PF: WOTR EE - METAMAGIC Guide: MAX Power with SPELLCASTERS!

[@MarekAndreansky]

You can make spells that are added by rings to spontaneous casters stay in your spellbook by applying metamagic to them, then unequipping the ring. The upgraded variant stays. Used this trick too greatly expand Daerans spellbook in combo with completely normal metamagic feat.

[@palid11]

Using Heighten spell, you don't even need to upgrade it - you can "heighten" it to the same level. For this reason, Heighten is a must have feat on any spontaneous caster in my party regardless of the mythic path 😁

[@cRPGBro]

Yep, it's part of why those items are even more amazing!

[@sametekiz3709]

so you can have a daeran with fireball and controlled fireball?

[@MarekAndreansky]

@@sametekiz3709 If there is a ring that adds the spell then yes - apply metamagic then take the ring off.

[@sametekiz3709]

@@MarekAndreansky After playing 120 hours of Kingmaker,then 40 hours of wotr just found that out,thanks my dude reading is overrated for every subject i find,i am going straight to youtube.

[@KingOfMadCows]

Don't forget the favorite metamagic mythic feats and the Trickster's Completely Normal Spell feat. Favorite metamagic lets you reduce the cost of a metamagic feat by 1 level, so Extend and Bolster Spell will not raise the level of a spell at all, Empower would only raise a spell level by 1, etc. And Completely Normal spell reduces the spell level by 1. They can allow you to apply metamagic to higher level spells that you normally can't.

[@Flagonborn]

Yeah my wizards always have selective spell as their favorite, let’s you put it in every spell for no cost, and never have to worry about friendly fire again.

[@BBukeeB]

I'm actually curious how that works, especially when you mix it with heighten, like does it nullify the effects? Does it actually reduce the spell levels of the spell used? Also how perfectly normal level 1 spells work.

[@tacojr59]

@@BBukeeB Essentially they become Cantrips 😅

[@raff_spriggles_tfn5910]

Is it possible to turn shocking grasp into a cantrip that could be used automatically for a sword saint Magus? I can never get it to work.

[@Flagonborn]

@@raff_spriggles_tfn5910 as a trickster only I think

[@samegh2175]

I love that u still make videos so frequently about WOTR I’m so thankful 🎉🎉🎉

[@cRPGBro]

And thank you for the comment!

[@palid11]

If you want high level 24h buffs, there is a way around the fact there are no Greater Extend metamagic rods. A bit complicated though: - there is "Timely assistance" belt sold by the Storyteller in Act4 which makes your next spell Extended after an ally (not the wearer) kills a hostile creature (must be hostile, even though the description does not say so, tested it using charge on an ally/summon) - also in Act5 there is a mace "Grasp of Devotion" in the "Legacy of the Ancients" location which makes the wielder's next spell Extended after he kills a hostile creature (again, must be hostile) - additionally, there is a way around the "hostile" creature requirement as well, if you don't want to wait for an encounter with enemies - you can equip Jaws of Jackal gloves (Act4, fleshmarkets) and summon a specifically good aligned creature (e.g. azata, deva) and it will be hostile. Then using one of the above techniques you get to Extend any spell for the cost of casting one additional other spell. Ultimately though, it's up to you to decide if all this hassle is worth it or not and just take the Extend metamagic feat instead 😃

[@cRPGBro]

Thank you for the tips! It's strange we don't get Greater Extend Rods in Wrath, they are even in the game's files.

[@notalefty999]

Definitely take extended metamagic. The hassle isnt worth one feat. Additionally, extend spell is often useful just to allow more castings of good spells.

[@connorgrish5246]

Literally just days ago I was thinking to myself, "wow, it would be great if this guy did a metamagic guide" thanks so much!

[@cRPGBro]

You're welcome, and thank you for the comment!

[@neiljopling4693]

Bolstered Elemental Assessor works well with Elemental Barrage because the splash damage triggers the full Elemental Barrage damage dice.

[@cRPGBro]

Indeed, it's probably the only spell that really gets something out of EB nowadays.

[@AlacrityTW]

Nice guide. I do want to point out that mathematically persistent is more cost effective than heighten unless your DC - enemy save < 4 because it scales quadratically whereas heighten is linear. Still you make a good point about allowing way more casts although almost all damage and duration are based on CL which isn't affected by spell level.

[@cRPGBro]

Persistent can be handy for forcing double saves indeed, but sadly it will not increase DC, at least not for the default level increase it does to just apply the metamagic effect.

[@AlacrityTW]

@@cRPGBro true but when evaluating the cost of 2 spell levels, persistent is has higher chance of success than heighten unless DC - save < 4 in which case it's already a hail mary attempt. Full calculations here: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRyM2ufcZlA6pOSl2h9OOUFCVUIos8LEzYIh3VbEhGuaE7VqJdUNlmLJaYqT3FVtKw1PeALhM3kQafJ/pubhtml

[@leth5540]

Also, Arcane bloodline is funny...

[@palid11]

Regarding the 24h enduring buffs. It is worth mentioning, it is now possible to achieve the required 25 caster level also on non-merged and companion characters using Robe of 7 Sins (Act4, Tresure hunting DLC) + other school specific spell level increasing items: - Transmutation (e.g. Haste, Firebrand, Transformation): +3 Ro7S, +1 Scimitar of Wind (Act2, Drezen), +1 Headband of reshaping (Act4, Herrax, Ten Thousand Delights), +2 Dawnflower's Kiss (Ac5, Ineluctable prison, evil choice) - Evocation (e.g. Divine Power !!!): +3 Ro7S, +2 Ashmaker staff (Act4, "familiar face", Bad Luck Tavern, must save a halfling previously in Leper's smile in Act2) - Illusion (e.g. Displacement, Greater Invisibility): +3 Ro7S, +3 Phantasmal Guide staff (Act 4, Krebus, Fleshmarkets) - Divination (e.g. Sense Vitals): +3 Ro7S, +1 Fiery Spell weaver staff (Act5, Greybor companion quest, must kill Horzalah), +1 Scroll of Divination (randomly generated by Duality of Conjuration and Summoning, Act 2, Lost Chapel) Yes, I have my characters running around 24/7 hasted, displaced, firebranded and with Divine power and/or Sense vitals on top 😄 It is also quite funny to have the "Team 2" transformed Nenio and Amber with Divine power on autopilot destroy resurrected Khorramzadeh in Threshold even on Unfair 😄

[@palid11]

also Arcanists and Arcane Exploiter Wizards get to increase caster level by 2 with Potent magic

[@cRPGBro]

Yep, some class combos with gear can achieve 24 hour for 1 round/level too, it's just that merged Angel/Lich really get to do it the earliest by far, especially Lich.

[@leth5540]

​@@palid11okay, if anyone would be the one to ask this - it's you. Have you by any chance tested Nenio+ES line+Librarian cloak and Specialist belt (I think they're called that?)+ Extended scrolls (presumably written by a somewhat dedicated "scriber" merc) ? So far my lazyness gets the better of curiosity in terms of testing this nonsense for myself...

[@palid11]

@@leth5540 not sure what you mean by "ES line", but ... enduring spells mythic feat does not work with scrolls, that much I tested 😄

[@leth5540]

@@palid11 exactly what I meant... That's a shame

[@MaelraJade]

Oh well thanks for this video. I have over 550 hours in Wrath and the entire time I assumed that I did not understand how selective metamagic works. Since the feat talks about selecting a number of allies that wont be affected ... I thought there'd be a "designate x targets that will ignore this spell" menu of some kind.

[@booradley6832]

I know for you selective isnt that important but for those of us that arent absolutely crushing the game on unfair with no party and naked, its a pretty huge help. Being able to stand in a sirocco, polar midnight, any variety of pit or banshees wail is quite powerful for your tanks

[@xd-ko9oo]

awesome guide

[@Syanlii]

I've been enjoying your guides a lot, thank you!

[@cRPGBro]

And thanks for the comment!

[@neiljopling4693]

Maximize works well for Gold Dragons size the damage dice size increases up to D10.

[@cRPGBro]

It's a pity the dice increase from GD comes so late!

[@neiljopling4693]

@@cRPGBro It is odd that the best class to turn into a Gold Dragon is Hagborn.

[@leth5540]

Gets even funnier, should you (somehow) find yourself in Arcane Trickster... Come to think of it - might just be actually beating the pure damage potential of the merged mythic spell + bolster this way)

[@Smittenz1]

Excellent video, I've been using the rods quite a bit but have neglected using the feats.

[@cRPGBro]

Be sure to get at least Heighten for most spellcasters as a feat!

[@MrVolke13]

Persistent is really good, well worth the slot increase (if it's a good spell). It increases your chance of landing the spell by two. it's like casting the spell twice in one action, like cheaper less versatile quicken for control spells. The only way 2 DC will be as good as persistent is if your DC only exceeds the enemy saving throw by 2 or less, which is not often as long as you are debuffing saves properly. There is really nothing better for a control caster. Favorable magic is obviously better (and by far the best mythic ability for control caster, which is why azata is the best path for DC casting) but they stack !

[@anomanomom239]

Given more or less gaussian distribution of the enemy saves persistent metamagic decreases expected enemy saves by about 3 points. At that point it is indeed worth it. Now if you already had a reroll advantage from misfortune hex or favorable magic or eldritch font surge then it suddenly becomes considerably less useful because the expected save decrease would be considerably lower. TLDR: it kinda depends. Not worth it to stack multiple rerolls. One reroll is very valuable though. Probability rules are funny like that.

[@jleonas]

As I pressed Enter on the KZbin search for "Metamagic Guide WOTR," I was thinking, "I hope there is one from cRPG Bro." Hell yeah, thank you for this guide, really helpful.

[@cRPGBro]

Glad I could help!

[@nixquev]

Thanks for this. Favorite Metamagic really makes all this shine: selective can be free, along with extend and reach. Completely normal spell also allows you to use level 1 as cantrips for unlimited uses. A Bolstered 0 magic missile is some pretty cool free range attack. Completely normal is like heighten, just in reverse 😂. Trickster as usual, cheating the game.

[@cRPGBro]

Favorite Bolster is pretty fun indeeed for no cost! Trickster used to even be able to turn any spell into a cantrip before it was fixed, hah!

[@csdn4483]

Have a possible suggestion, maybe a re-build on Ember as a full on Blaster caster and throwing in a level of Sorcerer/Cross-Blooded Sorcerer and making it Fire Elemental (thematic given her backstory) with addition of Gold Dragon/Red Dragon (with cross-blooded and additional bloodline mythic) to turn all her energy spells into fire based making her a full on blaster caster (prior build was more oriented to Hellfire spam with stunlocking through various enchantment attack spells). Basically, make something similar to the Lich Winter Witch build, but tailor it towards fire and specific to Ember. Items to use with this: Stormlord's Resolve (for the lightning spells) - can technically be removed after setting up metamagic of the lightning spells Mallander's Insult (adds 2d6 unholy damage to fire spells) Plague of Madness or Quarterstaff of the War Mage (if PoM is on someone else) Ring of Pyromania Deadly Rays

[@jomaramomas7682]

Thanks for this bro, I like this type of videos, pls keep this up.

[@cRPGBro]

I sure will!

[@annmester2740]

This was very useful! thanks

[@cRPGBro]

Always glad to help!

[@FledgePaddock]

I imagine you're perhaps a little disappointed, as a CRPG aficionado, to get today's news that the Pathfinder: Abomination Vaults video game adaptation by BKOM, launching a Kickstarter campaign, is going to be a co-operative hack and slash action RPG, instead of a second edition ruleset turn-based CRPG.

[@LEdungeonmaster]

I would love to see a buffs setup for party via bubble buffs. Like, which buffs do you use on NORMAL BUFFS, IMPORTANT BUFFS, AND SHORT BUFFS.

[@mossfloss]

Super helpful, Thank you!

[@neiljopling4693]

A Trickster Scroll Savant can get level 30 on scrolls they read with UMD 1 mythic trick. The scroll scriber rather than the caster needs to know the enduring version of the spell and write the Metamagic version but it means a Scroll Savant Trickster with the Greater Enduring mythic feat could cast spells from other classes that last for 24 hrs.

[@altairtankeev8130]

It is not work.

[@leth5540]

So does it or does it not work? Anyone?

[@altairtankeev8130]

​@@leth5540greater enduring not work for scroll

[@kiratt77]

Azata and Persistent stacks, (for 4 rolls if I remember correctly) can be exploited in several ways. OFC it is always better if you just have a DC that the monsters cannot reach, but sometimes it is hard...

[@anomanomom239]

Stacking rerolls has diminishing returns given more or less gaussian distribution of the enemy saves.

[@yuriiherbenko8381]

​​​​@@anomanomom239 basically, you get ~3.7 chances of 20 for Deskari to be turned into a dog in the first round, so you just need to reload 14-15 times to achieve it with 95% probability.😂😂😂

[@tenkokuugen]

Don't forget that persistant metamagic and favorable magic do stack together. There is diminishing returns but it can be very effective together. The biggest thing that persistant and favorable magic does is minimizes the chance of 5% fail rolls to 1.25% by forcing two rolls. If you forced 4 rolls... it's very improbably to get 4 5% rolls in a row. You do have to get your DC high enough to get to that point but it ensures that once you get your DC high enough your spells will land consistently.

[@shaitanmo]

Favorable Magic and Persistent Spell forces the enemy to roll 3 times and pick the worst. So if the enemy has a 50% chance to make it normally, it suddenly becomes 12.5% Also you could combine it with Misfortune ;)

[@tenkokuugen]

@@shaitanmo It is not 3 times. It is 4 times when you combine Favorable Magic and Persistent Magic. "Whenever an enemy makes a saving throw against her spells, they roll the die twice and take the worst result." "Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect." You cast a spell. Enemy Rolls twice and take worst result (Favorable Magic). If both makes their save, roll again (Persistant Magic). Enemy rolls to save but also rolls twice and takes worst result (Favorable Magic).

[@shaitanmo]

@@tenkokuugen For some reason I remembered that is saw 3 rolls when it was favorable and persistent (maybe a previous patch or beta). But checked now and IF the enemy succeeds on the first, then the next two rolls show up.

[@joaoteixeira8349]

That's not quite how it works. The enemy needs to roll 4 20's on a row, which is a 1 in 160.000 chance (0.000625%). Persistant metamagic/favourable magic gives a 1 in 400 chance (0.25%).

[@leth5540]

Very true, although it could be argued, that Misfortune having a full negation save of it's own could make it not quite worth bothering with

[@ipnpen311]

Good Video. Thank You!

[@fabioferreiragomesdias6090]

Great video again. For next videos, could you make some build that uses ceremonial falcata and dazzling display mythic feat? I was working on a dual wield falcata but i have no clue about how to use this weapon effectvely

[@PawPawPandas]

cRPG is our bro!

[@cRPGBro]

Thanks, friend!

[@drewmalesky9869]

Can you do an ultimate Summoner build? I want to fill the screen with meat shields. Bonus points if it's not demon or devil.

[@Scierwa]

Love your videos and guides. Very helpful and easy to understand. Finally have fun while playing this game! I have a question. As a wizard Lich, how can I resurrect my undead companions with spells? And is there a way for a wizard to get a pet mount (dog or wolf)?

[@cRPGBro]

Hi there, and thank you! For a Lich, you can't really ressurrect the undead companions, but they will automatically revive upon rest I believe. There really is no way of getting a Dog or Wolf on a Wizard, but you can get the Triceratops for free through the Triceratops Statuette item found at the end of Chapter 2. It also Trips on all attacks so is great too!

[@Scierwa]

@@cRPGBro Thank you, You're the best!

[@altairtankeev8130]

​@@cRPGBrowater kinetic ressurected undead companion

[@hecklerkoch7470]

Nenio using bloster,empower and maximized hellfire scroll from ember silly thing ive done in this game

[@cRPGBro]

Nenio's boost to Scroll CL can really help Hellfire Ray reach max power earlier!

[@lucassiqueira6098]

Really good content, the pathfinder system is soo nuanced and the owlcat version is soo liberal, that even after 1000 hours hours on steam i still learned something. Really good

[@cRPGBro]

Thank you! I always try my best at explaining the mechanics.

[@maximefouquet6808]

Please dude, I BEG you to do a Guts build. For those who want this, please like this comment

[@designatedvillain738]

Azata Cavalier please!!

[@jmilla321]

Ok so I was thinking of taking a 1 level dip into quarterstaff master and playing an angle quarterstaff ecclesitheurge that is reasonably decent in melee. Seems I could full send into just strength and wisdom. I think quarterstaffs are cool but going full quarterstaff monk seems kinda boring. Additionally I feel I am seeing a lot of the quarterstaffs being better suited to casters than to monks. My main question is, how much do I lose at 20th level from not having the full merged spell caster progression?

[@KirDmA]

If you are going for 1 level monk - you lose exactly 1 CL from cleric. For merged casters it is almost nothing, but it can delay lvl 10 spells a little bit.

[@neiljopling4693]

I played a Sensei 2 /Empyreal 8/ EK 10 in Kingmaster and it was a pretty good melee caster. The 2 Sensei lets you use Wisdom to attack with monk weapons like quarterstaff. You end up with a 16 BAB and up to level 8 spells. Wisdom becomes the attribute you use to hit, cast spells, and also add to AC.

[@jmilla321]

@@neiljopling4693 I don’t think having respectable strength should be an issue so I don’t think I’d want to give up the higher spellcasting, I was thinking with the one level dip I won’t have to give up the highest level spells, just a few spell slots that I can make up with abundant casting and a couple caster levels, I just don’t really know how much it hurts and how much better pure cleric would do with the powerful angle spells

[@jmilla321]

@@neiljopling4693 I’ll take a look at sensei and see what it has to offer tho

[@neiljopling4693]

@@jmilla321 Ecclesitheurge with 2 Sensei would make more sense than a normal cleric since you can’t use armour for either of them

[@Grrymjo]

Persistent Phantasmal Killer helped my party in some tough situations.

[@cRPGBro]

It can be handy indeed if you are Illusion focused like Nenio.

[@spellandshield]

Muito fixe!

[@cRPGBro]

Thank you! 😃

[@leth5540]

Was a bit disappointed not to see any of the devouring-lust-type (edit: plague-of-madness types, my bad) items mentioned (only came in hopes for that, actually, ah welp, back to painfully irritating assembling my very own Encyclopedia Pathfinderionica... should i start a channel?🤔) - so, hardly ALL there is to know, is it? Also, whatever happened to highly powerful Reach metamagic😂

[@kubas00]

Any chances for the Instinctual Warrior build? :D

[@cRPGBro]

I have one right here for Demon: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKvUmKqen6aHf7s

[@coot33]

i miss baldurs gate meta meta magic sequence contigency etc ... fun times

[@cRPGBro]

Yep, BG2 still has the most fun magic out of any cRPG!

[@sataricon111]

Can we get a good demon slayer build with bows.

[@adamskeans2515]

"engage your enemies with your tanks and they won't move past them"? What game are you playing. Enemies are constantly moving past my tanks to try get at the squishy spell caster in the back.

[@leth5540]

Well, if they're allowed to succeed at that - then you might want to see about some improvements to your AoO package)

[@atdeacon]

lol. I have been using heighten wrong. which means I haven't been using it at all...

[@cRPGBro]

Yep, Heighten is certainly the must have for how versatile it is!

[@jaytea1453]

I am looking forward to cRPG Bro doing Armored Core VI guide videos

[@cRPGBro]

I think I've only ever played some of the PSX ones, but we'll see how it goes!

[@robertmarquez343]

🍺🤕👍

[@notalefty999]

I think you overrate heighten spell. Honestly, the increased DC doesnt help that much. A small increase is small, and a large increase requires using a significantly lower level spell for the spell slot in question, which generally doesnt make sense. It can do wonders for spellbook flexibility, but there is nearly always a better metamagic for any given spell. Persistent will nearly always outclass +2DC for DC spells, and bolster and empower both outclass +1 or 2 DC for damaging spells. Extend is much better for buffs and selective is great for many spells too. Unless you really want to use MUCH higher level spell slots for a given spell, heighten is suboptimal. On the other hand, its a single feat that works with every spell type and can upgrade to any higher level slot, but if I am specialising in a spell, I want the optimal metamagic, and if not, I am not going to waste a slot several levels higher on that spell. Granted, Best Jokes might make hideous laughter specifically competitive to slot at much higher levels, but unless you specialise in this spell, I can think of no other situations where heightening a spell by 5 or 6 spell levels would make any sense. As for extend, having this as a feat on not relying on rods is great. The effect is decent and many buffs benefit simply from being able to cast them with additional slots, though I cannot think if any buffs that I would want to use more than 2 spell levels on. Quick slots are highly finite for casters, switching quick slots between individual casts or battles is tedious and the rods wont allow you to slot a load more hastes, for example. Also, liches and angels in particular will be using extend alot. Avenger's blessing, for example, is something you can easily get to 24 hours in chapter 4 with robe of 7 sins and is single target. Arcane casters also get a lot of useful round per level buffs. I also find selective spell extremely useful for only a single level. Having a tank engage first doesnt always mean you can hit all the enemies and avoid friendly fire, and sometimes you dont control the initial layout of a fight. This happens all the time in Chapter 4 in particular. You often start surrounded or are sufficiently in a sufficiently confined space that you need selective spell to avoid friendly fire and hit all the enemies. Also, persistent cloud or ground effects are dramatically better with selective spell. As for empower and maximise, I think maximise in particular is overbudgeted with its level increase, but these have their uses. Empower is actually solid baseline, particularly with +damage per dice roll effects. If you have bolster, aspect of the brimorak and 3 dragon bloodlines for your hellfire ray, for example, empower is massive, because unlike bolster itself or maximise, it scales with the up to + 10 damage per dice roll you are getting. Also, favoured metamagic makes them a lot better, particularly when considering hellfire ray and chain lightening are some of the best damage spells in the game. With favoured metamagic empower and maximise (and bolster if not using arcane trickster), you can apply all 3 metamagics to both of these spells, and slot variants of them at levels 6, 7, 8 and 9. Metamagic rods have rather limited charges for dedicated blasters, and dont allow for additional casts per day, plus you can still use them on your level 6 slots anyway. The combined effects of the damage increasing metamagics are pretty dramatic. Lets say you are an elemental specialist with crossblooded sorc dip with the demon mythic path. Your chain lightening would go from 27(d6+8), averaging around 310, to 40.5x16 which is 648, more than double. If it were just a generic 20d6 chain lightening, the metamagics would increase it from an average of 70 damage to 240 which is a far larger proportional difference, though without specialisation, investing 3 feats and 3 mythic powers might be a hard sell.