PERMADEATH is FLAWED | Deepwoken

[@AphasonicTV]

I feel like the permadeath in Rogue was more fitting in Deepwoken. Rogue functions as a challenge survival, and Deepwoken is more of an RPG. Rogue's progression was challenging, but short, and deepwoken's is tedious, but easy. Although the permadeath feature in Deep was executed well in the lore, it becomes an annoyance more than a challenge. Deepwoken isn't hard, (in the sense that the goals you need to accomplish are basic such as lvling up which can be purely dne by pve which takes more experience than skill) as your progression can be EASILY repliacted, and wiping just makes it more painful. Rogue's progression was always unpredictable, and the permadeath felt relevant. It was a challenge. Something that Deepwoken isn't. (Permadeath is only relevant in the depths...) Deepwoken is a hard game fundamentally, sure, however since the mobs inthis game do the exact same thing over and over, there's no thrill or unpredictability that the player combat experience had, and that's probably why Rogue was so much more fun to replay. It was a fast challenge run, that gave you the thrill of accomplishing something (even if you were boosted dying still felt like a FAIR punishment) This probably also explains why people like playing voidwalker so much, as it makes the game interesting or a change. Although I enjoy PvE, I have to admit that pvp is fundamentally better for a PERMADEATH game. Most of the time Deepwoken just feels like a more punishing dark souls, in the sense that if you were to fight a mob you've never seen before and die, you have to do another 10 hour + progression to reattempt, which is absurd. Permadeath doesn't work in a more PvE focused game. (And since pvp can be COMPLETELY avoided during progression, it's not difficult or unpredictable) Along with the fact that the depths is a joke to most experienced players just makes the permadeath system more of an annoyance. (The life system is also extremely unfair or easy to avoid too) (Rogue's life system was better honestly besides the lack of pds and bs you can die to) But eh, what can you do?

[@Mambles]

Well written and thought out, pinned : )

[@po1son__]

@@Mambles not fun for new players or people who don't play a lot

[@Hunter-jf4ld]

Rogue's progression was not quite short, and definitely harder to progress than in Deepwoken which is just easy and long

[@Minh2438]

If somehow deep remove permadeath bc u start it then i will haunt you 24/7 and never forgive you for this trashy video . Permadeath is super needed i cant even imagine playing deep without permadeayh it is sooo important and the thing that make me love deepwoken. The reason i join deep is bc it has permadeath that it ​@@Mambles

[@DillonMagreveous]

Unless you got yourself a private server, it’s impossible to avoid pvp during pve progression. Yes yes I know that there are some places that voidwalkers can’t directly teleport to but that doesn’t mean they can’t just sail there. The amount of times I’ve been voidwalked at crypt before is criminal. One time I was at the fishing island near vigils and I was voidwalked, th guy fell from the sky(maybe they can teleport to that island idk but if so that just makes it worst) My pain point with voidwalking is that pve players are at such a disadvantage for so many reasons. -Voidwalkers often get the first hit -they can teleport directly to you pretty close to you and can see you through walls -they often attack you when you are low fighting a mob -the threshold to be targeted is too low and/or unbalanced. It’s just frustrating because I’m relatively new but because of my lv I have a maxed out voidwalker who has thousands of hours of experience coming for me so it’s just better for me to combat log. Onetime I joined a server and within 47 seconds a voidwalker teleported to me…

[@Petrol_Sniffa]

let's not act like rogue is beginner friendly. Everyone you see ever is a voidwalker

[@cheese1827]

xd

[@pantommy]

Plus the "no hand holding" being used as an excuse for dumb game design. I love how without a wiki you're just supposed to randomly find your trainers, as if anyone would ever find the shinobi trainer without someone else's guidance. No handholding is an actual crutch word for lazy devs that don't know how to properly allow players to find stuff themselves, these are the so called "wiki games".

[@deepwokensucks8664]

​@pantommy rogue is irrelevant considering that it was a bad game and their no longer working on it, thats like complaining about my 3rd grade essay having spelling errors when I'm in highschool

[@Spruce_XI]

Deepwoken's original vision was as an adventure and exploration game rather then permadeath, they intended on implementing proper quest and stealth systems but ended up scrapping them. What really happened was that ragoozer saw the success that rogue lineage had, and slid permadeath into deepwoken. The reason why permadeath doesn't work in deep isn't just roblox jank, but simply because the concept of permadeath discourages exploration and fighting, You're incentified to use the deepwoken wiki on every corner and inch of the game or risk losing hours of playtime. heck even simple things like dialogue options can you WIPED. Learning certain mob patterns is also flawed. In a boss fight you're supposed to constantly die with each run slowly learning your opponent's moves. But this doesn't work in deepwoken, where dying 3 times resets your progress and you're being carried by your friends throughout your first encounters. Wiping also just ISNT fun especially for how time consuming progressing is. you should atleast gain something from each run, but all you really get are some echoes that you barely have a use for. Lastly, deepwoken has next to no endgame after finishing a build...it's almost always the same generic formula of: >get power 20 >get bell >get gear And the devs know that, this is why they update every single week because their game would literally die once the players realize this. The game is effectively at a dead end, rather then overhauling entire systems and trying to enhance player experience, they branch out into other gamemodes (like chime, br and farming??)

[@k_bow4295]

Completely agree with ragoozer slapping on permadeath on deep when deep shouldnt have it and ragoozer is also the reason we have voidwalkers he saw that rouge was a successful game and wanted to add something very similar so he created voidwalkers and now that is probably the most hated thing rn and voidwalking also makes no sense like nobody likes getting voidwalked and nobody likes voidwalking because its so hard to actually get a good bounty you either go to eastern luminant and pray you arent gonna fight a 2 star getting guarded by a max or you voidwalk at erisia and fight ppl who are new and inexperienced because more experienced players just go to crypt which cant be voidwalked???????? Why is bandit camp the place where less expirienced players go to farm able to get voidwalked but crypt the place where ppl who actually know what they are doing go to farm cant its si backwards because literally everyone goes to crypt right out of trial

[@k_bow4295]

Another this is the only example of being able to retry a boss over and over again learning its patterns is chaser because with a light hook there is 0 risk of dying every other boss you either get boosted or get sent to depths over and over again trying to fight it its a terrible thing for new players because doing duke/ferryman is a good way to get exp but they arent gonna be able to learn it if they are constantly getting sent to depths

[@littleluigi6066]

Lastly, deepwoken has next to no endgame after finishing a build...it's almost always the same generic formula of: >get power 20 >get bell >get gear >kill random players because bored

[@Disconnection595]

Factual bruh i got sent to the depths more times then i could count just to learn dukes moveset

[@pantommy]

@@littleluigi6066 crazy how this was the same thing I was saying 2 years ago, just power 60 instead. Deepwoken, like its world, never really changed.

[@ecksdee5445]

Erm actually "Deepwoken is a difficult game with permanent character loss. Losing characters is a part of the game that should be expected"☝🤓

[@theduke4396]

pfp fits

[@ligmagigma522]

Well said

[@Bossiki3412]

Arcane lineage: We are the same

[@eugenepile7036]

@@Bossiki3412but free

[@solan2915]

it seems like permadeath was supposed to be an important mechanic but it seems like it was just forgotten about. Deepwoken should not even be permadeath anymore

[@april5356]

Deepwoken could be a great RPG or Roguelite if it was just one of them, but it tries to be both at the same time and ends up being less than the sum of its parts, the point of Roguelites is that a singular run will usually at most take an hour so it doesn't matter much if you lose a run because you can try again immediately, RPGs revolve around progressing on a single character for at minimum a couple hours, Deepwoken tries cramming permadeath into a genre not made for permadeath, imagine if WoW wiped all of your data if you died too many times.

[@No-ih4fb]

void walkers have to be the most annoying and inconvenient things in deepwoken

[@notnosey]

womp womp

[@eatmynutsarchmage4883]

they dont need esp or a teleport

[@j_racc]

@@eatmynutsarchmage4883???

[@blazeingsonicthegod8417]

​@@eatmynutsarchmage4883 spoke like a true permafreshie

[@speedlife735]

​@eatmynutsarchmage4883 no no remove the tp back to voidheart (the set spawn for free card) keep the esp when you tp to catch people, and just make voidwalkers reset cooldown shorter.

[@placeowner]

Deepwoken is a game with little to no hand holding,

[@Kimimaru1581]

Light hook?

[@IFIDIEWEALLDIE]

@@Kimimaru1581only 20 minutes

[@Kimimaru1581]

@@IFIDIEWEALLDIE 20 mins of consequence free learning

[@IFIDIEWEALLDIE]

@@Kimimaru1581 "Deepwoken is a game with little to no hand holding" read it slower

[@JaronPalone]

@@Kimimaru1581Good luck even getting to caste light as a beginner without getting jumped and depths ganked

[@noobyish]

echoes helped a LITTLE bit with the no reward for wiping issue but it simply isn't enough

[@zakibzrahh5371]

Shouldn’t get a reward for wiping. It doesn’t make logical sense for the game to reward you for losing. I agree with echos as it’s a little bonus for future runs but realistically what reward are u looking for when u lost?

[@SorinSero]

the reward is gaining experience to help you not wipe the next time

[@Mirak-el]

@@zakibzrahh5371 I just don't think to wipe = to lose. I think that's why you think its illogical.

[@EBCHC]

@@SorinSero yeah but the conection lost in a fight its not experience for you. In addition to all other injusticies like the ratswalkers. The problem is not lose your loot, the problem is having to repeat everything cuz of the other players with a better build, equipment and experience than yours. This would also not be a problem if it were not because you have limited lives and once you are attacked they do not let you escape because of the state of danger that lasts longer than the state that the NPCs leaves you. It also doesn't let you use your glider and it has no logic of why not, if at least they want to do everything realistic because they should also let the glider use in danger. This is absurd, the game is fun but it reaches a point where it is no longer fun to have to repeat everything because of factors that you can't control and that depend on your luck.

[@Archeonio]

@@zakibzrahh5371 Thing is that nothing about wiping is interesting or fun, there's games that make losing feel fair or deserved, in deepwoken it's so mentally exhausting to wipe because then you have to do the same progressing because its always the same in deepwoken, for like a whole day to get your build again and maybe max it. You don't feel like you learned something new and that you will use that newfound knowledge to do better this time 99% of the times, you're simply frustated because you wasted your time for basically nothing

[@VIOLENT6]

Life restore denied because power outages are counted as hardware issues 😨

[@MarukaiX]

Another flaw of the game.. I hate how that can just happen

[@rottenthestone5845]

honestly i can understand your point i got ganked in depths after spending like 3 days to finish a build it literally shattered my soul tbh sometimes i just dont feel like grinding i just wanna get to the fun part and pvp in this game is very ping reliant which is a huge disadvantage for perma high pings like me

[@HavilandBerg]

Only thing I hate about wiping in deepwoken is things like Miserables where you can wipe for just picking a dialogue option. I’ve never personally experienced this but on paper it’s a horrible decision.

[@arson6579]

Dawg he literally says he will search your spine if you lie to them. WHATD YOU EXPECT?

[@Henry28a]

​​​@@arson6579 all it does is discourage people from exploration and trying things out for themselves. why would I talk to random npcs if I knew there was a chance they could wipe me and make me lose hours of progress and time.

[@eatthetree348]

@@Henry28a read the dialogue :🚫 complain: ✅

[@Archeonio]

@@eatthetree348 imagine wiping to a literal dialogue on a build that you've been working on for 10+ hours

[@eatthetree348]

@@Archeonio yo facts let me trash talk the guy who just made 5 DUDES heads EXPLODE

[@Lemantra]

I honestly dont understand why the devs removed the permadeath boon

[@camel3043]

whats that again? i forgor

[@EnderSalad]

@@camel3043I imagine that meant that at one point Deepwoken was not permadeath but you had the option to choose so

[@DewyTheBigBoy]

@@EnderSalad Hes joking this boon never existed lol

[@deplann5360]

they should make progression faster but also make it easier to wipe. the problem with deepwoken imo is that it takes so long to farm to power 20 and wiping is basically not a threat

[@incription]

the only time I die in deep is when I get ganked randomly and its just annoying its not even ffun being in the depths and fighting 4-5 people on pvp builds

[@solan2915]

somehow rogue lineages progression is less linear than deepwoken's. Deepwoken just feels like a set of chores

[@Action_packedmovie7]

fr deep progression been mind numbing since like 2 months after release

[@sanddr.]

true, deep progression is just to1 songseeker/sharko cave threshers depths n bosses

[@arandomcrusader8822]

Ngl they should add a mechanic where instead of permadeath each time you die in the depths/layer 2 you become more crippled or disabled, to the point where you're just paraplegic with only one working arm and can only either crawl or get a wheelchair, and to fix it you have to escape the depths and find an npc called Scrumblo Grumpin to make you no longer crippled

[@Mambles]

SCRUMBLO GRUMPIN!!!

[@Jim-jz1fm]

i cannot believe its flawed... i love mambles!

[@Mambles]

I love you too jim…

[@sigmafella]

@@Mamblesermmm… is this fan grooming?!?!!?!?

[@magoctyus]

@@Mambles address the grooming allegations

[@Mambles]

@@sigmafellaYes...

[@5teven__]

As someone who’s been playing since verse 1 I feel like the issue is less one of permadeath and more so some of the things they have added in verse 2, back in verse 1 the goal was just to get a max level build and if you got unlucky you basically just wiped and started over. But now with layer 2 and the much faster progression with the option to reroll your talents and min max your build to the extreme the gap between low power players and players who know what they are doing is giant, so pve players/freshies will just get destroyed by pvp focused builds with those pvp builds being incentivized to do so, not to mention the poor design of layer 2 being all risk little reward or no risk long cooldown

[@elcanomarioOnYT]

If only deepwoken’s permadeath system was executed perfectly… too bad that… NOTHING CAN BE PERFECT. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@FuroskiGoRawr]

we're bound with the permadeath issue

[@elcanomarioOnYT]

@@FuroskiGoRawr gahhh why are you also a deepwoken content fiend

[@coolman7218]

deepwoken perma death is fun because i like flooding 9v1ing on random max levels at castle light its so funny

[@thegoldenraysoftheglorious1180]

​@@coolman7218the goofball on the bridge with strong left ready to send half your squad to layer two... Or worse...

[@sanddr.]

This one's sanity must've already crumbled

[@Ambatu31]

Hear me out each time u die with a power 20 character with bell and all u get a boost to xp nothing like crazy just a lil boosts that stacks and has a cap. ( i know i cooked)

[@SuspiciousSpaghettiVEVO]

the problem with wiping is that its not fun to wipe, especially with the amount of time you're putting into each build. other roguelikes tend to have much shorter runs so the amount of time you lost is much less compared to deepwoken. assuming that you're a relatively experienced player, you're almost never wiping from your own mistakes, it's always because 5 corrupted mobs jump you or someone depths ganks you so you feel out of control of when your build wipes

[@ajplayzfn7982]

Ofc wiping ain't fun. Wiping means u failed and failure isn't rewarding

[@atucapos1823]

womp womp

[@Disconnection595]

Wiping isnt failure that doesnt make any sense. Its literally progress and it is almost guaranteed to happen at some point thats why they literally rank your life and give you echos(a pretty bad award) after you wipe@@ajplayzfn7982

[@littlehamham3281]

reminder that deepwoken is a roguelite not a roguelike

[@oskarox06]

ironic that just now people are realizing how flawd the whole system is, it always has been, thats one of the reasons i see none of my die hard friends play the game anymore, cuz it just takes too long and its boring to do the same thing for 2 hours just to get wiped cuz void walker ganked you and then someone was bored in depths

[@somerandomperson4586]

Permadeath, build progression, and exploration just don’t mix too well. Exploration requires you to spend time getting there and actually trying to fight off the enemies. Build progression adds a lot of time needed to make a build to have competence in exploration. Permadeath makes it so that you risk having to repeat build progression again, for one chance at taking a stab for exploration. I really think Deepwoken tried using too much for one game. There are certain things that don’t mesh well for an enjoyable experience, these few things are what directly showcases that. Deepwoken can’t achieve that roguelike run feel where you can jump right back into the new things to you, because it takes the time a general rpg game would to progress.

[@AncientFoxBlue]

bro literally everybody in rogue is a voidwalker 😭

[@FanMan_jpg]

2 things that woud help a tun is, number one: making it so that it feels like your accuely making proggres when leveing up, idk how they would do that but something like that. And number 2, make wiping fun, ive started to play alot of risk rain 2 and the system makes me wanna play more even after dying. Wiping shoudnt make you wanna hang your self, it should be encouraging and echos are a step in the right direction but not enough. Maybe add some thing locked behind wiping, like what if all attuments where like shadow and ironsing, making it that so the new players have to start with attumentless and have the turtorial guy tell you that theres magic you can unlock in the outside world. Or what if you could uppgrade your ship and add crew member to the bigger ships like arcane oddesy, and how you get them is by wiping with a special requiement, like you get a barber if you wipe a fade trimmer, or you get the building guy by fixing a boat with the hammer toll thingi and then wiping etc. Ofc ppl would minmax it but for the more cassual players it could be a good addition. Btw if you read my yap, but risk of rain 2!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@noobix5673]

You used to be able to only choose 1 attunument (excluding shadowcast cuz u couldnt choose that) as your starting attunument back in Verse 1, after which you couldnt go any other attunument unless youve unlocked them before via trainer method, i Remember wiping and being flabberghasted as to why i can choose all attunuments

[@Derk6799]

The whole having to unlock magic part (I'm gonna nerd out in a bit, sorry) is that it just wouldn't make sense lore wise, as it's been stated that people can just be born with fire, ice, gale, and thunder. (Irongsing and shadow being man made, thus, needing to be taught)

[@FanMan_jpg]

@@Derk6799 true true i meant like first time unlock for new players

[@FanMan_jpg]

@@noobix5673 yeah i know that but my idea was more that new players got to know about magic thought npcs instead of the charecter screen.

[@noobix5673]

@@FanMan_jpg kinda hard to do that when instead of entering the game straight up you get put into a character screen with attunuments

[@splobby]

Cap echoes at like 100, but make it increasable when you get ranks (W rank, etc.) up to 500. Then make an echo shop at the new character customize screen that lets you buy echo talents or even boons (new ones not like engage) These talents are exclusive to the slot and lost when wiped New stuff can be unlocked throughout achievements like: Flawlessing Maestro, wipe to NLK in the depths, reaper 20 people, win 10 ganks, get block broken 5 times before wiping Talents you could get from that: Maestro’s gale as a path, reaper talent that lets you toggle if throwable, a talent that maintains high insanity Boons you could get from that: Juggernaut boon where your resistances raise slightly every time a different enemy hits you, Guarded boon where you are stunned less by posture breaks. Idk did I cook or did I burn the kitchen down (these ideas are random just stupid maybe broken examples but the concept sounds okay)

[@splobby]

This is maybe a controversial bad idea but with this system having echo farming kinda ruins it Make it so each level does NOT give 1 level but rather a multiplier. Reduce the echoes given by everything else by a lot, so then echoes you get are only if you get echoes and actually play the game.

[@littlehamham3281]

terrible idea because pve is boring im not spending 20 hours doing pve for w rank so i can get an advantage in pve and ive got like 50 slots over several accounts, too many echos, and if you want a specific talent on a new build you have to spend 30 minutes echos farming before you can start didnt realize im 6 months late btw but you get it

[@splobby]

@@littlehamham3281 games are supposed to reward u for being good at the game though

[@splobby]

@@littlehamham3281 a lot of what u said kinda doesnt apply but thats too much rephrasing and im lazy

[@seraphinereal]

deepwoken is like my favourite game ever, but I can't be bothered to play it anymore. I have bad ping in all servers and there isnt any opportunity for me to learn how to pvp properly without wiping in chime or something, so when some 5yo voidwalker decides to kill me, I just have to accept that I wasted the last 1-40 hours of my freetime and say goodbye to my hard work. Everyone I talk to about deepwoken say they love the game but wont play it because of how tedious the permadeath is. Wiping can still be a feature without permadeath and with the direction that game has been going ever since release, there really isn't any good reason left for permadeath to stay in the game. I want deepwoken to rework the progression to be way more difficult and instead of wiping in the depths just make it so players either choose to wipe, or can respawn over and over until they manage to escape. I feel like this causes no problems and makes everyone happy, bad players that arent good enough to escape can either live in the depths or choose to wipe, good players will feel rewarded and never lose their hard work. W video btw ❤

[@FernandoJCruz-kt1zo]

My main issue with perma death in deepwoken is literally other players, your character can get wiped easilly in the dephs because you either get ganked by a guild ganked by randoms or a guy doing contractor oath. 70% of all my deaths in deepwoken was because I died to another player when I was doing pve stuff. Having perma death in a game were people can just kill you easilly is a bad idea, specially when they benefit from killing you such as voidwalkers or contractor progression.

[@asogameing8271]

L take

[@Tiny_bigninja]

its a pvp game lmfao, the game was originally concieved as a pvp oriented game but had pve branch out a little bit because players whined about their skill issue git gud

[@lucky9293]

@@Tiny_bigninja 63.116.61.253

[@lucky9293]

this you?

[@adamanadolac5261]

you are kinda right but i feel like with rouge permadeath deep would be unplayable because of how often you actually die (voidwalkers and stuff)

[@adamanadolac5261]

Also i finished like a 10 hour pve build just for it to get wiped by some bots in the depths just as i was about to use it worst feeling ever

[@dickeylow]

I feel like if perma death is removed, levels will be higher, bosses will be way harder, depths is basically the Gulag, voidwalker will be so easy to get and fun to use, contractor will get reworked, he’ll mode will have 150 mobs, and a lot more

[@noko3777]

Dumb idea, you can save your character with echos when you're in fragments of yourself

[@RenxTheHedgehog]

1k Echoes for a Last Wind + Echoes cap at 1k. Boom, no more wasting 10 dolars

[@noko3777]

It would even fit perfectly You gain echos after wiping You use echos to NOT wipe Man if only the devs read the suggestions channel

[@keiko3781]

@@noko3777smart suggestion for trying to bring the developer revenue down 💀 Your idea wont be heard at all 😭

[@CTCAgent]

@@RenxTheHedgehogbad idea cuz people can just echo farm for their build back lol

[@shrimpscampi9320]

@@keiko3781 you can pay money for echos. it will make them money and let free-to-play players revive

[@itstibito3920]

Remember when max power level was 60? That was one painful time to grind slots

[@m.nourii5207]

i didn’t play during verse 1, but didn’t that make it easier? like each level was only 5 investment points and you could unstain yourself from leveling up way quicker than you would rn.

[@nooodlle]

they just need to fix echoes they have so much wasted potential

[@GGSlashValley]

No i think echos are fine how they are rn.

[@wiztrash9530]

@@GGSlashValley nah

[@dogenombres9614]

@GGSlashValley No, they actually need to feel rewarding, since it's hard to get one. ​ Like why do i need to waste Echoes into something not that interesting at all?

[@elirosen18]

I’m liking this thumbnail style

[@LuanrTanuki]

Between the heavens and the earth I am the one who gets void walked on

[@crusader_gaming8273]

Deepwoken perma death still gives me adrenaline when I see a max level with enchant in depths

[@barufis5879]

me after wiping a build that took me 3 days too make because i pressed F too late while being ganked in the depths

[@spikytoaster]

I love how most peoples excuse for permadeath is "B-but its so unique and makes the game different." Yea but sometimes unique does not mean good. People need to use thier brains and realize how permadeath is flawwed instead of blindly defending it but thats a lot to ask from a Roblox game community I guess lol.

[@shadowvii]

With deepbound you can get boosted by a friend and hit power 20 and bell in like 2 hours. You need him to help you kill depths widow over and over

[@mano__diep1318]

they need to remove the exp requirements on higher levels, its just really annoying and makes progression unecessarily more boring, it would also make the game easier for new players since they can get lives back easier

[@boozados]

The game is too deep in to the point where you might as well make a different game if you want an improvement. No more cash cow if permadeath is removed and people who spent money on restores or wiped in general will go “huh”

[@viniwizi]

Rogue`s progression was almost impossible to do solo( without an alt) and it took hours( mana climb and mana run) but SOMEHOW it was FASTER than deepwoken`s progression. They should NOT and WONT remove permadeath for obvious reasons, but they SHOULD make both progression and wiping easier, because people just progress their lame ass meta builds and perma chime for the rest of their life ( i honestly think they should gut chime as well, but thats not the point here)

[@Wamaiiz]

I have like 500+ hours in deepwoken at this point. Got my friends to play it cus they liked my streamed gameplay. And now I don’t even know how to make them start playing. My friend recently learned how to do trial of one and after it got immediately wiped by a voidwalker. To get a good start in deepwoken you need to have friends to boost A LOT. Until you learn your way to do it urself. There are no shortcuts. Cus deepwoken is a game for masochists.

[@Alkoholismuss]

to clarify: I am writing this before watching the video It's flawed, yeah, but that's kinda the point After watching the video: Yeah you're right

[@GuardiaGuy]

THE ONLY CORRECT DEEPWOKEN KZbinR, FINALLY

[@weiss4845]

Just block parry dodge

[@solan2915]

also, in rogue no matter what you were doing there was always the possibility you might find a PD/artifact/some kind of rare item which kept things exciting and finding one could mean you could progress much faster

[@That_3D_Models_Guy]

ok, let me cook, give us blessings and curses, kinda like them shit from verdant moon, where you can either make it harder for yourself or easier, you can choose to remove the one you have in fragments but your next character gets their one based on how you died

[@justinrush7463]

Ultimately, the problem lies in Deepwoken's identity. Permadeath only exists to make the game hard. If we really want to categorize Deepwoken as a roguelike, then it's a really bad one. In Roguelikes, death is just a step to power. In Deepwoken, losing your character is nothing but annoying. Unfortunately, so many of Deepwoken's systems are built around permadeath. There's utter BS like Corrupted Blood Scourge. CBS has literally one purpose, and that's toxicity. There's no benefit to doing something like that except trying to be toxic. Permadeath is the cause of nearly every problem with Deepwoken. The need of guides, the voidwalker problem, the new player experience, almost every issue people have with this game spawn from the flaws of permadeath. The only reason Deepwoken has permadeath is because "it's difficult". This terrible system that turns its players against each other, and undermines every other aspect of the game. Exploration, engaging in combat, playing on your own, build creation, trying to experience things authentically-- Everything else falls apart because of the risks of permadeath. One of two things needs to happen. Death needs to bring growth to the next life, or permadeath just shouldn't exist. Deepwoken's echo system is laughable. It's the biggest nothing in this universe. It only helps those who already could get to endgame. What should happen when you die is that some of the growth from your current life transfers over to the next one, and through continuous runs of the game you can *eventually* build up a life that is the combined realization of what you're trying to build, through processes like talent or item inheritance. This would lean into making the game more of a roguelike, essentially using checkpoints to limit the effects of losing a life. OR, you just get rid of this mess. If people want to make another build they'll delete their slot. Death can have setbacks other than losing all of your progress. You already lose items, and money. Make it like Hollow Knight where you lose some of your strength (Like losing your weapons and armor too) but your core stats are still there, allowing you to still have the ability to get stuff, you just have to find it again. Because permadeath exposes Deepwoken for what it currently is, a combat game with arbitrary progression put behind it for some reason, just like every roblox anime game.

[@jonathanjoestar203]

How bout dying in depths gives a flaw instead of straight up wiping n the flaw is removed by levelling up

[@ThatIdiotNamedKiyo]

Ngl if deepwoken had the same wipe system as rogue progressing would be near impossible because of this thing called "Voidwalkers"

[@L1ghtsamrui]

I'd be pissed if I lost my character that's what holding me back in Dee-woken

[@necro7612]

Deepwoken's just the kind of game that is only really enjoyable until you actually dive deeper into it, the PVP of the game the balance and the fact that once you're skilled enough, the only way youre wiping is either to another player or a COMPLETELY BULLSHIT situation, which just makes wiping feel all the more worse

[@CoolerExists]

Well if we’re comparing it to Rogue Lineage, it’s worse in Rogue. At least not everyone in Deepwoken is a Voidwalker, but to progress most classes in Rogue you need to kill 10+ people. Everytime I played Rogue, I’d always get ganked by Shinobi’s on my way to Zombie Scrooms. Or, I get lucky and unlock mana fighting the scrooms, before I die to a Super/Ultra. Over and over again. Menu button doesn’t really help you if they travel to you instantly or hit you with a random ranged attack. When I discovered Deepwoken, it was much more forgiving, letting you regain lives on the surface, and allowing you to cheat death 15 times in the depths before it actually gets hard. It felt so much better. In Rogue, everytime I died I felt a need to wipe to regain my lives. I could be biased though, I started Rogue in early 2023 and I heard ganks started getting bad in 2021.

[@mihaicovaciu6634]

Rogue at least does not force you at endgame to go farm stuffs with one life left

[@karaltar7914]

Also I feel like you have to mention the fact that mods can just restore you if you wipe and youre a popular enough content creator, there is a clip of Agamatsu dying and going to the depths and just asking a mod to tp him out because he says hes too lazy. -_-

[@Nou-xo3mq]

i get were's he's coming from, it takes awhile to power up, just to wipe and loose that proggress.. but that alone makes power 20 more rewarding due to the difficulty, this is why layer 2 is considered braindead easy, because you have no risks minus running from ethiron, and lagging out

[@ivanbio7177]

Why should they have a check point if they tryna make a permanent death game

[@zakuszakus9411]

I have played deepwoken since day 1 and I can say that I really like how its done currently like wiping a build is way harder now leveling up is way easier now. Also the fact that it takes so much time making a build is one of the reason why people love their builds so much without it I wouldnt feel the same joy after winning a 1v1 or a gank in the depths because there was a big risk but the rewards is this feeling of happiness that you feel after winning so even if you wipe 30 times if you can win 1 time its worth it and also its normal for new players to wipe again and again and again personally I wiped over 300 times before having my first level 60 slot and wipe over 600 times before my first bell but its because of all those wipes that getting to level 60 or getting my bell felt so rewarding

[@oapiy5840]

yapatron

[@stormseye1]

That's the Spirit of a Veteran, same here!

[@flappyflap2693]

yea gonna be real you'd only be happy with shit like this if you didn't play any permadeath game 20 times better than deepwoken (rogue lineage) making a build is the most boring shit of deepwoken you can do and wiping one is so annoying because it takes you 50 light years to get the specific stats/build regardless of what trying to make only reason why bells are "cool" is because they spare you from repeating the mind-numbing process of making a slot

[@zakuszakus9411]

@@flappyflap2693 rogue is not better then current deepwoken rogue is the most unbalanced thing ever

[@flappyflap2693]

​@@zakuszakus9411 i can already tell u haven't played rogue and ur just mindlessly glazing deepwoken as if visionshapper doesn't exist or any contractor with eclipse kick is just some simple dream or some random dude with a posers build that anyone can access easily

[@Dysintrious]

bro really said rogue was more beginner friendly when you can get your lives back in deepwoken easy and in rogue you got ultra classes going around the map for no benefit killing people then he goes on to saying that at power 20 you risk everything for almost nothing while in rogue at ultra class you risk everything in pvp for no benefit no gain other than to get stronger similar to deepwoken. this guy really addresses all the issues of deepwoken but never states what the devs did to counteract that and didn't even bring a single problem with rogue and made rogue sound easy for people to start playing.

[@GrapeMuncher55]

the problem is the game wasnt made with permadeath in mind, its literally just a mmorpg which has a permadeath system slapped right on it..... it just doesnt work well

[@browhatfrthatscrazybrobruh6991]

Make progression 2x+ faster or completely remove the level cap mechanic so anyone can progress doing whatever they want, and then make obtaining things like bell and murmurs easier or make this game an rpg and make wiping far more difficult (3-5+ lives, easier depths, 2nd chances after the depths, items that let you get lives back etc)

[@gportakal7340]

Yes this is what makes this game replayable. Not saying it's easy to learn but that's why this game still alive

[@Spixiez]

buddy must have just wiped lmaoo

[@unignorance7736]

They should make it so you could keep light hook on floor 2, but reduced rewards, like half

[@GalaxyIrish]

"What game doesn't have a checkpoint, especially something that is really really difficult" Roguelikes, Y'know the main genre Deepwoken takes from?

[@Jetstream_Selrach]

Fr bros whining about the game genre not being how he wants it to be 😭

[@jakob3708]

if this is a roguelike, then it's an ass one

[@Jetstream_Selrach]

@@jakob3708 it’s not a rogue like tard, it takes inspiration from them in that you restart when you completely die.

[@Blopusanian]

@@Jetstream_Selrach It's a shit game with inspiration from rogue likes.

[@Jetstream_Selrach]

@@Blopusanian sounds like a skill issue lmao. besides, you came on here with your real name, being Matthew Joseph (the whitest name ever lmfao) and decided to pipe tf up instead of reading the comment. I never made the argument that it was a rogue lite or rogue like, just that it takes inspiration from it. perchance we should learn to read above a third grade proficiency level before yapping away ever again lil bro.

[@creepyybozz_332]

when i first started deep i hated the perma death system so much but the more i played the more i started to like the perma death system, most of the wipes are also happening cuz of a big skill issue

[@tsukonguyen1750]

I don’t necessarily agree with how you should have checkpoints and stuff but the new player stuff, I 100% agree with, I think voidwalker bounties should only happen to people with a high number of hours on their slots, or have the newer players bounty show up less and the more they play the more it shows ip

[@HolyNewbie]

You have to look at it from the other end of the spectrum though. That build you spent 2 - 3 hours making or possibly more wont wipe for another month or even multiple months if you are an experienced player. In rouge (Which i didn't play so i don't know much about) There was no way to get your lives back i believe therefore your character would wipe faster, but in deepwoken as an experienced player. there is literally NO way to wipe unless you make some stupid mistake or get ganked in depths, which is also preventable by jumping into the void.

[@vanillajellyfish]

there was a way to get lives back in rogue but it was a rare item you had to spend a long time grinding for

[@bqwtie2978]

you do kind of get punished for dying as when you reach 20 drowns you begin to fight corrupted bonekeepers and corrupted fury squibbos in your trial

[@iamayumpig]

i disagree that progression should be shortened. i believe that rogue lineage has a better permadeath system at the endgame. it makes the game a lot riskier to play and fighting other players is a lot more fun with stakes but it is still very flawed. it's progression is based on killing other players and even with the lowered requirements, you need like 30 grips without dying 3 times in order to get ultra. this pushes players to boost and it takes no effort to progress for people with progressed friends while those without progressed friends are unable to progress far. deepwoken's progression is a lot more solo friendly being able to give a bigger safety net for experienced players. even if the skill requirement to consistently escape the depths isnt that high, it gives a reason for players to try to improve and get better. progression now is a big part of deepwoken because most of the content revolves around making different builds and making builds easily boostable would kill so much of the game's content already. deepwoken is not rogue lineage or a sequal to rogue lineage so why compare its progression speed to each other. you also can't complain about deepwoken not having a safety net for new players when rogue had a lot more reasons to kill lower progressed players. it could be for tomeless, silver, bounds, rots, grips or just for fun. i've had many rogue progressions ended just through other ultras needing to grip me for various reasons. in deepwoken you can easily improve enough to be able to constantly escape the depths without wiping and that is what deepwoken's permadeath is meant to do. right now i agree it rarely happens towards experienced players and its mostly new players that wipe but thats meant to push them to improve where rogue lineage requires you just to get lucky finding a pd to not wipe. deepwoken's permadeath system isnt perfect but risking your slots to improve and get better loot is meant to push players to learn and improve. you might wipe doing layer 2 floor 2 the first time but after doing it multiple times and practicing, an experienced player can easily solo ethiron without even doubting they would wipe.

[@Mambles]

Good opinion!

[@dexwastaken1259]

yup, in my opinion deepwoken the consequences are much more apparent, forcing people to generally make smarter decisions. Sure, there situations where death is unavoidable like getting raped by 3 sharkos as a power 4 deepbound which get pretty annoying. But it forces you to make smarter decisions, for example not to stray too far from castle light. Imo, if deepwoken didnt have a permadeath system the new players would learn to approach the game in a more brute force method which i think although might be more fun at the start, would start to seem like any other rpg type game where you level, max out your build and wallah youre done, you can do whatever you want now without any consequences. With the permadeath however its not as easy to be doing that without eventually having something bite you in the ass, people have a lot more reason to put you on a guild kos list if you wipe them, people have a lot more of a reason to spin back on you if you on their “main” if you gank them. None of this would be too much of an issue if people still have their progress and could just move on, the thing is wiping is meant to be something you want to avoid at all costs. but of course its a double edged sword, sometimes players are more reluctant to learn due to fear of wiping, people wipe to various unfair reasons which unless you get a restore would be very demotivating.

[@CrustBucket]

i think they should lower the exp requirements at like power 17-18+ by like 25% or something, but it makes more sense with how deep woken plays for a progression to take like less than a a few hours even if you're boosted, good take fr.

[@GGSlashValley]

They need to add ability to wipe people from overworld.

[@ixoyy]

bro is crazy

[@professionalshut-in8903]

0:15 there is no way you choked that THAT hard

[@Mambles]

Shhhh, I was focusing on something else at the time...

[@dogenombres9614]

As a freeshie deepwoken player, i can agree that voidwalkers killing freshies is kinda annoying. I would still play the game to this day if the progression wasnt based out of luck, i like its combat and its concept itself, but the progression is just luck based because of the voidwalkers If i where as strong as them, i could just fight back and parry dodge block, in comparasion i was like a chiwawa figthing a puma

[@boogaooooga1315]

if perma death was straight death for that character and u had to pay to play again it would lose players fast

[@jaimerose9297]

If theres no risk, im not going to try at all. I like deepwoken because of the risk and losing hours of progression that makes me try as hard as I can to win depths ganks, bosses, and other things. Removing it or adding checkpoints will just ruin the fun for me and a lot of other players. I honestly wish deepwoken was less forgiving because you have to die in the overworld twice to even get sent to the depths (of which is mad easy to escape from) and if you get ganked there you can just jump into layer 2 which is super easy to escape from. Now theres the "if your over 60% and in pve combat you have a chance to live if you crash". And after all that if you still somehow wipe there last wind and restores if you died to a bug/crashes. I disagree with the checkpoints and maybe they can make progression faster but I personally find it fun. Compared to layer 1 progression, you can get a build done in three times the speed so they are making it faster but you all keep complaining its not enough. The only issue I would say there is, is the slow boating from island to island.

[@Mambles]

The only problem is, they can't make it more difficult because then people would complain about wiping too often. That's what is wrong with deepwokens permadeath. Same thing happened with dilluvian, even though it was horribly balanced, People got the impossible difficulty they wanted and it was horrible. I am all for the game being more difficult, but there needs to be a way to easily bounce back.

[@EternalGale]

if you talk about wiping you used to wipe so many times in rouge way more often people log way more in rouge then I ever seen deepwoken

[@sayko9303]

They should make it where every wipe, your next run to make a build is easier

[@lucyebrada2950]

bro is not cooking lol

[@Joemama-jx1is]

That's the point. They don't want people boosting other people's progression. Progressing deepwoken normally is way less tedious and boring than progressing normally in rogue. That's why boosting is such a huge problem in rogue. And the perma death isn't less forgiving either, it's even more tedious. You died and you have to farm 1k silver for a pd by mining all day. That ain't fun

[@vanillajellyfish]

the fact that ragoozer still thinks it's a good idea to assert his design philosophies from rogue into a game that was really not meant to be rogue is kind of concerning in my eyes. A perfect example of this was the original void spire concept until it got toned down to what it was now. The original plan was for there to be a portal that spawns after you send someone to the depths with the voidzone of the voidspire, so that you could follow them down there and wipe them.

[@thebruh5745]

The exp curve really fucking sucks. I hope they fix it with conquest.

[@i_isak1451]

Alright this might be controversial but. In rouge the perma death was much more punishing than in deepwoken. Lets not pretend everyone progs fast in rouge. Unless you got boosted (which was not planned to be part of the game) a ,ere super could take hours to progress. Even if it was technically faster some weird ultra class could come and ruin your progression by killing you. And there is nothing you can do about it. In deepwoken if you get ganked by several level 20 players at least it won’t permanently impact your entire progression in a negative way. In deep you are not punished for simply trying to prog. And wiping is a part of the game. The point is to try, wipe and get better and better with each attempt and try new things. Even if the progression is slower its much more fun compared to rouge which was the exact same all the time with much less variety. Even so if you are making a build and you die you the game gives you several chances to prove you get to keep living. Its far less punishing for new players than rouge ever was and imo way more fun. You can’t tell me you enjoy being attacked by 3 ultras as a super class.

[@Robloxnormie1st]

you made a right points in the wrong reason.

[@jayfogo]

I dont understand why people get upset about wiping being something somewhat rare or not being as big of a threat like in rogue At the core these two games are different aka different games, deepwoken gives you second chances depending on your own skill level and knowledge on the game, basically how much you've played it, while rogue doesn't Deepwoken found a middleground for casual players and hardcore players from rogue that enjoy how hardcore rogue was. Another thing is that people say the game is too easy etc, not understanding that they've fought the same monsters enough times to not struggle against them, i have friends that recently starte dplaying the game, around 4 weeks ago and they get wiped everytime they get sent to depths. As for the progression speed, yes it can take days if you play casuallyand a day for people who play the game that much. But no matter how fast they make the progession its going to be longer then rogues, cause like i said at the core these games are different we shouldn't really be comparing the two Deepwoken has much more character building then rogue does so of course its going to take that much more time to build your character. And the game does get harder the more you die, aka the depths trial gets harder the more dornws you have You go from an endorcer to fighting a mother thresher, bone keeper , and squibbo in one trial, the difficulty gap between the enforcer and THAT is huge, just that we've played the game long enough for it to not be as much of a challenge to us. Deepwoken rewarding players for the knowledge they gain after wiling several times is absolutely fine, i dont see why thats an issue The more you play the less you wipe, thats not because the game itself is easy, its because you continuously master'd the games mechanics to the point where it seems easy and if you really wanna persist with the difficulty of the game and what not, rememebr deepwoken is supposed to have 9 layers if layer 1 was as diffcult as per say sekuro? Then layer 9 would be something far far harder then W rank probably leas then 5% of the community would be able to have the patience and endurance to wipe so many times in order to beat it. Remember when you wipe players you essentially wipe the time they've spent on making their characters, which is why deepwoken.gives you so many ways to avoid wiping. It makes the game for casual players alot less frustrating to play.

[@Lemantra]

You are absolutely correct, as a new player it takes a minimum of 3 or 4 days to reach power 20 on a build. And the ONLY THING you can do after that is get bell and risk 4 days of your time doing layer 2. Which wouldnt be a problem if you get carried by teammates, but for solo players its damn near impossible to learn layer 2 without spending months after months of time

[@Kirkoz]

as a complete solo player I did layer 2 1 month after I started ☝🤓

[@nero1697]

Like deepwoken system fit well at the beginning of the game when everyone suck at fighting, but after verse 2 patch and making progression so much easier then before made the permadeath system totally annoying thing.

[@AppleFritterEnjoyer]

Yeah I comeplety see what you mean. I love playing deepwoken but progressing build will probably be the reason why I will quit playing. Even if I play from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to sleep, my builds still wouldn't be maxxed. Really sucks too when you just made a build it gets wiped and now your either forced to pay $10 just to get wiped again or waste 10 hours just to also get wiped again. If your going to make a game with perma-death that is as harsh as this, at least make the progression not feel like a literal 9-5 job. Not even dark souls (which I would assume they take inspiration from) was this grueling. I have so many build ideas but I don't want to spend 10 hours maxing it out just to not find and overworld fights and fight at max an hour in chime just to get deptheds to skulls. One of the main points of the game, (being a hard game where you could lose all your stuff forever) is somehow to worst part of the game.

[@pwamp7007]

On to nothing deep is easier than it's ever been

[@flappyflap2693]

shit is way less fun then it's ever been ion know how they managed to make power 60 prog better than power 20

[@tspoter]

@@flappyflap2693 as someone who played verse 1, you aint cooking, you're looking back through rose tinted nostalgia lenses

[@flappyflap2693]

​@@tspoter *you do realize the shitty card trait system puts 1 power significantly above the other right* making matters worse it's 15 points to power up *once,* making the health restore feature practically unusable anymore, and cards get drawn in sets instead of one by one and 99% of the minor health talents got removed the day of the verse 2 update power 20 system sucks ass

[@dexwastaken1259]

@@flappyflap2693the trait cards are not that huge of an issue if youre talking about the difference between a power 10 and a power 13, it’s a singular card that either gives you +10hp ( btw starter sword does 18dmg ) or 5% mantra pen and scaling or 5% weapon scaling or at most give you one extra vent. As for the hp cards you wouldnt want 700hp tanks walking around wouldnt you? Players are already hard enough to kill with all the running and passive play, it’s gonna get even harder to end fights.

[@tspoter]

@@flappyflap2693 you try to make a good build in verse 1 with all that grinding and freshie gripping for luck, with NO mystic, shit takes way too long and for little to no benefit, you don't "grow attached to your characters", you just don't want to have to go through that slog again.

[@DrawciaLu2]

The perma death is pretty frustrating and don't really works in deepwoken, im still new to the game but 90% of my deaths were to voidwalkers and the other 10% i almost didn't learn anything because i was running from people If some parts of the game it was enabled like void zones would be cool

[@xel347]

Rogue was and still is 1000 times harder then deepwoken ngl

[@Jj-gg7yy]

if u aren’t stupid, you would spend one layer 2 run getting the hook, and the spear, and getting used to it then light hooking out. wait 20 minutes or so, and attempt it with the full 20 minutes to spare which is more than enough time to kill chaser with time still on the light hook

[@dominicballinger6536]

It's just too bad that the game makes you wait 20 real world minutes. Thats just exceedingly stupid

[@Vizzy.787]

I like permadeath as a concept but the way it's implemented just doesn't work with a game that features pvp this heavily.

[@Hhhh-ze4mo]

I can beat trial of one 50% of the time but I never managed to reach level 20 because I play the game the devs intended. Even tho I have 100 hours on deepwoken and very broad experience my highest progression that got to power 19 wiped to parasites in layer 2 which I had no clue about (Yes I did watch a guide to get a murmur but they didn't mention the parasites)

[@Sam-mb5zf]

what’s that build you use in the video?

[@dominicballinger6536]

I personally dont see why so many people are this upset about losing progress and needing to waste time to get back to where you were. Though ive played for long enough that it only takes around a day of progging to hit power 18ish, and its only gonna keep speeding up as i find ways to improve bit by bit. Maybe its because i havent been picking voidwalker due to not unlocking it yet. I do agree that wiping adds a ridiculous amount of stress to exploration though. Ive yet to explore layer 2 or try to kill a squibbo because if i tried without someone to help me, id need to prog again just for a second try. And that part in particular is ridiculous. That frustration i get, but generally being mad about wasting time progging to other things? Eh.

[@karaltar7914]

brother its not about the time it takes to reach power 18, its about the in some cases hundreds of hours you put into a character just to lose everything except two items.

[@dominicballinger6536]

@karaltar7914 that's fair. But you could easily grind for most of your items again, and the bank exists for a pretty good reason. The only real things I'd see grinding for being painful are legendary weapons, which you could pass down. And if you lack echoes you could just wait to fully wipe.

[@karaltar7914]

@@dominicballinger6536 My guy, its not about the difficulty to regain lost items, its about the time, like do you REALLY think its fun to spend 10-20 hours doing stuff you already did just to regain all the levels and gear or do you just do it because of having the items back? In the latter case would it not just be better to just remove the grinding for like 20 hours part?

[@karaltar7914]

@@dominicballinger6536 And i dont think you really got my point, i was talking about how its not about the time to regain the items but about the time you spent even getting the items in the first place.

[@dominicballinger6536]

@@karaltar7914 I do get that, I really do, but I've wiped way too many times to care much about that kind of thing. It happens at some point, and I guess I've just been conditioned to not really care much

[@seeyougotthatextrawhippedcream]

I feel like Deepwoken would have been perfect without permadeath.

[@alternate5108]

I find it hard to wipe in this game unless you want to, but not everyone likes to play permadeath cautiously. so they wipe. progression & minmaxing takes waaaay to long tho.

[@hgui930]

Deepwoken suffers from trying to be Elden ring while adding the insufferable perma death factor and being locked behind regions and ping

[@Jamas9981]

Honestly the money angle is a cope, it's pretty clear the original vision for the game was a much more gritty version of what we have now and was meant to be more on the rogue style than the current battle ground game we have today. While they could change the perma death, it's is too closely tied to the identity of the game and would probably drive some players away along with the fact that the devs are very set on keeping the lore the same