HOW GOOD IS MAX? Part 2 by Peter Windsor

[@traind]

I love this whole discussion but there seems to be a gap in logic. Clark and Senna had relatively short careersbut rank ahead of two 7 time world champions. Max ranks behind them because he hasn't produced long enough even though his best years are arguably the 2nd best ever behind Clark. That's inconsistent logic. I am not arguing anyone is the goat but you cant split the field like that on volume and claim to be consistent. Still love the discussion though.

[@Cloxxki]

Max had several years in cars that really didn't want to win and races too short (through DNF) to do what know almost only Max can do. Max is much less quali reliant than others, so a DNF might hurt him more than others, when he's ranked for "should have been 5th" when in races that run their course, Max somehow drags out a podium oddly often. Very Prost like in that manner.

[@anoniem9518]

Totally agree

[@Roguescienceguy]

I agree. Senna was great, but he cannot be put above Schumacher and/or Hamilton. These two were just more complete. Senna, to me, was a flawed genius. A one lap -machine but even in his era there was one better. Alain Prost. I hated the guy and I was a total Sennafan as a kid, but when you look at it objectively. I mean, yeah...

[@DenUitvreter]

Something doesn't seem right if both Clark and Hamlton are at the top as they are opposites in the sense that Clark is one of the greats despite his numbers and Hamilton because of the numbers only. What people also forget is that Schumacher didn't even try to win as much as possible, he tried to win with Ferrari instead. That was a sacrifice of his numbers and it didn't matter because every one knew how special he was and how special he needed to be to win a WDC with Ferrari.

[@rbsmith1987]

⁠​⁠@@Roguescienceguyyou have to look at the cars they were inn too

[@PlayFloyd_IN]

I watched F1 live from 1997 - 2017. I stopped watching F1 thereafter, because the cars got progressively got heavier, larger, DRS became an integral part of the sport, FIA being increasingly corrupt, the move away from V8s, and a few other reasons, but I have always kept up with basic news because Alonso and Hamilton are 2 of my all time favorites. I distinctly remember how good Max was in 2016. His win in Barcelona fending off charging Kimi was tremendous to watch, and the amount of pressure he put Rosberg under various stages that season was just awesome to watch. I loved Rosberg as well. This year I read so much about the brazil race and I decided to watch it. That drive urged me to go down a Verstappen rabbit hole of awesome drives over the last few years, and he is now on my Mount Rushmore list alongside Alonso, Senna, and Prost. I would be very interested in hearing from Sergio about his years at Red Bull alongside Max in a few years time, as I always have respected Sergio as a driver. I would love to see Max in Dakar, IndyCar, Nascar, WRC, WEC, before he gets too old. Him and Hulkenberg would be an awesome pairing, just like I think Hulkenberg and Alonso, and Hulkenberg and Hamlton would be an awesome pairing.

[@IAmKry]

His 2021 Sochi drive was an underrated gem in my opinion. Dude was making overtakes where no one else would

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

Brazil in the rain in 2016!

[@PlayFloyd_IN]

@@IAmKry - Agreed. I watched it a few days ago, and just wow.

[@PlayFloyd_IN]

@@PacoJastorius-gx1fb - Yes, I remember that as well. I remember watching it live and instantly remembering Senna, how Senna used to have almost a 6th sense of where the grip will be in real time in the wet.

[@mscbijles1256]

Just love this comment. Not just because you include Alonso in the discussion (why wasn’t he mentioned in this discussion? He’s probably one of the best ever in overdelivering time and time again)! And I also very much like how you mention Hulkenberg 😄 - he does seem to be underrated by most teams.

[@Reznor_Meeks]

Watching Formula 1 since early 80’s Out of all the champions I’ve watched in my lifetime, I’d pick Max over all of them. Max is the real deal, in and out of the track.

[@luffararnesugerkuk]

Yeah on top of that, excluding outliers like 2023 the cars have never been so close + reliability, did not like Max in the beginning but it is starting to look like Max is truly special

[@bjrnchrstn]

Same here. Not having him in the top 5 is ridiculous.

[@denr9577]

Same here, Max is the best oat. He combines the best from all these champs

[@TjopStick]

Im Watching more than 25 years F1 as a Schumacher fan. But Max is far more ruthless and consisted. And mentally by far the strongest ever. He have give me so much "WOW" moments. Unbelievable! F3 battles with Ocon Spa overtake 2015 Monaco 2015 smart overtaking cars by following raceleader Vettel First in a new car win 2016 Win in Malaysia in an Dominant Mercedes Era Sooooo many new Verstappen rules Brazil 2016 RainRace Sochi WC 2021 Monaco Quali Lap Jedda Qualilap Brazil 2024 etc.... The one who come close about race craft is Senna. IMO these are the best F1 drivers ever. Drivers before I didn't see live so I can not judge them.

[@mr_movieguru]

Exactly this ☝️

[@marcelwijnen9037]

5:33.. Don't forgot that in the qualifications Mercedes for years had their "party modus". That nearly killed F1 (for me at least).

[@The666opal111]

And Ferrari had their gigaturbo pressure mode in 80s, nothing has changed.

[@shearnat]

And infinite money

[@TheCrystalChassis]

​@@shearnat Exactly, Merc were spending over $700 million a year on the car in those years. The closest spent by others teams in that era was roughly $350 million by Ferrari and Red Bull. So party mode, double the money spent and "Valteri this is James".

[@marcelwijnen9037]

@@TheCrystalChassis (And: "Valtteri, did you bring your bowling shoes? Rain is expected".)

[@bartlutmers8651]

And RB surrendered qualifying to have a better race car. Mercedes had the best qualifying AND race car. So Max’s poles could be a lot better

[@gerbendegroot1327]

U love this analysis. One thing I miss is the relative inexperience of Max in single seaters before joining f1. He only did one year of f3 before joining f1 at only 17 years of age, which makes his f1 stats to date even more impressive

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

You should look at Kimi Raikonen then

[@CyrusDastoor]

Here is a nice summarization of his karting record: 2006 Belgium Championship (mini class): **won all 21 races** 2007 Belgium Championship (mini class): **won all 18 races** 2007 Dutch chanmpionship (mini class): **won all 4 races** 2008 Belgium Championship (mini class):**won 16/18 races** 2008 Belgium Championship (cadet): **won 11/12 races** 2008 Benelux Karting Series (mini class): **won 11/12 races** 2009 Belgium Championship (mini class): **won all 21 races** 2009 Belgium Championship (KF5): **won 11/12 races** 2009 Benelux Karting Series (mini max class): **won 11/12 races** KF3: 2010 Bridgestone-Cup Final: **1st** 2010 WSK Nations Cup:**1st** 2010 CIK-FIA World Cup: **2nd** 2010 WSK World Series: **1st** 2010 Winter Cup: **2nd** 2010 WSK Euro Series: **1st** 2011 WSK Euro Series: **1st** 2011 Winter Cup: **2nd** 2011 1e ronde WSK Master Series: **3rd** KF2: 2012 Winter Cup: **1st** 2012 WSK Master Series: **1st** 2012 1e ronde BNL Karting Series: **1st** 2012 FIA World Cup: **2nd** 2013 Winter Cup: **1st** 2013 WSK Master Series: **1st** 2013 WSK Euro Series (KF1): **1st** 2013 FIA European Championship (KZ): **1st** 2013 FIA European Championship (KF): **1st** 2013 FIA World Championship (KZ): **1st** 2013 FIA World Championship (KF): **3rd** Then we went on to formula 3: He pretty much destroyed everyone and finished very far ahead of the pack most of the races, even in the rain. He won 6 races in a row once. He finished 3rd in the championship because he had 8x DNF. By that time he had showed enough. Every team had Max high up their short list. Redbull made sure to beat the competition by doing something nobody else would think was possible: give the seat to a 17 year old. Note that Max went straight from F3 to F1, didn't even need to "proof" himself in F2. Everyone already saw by then Max was a generational talent. Copy and paste from reddit

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

@@CyrusDastoor Ocon beat Max in F3

[@KL50450]

@@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762that’s correct, though Ocon was with a top team. Van Amersfoort racing was a midfield team. Furthermore, max won 10 races that season. Ocon 9. Which shows in my view that were it not for these 8 DNFs, max would have won the series.

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

@CyrusDastoor you copied from reddit. There was no 8X DNF. That is fiction

[@miamithijs3579]

If you also include that last 4 years the cars have never been closer than ever before its even more impressive.

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

His car was the best car

[@Wmeester1971]

@@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762 Not this year.

[@chillikoala]

@@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762 Only in 2022 and 2023.

[@Eric-rf1is]

@@chillikoala 2022 also not at the start of the season. Remember Max was 47 points (I think) behind LEC at one point. But Max won. 2024, RBR was ahead in the beginning, before McL became the fastest car and still Max won.

[@chillikoala]

@@Eric-rf1is Agree.

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

Bruh, this analysis is *completely ridiculous* . All those numbers that YOU PRODUCE show that Max is really up there with the Jim Clark, Senna and Schumacher (who completely outclasses Hamilton!). Max's statistics are simply *BETTER* , but still you say: he is not at the level of those. YOU SIMPLY CONTRDICT YOURSELF BROTHER: On the one hand you say: _"he is right in line with the greatest things we have ever seen"_ , and is doing _"fantastic things"_ and as your AGE graph showed: in terms of AGE is already far ahead of ALL those others. But then when the ranking needs to be made you start blabbering about "mountains to climb" bla bla bla Real order: 1. UNKNOWN / UNCOMPARABLE: Fangio, Ascari, Nuvolari 2. Senna, Schumacher, Verstappen 3. Hamilton, Vettel, Prost, Jackie Steward, Jack Brabham 4. others

[@gbw28]

Perhaps it’s because Max still has a lot of races in him and the brilliant stats right now could be diluted over time?

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

@@gbw28 That is a valid point, but with two caveats: A.) some of the others on the list had shorter carreers than Max already has now (and it is easier to be fantastic over a short period than over a long period), B.) If he wants to make that point, he should simply have said something like: "given the current stats it already looks like Max is (going to be) one of the GOATs, but we will have to wait untill the end of his carreer to see if it stays that way". That would have been the only right conclusions from his own data. But this manouvering of positions on that wonky Excelsheet was just a toecringingly painfull show of bias and incincerity.

[@mark4motion68]

Completely agree, not with your order tho

[@doemijmaarfriet]

@@gbw28definitely going to happen. Hamilton no win years made some idiots believe he passed his peak, which is none sense. You wont hear them when then Lewis destroys Charles in a Ferrari next year. Similar we will hear media write Max off next year if his car is bad. There is so much none sense.

[@MaxVerstappen13389]

That list definitely passes the eye test - if you asked me to rank drivers qualitatively my list would look very similar. Probably missing Clark in P2 as well.

[@JS-ll8nk]

Max is the best driver we’ve ever seen.

[@jonathaneasen9630]

Did you not watch any of this or the previous video?

[@wittepens1]

I was with Cory until he put Lewis above Schumacher only based on the amount of wins and poles. Wasn't the point of part 1 to not just go of on merely race wins and poles?

[@murrayhyslop9263]

No way Hamilton above Schumacher. He rated Schumacher as seasons 97,98 as a car that could win a title. That car could only win a title because Schumacher won so many races he should never have won, those were not title winning cars.... I feel 94 and 95 cars were good cars but were title cars only because of Schumacher. Hamilton, I say 08, 17,18 those titles he won, the rest most good drivers could of taken those cars to titles

[@chillikoala]

100% Agree.

[@jonasblomme1252]

Lol I thought the exact same. The guy's logic ain't 'logicing'

[@51bikerboy]

If you start from pole you are more likely to win the race then when you start say from P5. Lewis has 103 poles and 103 wins. A 10% plus powered engine works miracles! For me is better to look and compare races won not from pole that says me more about the quality of the driver!

[@murrayhyslop9263]

Yeah, his ratings for Schumacher just don't fit at all. Schumecher's Greatness for me was before 2001, because of how good he did against better cars. I think he was an all timer before he won his 1st title with Ferrari, In the same way I feel Max was great before he won his 1st title, I feel Max was great at Malysia 2017, I know its not the most momorable win of his but really he should never of won hat race the way he did. Anyways I could ramble on but his classification of Schumacher and his rating of the cars he drove makes me question his logic... which seemed sound for the most part.

[@fh2926]

Very interesting analysis! Seeing all the numbers confirms a gut feeling I've had that Max is even better than than we realized.

[@silverfoxsilverfox6932]

Verstappens statistics are inflated by having weak teammates and zero competition. He wouldn't have beaten Hamilton in 2021 without the safety car rules changes at the end. He won fairly easily in 2022 and 2023 won in 2024 which was a good win against a weak lando Norris who had the best car and failed to utilise it. Verstappen won 2 races out of 10

[@johanfeenstra8778]

He forgot one new category and that is online racing. If you look at history you should olso took at the future.

[@lIlIlIllIlIlIlIIl]

@@silverfoxsilverfox6932Max wins 2021 99/100 times if you run it back. Hamilton dropped it multiple times throughout the season (Imola and Baku), while the only races where Max seriously lost points were through no fault of his own (Hungary and Baku). Add to that Lewis crashing out Max violently in Silverstone to keep himself in the fight, and you have to accept that Lewis was just outperformed in 2021. It‘s unfortunate for Max that it had to come down to AD21, but the right athlete won that season. Beyond any doubt.

[@fh2926]

​@@lIlIlIllIlIlIlIIlAgreed. Lewis is good, but he's more error prone than Max. Also, even with a dominant car, Lewis never managed to put together spectacular winning streaks the way Max does. Now and then, he just doesn't show up for a weekend. 2023 was when I finally realized how much better Max is. It's a team effort, for sure, but I doubt another driver will ever equal Max's 2023 season stats. Seems perfectly fair to rank Max second to Jim Clark.

[@3manu3ls0n]

@@silverfoxsilverfox6932 Here we go again. You name one moment from one race and shout that Max wouldn’t have won the 2021 championship because of that moment. WHY? There was so much more going on in that season and Max wins it every time if we had do it over. Now go cry again.

[@DaanBudel51]

Even if Max wins a 5th in dramatic fashion he is still 2 steps removed from Senna, Fangio and Clark, because he needs to 'do more'? I just don't see that logic, feels like a double standard to me.

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

You are completely right. These people are BRITS. They will *never admit* to reality when it pertains to a continental European driver being better than a brit. Even when the truth is staring them in the face like the stats in these video's which clearly indicate (and our "analyst" even says as much!) that Verstappen is one of the VERY BEST, they will never ever admit it. It is pathetic.

[@TerieuS]

It doesn't matter how you look at it he needs to do one more thing; he needs to retire 😂 by means of legacy but also the increase in chance of wins/championships of UK drivers 😂😂

[@MrDieselakias]

he said that there;s no way schumacher is better than hamilton because lewis has more wins and poles. I closed it

[@MrBritishComedy]

Yeah, same. He does all this elaborate stuff where he looks into individual races and championships that a driver should have won and then comes to all the wrong conclusions. Hamilton never really built up a team and has had hardly any magical drives, unlike Schumacher where you really have as many - if not more - to choose from as in the case of Senna.

[@mark4motion68]

Much less races isd

[@mr_movieguru]

In part 1 he said Lewis had the best car for the longest stretch ever. He contradicts himself

[@weallfollowmanutd]

Have you ever considered why Schumacher has less poles than Lewis? It's easy. Because Schumacher didn't always have the fastest outright car from qualifying to race, compared to Lewis in his Mercedes. Schumacher won races in many Ferraris in the late 90s that were not the fastest cars. In the 1996 he won 3 races every time in cars that may have been third best! In 1997 he definitely won 5 races every single time in a second best car and in 1998! His skill level was wild. So called experts have already forgotten this

[@mr_movieguru]

@weallfollowmanutd ☝️👍🏽

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

I keep seeing the usual mistake from people who think that Max having a weak teammate was an advantage for him. The *opposite* is true: Having a weak teammate is a DISadvantage (!). A good nr.2. is supposed to guard the back of the nr.1, and hold of competitors, and also *take away points from the first drivers of other teams* . And it is clear that a teammate that exits in Q1 or Q2 and hardly ever finishes better than P8 is pretty *useless* in that respect. In other words, Max had to do it all on his own without that help and protection of a teammate.

[@makkert]

This is a matter of definition on what ‘strong’ and ‘weak’ is. To me ‘strong’ means competing for the championship. That is not the teammates of Verstappen by teamdesign. Perez legacy is tainted by the 2024 season, but he was a valuable ‘weak’ driver that took points from opponents in other seasons.

[@Eric-rf1is]

@@makkert So, Checo didn't take much points from others in 2024 (he scored 9 point himslef in the last 8 races!!). Looks like a DISadvantage for Max to me..........

[@jjsalto8274]

I agree with that. 2021 for example, lewis had bottas there constantly, and perez was never in the mix even back then. Exept for that last race.

[@joosdekkers8272]

Max crushed all his teammates. Those same teammates were very competitive against alle other drivers the paired with. That says A LOT

[@rientsdijkstra4266]

@@makkert You are confusing being "strong" with "being competitive". Being strong implies that you have the intrinsic speed to take points away from other teams top drivers. That means that you must be a very fast driver, if maybe not as fast as the nr.1. Being "competitive" on the other hand means wanting to compete (with the nr.1 in the team in this case)... Which for the more immature personalities does not always go hand in hand with the actual ability to do so, as we have seen with Perez, for instance.

[@ehsanmalik2954]

Schumacher at fifth is insane for what he did during 94 to 01 is the greatest level of any F1 driver ever

[@DenUitvreter]

Agree. Schumacher's greatness was not in his WDCs but taking a car into the challenge for the WDC that didn't belong in that fight.

[@freespeech3673]

The reason Hamilton is so depressed is the realization perhaps that he is not as good as Max by a mile.

[@michaelthompson2346]

Bet you can't quantify by how many miles? If you need a torch before you bend over let me know

[@saeedkissanga2416]

Your opinion are your own

[@bobkeul7682]

@@saeedkissanga2416 not just an opinion. Lewis isnt that good, only Sky is putting him on that stand and they are a worldfeed. Lewis his career before F1 isnt that bright either. Other drivers BEFORE entering the F1, perhaps you can spot the difference: Verstappen: 2010: WSK Nations Cup - KF3 - 1st 2010: WSK World Series - KF3 - 1st 2010: WSK Euro Series - KF3 - 1st 2010: CIK-FIA World Cup - KF3 - 2nd 2010: Bridgestone Cup Europe - KF3 - 1st 2011: WSK Euro Series - KF3 - 1st 2011: WSK Master Series - KF2 - 1st 2012: CIK-FIA World Cup for KF2 - 2nd 2013: CIK-FIA World KZ Champion - 1st 2013: CIK-FIA European Champion - KZ - 1st 2013: WSK Master Series - KZ2 - 1st 2013: WSK Euro Series - KZ1 - 1st 2013: CIK-FIA World Champion - KF - 3rd 2013: CIK-FIA European Champion KF - 1st 2014: FIA Formula 3 European Championship - 3rd 2015: Formula 1 Hamilton 1995: Super 1 Nat Champion - IAME - 1st 1996: Kartmasters British GP - Comer - 1st 1997: Super 1 National Champ- FY 1th 1998: Torneo Industrie - 100 Jun- 19th 1998: Green Helmet Trophy - Cadets - 12th 1998: Italian Open Masters- ICA Junior - 4th 1999: Torneo Industrie Open - ICA - 1st 1999: South Garda WC- ICA Junior - 6th 1999: Trofeo AM - 100 Junior - 18th 1999: Italian Open Masters - ICA - 4th 1999: European Championship - ICA - 2nd 2000: Trofeo Andrea Margutti - FA - 7th 2000: World Cup - Formula A - 11st 2000: European Championship - F A - 11th 2000: World Championship - F A - 20th 2001: South Garda Winter Cup - FS A - 7th 2001: Italian Open Masters - F A - 4th 2001: World Championship - FS A - 15th 2001: Formula Renault UK WS MM - 7th 2002: Formula Renault UK MM - 3rd 2002: Formula Renault 2000 Eurocup - 5th 2003: Formula Renault UK MM - 1st 2003: Formula Renault 2000 Masters - 12th 2003: Formula Renault 2000 Germany - 27th 2004: Formula 3 Euro Series MM - 5th 2004: Bahrain Superprix - 11th 2004: Macau Grand Prix - 14th 2004: Masters of Formula 3 - 7th 2005: Formula 3 Euro ASM Formule 3 - 1st 2005: Masters of Formula 3 - 1st 2006: GP2 Series ART Grand Prix - 1st 2007: Formula 1 Oscar Piastri 2014: Australian Nat Sprint Kart -Junior CM 2nd 2014: Australian Nat Sprint Kart CM -Junior National Light 8th 2014: IAME International Final -X30 Junior 3rd 2015: Australian Kart Champion : KF3 3rd 2015: WSK Super Master Series: KFJ 80th 2015: CIK-FIA European Champion: KFJ 26th 2016: WSK Champions Cup: OKJ 29th 2016: South Garda Winter Cup: OKJ 10th 2016: WSK Super Master Series: OKJ 12th 2016: German Karting Champion -Junior 77th 2016: CIK-FIA European Champion: OKJ 16th 2016: WSK Final Cup: OKJ 8th 2016: CIK-FIA World Champion: OKJ 6th 2016: Formula 4 UAE Champion 6th 2017: F4 British Champion 2nd 2017: Formula Renault NEC 21st 2018: Formula Renault Eurocup 8th 2018: Formula Renault NEC NC† 2019: Formula Renault Eurocup 1st 2020: FIA Formula 3 Champion 1st 2021: FIA Formula 2 Champion 1st Leclerc: 2010: CIK-FIA World Cup - KF3 - 29th 2011: WSK Master Series - KF3 - 15th 2011: WSK Final Cup - KF3 - 2nd 2011: ERDF Masters Kart - Junior - 1st 2011: CIK-FIA World Cup for KF3 - 1st 2011: WSK Euro Series - KF3 - 23rd 2012: WSK Final Cup - KF2 - 5th 2012: CIK-FIA World Cup for KF2 - 5th 2012: CIK-FIA European KF2 Champ- 2nd 2012: CIK-FIA U18 World Karting Championship - 2nd 2012: WSK Euro Series - KF2 - 1st 2012: WSK Master Series - KF2 - 20th 2013: WSK Master Series - KZ2 - 4th 2013: CIK-FIA World KZ Champion - 2nd 2013: WSK Euro Series - KZ1 - 12th 2013: CIK-FIA European Champion- KZ - 6th 2014: Formula Renault 2.0 Alps - 2nd 2015: FIA Formula 3 European Champ - 4th 2016: GP3 Series - 1st 2017: FIA Formula 2 Championship - 1st 2018: Formula 1 Ocon: 2009: Bridgestone Cup Europe - KF3 - 4th 2009: WSK International Series - KF3 - 35th 2010: Bridgestone Cup Europe - KF3 - 6th 2010: WSK Nations Cup - KF3 - 6th 2010: CIK-FIA World Cup - KF3 - 7th 2011: CIK-FIA World Cup for KF3 - 14th 2011: WSK Euro Series - KF3 - 2nd 2012: Formula Renault 2.0 Alps - 7th 2013: Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup - 3rd 2014: FIA Formula 3 European Championship - 1st 2015: GP3 Series - 1st 2016: Formula 1 Gasly: 2009: CIK-FIA World Cup - KF3 - 3rd 2009: CIK-FIA European Champ - KF3 - 23rd 2010: CIK-FIA World Cup - KF3 - 4th 2010: CIK-FIA European Champ - KF3 - 2nd 2011: French F4 Championship - 3rd 2012: Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup - 10th 2013: Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup - 1st 2014: Formula Renault 3.5 Series - 2nd 2015: GP2 Series - 8th 2016: GP2 Series - 1st 2017: Formula 1

[@wesselkampen2644]

True

[@virgilma6153]

He already know sinde 2017. He heard from his peers who that young guy was. His hero Niki was praising Max in front of media many times, ofcourse he took it personal and called him ‘ this guy or that guy instead of Max ‘

[@florisbackx1744]

Imagine building a huge spreadsheet and procure tons and tons of data and then make the final list based on personal opinion....

[@ButItsMonday]

Well said 😂

[@NotAfraidToQuestionThings]

I disagree with the "pole" stat. Surely, having less poles with more wins is a sign that the car is less dominant?

[@demainesolomons6007]

The dataset provided by Cory is quite limited, raising concerns about its reliability-Stats 101. Furthermore, suspicions regarding confirmation bias should not be taken lightly, as it is evidently present in Cory's analysis and many of the comments within this thread. In summary, I would approach these claims with a healthy degree of scepticism.

[@illbeback2YT]

So Senna's position does not to be proven by data, but is favoured by his driving style? So, for the list of the alltime greats, the question arises when do you stick to data, and when you allow yourself to use none-objective opinions? In the end it is a personal list. Whatever, a fascinating 2 part video. Thanks.

[@jazzyonno]

I noticed that too. Senna was put alongside Fangio and Clark on the basis of sentiment, but for all others it was stats. It's OK though, I have never seen better analysis and I really, really enjoyed the videos so I'll grant this little indulgence. just like you did.

[@Bosnomoya]

I was thinking the same. If they choose to use driving style on all of them then Schumacher and Verstappen should be same level as Senna. I been watching F1 from 90s’ so I remember them all and this is my personal opinion.

[@n.b.5258]

He gives Senna 89 because of Suzuka, but forgets that Senna still made an unforced error and crashed in Adeliade and would have lost that season to Prost anyway.

[@ftc-nl1041]

Well... Senna did not really won all his championships by himself but by rules. If you look at, like 1988 there were 16 races but only the half did count for the championship. The 5 worst results were deleted from every driver. Prost did score 105 points but 2 DNF's and 3 P2's were not counted for the championship for Prost (the 5 deleted races) so he did get 87 points left from his 105 points (18 points deleted) at the end of that season. Senna did get 90 points after deleted his 5 worst results, his deleted races were a disqualifying, a DNF a P10 a P6 and a P4 for Senna were only 4 points deleted so Senna won that Championship with 90 points in 1988. But as you can see Prost was much better that season then Senna as you can see. So you can go on with statics till infinity.

[@GriotDNB]

Really terrible guest IMHO

[@tsubodre]

I love these stats. But it is an interpretation of some times personal preferences. Let us enjoy all.. On my note, I dont tink that there was a driver like Max Verstappen in history who was responsible for so many rule changes, because he was streching them with his ruthlessness, knowledge and racecraft.

[@stocksunderthehood]

I think it is often overlooked how good Max is at Sim Racing too. In this regard, driving many different types of cars over various time frames, (endurance etc) he is ELITE. I know it's not real life but the gap is narrowing all of the time and he is at the top of the tree. Max is the most complete F1 driver I've ever seen. I'd be flabbergasted if he doesn't end his career as the most complete driver of all time too, once he competes in a few other real life categories.

[@Wrongwayman-hj6pd]

I’m not sure Hamilton did much development work at Mercedes. The development was done by SChumacher and Rosberg. The car was well on the way to success when Hamilton arrived. Clearly you have not watched that much F1.

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

What about the aerodynamicist?? The drivers contributions are over blown. This comment sucks like the music at the end of the video.

[@f1jones544]

Schumacher did so much "development" that Mercedes got one fluke of a race during his entire tenure and otherwise were never truly in contention for anything. Then they were in contention for three as soon as Hamilton arrived. So suddenly they came guys even Schumacher, who was clueless about the Pirellis was the person responsible after he was out of the picture? Yeah, that tracks... /S

[@n.b.5258]

@@f1jones544 Hamilton didn't do any real development either. Mercedes was a proven, race-winning car in 2013 and so far ahead of everyone else in 2014 that Hamilton only had to beat Rosberg.

[@saeedkissanga2416]

@@n.b.5258 3 race win doesn’t mean nothing that car was 💩 for the rest of the year

[@n.b.5258]

@@saeedkissanga2416 It was the second fastest car. Hamilton didn't develop anything to change the power plant regs, and Mercedes had a head start on the development of the turbo hybrid engines. The myth of Hamilton developing that car into a championship winning one in a single season is just that, a myth.

[@MaartenOosterbaan]

Sorry, if we're talking potential titels you can't just say MSC has 7 and Lewis almost 10...Schumacher with almost's is also at least at 9...plus imho he has WAAAY more influence on bringing Ferrari up and Lewis did not bring Mercedes up, MSC even was at the basis of bringing up Mercedes as a team...of course it was mainly their engine...so yes I will say MSC is better than Lewis

[@fulgurflavo5913]

many people also forget prost in this conversation. give him like 10 more points and he would have double the championships

[@MaartenOosterbaan]

@fulgurflavo5913 true, Bernie Ecclestone calls him the best ever I believe.

[@JonBobben]

Agreed. ‘98 and ‘99 was just bad luck and a broken foot.

[@Stantube1000]

Cory, you are missing completely one of if not he most important stats that shows the level of driver's individual dominance over prolonged period of time. which is F1 Drivers' 50-Race Rolling Win Percentage, where Max at 78% outshines two of the most dominant drivers previously Schumacher and Hamilton - both at 62% by a margin, Senna and Vettel at incomparable 46% and Clark at 42%. This insane 78% win rate over 50 races is higher than longstanding 70 years Ascari record of 75% over a period of 8 races! Could you imagine. And anticipating objections about lower reliability during older days, both Schumacher and Hamilton had top notch reliability, whereas Max in fact lost 3 Grand Prix otherwise he would've won easily during that period only because of technical issues with his car - Silverstone 2022, Saudi 2023 and Australia 2024. If not for that his winrate over the 50 race period starting with Miami 2022 ending in Barcelona 2024, would've been mindblowing 84%, and what even more impressive, he's achieved that with the car that was the outright best only for 30 races during a period between Spa 2022 - China 2024 excluding Brazil 2022, Singapore, Vegas and Qatar 2023, Australia 2024. If all that isn't still enough even to put him within that GOAT conversation, sorry, but I don't know what will be enough then. Though for me personally, an eye-test is and will always be more important. I never saw Clark race, but I could imagine it was more of driving in circles than actual racing during those days. Incomparable with tough wheel to wheel action and dogfights for every inch of the track we see these modern days. What Max does with his car in wheel to wheel racing, that alone puts him above the 2nd greatest and another genius which is Senna in my list. ANother driver that was head and shoulders above the rest during his time. To put heros of what I call 'amateur era' - Ascari and Fangio next to, let alone ahead of the guys like Senna, Verstappen, Hamilton and Schumacher is nothing but pure romantism. That means you completely ignore natural progress. Those guys were definitely very brave men, they were heros, but they would never stand a chance these days. Most of the drivers of that era wouldn't even be on the grid these days, they wouldn't go through juniour formula ladder.

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

This man's own (cooked) numbers *clearly* show Max to be one of the GOAT's, and he even says words to that effect himself ("Max did things that others would find very hard to replicate", etc.) But then can not bring himself to be *honest* and draw the only conclusion from his numbers and statements, and starts fumbling around with a toe-cringingly incincere display of dishonesty when he has to put the names on the board.

[@Stantube1000]

@@PacoJastorius-gx1fb Let's put it out stright, Verstappen has already overwritten all historical records that had anything to do with drivers individual dominance, rather than the technical dominance of his cars, which Lewis was a merchant of, which to Cory's credit his own normalised stats show quite clearly. What I strongly disagree with is him putting Schumacher 1997 Ferrari as a car capable of winning the championship. He also put Max 2024 red bull in the category of 'arguably the fastest car', whereas everyone knows unarguably it was NOT the fastest car of the season, and frankly it was not even close. So was Max 2021 car, Mercedes was unarguably superior car for most of the year starting fromt the very beginning. Horner "I don't think people actually realize what Max is doing in that car. I really don't think people recognize that. We haven't had the best car all year. Max is a fighter and if there's a driver that deserves to win this world championship, it's Max Verstappen, because Mercedes have had the better car." Max has already won 2 championships without the best car, one of which against historical opponent, and another one against undoubtedly one of the fastest and best overall drivers on the grid Lando Norris. That alone puts Max ahead of both Schumi and Lewis. and I would personally put Schumi ahead of Lewis because he hasn't had that good cars (totally dominant in Lewis case) for most of his career and Michael was in Championship battles he shouldn't have been in based on cars performance like 1997.

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

​@@Stantube1000 Indeed, the pattern is clear, both when he is talking about Max and when he is talking about Lewis and Schumacher. Not only does the man cook the data, but he is also not able to be straight forward and draw the logical conclusions from the data that he himself produced. Painfull to watch tbh.

[@Stantube1000]

@@PacoJastorius-gx1fb To be fair, Cory is probably feeling himself too uncomfortable to put it out straight as it is in front of Peter who is also known as the chairman of LH44 fanclub. To say Schumi hasn't done anything to be placed ahead of Lewis makes too little sense for me. Schumi was winning and fighting for the titles without the best car. Schumi was standout performer on wet track even during his 2nd career at the age of 43, just watch some of his 2011-2012 wet track performances, both in quali and races. He wiped the floor with much younger Rosberg every time when it was wet! Lewis though....where he was in Brazil 2024 in a car that was easily capable of winning the race as Russell showed. He looked pathetic and he isn't even 40 yet. Could you imagine someone like Senna or Max scrapping for low points just outside the top 10 with the backmarkers in a wet race? at any age. I personally cant. Lewis is in my top 10 of all time, but clearly outside of the conversation for being the GOAT, or even top 3. I'm keen to learn more about Clark, but so far my top 3 is Ver, Senna and Michael. I've seen enough of these three race, which is why I can judge based on what I saw.

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

@@Stantube1000 Yep, I think you are right. But that is no excuse. This bloke should just grow a spine...

[@larsdijker7208]

You also have to take in account how big the difference in cars is and how strong the rest of the field is. I don’t know how big differences were between cars. Stewart, Ascari, Fangio win races with more then 1 lap with the number 2. Then there is the part where Lewis immeditely started in championship winning cars whe Max started at Torro Rosso.

[@pedroferrr1412]

British drivers are gods! How there you ?!?!

[@makkert]

The ‘perfect race’ statistic is bullshit for this reason. It still was a good and fun analysis overall, I enjoyed it. But yes, there are several points of criticism that can be brought forward. He did address your point on the race winning cars. But that might have been part 1… What I find lacking is that less races means a less impressive body of work. It is much harder to keep percentages high with more races.

[@Gazeld]

They also don't take into account the number of races in a season: on one side you can think the more races you have the harder it is, but when the car is dominant on a whole season it's easy to make the poles/victories stats rise up.

[@larsdijker7208]

@@GazeldYes it is hard to compare. Cars are a lot closer now because of the budget cap. Technology is more advanced so tenths of a second can make a big difference. I think the gaps are a lot smaller even when Max dominated. Back in the days you had way less reliability too. Pit stops that made huge differences, teams that weren’t as professional, less data, etc.

[@Torero2901]

GOATs: Pure statistics and what if - Jim Clark Qualis (1985!!), offtrack personality and WOW factor - Ayrton Senna Team building and dominance - Schumi Overall, dominance and wow factor - Supermax F1 personality and offtrack safety - Jackie Stewart Total wins, podiums, points - Lewis My personal top3: Ayrton Senna Max Verstappen Jim Clark

[@n.b.5258]

Everyone forgets Prost, who was less than 13 points in total from 8 championships instead of 4. Lost to Lauda by .5 in 84, won the most races in 83 and lost the championship by 2 points because of an unreliable Renault, lost to Senna by 3 in 88 (and had more total points, but drivers could only count their best 11 of 16 races), and lost by 7 to Senna in 90. Using the statistical analysist here, the only one that would be questionable is 1990 - Prost would still have 7 championships. And if you want to question 89, remember that Senna had to win the last 2 races of the season, and even if he won Suzuka (as he should have) he still stuffed it in Adelaide and would not have won that year anyway.

[@TMJ32]

1. Schumacher 2. Senna 3. Fangio 4. Prost 5. Clark 6. Hamilton Verstappen is just entering the middle part of his career so I don't rate him yet.

[@garamkim7211]

This is a wrong analysis. Schumacher won on a weak team. 2 wins at Benetton. He joined Ferrari during dark times and won. But hamilton won only a fast car from a strong team. Schumacher is a much better driver than hamilton.

[@marilouhellinger8491]

correct

[@NotAfraidToQuestionThings]

So... what would Max rank if next season, after winning 3 races, he died on track? Would that make a huge difference from retiring or "losing it" and being a midfield driver for 6 more seasons?

[@LVQ-so5th]

Part 2 seems to contradict Part 1.

[@CPez]

How? We’re talking Overall Total Career here. Max is on his Way to bring Top 3, but you have to be great for a long time, as I said.

[@MaxVerstappen13389]

What is scary is Max has another 15 years left at the peak of his driving abilities. He is only likely to improve his racecraft and technical feedback over the coming years. If he so pleased, he would quite comfortably pass the threshold to make it into that “hard” bracket of absolute greatest drivers, and probably eclipse every single one of them.

[@jasonwoodward3697]

I’ve always wanted to take two equal cars from Red Bull and Mercedes, put Max and Sir Hamilton in those cars. The run them in the track together each in the same branded car for an equal number of laps , then swap the cars that they were driving w each other for parity. Do this w both brands and we will have a good measuring stick. Won’t happen but would be nice to see.

[@Gazeld]

And do it a lot of times and several different days so that they are in good physical shape each of them, and, and, and...

[@troop73oo]

Unless you can put them at their best in identical cars over a season , we will never know. But it’s always a good debate.

[@Bikerz_rule]

I'm not surprised by Clark's rating, more surprised by Prost as he was truly a great! Clark was amazing and testament to his gift he never understood why everyone was so much slower than him.

[@wouterjansen7882]

He said at 6:31: “Schumacher never lost from a teammate”!!! That’s because due to teamorders..! (And I do like the way Schumacher raced).

[@rientsdijkstra4266]

🤣Yep, with Ferrari he even had a clause in his contract which said that it was explicitly *forbidden* for teammates to overtake him...

[@wreagfe]

I just paused at the spreadsheet, and after 20 minutes I'm still looking at it. :)

[@mark4motion68]

Dude got lost somewhere in this video. Doing stats with max nipping to Jim Clark… conclusion, max number 6/7… don’t do stats then.

[@PacoJastorius-gx1fb]

The man is a fake. He can not bring himself to draw the obvious conclusion from his own cooked stats.

[@f1jones544]

Mansell was beaten by every teammate not named "Patrese." I think that sums it up. Also, he did statistically less in CART with the fully developed Lola-Ford than Michael Andretti did with it when it was an unreliable dog. Man, he lucked into that championship through the least possible effort (or through someone else's).

[@n.b.5258]

Evidenced by how well he did in CART the following year, where he dropped back to virtually meaningless.

[@cedricberner8507]

I didn't understand the reasoning behind not having Prost anywhere in the reckoning. 4 championships must have some impact?

[@nicolalosa7580]

Great video, however it should be noted that Max Verstappen was actually beaten by his teammate in 2017. He also got beate in 2016 technically cause Ricciardo outscored him in the reces they spent together. That doesn't take anything away from Max who is the goat IMO, it's just for the sakeof statistical accuracy

[@ibrahimali4390]

Nice stuff but why is Alonso neglected?

[@PietHoffenaar]

Very interesting! Thanks. 👏

[@madalinbpopa]

I think on the contrary , its crazy to think Hamilton is better than Schumacher if you saw both of them driving live . I've been watching F1 since 95 , I'm still quite young , but I rate Max at Schumacher's level of talent , ability , aggresion , ruthless , rainmaster , ability to lead a team etc . I cannot go further beyond 95 , but in the last 30 years these are the best 2 drivers I've watched

[@chillikoala]

Thank you -- another set of really interesting stats. There are so many factors that affect the numbers, including how competitive the cars are the past few years, even if a car is "totally dominant". It adds a lot more weight into what Max has achieved (race wins, poles, etc) amongst such close competition and several great drivers. I've been following F1 since the early 80s (watched almost every race since), and what Michael Schumacher achieved by winning the 1994 WDC in that awful Benetton-Ford was simply remarkable. His debut in a very average Jordan was simply astonishing. I would argue the B194 was probably the 3rd or 4th best car that season, and it was only by Schmacher's brilliance that Benetton finished 2nd in the championship. You could argue also that had Schumacher taken the easy path and signed with McLaren-Mercedes instead of Ferrari, he could have won many more championships. Michael Schumacher is superior to Lewis Hamiliton in my opinion, and was probably the most complete Formula 1 driver (not just with his pace, but with team and car development). What Lewis has achieved is incredible, but as you say, one has to dig deeper than just the numbers. Lewis has been beaten soundly by many team mates, and you could also argue that some of his team mates (like Alonso, Button, Rosberg) could have achieved similar levels of success with the same cars that Lewis has had in his career. Or alternatively, had Lewis been in the same uncompetitive cars, like say Alonso, would he have achieved similar results?

[@PetreSmith]

⚡️ Finally! A discussion based on data and not on ‘feels’ - thank you for this. Fantastic videos.

[@ElieWeissenbach-xx1yi]

This "analysis" is a complete *JOKE* , for a whole list of reasons: A.) Cooking the numbers like that is an absolute NO NO! In science that is called FRAUDE. Reality is that there are always is an element of *randomness* to events, which will cause deviations to what you _think_ is "reasonable". But in general in the big picture these random "unreasonable" events cancel each other out (more or less). For instance: in the 2021 season Max got Torpedo'd by Hamilton on Silverstone (which our "statistician" doesn't even mention...), which probably cost him a win, but then Max had an advantage from the monumental c*ck-up in Abu Dhabi. When you start then re-interpreting the numbers and saying: "Well, I think this driver should have won this and that driver should have on won that, etc. etc. ", you start infusing your own *personal biases* into the numbers. And as said, in science this is called *fraude* and when it is found out, it will lead to immediate retraction of papers, cancelation of Phd's and even firing of the scientist. B.) Then our "scientist" comes up with a whole slew of stats which he has produced in this way, and which nevertheless produces the clear result that Max is one of the GREATEST of ALL TIME (for instance with win percentages that *NONE* of the other greats can come close to, except for Alberto Ascari, but only for a much shorter period and in a completely different time, and also winning curves which are way ahead of ALL others, when compare on AGE. C.) Our analyst even says himself that "Max did things that very few could replicate" (or something to that effect) D.) But Lo and behold, then comes our final judgement, and our "analyst" turns around, and draws a conclusion that is 100% CONTRADICTORY to his own numbers, and struggles to put Max even in the neightbourhood of the top. Fumbling around with positions... This amount *insincerity and falsehood* is simply *PAINFULL* to watch. It is completely clear what is happening here. Being a Brit this man can not bring himself to be *honest* and draw the obvious conclusions from his data (Max is the GOAT, or at least one of the GOAT's) and starts fumbling around. This whole performance by this charlatan is nothing but *laughable* .

[@thesecretcouncil]

Remember the last raining race were all cars got equalised? Max went from p17 to P1 with a major gab between him and the number 2 at the end. He made everyone looks like regular rookies. If you ignore this fact then you're just being willfully delusional.

[@marilouhellinger8491]

you are right, typical british thinking, but not realistic

[@russtaylor385]

Super strong work by Cory. Takes enthusiasm, time and dedication. As years go by there are fewer Champions for the older guys. His analysis takes ageing out of it. Clark was that good but fewer remember now. With luck Max has a lot more of a career and may very well sit at the top table at the end. He’s knocking on the door!

[@hansvanlennep6376]

After this year, I think Max has developed the final trait that makes him arguably the most complete F1 champion of all times. My logic; His father and mother are both racing drivers, so his genes are f*cking filled with high octane. In his first years in F1, Max already showed that in terms of racecraft he was up there with Senna. Some examples: Brasil 2016, Spa 2015. In the next years, he started to develop the ruthlesness of Michael, which he had to develop in order to beat Hamilton in a year when he was most unlucky. In 2024 he had to develop the motivational side of Lewis to make sure Red Bull stayed on track and to make sure that they won the WDC. A lot of people think that Max is agressive and, as a driver, yes he definitely is. He does whatever it takes and that is also a part of his success. However, as a person he is very mature. If you watch videos of him outside of F1 you quickly notice how mature he thinks about the world he lives in. Its no surprise that he is considering to quit F1 after 2028. He realized there is more to life than just racing. Almost like Vettel does. In that regard, he has developed some core qualities of 4 great legends in this sport. Oh and I almost forgot, he has the racing style of no other than JC himself. I think Peter made another video about that. So how good is Max? Very very very good and he has the qualities to become the greatest of all times. I hope that we can enjoy his racecraft for a long time. Also in other categories. Because Brasil 2024 reminded me again of how fortunate we are to witness true legendary greatness when he is one with his car.

[@blakebarone1809]

I wonder what Peter means by saying Mika was “never repayed” for his loyalty to McLaren. I don’t know, the kept DC around, who he would always beat, gave him a great car for two seasons and he won 2 Chips. I don’t get the statement.

[@the1gladiator2]

Hamilton didn't create a dominant Mercedes, the engine regulations created that. With or without Hamilton Mercedes would have been absolutely dominant. And if you really want to credit a driver, then Rosberg gets that credit. Rosberg spend more time building the team, he was very close to Hamilton's level and you could argue Mercedes lost most of their advantage immediately after Rosberg left. I find this narrative about winning with different teams silly. Stick any of the top level drivers in a dominant car and they will win the championship. It doesn't matter which team build that car.

[@TheCrystalChassis]

"Stick any of the top drivers in a dominant car and they will win a championship." Tell that to Lando Norris. 😄

[@the1gladiator2]

@@TheCrystalChassis That's unfair. The McLaren was probably the best car over the season, but by no means would that qualify as a dominant car. This is not comparable to Mercedes 2014-2016 or 2020.

[@Bananananananannananananna]

@@the1gladiator2 Thats true. The Mclaren was properly dominant for a handful or races. Most otehr races they did face some competition. However, th at doesnt change the fact that Lando definitely couldve done better this year.

[@MrZewustyle]

Great work, very intresting ! thanks Cory and Peter

[@mislavkirac4597]

How do you effectively control for how good the car is? If you put a really bad driver in objectively fastest car and he finishes last every race, how would you know that that car is a "dominant car"? And vice versa. And also, it is suggested that there are a discrete categories of "great car" and "dominant car", which are arbitrary and subjective and in reality nothing is discrete.

[@arendruizendaal1913]

After watching both episodes of "How good is" I came to the conclusion that all/most statistics used are related to the quality of the car. That way the best ever or goat driver will always be the one driving a car that gave him advantage, which is not the goal of this analysis. For this, statistical metrics should be used that are unrelated to the car performance. If done correctly the goat list will suddenly be populated by drivers who never won a WDC, like Ronnie Peterson or Gilles Villeneuve, or even populated by drivers who never won a grand prix, like Tony Brise or 'our' Hulkenberg.

[@Thebatsign]

Yo have to factor in that when a driver shows the potential you outline, they typically get promoted to a better team

[@arendruizendaal1913]

@@Thebatsign All the guys I mentioned were recognized talents, but most died too soon, or never were given a competitive car, or were given a competitive car but had to act as 2nd driver, or drove such a wreck of a car that any talent that they had was completely hidden. What I meant is, such drivers can be found if statistical measures are used that are unrelated to car performance. I think it is hard to find such measures, but not impossible. If statistical analysis keep using traditional measures always the (multi) wdc's will come on top. Sure what Clark did was impressive, but was highlighted by the quality of his car. Maybe in the same field there was a forgotten driver who usually ended outside points who was even more skilled than Clark, but not helped by his car. I like to see that that forgotten hero will have an equal chance as Clark when statistics tries to find the goat.

[@ricardzubimendifelip9039]

I think there are just too many variables for these statistics to be that significant in a sport like F1 and there is a lack of consistency in allowing subjective elements to come into play in order to make the picks. In my opinion, the drivers of the past are being overestimated compared to the current and most recent drivers. I think Max is massively underrated, we might simply just never seen a driver who reaches this level of speed and consistency (I dont particularly root for him). Just like in any other sport, athletes of the past (especially if you really go back in time) were not professionalized enough to be compared to the current best. We also need to take into account the population in the world has increased dramatically in the last 60 o 70 years and also a lot less people were taking up karting at an early age back then, so the level of opposition can't be the same, as much as we admire the old time drivers for their bravery ( they were also skillful, obviously, but to a lesser degree). I don't think Vettel can go down in history as a better driver than Alonso, I mean, someone who has watched closely the last 20 years of F1 shouldn't place Seb higher than Fernando. I think that's an easy one, as the gap between the two is not even small and these are not two drivers of different generations. To put it into perspective, Alonso at age 43 is probably still better than Vettel was at age 33, when he signed for Aston Martin, and he wasn't beating Stroll as comfortably as Fernando is.

[@doemijmaarfriet]

e racing remains underrated, yes go race other venues. good analysis, still think there is bias in the number of races in later years. More poles and wins is then double weighted. Where is Alonso?

[@blakebarone1809]

Perhaps I’ll dive into the data, but I’m not sure how one can say Michael is unequivocally not better than Lewis. Ok, let’s toss out Michael’s Mercedes days and Lewis losing to George… never beat by a teammate. Would have won ‘99 without the leg injury, and I wonder about ‘06 without the Japan fiasco. ‘97 was close, but all on him for not winning. The Michael also came close to Ten Chippies.

[@CPez]

Trust me. I do Not like Hamilton. And I Loved Michael. But it’s very hard to make an argument in public for MS over LH. Schumacher came course to 10 Titles; but AS has Hamilton come closer to 10. The 100+/100+/7 or 8 Titles Line is hard to push lower than 4th. Most people are angry Enough with me that I have him 4th. BUT but Blake; IF Lewis sucks at Ferrari and Charles beats him? Now we can talk moving him below. Lewis in 2009-2013 was an underachievement, and AS was 2022-2024.

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

Michael didnt have world class teammates. His teammates weren't allowed to race him

[@Bosnomoya]

But, Michael used 4 of his prime years on building up competitive car with Ferrari, and on top of that he helped Mercedes to make championship car for Hamilton. Hamilton had more years in dominant car then Schumacher.

[@chrishafner5733]

This is interesting, and I appreciate the clear level of effort and passion that this guy brings. But there are a few things that make me skeptical. First, there is some obvious subjectivity being used to generate statistics and results that are then presented as “stats” - subjectivity presented as objectivity. He’s making decisions about who should have won a race or deserved to win a race and then applying his own points system to it. Interesting, but I would need a whole lot more transparency into how he’s making those decisions and how much personal biases factor into those decisions to feel comfortable giving them any weight. I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea of presenting anything with that level of personal judgment as “stats” or objective data. Much better I think to look at what actually happened rather than what “should” have happened. It’s also not clear to me how he is factoring in things specific to an era. For example, car reliability - Hamilton and Verstappen DNF roughly half to a third as often as Senna or Prost. How is that weighed? Clearly he’s making an adjustment for it, given reliability was even worse for Clark, but what and how? He said he gave Clark some benefit of the doubt, paraphrasing here “Clark had a reputation as a smooth driver so he wasn’t breaking the car.” Which, okay - Clark was awesome, but do drivers like Lauda, Stewart and Prost get the same benefit of the doubt? This is where the subjectivity and bias makes me uncomfortable. For crashes - does Senna get credit for a “should have won” in Monaco or Monza ‘88 when he threw a race away that he was leading in dominant fashion? If so, how do you compensate Prost for optimizing for *actual results* by pushing less hard but in consequence making fewer of those critical mistakes? Then how about eras with more parity? Stewart and Lauda and early Prost raced in eras where the cars were less differentiated - even great drivers with great cars didn’t sweep all before them as they did in ‘84, ‘88, or in Schumacher/Ferrari, Hamilton/Mercedes, or Verstappen eras. And also what about teammate quality? Peter made a great point that Checo was the perfect teammate for Max. Schumacher also had clear No. 2s alongside him. Hamilton had Rosberg to contend with. Senna had Prost; and Prost had Senna, Lauda, Mansell, etc - possibly the toughest group of teammates capable of taking poles and wins. For Prost/Senna I’ve done some of this work, analyzing actual results, not “what should have happened” and wins and points after the same number of races were very close (Prost slightly ahead on both) - and this is even setting aside the end of two good seasons for Prost (1990, 1993) and one bad (1991). Any analysis that puts Senna tiers ahead of Prost, justified through subjective adjustment to actual results, feels sketchy to me. Again - lots of fun, my hats off to him for his effort and passion, and I think I agree with the meta point - that Max has been hugely great but still has more mountain to climb to get to the absolute top tier. But I think he’s underrating people like Prost, Lauda, and Stewart, and just overall I disagree with the approach. The fact that this sits in Excel and he’s calling this data doesn’t make it so.

[@Thebatsign]

Hats of to your reply. I agree with you on stats. One should always go on the actual stats and not ´´should have, could have´´ been

[@EstherLeibovitz-ul5pd]

The numbers are very clear Max is one of the GOAT's. His winning percentages are better than anyone, except Ascari from the "amateur age". And his age based curves are way ahead of all others. And the guy even says so with as many words: Max does things that others will find very hard to replicate. Still these men do no have courage to simply be *honest* and acknowledge the *Truth* : Max already is one of the greats. At the same time Hamilton gets preferential treatment. My faith in humanity got another knock today...

[@Felyxx]

Wasn't Max beaten in points by Ricciardo in 2016 and 2017? Or does the vs Teammate statistic take other factors into account

[@Lanse1984]

Takes everything into account. DnF's that are not your fault arw removed I think

[@n.b.5258]

You're right... but Verstappen didn't join RB until the 5th race into the 2016 season, was only 19 in 2017, and he handily beat Ricciardo in 2018 which caused Ricciardo to run to Renault and change his trajectory from potential champion to occasional race winner in a footnote of F1 history. In any event, it's probably more like a tie since Ricciardo had those first 4 races in a much better car.

[@Zeep3]

Wasn’t Ricciardo also considered back then as the best driver on the grid?

[@bobkeul7682]

​ @n.b.5258 No he is never been beaten, points are useless comparison on drivers stats, teams wont look at that either.. usually only the Sky media fanboys who are looking at race points. Its actually Sainz who was his main competitor/rival not RIC. Although he came in at 17yr and Sainz was 20yr old. Faster Qualify Sainz vs verstappen 0.06% Ricciardo vs verstappen 0.11% Gasly vs verstappen 0.45% Albon vs verstappen 0.62% Perez vs verstappen 0.46% Faster Race wins Sainz vs verstappen 54.5% Ricciardo vs verstappen 60.6% Gasly vs verstappen 90% Albon vs verstappen 88.9% Perez vs verstappen 88.1%

[@n.b.5258]

@@bobkeul7682 I don't think you meant to reply to me.

[@traind]

Where Prost excelled is how good he did despite the skill level of his teammates. Prost's arguably had the most skilled teammates of any F1 driver ever.

[@AlwaysCurious-g5z]

I felt Peter's comment about Max's teamates being sub par was totally brushed over by the guest hahah!! To be truly objective if you add teamates who are not on the same level you would then be able to look at the reasons why his sats look soo good!!

[@rientsdijkstra4266]

Complete BS. A weak teammate is a hindrance and a DISadvantage, because a good teammate can help his nr.1. by protecting his back, giving him tows, etc., and - most important - a good teammate steels points from the opposition. A weak teammate can not do that. And the idea that a weak teammate makes it somehow easier for the nr.1. because he faces less opposition is also a *logical fallacy* . This is simple to prove: say that there are for instance 3 other drivers in a competition that are potentially able to beat the nr.1. Would it make any difference if those others are driving in the same car or in other cars? A point lost is a point lost, whether that "competitor" drives in the same car or not! Now if the driver in question is in a *very superior car* (like Hamilton in the Mercedes in the early hybrid era) that fast teammate would be more of a threat in that same superior car (but lo and behold: Hamilton had Rosberg and Bottas as teammates... NOT equal talents), but in Verstappens case in 2024, the mcLaren, the Ferrari and the Mercedes where FASTER, so drivers like Piastri, Russell and Sainz where MORE of a threat in those cars, than they would have been in the Red Bull. Conclusion. This whole "weak teammate" story goes *nowhere* .

[@AlwaysCurious-g5z]

@rientsdijkstra4266 This is my summary to comparing Hamilton, Alonso and Verstappen as I deem it fairer as they have crossed paths in the same era. Best Against Rivals: Hamilton. He has consistently beaten multiple elite rivals (Alonso, Vettel, Rosberg, Verstappen) over 15+ years, including periods where he did not have the fastest car. Best Against Teammates: Hamilton, narrowly edging out Verstappen due to the stronger teammates he faced (e.g., Alonso, Button, Rosberg). Verstappen has dominated weaker teammates, but Hamilton has defeated elite teammates in equal machinery. Verstappen has gone up against unproven talents in the same team however, the Red Bull team has been moduled around him unlike Hamilton especially in the case when he went up against his own teammates. Hardest Competition: Alonso. His rivals included Schumacher, Hamilton, and Vettel, often in stronger machinery. Alonso's ability to fight for championships in underperforming cars showcases his incredible talent despite the odds. In conclusion, Verstappen is definitely one of the top 15 drivers in history however he definitely has more to prove e.g. beat stronger (championship winning) teamates or even win in a different team (car not designed by Adrian Newey car).

[@rientsdijkstra4266]

@@AlwaysCurious-g5z 🤣🤣🤣"Verstappen one of the top 15????" You got to be *joking* brother. Verstappen is the GOAT. He *already* has the measure for Senna and Schumachter, and is FAR ahead of Hamilton. - Hamilton got ALL his WDC's in a vastly *superior car* , Verstappen got 2 WDC's in a *non-superior* car - Verstappen has better WINNING percentages than anybody besides Alberto Ascari (who drove in the "Amateur era" when it was much more easy to get such numbers) - Verstappen outperformed Hamilton in Karting, Where Hamilton entered into 18 competition and won 6 (33%) Verstappen: 45 competitions, WON 23 (51%) - Verstappen got 2 European Championships and 1 World Championship in Karting, Hamilton only 1 European Championship. - After Karting Verstappen immediately went to F3, and immediately won 10 races of which 6 races in a ROW and became 3d in the European Championship (with several DNF's for technical reasons) - After Karting Hamilton first did several other classes (formula Renault I believe) still Hamilton's 1st year in F3 was *no succes* . He won only 1 race. Only in his 2nd year did Hamilton become dominant in F3. - Hamilton "defeated elite teammates"? Bruh, Neither Rosberg nor Bottas have ever been on the level of Hamilton. They where good - mature! - 2nd level drivers that did a *good job* at *protecting Hamiltons back* and *taking points from the competition* (as was their job). Something that Verstappen *sorely missed* with a useless teammate like Perez. Those teammates where an ADvantange for Hamilton, and a DISadvantage for Verstappen. - in 2024 Hamilton was outperformed by Russell... - etc. etc. I can go like this for a long time. *REALITY* : Verstappen, Senna and Schumacher are the GOATs, they are really on a different level. Hamilton is *good* but a level below Verstappen. Period. Cope.

[@TheRackuipedu]

love it - moore of statistics vs eye-sight

[@Jannie-p7j]

This is a fun guy.

[@luisbretonv]

I know this is a bit out of place but when you say you would like to see Max doing other categories, like Le Mans, I wonder your opinion on Juan Pablo Montoya. I guess not in the category of the bests of all time, but makes a point across many categories. Same as Alonso, I guess

[@Hmhm_racer]

have do you guys rate Alo? According to Elo by Mr. V's Garage, he is the best

[@WalkingESO]

13:52 Schumacher won 1994, 95, had the absolute speed to win 97, 98, was injured in 99 when someone with a questionable skill of Irvine almost won, then won 2000, 01, 02, 03, 04, and lost 06 due to engine failure. Schumacher could have been the first driver with double digit championships.

[@MrGc6asl]

i'd love to see these statistics take into account the level of the rest of the grid. Add weight to the level of competition. Surely the average level of the grid this past 10 years was way higher compared the days of Fangio.

[@killianpotworoska3096]

I keep saying Lewis Hamilton does not belong in the lists of the greats at all! No driver in that list has ever known the absolute dominance of the fastest car and the best team (8 world titles in a row). And even within that given Lewis has lost 2 world championships despite having the best car and team. Lewis' statistics are based solely on that extreme dominance! Lewis was beaten by Max Verstappen in an inferior car and for the whiners who keep talking about stolen, statistically Max Verstappen was the better driver of the two, that 2021 season with more victories etc... and has fully deserved that World Title with a bit of luck ;-) achieved in that last race. The regulation changes have never brought so much advantage to just 1 team as they did in the hybrid era for Mercedes. All facts, which in Lewis Hamilton's case are consistently ignored. Lewis Hamilton is a great driver who mainly drives on technique and for that he needs a perfect car because otherwise he won't even cause a ripple in the water after throwing a stone. It is time that the Hamilton fan learns to make an honest and factual analysis about his real qualities and achievements. It is not that Lewis just came around the corner after his debut in 2007. No one will be able to deny that Formula 1 only became fun and exciting again during the dominance of Mercedes, when a certain Max Verstappen appeared!

[@TifosiLegend44]

You can’t even believe the hogwash that you typed here.

[@quigglyz]

Put other drivers in the turbo hybrid Merc and they’ll get 7 WDCs. Lewis was not special. He lucked into the greatest race car of all time.

[@michaelthompson2346]

Well since you've already concluded that your obviously biased comment is 'all facts' there's not point in any refutation

[@saeedkissanga2416]

@@quigglyzyou still need a great driver so all I’m getting from you is bias

[@Mr-BareMinimum]

Lewis a great driver indeed because even with a dominant car one needs consistency to win world titles, which he showed in those years but i agree that hamilton can't get the best out of every car. On the other hand, max has the ability to extract the best out of any given car. we can't deny that hamilton was consistent enough to win those titles and in 2007, 2008 he was also consistent. It is just the fact that given any car that doesn't suit his style, he completely drops it while these other "Great" drivers seem to find the limit of every type of car

[@PapiNewGunie]

So the conclusion to this video is that Max is in fact, pretty darn good. 🙂

[@rientsdijkstra4266]

Max is the GOAT. Already. Simple and clear.

[@Grammarlings-cf8yw]

I don't agree with that logic that to know the greatest F1 driver of all time you should see them compete in other disciplines. That's I guess to find out the best driver of all time. Though it'll be impossible to really compare since not everyone races in every type. To know who the "greatest F1 driver" is, you look just a F1.

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

Then Montoya would be the best

[@Grammarlings-cf8yw]

@@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762 Montoya is gravely underrated - F1 insiders know he's absolutely quality even in F1.

[@blasecorrea8350]

Glazing part 2

[@mr_movieguru]

Max is amazing since arriving in f1 in 2015, if he had a merc he would have instantly fought for championships. You can't deny his skills. He is already better then most. Top 3,5 easy

[@Adogcallednoortje]

Someone is proving a point!

[@olafhermans]

great job, guys

[@Milkywayboy]

Lewis’s dominance was due to his perfectly timed jump to Mercedes! Even Russel jumped in that car and should have won the race! Mercedes was the fastest car for 7-8 years! And Lewis was super lucky to jump on that train at the perfect time

[@djdrastic1]

Latifi would have been WC in that era Merc

[@leeunger3434]

I think one thing to consider is Schumacher developed the car for years that Hamilton won the championships with, Toto said it himself. I think Michael should get added points for that.

[@Enzoblueblood]

That’s not Toto said but whatever

[@leeunger3434]

Sure did russ brawn said it to​@@Enzoblueblood

[@Enzoblueblood]

@@leeunger3434 Schumacher left the team in 2012; Lewis won 1st title for Mercedes in 2014. How the fk did Schumacher develop the 2014 car. And what about Rosberg? If memory serves, he annihilated Michael when they were teammates. So doesn’t Rosberg get any development credit? My good, you Hamilton trolls will say anything.

[@dontwanna1602]

Kinda sad to see alonso not even in this convo. Love him. Maybe he is not one of the goats, but arguably he is one of the most entertaining driver to watch.

[@JonBobben]

Lots of great stuff, but numbers doesn’t tell everything. 1. Alonso. Seriously. Where is he? A few points and he’s a five time champion. 2012 is one of the greatest seasons ever. Spa and Grojean ruined his championship. 2. Dominant cars. Look at 1-2s. 3. Level of team mate. 4. You can’t credit Hamilton with Mercedes build up. That’s just wrong. 5. 2007 was never Hamilton. McLaren cheated. In a legal car, Ferrari wins. 6. 2008. Massa wins. The McLaren is illegally inspired by Ferrari and you can’t unlearn stolen intellectual property. Also Singapore. Obviously 7. Schumacher didn’t lose to team mates, Lewis did. 8. Lewis needs many more races and seasons to beat Schumi 9. Competition/dominance. With a 23 race season, when you race in a completely dominant car with Perez being your only competition. Of course you will look good.

[@elecovanrenss1352]

what should be taken into account as well, is that when clark drove his car, there were only a few or maybe none? buttons on the racing wheel to take care off. therefor he could put most of his mind on racing. these days they changed inputs on the steering wheel for every turn. the wheel looks like something you see in a flight simulator. making it much more difficult driving wise. you need more brain capacity on stuff that jim clark never had to think off.

[@MM-qm9ld]

Eh well they had to think about OTHER things than the steering wheel, as the cars weren't as solid as today and they needed to bring home these box cars they were geld together just barely in some cases. I see your point but there's a lot of streamlining that technology has brought. Do you honestly think advancements in technology have made driving more DIFFICULT rather than all around easier? That would be a difficult thing to prove. Drivers today wouldn't even claim that racing today is harder. They all pine for the old days and see a lot of the grit and magic as lost. If anything I'd say your argument is better when considering tire management. Thats something a bit more of a skill of today than the past, as even the verstappens discussed in an interview I saw one time. How Jos said Max has to sort of gauge a race more than he had to bc its not flat out racing. So I'd say that's your argument more than the steering wheel having buttons on it. In which case it's more the regs, outside politics, and demands the sport puts on itself that makes it harder for drivers, certainly not the tech advancements.

[@elecovanrenss1352]

@@MM-qm9ld i have no idea to be honest if a car of the old is more easy to drive then as of today. i can not compare it. however i do know a race driver of today would much more easy adapt to a car of the old generation, then guys from the past get used to a F1 car of today. as said there are so many buttons. and these drivers changes these settings for almost every corner by themselves. it is crazy to be honest the mental capability these people have.

[@janickbraultfortier]

Unfortunately using solely statistics as a measuring stick for the greatest is a flawed method, too many variables to account for.

[@POVRR3]

@@janickbraultfortier did you watch part 1 video? All unlucky moments are removed from equation and purely based on actual race pace.

[@demainesolomons6007]

Correct, every time Peter interrupts Cory, he (Peter) adds data that should be considered, not forgetting the many things not mentioned.......so the methodology is seriously flawed..... too many moving parts.

[@Cloxxki]

Max doing a surprise full Indy program by buying a car and then selling the sponsor space...imagine that. Even on the simulator, he has a great batting average on ovals. He might have great fun on the GT3 circuit, but I wonder how much extra he can offer there in BOP cars with lots of different characteristics.

[@Bladel1965]

There's no reason to think F1 is any different than any other competitive sport. Taking that in mind the majority of current drivers on the grid would be better than all the great drivers in the past. Most athletes performing and winning decades ago would not even make it through the qualifications up against current athletes. Especially in those sports where physical performance plays a large role. Drivers today, like athletes in other sports, are much better prepared in terms of physical strength, always guided by science and personal trainers, best nutrition and everything else what's needed to perform on the highest level. That's why in sports records are always broken, especially those records that are related to physical performance. Number of championships or race wins can only be measured against direct competition and don't say anything when comparing to other era's because the level of competition in the field is most likely completely different. So, all these stats are an hour of entertainment, nothing else. Just enjoy the sport, the competition and admire those that manage to beat the bunch, like I've been doing for about 5 decades now.

[@ftc-nl1041]

Stattics stattics and stattics... Well, take Senna 1988, Senna did "not really won" all his championships by himself but by rules. If you look at 1988 there were 16 races but only the half did count for the championship. The 5 worst results were deleted from every driver. Prost did score 105 points but 2 DNF's and 3 P2's were not counted for the championship for Prost (the 5 deleted races) so he did get 87 points left from his 105 points (18 points deleted) at the end of that season. Senna did get 90 points after deleted his 5 worst results, his deleted races were a disqualifying, a DNF a P10 a P6 and a P4 for Senna were only 4 points deleted so Senna won that Championship with 90 points in 1988. But as you can see at the numbers Prost was much better that season then Senna. So you can go on with statics till infinity.

[@bailey979555]

I didn’t know Scott Storch was the biggest f1 fan

[@superkoosable]

The reasaon why you put Senna at the top is the reason why I also consider him to be best driver of all time. Can't talk about the drivers before him since I started watiching since 1985. Numbers can't define for how good he was. A pure race driver. However, could he have done all those amazing overtakes and win from the back of the grid in this time with the tire-managemen and much bigger cars? think Max also showed some insance moves most notably his overtake on Nico Rosberg in 2016 Brazil.

[@luciferdeville]

This video (and the part one too) are a very nice take on numbers. I don't agree with the last part but the 'eye test' is much more about personal opinion and much less about facts. If you include factors that are not, or not easy to measure it will always be a subjective view. I agree with the top 3, but not Hamilton in 4th, I rate Schumacher higher, so him in 4th. Considering age, experience prior to F1, level of competition and more factors that have changed so much in the 70+ years, I rate Verstappen as current nr5. Hamilton down to 6th place. But, it is subjective, so others may disagree here. If Verstappen keeps his level up, he will soon climb the mountain into the podium and possible top spot.

[@Bananananananannananananna]

Cant we just say that all these drivers are amazing?? What is the need to say ONE IS GOOD and the rest are overrated pieces of trash. In no particular order, the best drivers of the modern era are Lewis, Max and Vettel. The older generation is Senna, Prost and Michael. And tbh i dont know enough about the Clark days to pick any other drivers. Like calling Lewis 'bad' is wrong. People like Mazepin, are bad drivers. A 'bad' driver cannot win 7 titles, and cannot challenge for the title in their rookie season. Max also isnt 'bad' (for the teamLH stans becuase most people i see glaze max like anything). Max is one of the best ever, but by no means is some next level fifth dimension driver who can take a Stake wheelie bin to the title, because nobody is.

[@0ppaiDragon]

The fact there's an argument on HAM having 8-10 WDC but not doing the same for Schumi is ridiculous. Schumi would've north of 110+ wins with the current format, An easily has a contention for the '98, '99 & '06 WDCs... if not for reliability, he'd have done the greatest comeback in F1 history vs Alonso/Renault. That Clark/Fangio/Senna ceiling is very arbitrary. Max is on a path to break every record but he isn't ahead of Schumi/Ham yet.

[@HeinBosman-y6f]

Doing all those statics and then coming to conclusions by saying 'it feels like' and 'I still think' and 'the beauty of statistics is it should be hard to reach the top five'. No, it shouldn't be hard, it should be measurable. So, a shame, it was fun to watch these two videos, but in the end it tails off into the area of opinion and feelings.

[@commissar6860]

I don't think reliability should be taken as "bad luck". It's the teams that manufacture the cars, and F1 is a team sport. If the team has an error in design or in manufacturing a part then that's part of the game and do better. Being taken out by a rival in turn 1 or hitting debris and getting a puncture is not the same category.

[@TheArjanTube]

It is much easier to be much faster than others if you can easily die in the car. Your talent gets amplified, as others can't try to overdrive the car (or their own talent) to get closer to you, they simply can't take that risk. The gaps between drivers will be bigger as a result.

[@TheArjanTube]

Also, the pool of talent is much smaller, as it is filtered by the fact that drivers must be willing to accept that death is quite a realistic outcome of them competing in the sport.

[@caskraker]

Max is the best. Blabla all you want. He is the best driver of his era. You cannot compare eras.

[@antonihardonk8970]

And the current budgetcap rules make it harder for teams to dominate then before.

[@tarikviaer-mcclymont5762]

Where does Montoya go?

[@bobkeul7682]

who?

[@hansbig7550]

How good? Goat.

[@brembopollypor9965]

On Ricciardo leaving Red Bull: saw a documentary once, that featured private chats between him and his then manager (don’t remember the name); I swear to you, the dude was arguing for his own signing commission or something, just talked Daniel out of his seat. Awful really. Of course Daniel is responsible for his own decisions, but a different manager might very well have nudged him into thinking differently and staying.

[@MarkRidesCoasters]

Part 1 was promising. Part 2 made me realize I’ve just wasted my time.

[@Torero2901]

Who is "Emo"? @7:30 table

[@Freeze014]

Emerson Fittipaldi had the nickname Emmo so my guess and the lack of Fittipaldi in the list... is that it is him but misspelled.

[@skywankerlukee]

when the sport get bigger and there is more people it means your chance to be the best gets smaller and smaller simply you have to be better and better every year thats why cant compere old drivers they had it more easy

[@oktayyilmaz5134]

Yeah Mr. Cory Pesaturo you are a Lewis fan...so thank you for your stats...But not your conclusion...