But eh, what can you do?

[@Mambles]

Well written and thought out, pinned : )

[@po1son__]

@@Mambles not fun for new players or people who don't play a lot

[@Hunter-jf4ld]

Rogue's progression was not quite short, and definitely harder to progress than in Deepwoken which is just easy and long

[@Minh2438]

If somehow deep remove permadeath bc u start it then i will haunt you 24/7 and never forgive you for this trashy video . Permadeath is super needed i cant even imagine playing deep without permadeayh it is sooo important and the thing that make me love deepwoken. The reason i join deep is bc it has permadeath that it ​@@Mambles

[@DillonMagreveous]

Unless you got yourself a private server, it’s impossible to avoid pvp during pve progression. Yes yes I know that there are some places that voidwalkers can’t directly teleport to but that doesn’t mean they can’t just sail there. The amount of times I’ve been voidwalked at crypt before is criminal. One time I was at the fishing island near vigils and I was voidwalked, th guy fell from the sky(maybe they can teleport to that island idk but if so that just makes it worst) My pain point with voidwalking is that pve players are at such a disadvantage for so many reasons. -Voidwalkers often get the first hit -they can teleport directly to you pretty close to you and can see you through walls -they often attack you when you are low fighting a mob -the threshold to be targeted is too low and/or unbalanced. It’s just frustrating because I’m relatively new but because of my lv I have a maxed out voidwalker who has thousands of hours of experience coming for me so it’s just better for me to combat log. Onetime I joined a server and within 47 seconds a voidwalker teleported to me…

[@Petrol_Sniffa]

let's not act like rogue is beginner friendly. Everyone you see ever is a voidwalker

[@cheese1827]

xd

[@pantommy]

Plus the "no hand holding" being used as an excuse for dumb game design. I love how without a wiki you're just supposed to randomly find your trainers, as if anyone would ever find the shinobi trainer without someone else's guidance. No handholding is an actual crutch word for lazy devs that don't know how to properly allow players to find stuff themselves, these are the so called "wiki games".

[@deepwokensucks8664]

​@pantommy rogue is irrelevant considering that it was a bad game and their no longer working on it, thats like complaining about my 3rd grade essay having spelling errors when I'm in highschool

[@ecksdee5445]

Erm actually "Deepwoken is a difficult game with permanent character loss. Losing characters is a part of the game that should be expected"☝🤓

[@theduke4396]

pfp fits

[@ligmagigma522]

Well said

[@Bossiki3412]

Arcane lineage: We are the same

[@eugenepile7036]

@@Bossiki3412but free

[@Spruce_XI]

Deepwoken's original vision was as an adventure and exploration game rather then permadeath, they intended on implementing proper quest and stealth systems but ended up scrapping them. What really happened was that ragoozer saw the success that rogue lineage had, and slid permadeath into deepwoken. The reason why permadeath doesn't work in deep isn't just roblox jank, but simply because the concept of permadeath discourages exploration and fighting, You're incentified to use the deepwoken wiki on every corner and inch of the game or risk losing hours of playtime. heck even simple things like dialogue options can you WIPED. Learning certain mob patterns is also flawed. In a boss fight you're supposed to constantly die with each run slowly learning your opponent's moves. But this doesn't work in deepwoken, where dying 3 times resets your progress and you're being carried by your friends throughout your first encounters. Wiping also just ISNT fun especially for how time consuming progressing is. you should atleast gain something from each run, but all you really get are some echoes that you barely have a use for. Lastly, deepwoken has next to no endgame after finishing a build...it's almost always the same generic formula of: >get power 20 >get bell >get gear And the devs know that, this is why they update every single week because their game would literally die once the players realize this. The game is effectively at a dead end, rather then overhauling entire systems and trying to enhance player experience, they branch out into other gamemodes (like chime, br and farming??)

[@k_bow4295]

Completely agree with ragoozer slapping on permadeath on deep when deep shouldnt have it and ragoozer is also the reason we have voidwalkers he saw that rouge was a successful game and wanted to add something very similar so he created voidwalkers and now that is probably the most hated thing rn and voidwalking also makes no sense like nobody likes getting voidwalked and nobody likes voidwalking because its so hard to actually get a good bounty you either go to eastern luminant and pray you arent gonna fight a 2 star getting guarded by a max or you voidwalk at erisia and fight ppl who are new and inexperienced because more experienced players just go to crypt which cant be voidwalked???????? Why is bandit camp the place where less expirienced players go to farm able to get voidwalked but crypt the place where ppl who actually know what they are doing go to farm cant its si backwards because literally everyone goes to crypt right out of trial

[@k_bow4295]

Another this is the only example of being able to retry a boss over and over again learning its patterns is chaser because with a light hook there is 0 risk of dying every other boss you either get boosted or get sent to depths over and over again trying to fight it its a terrible thing for new players because doing duke/ferryman is a good way to get exp but they arent gonna be able to learn it if they are constantly getting sent to depths

[@littleluigi6066]

Lastly, deepwoken has next to no endgame after finishing a build...it's almost always the same generic formula of: >get power 20 >get bell >get gear >kill random players because bored

[@Disconnection595]

Factual bruh i got sent to the depths more times then i could count just to learn dukes moveset

[@pantommy]

@@littleluigi6066 crazy how this was the same thing I was saying 2 years ago, just power 60 instead. Deepwoken, like its world, never really changed.

[@april5356]

Deepwoken could be a great RPG or Roguelite if it was just one of them, but it tries to be both at the same time and ends up being less than the sum of its parts, the point of Roguelites is that a singular run will usually at most take an hour so it doesn't matter much if you lose a run because you can try again immediately, RPGs revolve around progressing on a single character for at minimum a couple hours, Deepwoken tries cramming permadeath into a genre not made for permadeath, imagine if WoW wiped all of your data if you died too many times.

[@josukedrinkingcoffee7346]

echoes helped a LITTLE bit with the no reward for wiping issue but it simply isn't enough

[@zakibzrahh5371]

Shouldn’t get a reward for wiping. It doesn’t make logical sense for the game to reward you for losing. I agree with echos as it’s a little bonus for future runs but realistically what reward are u looking for when u lost?

[@SorinSero]

the reward is gaining experience to help you not wipe the next time

[@Mirak-el]

@@zakibzrahh5371 I just don't think to wipe = to lose. I think that's why you think its illogical.

[@EBCHC]

@@SorinSero yeah but the conection lost in a fight its not experience for you. In addition to all other injusticies like the ratswalkers. The problem is not lose your loot, the problem is having to repeat everything cuz of the other players with a better build, equipment and experience than yours. This would also not be a problem if it were not because you have limited lives and once you are attacked they do not let you escape because of the state of danger that lasts longer than the state that the NPCs leaves you. It also doesn't let you use your glider and it has no logic of why not, if at least they want to do everything realistic because they should also let the glider use in danger. This is absurd, the game is fun but it reaches a point where it is no longer fun to have to repeat everything because of factors that you can't control and that depend on your luck.

[@Sato-jd2wq]

@@zakibzrahh5371 Thing is that nothing about wiping is interesting or fun, there's games that make losing feel fair or deserved, in deepwoken it's so mentally exhausting to wipe because then you have to do the same progressing because its always the same in deepwoken, for like a whole day to get your build again and maybe max it. You don't feel like you learned something new and that you will use that newfound knowledge to do better this time 99% of the times, you're simply frustated because you wasted your time for basically nothing

[@VIOLENT6]

Life restore denied because power outages are counted as hardware issues 😨

[@Lemantra]

I honestly dont understand why the devs removed the permadeath boon

[@camel3043]

whats that again? i forgor

[@EnderSalad]

@@camel3043I imagine that meant that at one point Deepwoken was not permadeath but you had the option to choose so

[@solan2915]

it seems like permadeath was supposed to be an important mechanic but it seems like it was just forgotten about. Deepwoken should not even be permadeath anymore

[@No-ih4fb]

void walkers have to be the most annoying and inconvenient things in deepwoken

[@notnosey]

womp womp

[@eatmynutsarchmage4883]

they dont need esp or a teleport

[@j_racc]

@@eatmynutsarchmage4883???

[@blazeingsonicthegod8417]

​@@eatmynutsarchmage4883 spoke like a true permafreshie

[@speedlife735]

​@eatmynutsarchmage4883 no no remove the tp back to voidheart (the set spawn for free card) keep the esp when you tp to catch people, and just make voidwalkers reset cooldown shorter.

[@placeowner]

Deepwoken is a game with little to no hand holding,

[@Kimimaru1581]

Light hook?

[@IFIDIEWEALLDIE]

@@Kimimaru1581only 20 minutes

[@Kimimaru1581]

@@IFIDIEWEALLDIE 20 mins of consequence free learning

[@IFIDIEWEALLDIE]

@@Kimimaru1581 "Deepwoken is a game with little to no hand holding" read it slower

[@JaronPalone]

@@Kimimaru1581Good luck even getting to caste light as a beginner without getting jumped and depths ganked

[@Ambatu31]

Hear me out each time u die with a power 20 character with bell and all u get a boost to xp nothing like crazy just a lil boosts that stacks and has a cap. ( i know i cooked)

[@oskarox06]

ironic that just now people are realizing how flawd the whole system is, it always has been, thats one of the reasons i see none of my die hard friends play the game anymore, cuz it just takes too long and its boring to do the same thing for 2 hours just to get wiped cuz void walker ganked you and then someone was bored in depths

[@rottenthestone5845]

honestly i can understand your point i got ganked in depths after spending like 3 days to finish a build it literally shattered my soul tbh sometimes i just dont feel like grinding i just wanna get to the fun part and pvp in this game is very ping reliant which is a huge disadvantage for perma high pings like me

[@HavilandBerg]

Only thing I hate about wiping in deepwoken is things like Miserables where you can wipe for just picking a dialogue option. I’ve never personally experienced this but on paper it’s a horrible decision.

[@arson6579]

Dawg he literally says he will search your spine if you lie to them. WHATD YOU EXPECT?

[@Henry28a]

​​​@@arson6579 all it does is discourage people from exploration and trying things out for themselves. why would I talk to random npcs if I knew there was a chance they could wipe me and make me lose hours of progress and time.

[@eatthetree348]

@@Henry28a read the dialogue :🚫 complain: ✅

[@Sato-jd2wq]

@@eatthetree348 imagine wiping to a literal dialogue on a build that you've been working on for 10+ hours

[@eatthetree348]

@@Sato-jd2wq yo facts let me trash talk the guy who just made 5 DUDES heads EXPLODE

[@incription]

the only time I die in deep is when I get ganked randomly and its just annoying its not even ffun being in the depths and fighting 4-5 people on pvp builds

[@splobby]

Cap echoes at like 100, but make it increasable when you get ranks (W rank, etc.) up to 500. Then make an echo shop at the new character customize screen that lets you buy echo talents or even boons (new ones not like engage) These talents are exclusive to the slot and lost when wiped New stuff can be unlocked throughout achievements like: Flawlessing Maestro, wipe to NLK in the depths, reaper 20 people, win 10 ganks, get block broken 5 times before wiping Talents you could get from that: Maestro’s gale as a path, reaper talent that lets you toggle if throwable, a talent that maintains high insanity Boons you could get from that: Juggernaut boon where your resistances raise slightly every time a different enemy hits you, Guarded boon where you are stunned less by posture breaks. Idk did I cook or did I burn the kitchen down (these ideas are random just stupid maybe broken examples but the concept sounds okay)

[@splobby]

This is maybe a controversial bad idea but with this system having echo farming kinda ruins it Make it so each level does NOT give 1 level but rather a multiplier. Reduce the echoes given by everything else by a lot, so then echoes you get are only if you get echoes and actually play the game.

[@5teven__]

As someone who’s been playing since verse 1 I feel like the issue is less one of permadeath and more so some of the things they have added in verse 2, back in verse 1 the goal was just to get a max level build and if you got unlucky you basically just wiped and started over. But now with layer 2 and the much faster progression with the option to reroll your talents and min max your build to the extreme the gap between low power players and players who know what they are doing is giant, so pve players/freshies will just get destroyed by pvp focused builds with those pvp builds being incentivized to do so, not to mention the poor design of layer 2 being all risk little reward or no risk long cooldown

[@SuspiciousSpaghettiVEVO]

the problem with wiping is that its not fun to wipe, especially with the amount of time you're putting into each build. other roguelikes tend to have much shorter runs so the amount of time you lost is much less compared to deepwoken. assuming that you're a relatively experienced player, you're almost never wiping from your own mistakes, it's always because 5 corrupted mobs jump you or someone depths ganks you so you feel out of control of when your build wipes

[@ajplayzfn7982]

Ofc wiping ain't fun. Wiping means u failed and failure isn't rewarding

[@atucapos1823]

womp womp

[@Disconnection595]

Wiping isnt failure that doesnt make any sense. Its literally progress and it is almost guaranteed to happen at some point thats why they literally rank your life and give you echos(a pretty bad award) after you wipe@@ajplayzfn7982

[@deplann5360]

they should make progression faster but also make it easier to wipe. the problem with deepwoken imo is that it takes so long to farm to power 20 and wiping is basically not a threat

[@FanMan_jpg]

2 things that woud help a tun is, number one: making it so that it feels like your accuely making proggres when leveing up, idk how they would do that but something like that. And number 2, make wiping fun, ive started to play alot of risk rain 2 and the system makes me wanna play more even after dying. Wiping shoudnt make you wanna hang your self, it should be encouraging and echos are a step in the right direction but not enough. Maybe add some thing locked behind wiping, like what if all attuments where like shadow and ironsing, making it that so the new players have to start with attumentless and have the turtorial guy tell you that theres magic you can unlock in the outside world. Or what if you could uppgrade your ship and add crew member to the bigger ships like arcane oddesy, and how you get them is by wiping with a special requiement, like you get a barber if you wipe a fade trimmer, or you get the building guy by fixing a boat with the hammer toll thingi and then wiping etc. Ofc ppl would minmax it but for the more cassual players it could be a good addition. Btw if you read my yap, but risk of rain 2!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@noobix5673]

You used to be able to only choose 1 attunument (excluding shadowcast cuz u couldnt choose that) as your starting attunument back in Verse 1, after which you couldnt go any other attunument unless youve unlocked them before via trainer method, i Remember wiping and being flabberghasted as to why i can choose all attunuments

[@Derk6799]

The whole having to unlock magic part (I'm gonna nerd out in a bit, sorry) is that it just wouldn't make sense lore wise, as it's been stated that people can just be born with fire, ice, gale, and thunder. (Irongsing and shadow being man made, thus, needing to be taught)

[@FanMan_jpg]

@@Derk6799 true true i meant like first time unlock for new players

[@FanMan_jpg]

@@noobix5673 yeah i know that but my idea was more that new players got to know about magic thought npcs instead of the charecter screen.

[@noobix5673]

@@FanMan_jpg kinda hard to do that when instead of entering the game straight up you get put into a character screen with attunuments

[@elcanomarioOnYT]

If only deepwoken’s permadeath system was executed perfectly… too bad that… NOTHING CAN BE PERFECT. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@FuroskiGoRawr]

we're bound with the permadeath issue

[@elcanomarioOnYT]

@@FuroskiGoRawr gahhh why are you also a deepwoken content fiend

[@coolman7218]

deepwoken perma death is fun because i like flooding 9v1ing on random max levels at castle light its so funny

[@thegoldenraysoftheglorious1180]

​@@coolman7218the goofball on the bridge with strong left ready to send half your squad to layer two... Or worse...

[@sanddr.]

This one's sanity must've already crumbled

[@AncientFoxBlue]

bro literally everybody in rogue is a voidwalker 😭

[@solan2915]

somehow rogue lineages progression is less linear than deepwoken's. Deepwoken just feels like a set of chores

[@Action_packedmovie7]

fr deep progression been mind numbing since like 2 months after release

[@sanddr.]

true, deep progression is just to1 songseeker/sharko cave threshers depths n bosses

[@adamanadolac5261]

you are kinda right but i feel like with rouge permadeath deep would be unplayable because of how often you actually die (voidwalkers and stuff)

[@adamanadolac5261]

Also i finished like a 10 hour pve build just for it to get wiped by some bots in the depths just as i was about to use it worst feeling ever

[@dickeylow]

I feel like if perma death is removed, levels will be higher, bosses will be way harder, depths is basically the Gulag, voidwalker will be so easy to get and fun to use, contractor will get reworked, he’ll mode will have 150 mobs, and a lot more

[@solan2915]

also, in rogue no matter what you were doing there was always the possibility you might find a PD/artifact/some kind of rare item which kept things exciting and finding one could mean you could progress much faster

[@shadowvii]

With deepbound you can get boosted by a friend and hit power 20 and bell in like 2 hours. You need him to help you kill depths widow over and over

[@nooodlle]

they just need to fix echoes they have so much wasted potential

[@GGSlashValley]

No i think echos are fine how they are rn.

[@wiztrash9530]

@@GGSlashValley nah

[@dogenombres9614]

@GGSlashValley No, they actually need to feel rewarding, since it's hard to get one. ​ Like why do i need to waste Echoes into something not that interesting at all?

[@Jim-jz1fm]

i cannot believe its flawed... i love mambles!

[@Mambles]

I love you too jim…

[@men4014]

@@Mamblesermmm… is this fan grooming?!?!!?!?

[@magoctyus]

@@Mambles address the grooming allegations

[@Mambles]

@@men4014Yes...

[@crusader_gaming8273]

Deepwoken perma death still gives me adrenaline when I see a max level with enchant in depths

[@somerandomperson4586]

Permadeath, build progression, and exploration just don’t mix too well. Exploration requires you to spend time getting there and actually trying to fight off the enemies. Build progression adds a lot of time needed to make a build to have competence in exploration. Permadeath makes it so that you risk having to repeat build progression again, for one chance at taking a stab for exploration. I really think Deepwoken tried using too much for one game. There are certain things that don’t mesh well for an enjoyable experience, these few things are what directly showcases that. Deepwoken can’t achieve that roguelike run feel where you can jump right back into the new things to you, because it takes the time a general rpg game would to progress.

[@qwffefwaffaf]

Thats what drew me in for deepwoken. the genuine struggle, gives so much like morale and shit when i beat a enforcer for the first time. kill my first voidwalker, my first chaser, etc. and the perma death really added more to it, adding a genuine fear to doing things but that excitement of not dying doing it and wanting to become so good at it you dont ever die doing it.

[@barufis5879]

me after wiping a build that took me 3 days too make because i pressed F too late while being ganked in the depths

[@LuanrTanuki]

Between the heavens and the earth I am the one who gets void walked on

[@That_3D_Models_Guy]

ok, let me cook, give us blessings and curses, kinda like them shit from verdant moon, where you can either make it harder for yourself or easier, you can choose to remove the one you have in fragments but your next character gets their one based on how you died

[@Nou-xo3mq]

i get were's he's coming from, it takes awhile to power up, just to wipe and loose that proggress.. but that alone makes power 20 more rewarding due to the difficulty, this is why layer 2 is considered braindead easy, because you have no risks minus running from ethiron, and lagging out

[@KiyoBlackwellEnjoyer]

Ngl if deepwoken had the same wipe system as rogue progressing would be near impossible because of this thing called "Voidwalkers"

[@sayko9303]

They should make it where every wipe, your next run to make a build is easier

[@unignorance7736]

They should make it so you could keep light hook on floor 2, but reduced rewards, like half

[@creepyybozz_332]

when i first started deep i hated the perma death system so much but the more i played the more i started to like the perma death system, most of the wipes are also happening cuz of a big skill issue

[@karaltar7914]

Also I feel like you have to mention the fact that mods can just restore you if you wipe and youre a popular enough content creator, there is a clip of Agamatsu dying and going to the depths and just asking a mod to tp him out because he says hes too lazy. -_-

[@itstibito3920]

Remember when max power level was 60? That was one painful time to grind slots

[@m.nourii5207]

i didn’t play during verse 1, but didn’t that make it easier? like each level was only 5 investment points and you could unstain yourself from leveling up way quicker than you would rn.

[@mihaicovaciu6634]

Rogue at least does not force you at endgame to go farm stuffs with one life left

[@bqwtie2978]

you do kind of get punished for dying as when you reach 20 drowns you begin to fight corrupted bonekeepers and corrupted fury squibbos in your trial

[@jonathanjoestar203]

How bout dying in depths gives a flaw instead of straight up wiping n the flaw is removed by levelling up

[@Hhhh-ze4mo]

I can beat trial of one 50% of the time but I never managed to reach level 20 because I play the game the devs intended. Even tho I have 100 hours on deepwoken and very broad experience my highest progression that got to power 19 wiped to parasites in layer 2 which I had no clue about (Yes I did watch a guide to get a murmur but they didn't mention the parasites)

[@tsukonguyen1750]

I don’t necessarily agree with how you should have checkpoints and stuff but the new player stuff, I 100% agree with, I think voidwalker bounties should only happen to people with a high number of hours on their slots, or have the newer players bounty show up less and the more they play the more it shows ip

[@EternalGale]

if you talk about wiping you used to wipe so many times in rouge way more often people log way more in rouge then I ever seen deepwoken

[@Shiggler]

I’m liking this thumbnail style

[@Sam-mb5zf]

what’s that build you use in the video?

[@L1ghtsamrui]

I'd be pissed if I lost my character that's what holding me back in Dee-woken

[@seraphinereal]

deepwoken is like my favourite game ever, but I can't be bothered to play it anymore. I have bad ping in all servers and there isnt any opportunity for me to learn how to pvp properly without wiping in chime or something, so when some 5yo voidwalker decides to kill me, I just have to accept that I wasted the last 1-40 hours of my freetime and say goodbye to my hard work. Everyone I talk to about deepwoken say they love the game but wont play it because of how tedious the permadeath is. Wiping can still be a feature without permadeath and with the direction that game has been going ever since release, there really isn't any good reason left for permadeath to stay in the game. I want deepwoken to rework the progression to be way more difficult and instead of wiping in the depths just make it so players either choose to wipe, or can respawn over and over until they manage to escape. I feel like this causes no problems and makes everyone happy, bad players that arent good enough to escape can either live in the depths or choose to wipe, good players will feel rewarded and never lose their hard work. W video btw ❤

[@thebruh5745]

The exp curve really fucking sucks. I hope they fix it with conquest.

[@ivanbio7177]

Why should they have a check point if they tryna make a permanent death game

[@Jj-gg7yy]

if u aren’t stupid, you would spend one layer 2 run getting the hook, and the spear, and getting used to it then light hooking out. wait 20 minutes or so, and attempt it with the full 20 minutes to spare which is more than enough time to kill chaser with time still on the light hook

[@dominicballinger6536]

It's just too bad that the game makes you wait 20 real world minutes. Thats just exceedingly stupid

[@boogaooooga1315]

if perma death was straight death for that character and u had to pay to play again it would lose players fast

[@GuardiaGuy]

THE ONLY CORRECT DEEPWOKEN KZbinR, FINALLY

[@Sin-bk6bk]

thats why I was thinking to my self like a system called Blessing these blessing would be like echo modifiers except its reversed instead of making the game harder it would make it easier but give you less echos upon wiping

[@Sin-bk6bk]

also another thing I forgot to say is i think voidwalking should have some kind of elo so you dont get voidwalked as much if your bad or you'll get voidwalked by people your skill level

[@Sc5ch]

That's literally what Echo Upgrades are bro..

[@Sin-bk6bk]

what I meant is like a new player isnt gonna have echos@@Sc5ch

[@Wamaiiz]

I have like 500+ hours in deepwoken at this point. Got my friends to play it cus they liked my streamed gameplay. And now I don’t even know how to make them start playing. My friend recently learned how to do trial of one and after it got immediately wiped by a voidwalker. To get a good start in deepwoken you need to have friends to boost A LOT. Until you learn your way to do it urself. There are no shortcuts. Cus deepwoken is a game for masochists.

[@HolyNewbie]

You have to look at it from the other end of the spectrum though. That build you spent 2 - 3 hours making or possibly more wont wipe for another month or even multiple months if you are an experienced player. In rouge (Which i didn't play so i don't know much about) There was no way to get your lives back i believe therefore your character would wipe faster, but in deepwoken as an experienced player. there is literally NO way to wipe unless you make some stupid mistake or get ganked in depths, which is also preventable by jumping into the void.

[@vanillajellyfish]

there was a way to get lives back in rogue but it was a rare item you had to spend a long time grinding for

[@Spixiez]

buddy must have just wiped lmaoo

[@aCssC]

bro i the way i taught my friend to play deepwoken is i told him to practice parry at vigil after that i made him learn to1 and then i went to prog deepbound with him he learned deep in 2 weeks

[@whis-sk8pi]

i got the game the hour it was released and i have never reached level 60 or 20 lol

[@viniwizi]

Rogue`s progression was almost impossible to do solo( without an alt) and it took hours( mana climb and mana run) but SOMEHOW it was FASTER than deepwoken`s progression. They should NOT and WONT remove permadeath for obvious reasons, but they SHOULD make both progression and wiping easier, because people just progress their lame ass meta builds and perma chime for the rest of their life ( i honestly think they should gut chime as well, but thats not the point here)

[@Abonnoment]

to clarify: I am writing this before watching the video It's flawed, yeah, but that's kinda the point After watching the video: Yeah you're right

[@browhatfrthatscrazybrobruh6991]

Make progression 2x+ faster or completely remove the level cap mechanic so anyone can progress doing whatever they want, and then make obtaining things like bell and murmurs easier or make this game an rpg and make wiping far more difficult (3-5+ lives, easier depths, 2nd chances after the depths, items that let you get lives back etc)

[@Wamaiiz]

Can you slide the buiild?

[@artspb111]

lets wait for verse 3

[@alternate5108]

I find it hard to wipe in this game unless you want to, but not everyone likes to play permadeath cautiously. so they wipe. progression & minmaxing takes waaaay to long tho.

[@FernandoJCruz-kt1zo]

My main issue with perma death in deepwoken is literally other players, your character can get wiped easilly in the dephs because you either get ganked by a guild ganked by randoms or a guy doing contractor oath. 70% of all my deaths in deepwoken was because I died to another player when I was doing pve stuff. Having perma death in a game were people can just kill you easilly is a bad idea, specially when they benefit from killing you such as voidwalkers or contractor progression.

[@asogameing8271]

L take

[@Tiny_bigninja]

its a pvp game lmfao, the game was originally concieved as a pvp oriented game but had pve branch out a little bit because players whined about their skill issue git gud

[@Dysintrious]

bro really said rogue was more beginner friendly when you can get your lives back in deepwoken easy and in rogue you got ultra classes going around the map for no benefit killing people then he goes on to saying that at power 20 you risk everything for almost nothing while in rogue at ultra class you risk everything in pvp for no benefit no gain other than to get stronger similar to deepwoken. this guy really addresses all the issues of deepwoken but never states what the devs did to counteract that and didn't even bring a single problem with rogue and made rogue sound easy for people to start playing.

[@Robloxnormie1st]

you made a right points in the wrong reason.

[@AppleFritterEnjoyer]

Yeah I comeplety see what you mean. I love playing deepwoken but progressing build will probably be the reason why I will quit playing. Even if I play from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to sleep, my builds still wouldn't be maxxed. Really sucks too when you just made a build it gets wiped and now your either forced to pay $10 just to get wiped again or waste 10 hours just to also get wiped again. If your going to make a game with perma-death that is as harsh as this, at least make the progression not feel like a literal 9-5 job. Not even dark souls (which I would assume they take inspiration from) was this grueling. I have so many build ideas but I don't want to spend 10 hours maxing it out just to not find and overworld fights and fight at max an hour in chime just to get deptheds to skulls. One of the main points of the game, (being a hard game where you could lose all your stuff forever) is somehow to worst part of the game.

[@noko3777]

Dumb idea, you can save your character with echos when you're in fragments of yourself

[@RenxTheHedgehog]

1k Echoes for a Last Wind + Echoes cap at 1k. Boom, no more wasting 10 dolars

[@noko3777]

It would even fit perfectly You gain echos after wiping You use echos to NOT wipe Man if only the devs read the suggestions channel

[@keiko3781]

@@noko3777smart suggestion for trying to bring the developer revenue down 💀 Your idea wont be heard at all 😭

[@CTCAgent]

@@RenxTheHedgehogbad idea cuz people can just echo farm for their build back lol

[@shrimpscampi9320]

@@keiko3781 you can pay money for echos. it will make them money and let free-to-play players revive

[@Kolyabaskovfan]

they should improve echoes system and it will be fine

[@lukenator-q3s]

bros best slot got wiped and then made this video

[@professionalshut-in8903]

0:15 there is no way you choked that THAT hard

[@Mambles]

Shhhh, I was focusing on something else at the time...

[@bbrady_]

Hello Mambles from the Mambles youtube channel

[@Mambles]

Hello!

[@gportakal7340]

Yes this is what makes this game replayable. Not saying it's easy to learn but that's why this game still alive

[@Eqiuxx_Qauntumm]

i thought this was kinda obv (no offense) but i think they are just making it more new player friendly like at this point its just like permadeath is kinda Non existent u can just have someone carry you out the depths on ike a pve build or somthing

[@FrRonin]

day 2 of asking to make a vid on the talent "public figure"

[@limabean1029]

lucky enough to find a phoenix down????

[@dogenombres9614]

As a freeshie deepwoken player, i can agree that voidwalkers killing freshies is kinda annoying. I would still play the game to this day if the progression wasnt based out of luck, i like its combat and its concept itself, but the progression is just luck based because of the voidwalkers If i where as strong as them, i could just fight back and parry dodge block, in comparasion i was like a chiwawa figthing a puma

[@GrapeMuncher55]

the problem is the game wasnt made with permadeath in mind, its literally just a mmorpg which has a permadeath system slapped right on it..... it just doesnt work well

[@RainByakushot]

W Ramble You earned a sub from me

[@vitalifranchuk9099]

To start with I think perma-death is good. Idk about ither people, but I joined deepwoken with a couple of friends it was 5 of us in the beginning and after a all those hours of dying and loosing accounts its only 2 of us rn and we got 600h+ in the game, and you know after all these things happened I'm a fan of a risk of losing al that you made in 15hl in 1 minute.

[@gigachad594]

It’s really not that bad even if you are trash at the game progression the new mechanism had made progression for the average player go from 5 hours to like 3-2 to get to max this includes getting bell at power 14 just with it. You don’t even need to be deepbound that’s how good it is

[@CoolerExists]

Well if we’re comparing it to Rogue Lineage, it’s worse in Rogue. At least not everyone in Deepwoken is a Voidwalker, but to progress most classes in Rogue you need to kill 10+ people. Everytime I played Rogue, I’d always get ganked by Shinobi’s on my way to Zombie Scrooms. Or, I get lucky and unlock mana fighting the scrooms, before I die to a Super/Ultra. Over and over again. Menu button doesn’t really help you if they travel to you instantly or hit you with a random ranged attack. When I discovered Deepwoken, it was much more forgiving, letting you regain lives on the surface, and allowing you to cheat death 15 times in the depths before it actually gets hard. It felt so much better. In Rogue, everytime I died I felt a need to wipe to regain my lives. I could be biased though, I started Rogue in early 2023 and I heard ganks started getting bad in 2021.

[@Joemama-jx1is]

That's the point. They don't want people boosting other people's progression. Progressing deepwoken normally is way less tedious and boring than progressing normally in rogue. That's why boosting is such a huge problem in rogue. And the perma death isn't less forgiving either, it's even more tedious. You died and you have to farm 1k silver for a pd by mining all day. That ain't fun

[@vanillajellyfish]

the fact that ragoozer still thinks it's a good idea to assert his design philosophies from rogue into a game that was really not meant to be rogue is kind of concerning in my eyes. A perfect example of this was the original void spire concept until it got toned down to what it was now. The original plan was for there to be a portal that spawns after you send someone to the depths with the voidzone of the voidspire, so that you could follow them down there and wipe them.

[@myqaa2013]

Flaw? Like manic?

[@i_isak1451]

Alright this might be controversial but. In rouge the perma death was much more punishing than in deepwoken. Lets not pretend everyone progs fast in rouge. Unless you got boosted (which was not planned to be part of the game) a ,ere super could take hours to progress. Even if it was technically faster some weird ultra class could come and ruin your progression by killing you. And there is nothing you can do about it. In deepwoken if you get ganked by several level 20 players at least it won’t permanently impact your entire progression in a negative way. In deep you are not punished for simply trying to prog. And wiping is a part of the game. The point is to try, wipe and get better and better with each attempt and try new things. Even if the progression is slower its much more fun compared to rouge which was the exact same all the time with much less variety. Even so if you are making a build and you die you the game gives you several chances to prove you get to keep living. Its far less punishing for new players than rouge ever was and imo way more fun. You can’t tell me you enjoy being attacked by 3 ultras as a super class.

[@Malachiiiii]

BRO GOT AND THE MIC AND SAID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING USEFULL!!!!!🗣🗣🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@Jetstream_Selrach]

Bro was on to nothing with the checkpoints system, nothing in this game is hard enough to need checkpoints 💀

[@Mambles]

They can't make it harder because of permadeath. Look what happened with diluvian (horrible example but you get the point)

[@Jetstream_Selrach]

@@Mambles in de deluvians case it’s high risk high reward, it makes sense to die in there. But in an example like later 2? It doesn’t need checkpoints. If you do you’re hella boosted. Watch a yt vid a couple times over to memorize and then perform after the fact. And you have a Light hook for the easiest bit as long as you aren’t too slow. The only times I’ve ever died in a layer 2 run was disconnects and a couple times that my run it back screwed me over with ethirons ult when I was newer to it. But it really doesn’t take long to learn 90% of the things you’re talking about on here. If it was more difficult then I could see your point about needing checkpoints. But as far as it goes, the game’s pretty lenient in a lot of ways. Ethiron has health packs for if you get low and can’t parry all of his attacks to compensate for them being a bit janky/if you aren’t the best at him since there’s no light hook in his fight. As a whole, checkpoints would go against the very design philosophy of deepwoken, in terms of like if you die you get reset to this safe point. A resting point might make a bit of sense depending on how they handle void tower, but other than that it’s very undeepwoken to have checkpoints. What most people like about the game is the difficulty factor of if you die it can mean losing hours of progress, it forces a sense of mortality but also value to your character, and a need for a certain amount of skill.

[@flappyflap2693]

@@Jetstream_Selrach noooooooooobody and i mean *NOBODY* likes deepwoken's wiping system like 0 people do, everyone hates it's progression, the only thing you see 80% of deepwoken players do is *chimes and nothing else* doubling down on this fact is how players get *2 or more slots just so then they don't have to force themselves into progressing all over again to play the main aspect, pvp*

[@Jetstream_Selrach]

@@flappyflap2693 most people that have a problem with the wiping system is just that it’s too lenient. Even then I hear almost nobody complaining about it. Personally, I like having multiple builds at once. If you want people to wipe more then depths ganking needs to happen more. The issue there is mostly runner builds. Aside from that, when did I mention anything about the wiping system, or it being good?

[@Jetstream_Selrach]

@@Mambles they can, they just need to do it in a fair way, and not a cheap way, like with diluvian mech. If it’s harder in a more fair way then people will adapt I can guarantee it. And Idk what you’re talking about “with what happened with diluvian,” cause as far as I’m aware the only thing that’s happened as a result of it is more people getting better loot by making pve builds and using them in the mechanism.

[@user-xc7sk6ro9f]

You did not stole half of the arguments from small channel who blew up with similar video didn't you?

[@Mambles]

As i said in the video, the points I made in this video have been on my mind for a while now, probably since mid verse 2. The only inspiration from a video was for the title which was ultimately changed. I hope that answers your question

[@branmews]

someone might have wiped

[@nero1697]

Like deepwoken system fit well at the beginning of the game when everyone suck at fighting, but after verse 2 patch and making progression so much easier then before made the permadeath system totally annoying thing.

[@jayfogo]

I dont understand why people get upset about wiping being something somewhat rare or not being as big of a threat like in rogue At the core these two games are different aka different games, deepwoken gives you second chances depending on your own skill level and knowledge on the game, basically how much you've played it, while rogue doesn't Deepwoken found a middleground for casual players and hardcore players from rogue that enjoy how hardcore rogue was. Another thing is that people say the game is too easy etc, not understanding that they've fought the same monsters enough times to not struggle against them, i have friends that recently starte dplaying the game, around 4 weeks ago and they get wiped everytime they get sent to depths. As for the progression speed, yes it can take days if you play casuallyand a day for people who play the game that much. But no matter how fast they make the progession its going to be longer then rogues, cause like i said at the core these games are different we shouldn't really be comparing the two Deepwoken has much more character building then rogue does so of course its going to take that much more time to build your character. And the game does get harder the more you die, aka the depths trial gets harder the more dornws you have You go from an endorcer to fighting a mother thresher, bone keeper , and squibbo in one trial, the difficulty gap between the enforcer and THAT is huge, just that we've played the game long enough for it to not be as much of a challenge to us. Deepwoken rewarding players for the knowledge they gain after wiling several times is absolutely fine, i dont see why thats an issue The more you play the less you wipe, thats not because the game itself is easy, its because you continuously master'd the games mechanics to the point where it seems easy and if you really wanna persist with the difficulty of the game and what not, rememebr deepwoken is supposed to have 9 layers if layer 1 was as diffcult as per say sekuro? Then layer 9 would be something far far harder then W rank probably leas then 5% of the community would be able to have the patience and endurance to wipe so many times in order to beat it. Remember when you wipe players you essentially wipe the time they've spent on making their characters, which is why deepwoken.gives you so many ways to avoid wiping. It makes the game for casual players alot less frustrating to play.

[@mano__diep1318]

they need to remove the exp requirements on higher levels, its just really annoying and makes progression unecessarily more boring, it would also make the game easier for new players since they can get lives back easier

[@justaguy4575]

permadeath would be fine but then it takes 15 hours to do the same monotonous grinding to gte a build and also voidwalkers