Talking Heads #3: I read the YT Comments. (Nerf Bingo)

[@FrozenSentinel]

Knew this was going to be a spicy one when I saw it. Also 32:35 "If you hit 100 without killing T4 Julra you haven't been playing the game long enough" I felt attacked here, I totally did this on my HC Sorc because I was being a total coward until 100 lmao. Relating to "solving puzzles" I also feel that OP skills / builds can still have a "puzzle" to solve. Just because it can trivialize "normal" content doesn't mean you can't have fun taking if from S tier to S+++ etc. tier with some theory crafting and improvements, that's the fun of really min-maxing stuff to the limit that some people enjoy. This is what happened in 1.0 where we took an already strong FC build to the point where it could do 10K+ corruption.

[@lordmamon4566]

"Hellooo this is dred..." - killed me 😂😅😂😅😂

[@Monochromatic_Spider]

Dissertation guy here. And I just want to quickly throw in that if I'd known you'd use my sort of half-baked comment as a talking point then it probably would've been a little longer. I was feeling grumpy that day and wrote it as I watched, edited it a little since it was kind of murky here and there, and then I thought "what the heck" and posted it, because how much time can you really spend editing a YT comment that you doubt anyone's ever going to read? And now you've spent an hour picking it apart. 🙂 I'm not complaining. I do think it's really nice that you respond to comments, and I do like the discussion you had, though come on, let poor Dread get a word in too. But I will offer some additional commentary because I'm that kind of person, and fair warning if anyone couldn't tell from this video already, I do write! Occupational personality flaw, I suppose. I used to be really concise back in the day, back when we had to write stuff by hand. But then we got computers and now it's just tappy-tappy on a keyboard and words appear. I really am sorry, for those who don't like verbose comments. So yeah, some additional nonsense below. Read at your own peril.

[@Monochromatic_Spider]

First thing, I don't disagree about the point of balance, though I would go a bit further than you did. I would argue that every skill should have some scenario in which it is useful at endgame. It doesn't have to be obvious, it can be niche, but there should be no skill that simply cannot be useful at endgame no matter what you do. Likewise, every single class should have a purpose. It should be doing something unique apart from the other classes that makes it distinct or else it should not exist. You're mocking me a bit for saying sorc was bad in 1.0. I don't mean they were unplayable. But what did sorc do that runemaster didn't do better? Thus in my view, sorc was bad. It's not a power thing, it's an identity thing. EHG seems to be suggesting this division between mages that cast big, high mana cost spells and mages that spam low cost spells but sorcs didn't really play into it. You're right, there is a chasm between the good stuff and everything else in LE. But I don't see how that chasm is going to shrink if we make all the currently good stuff kind of bad while adding a bunch of new good stuff that is likely to be broken. That's what EHG has been doing, as I understand it, and if that approach actually worked then we wouldn't have the chasm that we do. I think a much better approach is to leave the S tier stuff in unless it's completely broken. New power creep and routine adjustments over time will decay today's S-tier stuff into tomorrow's A-tier stuff and in time we'll have a lot more builds that feel good. Rather than looking at a few run-away synergies and declaring a skill too good, I'd much rather look at the specific gameplay cases and ask when and how the gameplay breaks down, then try and figure out where the line is between acceptable "very good" versus unacceptable "totally bonkers". Frost claw, then. I absolutely respect Frozen Sentinel's opinion. He's a smart guy, a level headed guy, and he has spent unreal amounts of time and efforts figuring out frost claw. Even spreadsheeted it, and who doesn't love a good spreadsheet? FC with spark charges is good, obviously, but a spark charge is still only 20 damage and some of these event mobs are just a bit frisky. At least that's my experience but feel free to tell me I'm a noob. We can of course talk about whether FC should actually register a hit on every entity it goes through until it hits the target, even with Volley of Glass. That functionality effectively makes it an area spell even though the node suggests it is meant to be single target. To me that feels on the verge of being a bug. And without VoG the spell doesn't cost the required 40 mana which means no 100% spark charge passive node. Would that mess with runemasters? I don't know. I don't know what they have at this point in time that is actually really good, aside from Frost Claw. And I am absolutely not a fan of taking away anything "really good" from anyone unless it has to be done. I want more "really good", not less. I haven't played a lot of runemaster so I don't know what they can do. But if you're telling me that frost claw could get nerfed into the ground without affecting their build options much then I will take your word for it. Getting back to sorc Frost Claw, I don't personally think 25 ailments on a single target is the thing that is really bonkers here. It's very good, for sure. But what I think is absolutely bonkers is when we can add 25 spark charges that do 300 damage at base. And just to make it perfect, that attribute also adds 4% increased as well. 150 int means 320 base spark charges + 600% increased. That little interaction is ridiculous with meh gear and insane with high end gear. Even if we nerf FC's ability to apply 25 spark charges per cast to everything in an area, that spark charge scaling is going to remain insane. I'm not sure yet what other ways there are to abuse it but I imagine there are other spells that can do nice multi-hit action. Anyway, enough half-drunken ramble. Apologies if anyone got this far and feel like they've completely wasted their time. I do try but I don't always do.

[@GuybrushTThreepwood]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we nerf erasing strike. You're saying that they shouldn't nerf anything unless it's egregiously OP, but most of what people are saying needs nerfs ARE egregious. FC spark charges, static orb, earthquake, all of falconer, are INSANE. That can't be the new standard.

[@Firetear]

This is something that has been on my mind about ARPGs for a while now. Part of balance needs to be more than just 'numbers go up". The alpha strike is too high in this (and most other) ARPGs. As an abstract, if your ailments are just different ways to count numbers going up, and anything that actually debuffs falls to the side because what does it matter if that mob was 15% slower for the < 1second it existed- then your game doesn't have balance. Worse, alpha strike starts causing your game to fall apart structurally. What is new content if you never get to see it because it died offscreen? What is a Boss if you can one-shot it but a commercial break between cutscenes? Is it really worth spending time and resources modelling new creatures if the player spends more time with their death animation than they do with all other interactions combined? The curse of poorly balanced ARPGs is that once you've solved your build, you have nothing left to solve. 'Optimal' play has enabled you to create a loot slot machine with a nice screensaver. Are you really playing the game any more than you might play an idle game? I want to believe that you can have meaningful build choices that doesn't just flatten, but enables meaningful gameplay. I'm willing to give EHG a shot because they're new, so their mistakes don't seem systemic and entrenched yet. I also think part of the problem is people keep pointing to POE and Diablo. They're successful, so they must be doing something right, right? I think evaluating Last Epoch on a spectrum of POE to Diablo fundamentally stifles creative discussion about Last Epoch because those two titles carry so much unacknowledged baggage. I'd much rather evaluate Last Epoch against other genres- how satisfying and tactile does it feel to play against Hades or a Soulsborne game? How engrossing is the progression against cookie clicker (no, seriously)? How good is the itemization and loot against Monster Hunter? How good is the storytelling against The Last of Us? It doesn't have to push all those boundaries, but could you imagine what the game could be to play if it took even a little bit more polish in those areas?

[@tunakx]

I still believe infinite corruption scaling is a terrible idea because it never gives me 'the build is done' feeling. They say they aim for 300 corruption to be the norm while there are a ton of builds which do 3k. This is like GGG saying T1 is our intended difficulty. I also don't think GGG's way of making content harder by introducing 'you either do not care about this modifier or you can never play with this mod' but at least I can guess how much damage and survivability a build has when they say it can do T16 with 100% deli or juiced T17. When someone says their build can push 1k corruption I am like: OK, cool I guess. Endgame progression seriously needs an overhaul.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

i mean i like it but like there should be a distinct cuttoff point

[@Rooks84]

They could add a cut off point for corruption, say 500, but then allow us to modify the echoes to further add difficulty / rewards (Maybe a sort of lens feature like in CoF but for Monolith echoes). Kind of like how in PoE maps only go to T17, but you can modify them.

[@dodang_9147]

but that is good. a build should never feel done. i hope they never cap corruption. i dislike that they reduced rewards for exp and item rarity. that was a terrible 1.0 ->1.1 change.

[@fragtal177]

The bosses are semi-official end points for character progression. Infinite scaling is good for players who want to go above and beyond. I think though that corruption should scale exponentially.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

@@fragtal177 it does ... After like 600-900 it drops off dramatically

[@draketurtle4169]

I heard your pretty good at making builds… Try to make a good alluvion wave build (the swords spell) and the bar here is just like 100 corruption because I’d be surprised if it can do that.

[@gibsonmanz939]

Why did Ghost Flame get nerfed to the ground? Barely anyone played it and now no one does.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

I mean I don't feel like an idiot for playing a bad build ... I do feel like an idiot when I wanna make something work that can't work or doesn't work well enough

[@toukoenriaze9870]

idk i feel like sorc and falconer should be the standard and not the exception ... their kit actually feels whole ... vs like forge guard which is kinda waaaay to spread out to be good in much

[@GuybrushTThreepwood]

There's a happy middle ground to be had.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

@@GuybrushTThreepwood i mean damage wise oof maybe a bit stronk ... but like kit wise they are where i think they should be

[@GuybrushTThreepwood]

I like the kit being cohesive and more focused, but I am not sure I like the just get int and mana, or just get dex, build done aspects. That said, I think there's absolutely room for some masteries to be the 4 piece puzzles. There's nothing wrong with classes with a very high floor, so long as the ceiling is the same as everything else (instead of orbitting a completely different planet).

[@ironcenturion31]

Finally someone else has this take. Their clear speed and utility feels great, almost like a PoE build. God forbid players feel strong lol.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

@@ironcenturion31 I mean it's not even their speed ... Altho one has perm haste and the other is just fast ... It's just they feel complete lol

[@h4rh4rkh]

I disagree with Perry about the focus on bugs and nerfs and balance. There is so much of this game that is currently in an unusable state that literally four out of five builds that I try exploring underutilized skills don't work because of bugs or unbalanced skills. Did you know that Maelstrom could be cast around totems, but the visuals are broken? Or that Spark Nova Lightning could be a viable way to handle clear, but that Lightning just doesn't cast Spark Nova? I would love if EHG actually spent one or two patches just working on bugs and nerfs and balance and putting structures in place preventing the game from degrading so much in the future. If they did, I could probably happily spend hundreds of hours going back through currently broken skills and trying builds I have never been able to try before.

[@PerrythePig]

> I disagree with Perry about the focus on bugs and nerfs and balance Wait, I said that I want bug fixes, no? If I didn't, I intended to. EHG needs to do content, obviously, but I really would love a big push from them to knock out some of the bugs -- they get in the way of enjoying build creation, like you said.

[@h4rh4rkh]

@@PerrythePig Sorry, I was referring to the discussion around 58:00. "Should they be focused on bugs and nerfs and balance? I don't think they should because they have other things to focus on instead, and I think that recognition is problematic."

[@toukoenriaze9870]

i mean about ballancing effecting other things it depends on how they nerf stuff which is why i dont trust them at all ... if they hit frostclaw for example by nerfing mana scaling you just potentially killed meteor and glacier which both rely on that mechanic (static orb too but its one of the oppressors so it doesnt count)

[@lordmamon4566]

They nerf things very good tbh. When I read 1.1 patch notes I was like "warlock is dead, o7" But I plaeyd warlock during event and it still rly rly fucking good😮😂 900c in few days with CoF ez pz 2 red rings 😅 So sorc will be just fine, they nerfed bear 9 or 10 times already and it is still strong af

[@5I13lV7DI1293]

Fundamentally there will always be a best build at the top that exploits metas and just does everything. Its inevitable and thats okay. Is Frost Claw/Sorc overtuned? Maybe in some areas, yeah. Do we need to gut it? No. I feel like your number one complaint with how well Sorc is doing, is how it makes every other build look bad in comparison. The fact of the matter is, many builds, spells, and specs don't compare is because they haven't been updated in 3-5 years. Fireball would be so cool to play with but uh....look at that tree. Instead of gutting sorc, maybe tweak it here and there and bring others up instead? Somtimes its okay to have a king.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

Ye corruption weirdge ... If they wanna ballance around 300 they need to make favor less efficient past 300 (or maybe like 400)

[@toukoenriaze9870]

still think its weird that runemaster got endurance scaling based off mana runemaster is ward based sorc is the mana char

[@dodang_9147]

idk if you remember, but runemaster used to have a bugged hp regen node which gave a huge amount of health regen. i think they intended runemaster to be like a hybrid mage that either focuses on hp/int or regen/int. spellblade is also suppose to be a hyprid hp/int character but it is not that great of class for reasons that we won't get into. Only sorc is designed to build pure mana, pure ward defence.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

@@dodang_9147 honestly sorc should be pure mana no ward low-key ... But that probably won't happen and probably would be very hard to make viable

[@toukoenriaze9870]

@@dodang_9147 it's also weird because RM does a lot of ward stuff but yet endurance doesn't do anything for ward

[@toukoenriaze9870]

*ignite frost claw with 6 passive tree points reminds me of when i played fireball sorc with 20 points in the tree for homing 4 to 5 proj and cinder wand in alpha xD*

[@toukoenriaze9870]

ye i think a nerf to frostclaw ailment is fine ngl ... altho applications from the tree should not be scaled down (idk if it does for warpath)

[@szibble]

I had no idea Perry and Dr3ad were canadian

[@toukoenriaze9870]

Chess 2 when

[@toukoenriaze9870]

The problem is there is no way to ballance the early game and endgame seperately ANY nerf to the endgame cascades down the chain and potentially Kills a character ANY buff to the earlygame makes the endgame easier

[@toukoenriaze9870]

I mean I play arpg to play ... Falconer lets me play, sorc let's me play (and scaling mana for everything is super cool and fun) ... Sometimes you get lost in the making of pieces and the outcome just ends up being forgotten aka poe

[@toukoenriaze9870]

Static orb was good? All I remember was using it for lightning aegis or random freeze procs

[@GuybrushTThreepwood]

Charged ground was THE thing for a long time (got nerfed). It was still great afterward. A lot of runemasters used orbit orb with plasma RI in 1.0. Static orb has always been one of the strongest skills mage has. The mana scaling was an enormous PITA due to having very few ways to recover mana though. This cycle gave us much easier mana sustain, and 50% more damage, as well as a little more max mana. But if abberoth was in 1.0, we would have seen players 2 shotting abberoth on runemaster.

[@toukoenriaze9870]

@@GuybrushTThreepwood i see lol ... ye last time i played with it was still early access ... dont think i used it in 1.0

[@CappySambo]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXWVZn-DnM-Vp9E

[@toukoenriaze9870]

@@GuybrushTThreepwood also to be fair the mana issue is still a thing ... we kinda just deal with it more now because theres actually value in dealing with it where there never was before (also focus poggers)

[@GuybrushTThreepwood]

@@toukoenriaze9870 Focus now gives more mana back, even without a CD, and sorc gives 20% mana back guaranteed, so it's a lot less of a problem. Charged ground was definitely all the rage in 0.8.something. It used to scale off of mana cost, same as the hit did. I probably also should have said 0.9 since that's when RM released. I don't think the skills ever been bad, not like Multi Strike or acid flask.