PHY212 - English in England: Beyond RP

[@MagyMagy-do5xt]

❤ Nice to meet you! Thanks, Teacher ⚘ June 02 2024.

[@creamyboi4295]

Thank god my Teacher set this for homework instead of an hour long clip, much praise 🙌🏻

[@cristian3235]

That vocalization 7:17 happend in Brazil with portuguese too

[@vittoriahawksworth8117]

wow that's so interesting... I don't know a word of Portuguese, Brazilian or otherwise, but just listening to various songs I wondered if that was the case!!!

[@giobasta6918]

RP IS PERFECT AND EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS IT!!!!!!!!! SO USE IT,TEACH IT AND GO FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@msclrhd]

Firstly, not everyone speaks RP, or have the characteristics of the RP accent (specifically the TRAP-BATH split, FOOT-STRUT split and the LOT-CLOTH split). Specifically, the LOT-CLOTH split has reversed in most (all?) British English accents, and the other splits are specific to Southern English dialects. For Northern English speakers it is difficult to distinguish FOOT from STRUT (and some use the older GOOSE pronunciation for some FOOT words). Secondly, RP (esp. the older version as used by Queen Elizabeth II in her 1953 coronation and Margaret Thatcher) is considered a Posh and old fashioned accent. Estuary English is a more modern, neutralized (i.e. less Posh) version of RP. The accents in this video are mainly focused on Southern British English. Northern British English, Scottish English, Welsh English and Irish English accents differ from the accents discussed here.

[@revnede]

Damn, why do you feel so strongly about this? No dialect is more correct than the other.

[@azforthlol]

Oh and I'm not saying that the middle class neutral sound isn't highly influenced by London accents because it is indeed high influenced by London sounds, simply not Cockney. It's greatest influences are RP, the Modern London posh, and the type of English spoken in affluent provincial counties like Oxford and Cambridge. But it isn't a synthesis of Cockney and RP, but a much softened version of RP mixed with whatever regional habits the speaker may have accidentally acquired.

[@GodmyX]

Very interesting! Thank you, Sir!

[@vittoriahawksworth8117]

Hello Prof. Handke, at 11.35 you mention that yod is dropped after alveolar lateral e.g. absolute, however I think most people in South East England would still pronounce it in "absolutely".

[@azforthlol]

Yeah the real mistake is most evident in your conclusion, simply the assumption that cockney is desirable/an influencer. Nobody would ever deliberately glottal stop words like Gatwick nor choose the vocalisation of dark L, they do it unthinkingly, it couldn't serve as a reference model to others due its negative association. People do not copy what is undesirable, EE is only prevalent around London but isn't spreading and replacing regional dialects unlike the middle class neutral sound.

[@azforthlol]

The mistake Rosewarne makes is to think that a "London" status will carry a fashionable cultural-capital outside of it's "upper class" context, and thus people will most desire a cockney/RP blend. The truth is that London carries very little cultural capital outside of it's upper class context, unless one is trying to gain urban "street cred". The modern (not Victorian) cockney accent is barely less derided than any working class accent such as Scouse or Brummie.

[@azforthlol]

I think the middle-class bland is the product of young people nowadays being very conscious of social background, there are worried about appearing too posh but unless they are in contact with a working class background they typically would not wish too sound regional either. A soft spoken middle class voice is pretty inoffensive and won't label you as a rich kid to your peers but neither appear stupid to those unaccustomed to regional dialects.

[@azforthlol]

I wouldn't say these two are comparable actually since "Modern London Posh" is a regional dialect centered around a certain class of Londoner (upper class/upper middle class) while "Middle class bland" is more like a tendency for accents to converge until a universally accepted middle ground is found. Many people speak middle-class-bland but occasionally betray themselves with mild regionalism mixed in, you can even speak middle class bland rhotically if you're from the north.

[@caritoonelove]

Thank you very much! nice and clear explanation :)

[@mrtyles]

I detect a slight german accent from the lecturer. amirite?

[@azforthlol]

The alternative replacement for RP is "Modern London posh" which is not really spoken anywhere besides London. It seems to resemble RP more than "middle-class-bland" but is nothing like RP in many ways since an RP speaker would pronounce "there" for example with the proper ä sound, with Modern London Posh this sounds like "thar", these people often say "yah" instead of yeah as in "yah, we were going to go down the strand earliar."

[@CrazyLeiFeng]

Which public figure uses this variation?

[@SantiSerge]

So, for one who's not a native English speaker, but is trying to minimize the accent effects of his mother tongue....What kind of accent would be preferrable? (According to social connotations)

[@VCYT]

The esturary accent mentioned here works everywhere, however differing English accents like geordie sound wonderful abroad. The RP accent probably open doors in jobs, tho some can think such folk are snobs, which is bad.

[@joesmith8875]

An accent that is easily understood by the greatest amount of people

[@paulgilson2347]

beat boot or water, you never pronounce the t. I'm a strong estuary speaker. And we use 'ouse and bruva etc.....I think there's a big difference between certain estuary speakers. A big difference I always remembered from classic cockney and essex (estuary) was he'd say 'orf' instead of 'off'.

[@azforthlol]

People like Jamie Oliver speak Estuary and while his accent would be more or less universally understood, it's not what's replacing RP in England. The contenders for replacing RP are twofold the most common I call "Middle-class bland" which I would say the average student nowadays currently speaks at university, this accent is so common it leads to the phenomena where it's very difficult to distinguish where the speaker grew up because they have this bland, well-spoken but not overly posh voice.

[@MissFedejoeLondon]

Is EE a dialect or just an accent? Please answer me

[@kikidee23]

It’s an accent.

[@JahidMasud]

I love EE (Not Everything Everywhere, but Estuary English)

[@azforthlol]

Thus nobody would actively choose EE nor perceive it as a modern replacement RP, the only people who do speak it are the actual Londoners who can do no other. Having a cockney lilt is not desirable in the slightest unless you're around cockneys. Furthermore there are even worse associations around "mockneys" - fake cockneys, so faking the accident isn't a wise choice never mind an undesirable one.

[@bitTorrenter]

These are not different languages, but accents and dialects.

[@oer-vlc]

What do you mean by "these"?

[@kikidee23]

Different accents, not dialect. It’s the same language.

[@azforthlol]

Both the converging middle class "sound", probably not really an accent in itself, and the modern posh London accent are both watered down evolutions of RP, one that has strongly attempted to retain its own affluent character but not sound over the top and absurd to modern ears, the other has tried to be a close to neutral as possible and sound neither posh nor working class as to never mark the speaker as either.

[@jasonhazlett758]

Estuary is more of the whole of England to, not just London, Essex, Kent and Surrey - but particularly youngsters tend to speak Estuary in all of southern England and that Somerset accent is dieing out... Soon I recon the whole of England and maybe even the UK we start becoming more influenced by Estuary...

[@tuggaboy]

I don't like cockney x'D I prefer RP! x'D

[@azforthlol]

This woman shows accent quite well /watch?v=_QHhp3X-yWg

[@kjjosker]

The estuary accent makes the speaker come across as uneducated.