Picking the Best HOTAS for Elite Dangerous (HOTAS/HOSAS/Joystick/Throttle for space/flight sims)

[@Exigeous]

UPDATE: In the video I *incorrectly* state the CH Pro Throttle doesn't have an analog axis for thrusters - if you look at the slide it is correct in that it does have this axis. Also I stated in the slide that it has twist - another mistake. Fuck me, I just screwed that one all to hell, didn't I? Apologies for the mistakes everyone!

[@vampyr2936]

Even acknowledging them is leaps beyond what a lot of guys would do

[@pearcomputers]

m'eh :) 3 years on, still a great run-down. . New to Horizons (believe that!) I'm starting to learn that the DBX is everything I dreamed a Cobra 3 would be :D and that a Stick, if not full Hotas, is probably essential.

[@Mr._POV_]

My HOTASS mouse and keyboard is unmatchable.

[@florbfnarb7099]

The best way to pronounce HOTAS is, of course, "Hot ass."

[@D3nchanter]

i do this quite a bit XD

[@JNM11787]

and here I am saying "Hoe Toss"

[@nebohtes]

I use dual sticks and pedals, but I really enjoyed the video. I appreciate the clean, focused narration and willingness to just share information.

[@lizon0202]

I've been using the T-flight as my entry into simulator-style gaming, and it has seriously changed my experience with Elite Dangerous. Having played it since launch with keyboard, when I made the switch half a year ago I can say the difference is night and day. I am no Ace pilot, but using a hotas makes me feel like one. I have no experience with more expensive options, but I can only imagine they further enhance the range of options available. I still have some options mapped to the keyboard and use Voiceattack to make up gaps in convenient access. I strongly recommend anyone curious about HOTAS control for either E:D or games like Star Wars: Squadrons to pick one of these up. It is convenient, mostly plug-and-play and well-supported, and at the price point you really can't go wrong.

[@Datan0de]

I got the T.16000M specifically for playing Elite in VR and it's nearly perfect. Solid build, smooth analog, and enough controls that I can do everything I need to do in game by touch alone (obviously critical in VR) with extra controls left over. I have relatively small hands so I do have to reach a bit for the lower castle on the throttle, but that's set to wingman controls so I almost never need to use it. The buttons on the base of the joystick took a bit of practice to learn to hit without being able to see, but the pips in the buttons make identifying them by touch easy. To me, the paddles on the throttle are fantastic. I have them set for hyperspace/supercruise, scrolling through menu tabs, and SRV turret toggle/handbrake. It's easy to reach when I need it and completely out of the way when I don't. The Warthog is undeniably a fantastic setup with a great feel and built like a tank, but I found it too limited, particularly the lack of twist. Maybe outside of VR it's an acceptable option, but for me it was a no-go.

[@majo2626]

same here, bought it for ED in VR, its great, i use the paddles for precise throttle controll when docking

[@PaulGuy]

FWIW, the stick in Elite: Dangerous is apparently modeled on the X-52.

[@zkmarkov2984]

Yeah I noticed that. I really wanted to get it but they don't make them anymore and second hand sellers bump up the price a lot :/

[@Mango_Puffin]

@@zkmarkov2984 Pro X52 still in production, afaik. Seeing local stores are all waiting new units coming next month. Or did you mean specifically the grey X52 model?

[@MrJustinUSCM]

I bought an X-52 many years ago for use with FSX, I never liked it because it felt very loose compared to my Logitech 3D pro, but I never refunded it. I started playing like 2 months ago and I realized the controls in Elite look very similar to it. I hadn't used it in years, so I had to take it down from the attic. I have since ditched my Xbox controller for the X-52 and I'm glad it did. I probably wouldn't have started using a HOTAS if it wasn't modeled after the X-52, it just feels cool knowing I'm using basically the same controls as my CMDR in Elite.

[@Dragonblaster1]

@@zkmarkov2984 Logitech took over Saitek. I believe they still manufacture the X52.

[@able724]

I've had my CH setup since 2009 with no issues. I simply love my CH Products it. I returned the Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS (predecessor to the Warthog) because it was simply way to stiff to fly with for me. With the Fighter stick, Pro Throttle, Pro Peddles, and Multi Function Panel all play nice together in one ecosystem and operate under the CH-Products Control software making it very easy to use once you take the time to program it. The power of that programing system is awesome. Additionally, the CH Products setup does have a programmable mode switch on the Throttle that can allow you to switch between 3 different modes, and you can set up a button to act as a kind of "shift key" so that each button can be assigned 2 functions in each mode. This means that each button or hat direction can have a total of 6 different functions. This doesn't count the 25 to 50 buttons that you can have on a single MFP in the CH ecosystem and the ecosystem will allow you to have multiple MFP's, Fighter Stick's, Throttles, etc. Honestly, I'm not sure what the limit of the software is.

[@EagleMountainDK]

able724 Could not agree more. Great products. My 4 ch products are from 2005 and they work like a charm in elite and every other sim I have thrown at them. What one can do with programming is mind blowing...but you don’t have to.

[@thomaslamont3237]

Yup, ditto to all the above able724! Had my Fighterstick/Pro-throttle/Pro-pedals for a long time now. Tough, no nonsense hardware with an incredibly flexible programming software GUI. I have yet to find a function that I could not replicate with the powerful, yet simple, scripting language. What I liked best is that the hardware was versatile enough and, at the same time, generic enough that I could use it for flying modern aircraft and WWII warbirds. Sadly CH Products has been somewhat quiet for a while now ... I have not seen any new products aimed at the PC gaming crowd for several years.

[@Kissamiess]

From what I've read about them over the years, they like making the stick but don't really like to bother with marketing and all that. These flight simulator controls are small fry for them/their parent company. Making industrial joysticks is where the real money comes from. I have a CH HOTAS and pedals and I love it. Very functional and durable. The software is very powerful too even if it looks like it was designed in the 90s. Hey, if it works, why bother messing with it.

[@KhalainBear]

I have the thrustmaster warthog and it's great, however for Elite I would be extremely comfortable using the X52 pro as elites ship controls are a carbon copy of it, I've used the X52 pro in elite before and it's a great setup

[@DiggitySlice]

Visually yes, but practically the X52 has far fewer buttons than functions in E:D

[@tychusmechanicus]

I agree completely on the best budget option being the T.Flight Hotas. I used it for years, desipite the lack of a full 6 analog axis. However, I'd say I'd move the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS above the X52/X52Pro (I may be biased since I had an x52 that just died on me. From what I've seen here it is generally these Saitek joysticks that are regularly commented on having poor build quality compared to their price tags.) The Thrustmaster FCS wins out with better functions for a lower price for me. Just a few notes on the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS: The joy does have less than ideal buttons but I managed to get away from that by moving some less important - non combat - functions to the buttons on the base. The throttle acts up a bit indeed on the slide but if you adjust the tension screw to loosen it it becomes smooth. I'd love a 50% range detent but to get that I'd have to downgrade for the T.Flight Hotas or go way up in the price range for the Virpil products. The paddle is big but I use ot for SRV turning only - keeping the index finger ministick purely for thrusters. This way I can independently drive my SRV fully from the throttle while I aim the turret with my mouse. (Using a joystick for aiming like that is just super awkward for my brain). Overall I'd say the FCS is a better option than the X52/X52pro as these are more expensive, can have their electronics just die on the inside and still only have 5 analog axis since the ministick on most versions is aggressively only for moving the mouse pointer. Not sure if later generations changed that.

[@Exigeous]

FCM?

[@tychusmechanicus]

I accidentally posted my reply when I wanted a line break - hence the edit. Obviously I only have experience with the lower end of the spectrum you have tried. I should add that the weight is indeed a problem with the FCS and I am looking to sort that out but other than what I mentioned I am satisfied with the set up, more so than I was with my older series X52. Maybe in the long run I'll justify getting a Virpil set up.

[@LokiTDD]

still using one of these i.imgur.com/GY8tf8M.jpg (x45) because i despise twist stick yaw and it has two rotary throttles

[@Nightdare]

From what I've heard, older X-52s are still going strong (or at least last a lot longer), it appears the Madcatz produced versions are the ones that started their unreliable reputation As for Logitech upgrading production, it seems they overhauled the X-56 to better standards, but since they didn't change the color during this change (I believe this change in internals occurred during the black/grey livery release. the black/blue version is definitely what was left of the Madcatz production, so stay away from those), the risk is that you are buying a Madcatz legacy product

[@OidhcheMhath]

Logitech itself has been shit for build quality for years now, so no surprise there. I love their products design-wise, but they never last very long.

[@Кухнедесантник]

Awesome! Now we need a guide how to build a flight chair. For Immersion!

[@Exigeous]

Have a look at my Cockpit tour and guide for the details on my setup.

[@buxton5165]

For some reason I read "immersion" with a Latvian accent.

[@tspencer227]

Look up Obutto.

[@stevenacton359]

as do we all - all hail the Yamiks

[@Exigeous]

Yeah, damn Yamiks, I can't think it without hearing him too!

[@lexlagger8568]

CH products, great great build quality despite the appearance. The throttle has 3 buttons perfectly placed for pip management, and the index finger hat is a nice reset for them. Side buttons are great for thrusters, and landing thrusters as well as assist toggle and FSD activation. the analog stick on the throttle is very useful for thrust and for tuning in the exploration tool set. The actual stick it's self has the same design the the higher priced, flashier models have so far as button placement. The mode switch doesn't have to be a mode switch. That said, you can have 3 different complete bindings if you wish and toggle through them. I just use one and Voice controls. In VR, you can't see what your controls look like and if the old school cosmetics of the CH is the only thing stopping anyone I would highly suggest looking past that. They are accurate, and very reliable. I have over 1k hours and counting on mine (500+ in elite) and they are rock solid. You also get a throttle dial on the joystick with a centering indent and a trim adjuster on the joy stick as well for your tilt and roll. I use the ped set as well, so if a twist stick is a must, maybe just check out the throttle. For pip button placement alone it's worth it heh.

[@zarants]

I freaking loved my T1600M, it was perfect for elite dangerous in my opinion. But... there seems to be a problem with the the twist axis. I did recalibrate it and it fixed the problem for about a week. But it died today. So I did some research and it seems to be a very common problem with the T1600M sadly. So don't get it, save your money for something better i'd say. It's such a shame tho, Thurstmaster seems to have alot of problem with quality control lately.

[@MrScruffyBeard]

I've had the twist problem with mine, but I was able to fix it by opening the handle as much as I could without removing the trigger. Sprayed it with canned air to be safe and put in back together. I've had to do it a couple times but I haven't had any more issues so far

[@MidgetRacer8192]

I know this is an old comment, but since it comes up with the Top Comments now, it is worth mentioning there are a couple very cheap fixes for the Z-axis issue.... by replacing the stock sensor with a Hall sensor, either with or without using 3D printed parts. Also, if you were to get the Hotas slider upgrades too, it totally transforms the whole setup to feel more high-end & makes it much better value for the total money.

[@jchoneandonly]

So now we need to list get rich quick schemes for getting these. Lol

[@natural997]

My xbox budget is sweating

[@hpfan1816]

How about deep core mining. Oh wait this is real life.

[@TheTechnoPilot]

Road to Riches keeps on failing no matter the distance I put when I try starting from my neighbourhood! 😔🤣

[@wesleythoman9873]

A made a million from kill contracts and bounties in a few hours last night. It's tedious but it pays pretty good the more you grind and rank up.

[@jchoneandonly]

@@wesleythoman9873 OK how do I buy real world stuff using elite dangerous credits?

[@Cbogaski567]

I’ve got the dual t 16 setup and I have to say I am absolutely in love with them. They’re my babies.

[@kylesofia9021]

I would like to point out that the X-56 now has an updated version that is of a much higher build quality. This new version can be distinguished by the black and grey styling instead of the blue. Id recommend testing the new stick yourself as i love the new X56. Logitech really did a great job fixing the saitek screw-up with button quallity improvements and general sturdyness and feel upgrades

[@branjosnow6244]

I can confirm the plastic they use is exactly the same, and weak AF. A simple move forward the other day and by right side throttle just fell off. Tip to anyone with an X56, if you don't use both throttles, tape them together. The force puts far too much stress on the right stick because of that silly little lock, it adds a slight twist that weakens the crappy plastic they use.

[@DiggitySlice]

@@branjosnow6244 OR you could move both at the same time and not try to yank the throttle from the end

[@branjosnow6244]

@@DiggitySlice It's a design flaw dude, the catching pin to lock them together, is off center by design, it only goes into the left stick a few mm's, so it pushes the right stick with a slight twist motion as it does it. I've always had it on the mildest friction and been careful with it. But after the grease settles, it adds friction for the first use again. And you can feel the slight twist, as they both do not lock tightly enough to negate the separate movement. It needs to go right into the center of the the right stick not to cause stress on the plastic. It's been used everyday for about 7 months though. Although the backside buttons of the throttle flicker the connection after about a few weeks, the swivel buttons are terrible, and finding the central notch is impossible during game play. The slider switch refuses to bind to anything in Elite so I've never used it Stick is rock solid though, hasn't skipped a beat. Bad hat switch placement but can't complain about it's build quality. I thought it would be the first to go, not the throttle. The X56 looks good, feels good, but is not good. One would assume "1.5mm plastic" would not be used as the throttle supports? A small metal bar would have protected it better. Granted I was mega pissed when I made that comment, it had just broken when I had sat down for a game of Elite with my cousin on the other side of the planet. I lifted the ship, retracted gear and inched forward towards the mailslot, and the right throtlle just fell off into my hand lol. Been playing the night before and it was fine. I later fixed it, and how I know the small twist killed it? Without any glue I positioned it back onto the clean brake, and then duct taped that sucker to the left throttle along the join line of the two throttles, front and back. The pressure was now uniform, and it moves both sliders without issue. So if you don't really ever use both throttles as I didn't, it would add to the lifespan if you prevented any movement at all between the throttles, by just a small strip of strong tape. The whole Logitech RMA process is a frustrating mess, so I'm going to just have to eat the $250 I payed for it. But I'm eyeing up a Warthog setup, not a lot of complaints about those, but they are pricey AF. I'd give the X56 a decent 6/10 before it broke, but after seeing how it's made, I couldn't honestly recommend it to anyone.

[@cacarey01]

I use the CH Products hotas and yaw pedal. Fantastic gear. If you don't need flashy looking design then you cannot go wrong with CH Products.

[@centermassgamer323]

Watching this to learn about hotas before squadrons comes out because I’ve never used one before. Thanks for the content.

[@ohata0]

word of warning, vkb does not use the same connection types as the warthog or virpil stick. you can get an adapter i think, but i'm not sure. if you're looking at a cheaper desktop stick, vkb just released a stick called the nxt, which is about $150 or so. seems to be well received on r/hotas. also, be careful about inflated prices. demand is high and supply is low because of covid, and also flight simulator just came out.

[@talex001]

You must have gotten a bad T16000m (RARE) - I have tried most too and it is excellent, you have 3 easy to reach buttons that can be used as shift so there is nothing you cannot map, even in VR and I don't even need to use any of the buttons on the stick base. I have a setup in an arcade room and have had dozens of people try out the sticks and almost all prefer the T16000m. The Throttle however needs to have a special non-binding grease to really shine (Nyogel 767A) and then it's smooth as butter. The paddles I just use to tab menu's so never an issue and the build quality I found on par or better than all other other plastic hotas's. The Wathog does not even have yaw so I never include that, it's nice but incomplete without major $$ and so out of the price range of others it's not even close to apples to apples. I found the Saitek / Logitech x series ok but often button placement was awkward, In fact I have a new x56 Rhino(New Gray/Black Logitech version even) collecting dust that is likely heading to ebay, for as cool as it is with the lights, switches and all the buttons it just is not as comfortable to me as the T16000M even though twice the price, I have average to maybe slightly above average size hands and the buttons are not where I feel they should be and this was pretty common among guests who have tried it. For the $112 U,S, Amazon has these for you cannot go wrong - I would suggest anyone looking try one of them, worst that can happen is you send it back, best that can happen - like me you get a better more comfortable setup and save $$ too - The build quality is fine on both throttle and stick but the grease will set you back about $25 and literally makes it so much better I do consider it almost mandatory bringing it's price to $137 but it's worth it. Of course as Exigeous mentions, your mileage may vary but quite opposite of my findings.

[@Exigeous]

First I'm curious if you've owned/had every one of these to test for a few weeks like I did? Of course your opinion and nope, there was nothing 'wrong' with the 16000 I had, I just didn't care for it at all. The button layout on the stick is terrible (12 buttons on the base that are impossible to use if you have your left hand on the throttle) with only a single hat and the button layout on the throttle, save for the analog stick for thrusters was really uncomfortable for me. While I didn't grease the throttle, so fair enough, I couldn't get past how cheap and thin the base and plastics were for it. Again all taste - but realize when I compare these to things like the Warthog they are all HOTAS and I made it very clear you need pedals with the Warthog (which I'd run regardless as I WANT pedals). As I said it's all subjective - you'll find someone that loves one and hates another for every one - but as I said in the video for my money I'd get the X52 (specifically the Pro) every single time over the 16000M.

[@talex001]

fair enough - I have had them all except the new logitech x56 for quite some time for obvious reasons - I have an "Arcade" room I put together a few years back complete with virtual pinball, mame machines and 2 VR racing / flight cabinets so my stuff gets tested by friends and family pretty often... I agree with you about the buttons on the base of the 16000m being awkward but I never use them as when possible I use a "shift" function if the game allows it which elite does in spades, so you have the 2 buttons on the throttle and the "click" of the analog on the throttle which can easily be used as "shift keys" so for example the hat on the stick can perform 16 different actions alone depending on which button you are holding on the throttle but I don't even need to get that extreme, I have the push on the analog I use along with the buttons on the stick and the 2x 4 ways on the throttle and I am not even really near capacity of that. The one you mention the x52 I did like about the same feel wise but after 3 of them having QC issues I gave up on it and like you I did not want to knock any so I did not mention that one.

[@jimmydasquid9951]

CMDR Exigeous Had T16000M FCS for months and absolutely LOVE it. And I treat it pretty rough during combat. No complaints. Just my 2 cents worth...

[@Tobascodagama]

I like the FCS, too, but it's way too light for desk use as shipped. It's nice that the slider runs metal-on-metal, but the extremely lightweight base makes the whole thing feel cheap.

[@Exigeous]

Jimmy DaSquid not saying you're wrong at all, that's great you're loving it. But I would be curious what you'd think had you been able to fly them all for a few weeks like I did - that's where I put the T16000M last. The great thing is none of them are crap, these are just my opinions and by definition they are subjective. I did try to be as objective as possible however.

[@StanfieldMacCue]

Like many, I started on the T.Flight and highly recommend it as a starter fit. When I moved up, I went with the Saitek x55 Rhino (the x56 is only different by replacing the thumb button with another ministick), and I love this stick. Yes, it's plastic, but I've been 'sploding 'Condas in it since 2015 and it's still going strong. The higher end rigs were deal-breakers for me due to lack of twist-to-yaw, and with the shear amount of controls, I really feel like it's the Warthog option for people who refuse pedals. It even has corner bolt holes so I was able to screw it all down onto a wood base to make it a single lap unit (solving for one of the only 2 things I missed from the T.Flight, the other being a center detent on the throttle; I no longer throttle negative to reverse, now I need a forward/reverse switch mapped. Less than ideal, but I've adjusted)

[@BCSchmerker]

*I found some aircraft types only partially supported among current products.* As of November 2018 nobody manufactures a counterpart of the Dunlop roll/pitch column used by the Grumman Iron Works (F9F, F11F, A2F, F14F) in addition to British aircraft manufactures - the column is pivoted at the base for pitch, midway up for roll. Nor does anybody manufacture a satisfactory collective-pitch arm for helicopter apps, although the VIRPIL® MongoosT-50® southpaw version would be a satisfactory collective grip. The Logitech HOTAS stick grips (applicable to the in-house G940 Flight System as well as the MadCatz-developed X52/PRO and X56) are panned by real-life pilots for switch placement inconsistent with any plane or helo outside of experimental builds. VIRPIL now supports the THRUSTMASTER® HOTAS WARTHOG® stick grip on the MongoosT-50 base/gimbal unit. For cutting-edge Russian machinery, the ideal sim stick grip isn't yet in production, but it would pack two analog ministicks (both with push select), two four-way and two five-way switches, two folding two-stage triggers of different lengths and swing arcs (àu OKB Kamova), and five pushbuttons in specific locations.

[@RespawningJesus]

Also worth mentioning is that the t16000 also has a bundle that gives you pedals for a pretty decent price, so the t16000 is very nice for those first getting into the game.

[@DiggitySlice]

The t16000 has ridiculously few buttons it, and reaching for the base buttons is a pain

[@stofsk]

Very weird you didn't like the T16000m. I went from an X-56 that I got for ~$350AUD and having the torsion spring in the stick snapping just over a year later. When I opened it up and had a look the torsion spring metal looked cheap as shit. This is in addition to a few other issues: namely, the stick being made for overly big hands, and a few times the calibration went wonky. I got a T16000m and for half the price it felt better, played better, and I haven't had any real problems with it.

[@azog23]

I had an X52pro but it was beginning to fall apart (lots of squeaks and groans) so I bought a CH products stick and throttle. It's rock solid and after thousands of hours it feels about the same as when I bought it. I'd recommend CH products over and X52 any day.

[@Exigeous]

Not at all saying your wrong but realize the price is almost double for the CH stuff so that's why I recommend the X52 when factoring in everything.

[@azog23]

Yeah, they are pricey. I managed to find a sweet deal on ebay where they were basically half price. Otherwise I would have had a hard time justifying the cost. You're right that it looks a bit old fashioned too. Also, the throttle is really designed for people with large hands. But the build quality is amazing and the included software is pretty useful too.

[@Mr_Spock512]

Saitek stuff is junk and money thrown down the drain ... save your money and buy a good product once (ie: CH Products).

[@aztgspecops6738]

Actually picked up the t16000m after the new years and find it so much more enjoyable and a great setup for a beginner like myself :)

[@Sevorast]

Literally the only person I've ever heard/seen who shit on the 16000m. I actually prefer it to all other HOTAS which I have tried, meaning all of them from this video except the Virpil or VKBSim products. Warthog would beat it if it had twist yaw, as I can't stand pedals, and of course Warthog throttle is king. The Saitek products are pure garbage in my experience, though I'm told the quality has improved since Logitech took them over, mine were/are from the bad old days though.

[@mrsaizo0000]

Once a long time ago I owned CH products, but can't find them anymore here in Sweden. I had a throttle, stick and rudder pedals. This was the age before USB was invented, and we had to use gameports on the soundcard or PC.. And then a couple of years later, got my first Thrustmaster stick. The TopGun. Damn, that was a great stick! I even modified my own T1600m. Whilst doing it, I started to understand more and more about how it works. Most sticks use potentiometers to "measure" where you are. This stick actually use a magnet and a sensor. And it is so good, the throttle is a bit plastic.. But yes. It IS plastic. However, getting an extra X & Y mini stick is great.. Added an extra button and LED lights. Trying to get the throttle to "follow" the led lights, ranging from white, orange, red and green. Yeah the Saitek is a no-go. I have friends and read a lot of negative stuff about it. One is a someone who bought the Pro version and actually it started to malfunction within 2 weeks. He changed it 3 times total. After that he did as the rest, got something else.. Seems that Logi/Sai had some issues with the spring system. But the VIRPIL.. Something I really do want to have!

[@fruitgums]

My first ever joystick was a Saitek, way back in 93ish and was USB1.0 or something, beat the crap out of all the opposition at that time. Such a shame that poor management led them down the road to ruins. And I am no fan of Logitech right now as my G920 wheel has not worked since I got it 5 weeks ago and Logi support lost, yes LOST 4 weeks of emails and correspondence, piss poor imo

[@jellowiggler]

I really loved my 16000M. If it had an extra hat and a thumb slide or hat, and a pinky trigger it would be perfect. 16000M Pro? Thrustmaster is so close to a perfect cheapish type controller. I sent it back for a x56 Logitech update model. Hopefully that one is OK!

[@leynadIX]

So do I, first negative impression on 16000, I'm in love, it only needs at least 3 more buttons in joystick to be perfect

[@michaelmeredith2285]

@@leynadIX Do you use the "twist" function and if so how is it holding up? Apparently the longevity of this feature is chronically poor on the 16000. Curious as to your experience so far?

[@esoel]

Great video as usual, although I strongly disagree on your evaluation of the thustmaster versus the x52. I ordered the x52 and returned it due to the poor quality of hardware and software, I tested the thrustmaster at frontier expo and found the build quality excellent for the price, and the precision is way better than the chproducts I have. I would have probably bought the thrustmaster, if it had been out when I made my purchase. I'm now saving for some awesome high end setup, warthog,virpil... something...

[@Tobascodagama]

This is what I've heard repeatedly about the Saiteks. It sounds like a real crapshoot, where you don't know what you're going to get when you open the box.

[@The_Burrito]

This is actually a fairly recent development. Saiteks used to be very high quality until Mad Catz bought them out. Then their quality control hit rock bottom. Now we can only hope Logitech's acquisition can rectify this... but there's still lots of Mad Catz Saitek gear out in the wild.

[@Exigeous]

Well like I said - some are going to say you're crazy and some will say I'm crazy, I could only go off what I felt having them each for a few weeks. To my hands the quality difference between the X52 and T16000M wasn't even close, didn't even feel in the same product category - and remember as a Warthog fan I love Thrustmaster (and have one of their wheel bases and multiple wheels too). For me I also really disliked the button placement on the FCS, the buttons on the stick base are unusable during flight (have to take your hand off to use them) and the layout and slider throttle to my hands were pretty terrible. The good thing is none of them are shit, it's a good time to be a HOTAS customer for sure (and thanks for the polite strong disagreement :D)

[@AlexysRM]

@@Exigeous - You really aren't qualified to make a video like this if you think picking the best HOTAS just means which one feels the best in your hands. There's so much more to it than that and your recommendations are embarrassing.

[@gabzsy4924]

@@Exigeous I mean, I have to disqualify you on this one. I think you've been led by the touch and feeling and forgot that the t1600m has the same sensor as the Warthog, a top of the line hotas by the way, and the most important part, it has an analog joystick on the thruster that is basically a MUST have for any space sim that uses thrusters, the x52 dosn't have one. I do agree that the x52 looks and probably feels more premium, I personally would love to exchange my t1600m for an x52, but truth be told I won't because it's more expensive and it delivers less, plus the whole quality control problems and nightmare stories we hear about them. So yeah, I feel that this review lacked some objectivity and impartiality.

[@pierscardon3300]

I have to got to add my support to the TM 16000. I did quite a lot of research on the HOTAS available and took the opportunity to experience friends HOTAs setups. However, having purchased the TM 16000 I really enjoy it and get great immersive game experience.

[@DeadEyeJ]

You should update by mentioning that Logitech redesigned the X56 with much better internals that what Saitek offered. Also, you might confuse people by including the "Blue" colored X56 (which are still sold on Amazon), since those are the older Saitek models and god awful. The newer "Gray" colored sticks are the ones made by Logitech.

[@networkgeekstuff9090]

Super late comment, but I will recommend T.16000M simply due to the contact less HAL sensors for the base. These will outlast ANY mechanical resistance based sensors on other sticks simply due to the fact that they are contact less magnetic sensors. Traditional resistance based sensors will simply shred their surface over time, forcing more and more calibration cycles on you until they die on loss of contact when a gap develops on the resistance rails. And I also say this as owner of Thrustmeter Warthog that also uses these, but if I were on budget I would go for the T.16000M simply for the above reason.

[@buggerall]

The HAL's are ok but the rest of the joystick in my case was thrashed after the first battle in Elite after using the twist in anger. I'm now buying the Warthog as it is made of steel and has HAL's as well on the latest version. All this tech is pretty useless when the stick is dangling over to one side as mine is now. TBF I talking about the original "green" version. Don't know if the Orange one is any better but since no updates were mentioned about the internals I doubt it is.

[@salmasrac3351]

Keyboard+Mouse doesn't ruin my immersions because if I had a spaceship in real life I'd have it modified for Keyboard+Mouse controls

[@Exigeous]

That's pretty funny - but somehow I doubt that. ;-)

[@Xangam]

Would love to see you using a mouse while enduring the g-forces during a turn =D

[@salmasrac3351]

Easy-peasey with my robot arm

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I I had a ship I would actually ouse a combined setup. HOTAS for the flight controls, and M/KB for all the navigational stuff like menues, oh, and lots of stuff with touch.

[@WarPigz0]

@@salmasrac3351 touchè

[@keriethomas1619]

My first purchase for a HOTAS system took a little while. I got a second hand X52 throttle and a new Logitech 3D Pro stick for about the same price as a new Thrustmaster T Flight. Main reasons for this is that the X52 throttle has the USB on it (usually the stick has it on a HOTAS) which means that I can get any stick I feel comfortable with and I find the 3D Pro is an excellent choice for the price, really solid, well built and comfortable. Only bought it to "get going" and have been so impressed with it I haven't bothered upgrading it in 2 years. Just thought it was worth mentioning as it is possible to mix and match if the USB is on the throttle part.

[@thotarojoestar3045]

Soooo guess I'll just join the airforce or the navyyy?

[@DerekMoore82]

I fly with an Xbox One controller and use my Logitech G27 pedals as yaw rudders and my H-Shifter for throttle positions. Had a wheel lying around anyways, figure I might as well bind some mappings to it. Works great!

[@BadVoidShip]

I had a T16000M (just the stick) and brought a X-52 (non-pro) only to be disappointed. The X-52 has a horrible stick. The buttons are fine but the actual stick has a horrible deadzone/accuracy issues and feels terrible to control. There are some after market mods that you can do with magnets that apparently help though (and maybe they have fixed it somewhat in newer versions). The T16000M is a decent quality on the actual stick. The thumb buttons seemed fine to me although the base buttons require you to remove a had so they suck. What I ended up doing was using the X-52 throttle with the T16000M stick which works well although there isn't quite enough buttons for ED. With combo buttons it works well and I don't have to use the base buttons. Remember you can use the HAT's as buttons. Still the X-52 throttle is ok but still far from perfect. I had to open it up and physically remove the annoying haptic 'dent' at the halfway mark. Also the throttle has 3 sliders, 1 is useful for zoom/FSS tuning in ED but there is no use for the other 2 in ED. It also has an annoying thumb mouse which isn't much use either (you might be able to turn it into another HAT in software though, unfortunately last time I checked it seem the current version of the software might have been missing the feature. The thumb button placement isn't great either. The hat switch is great though If you are looking at the X-52 series, defiantly get the X-52 PRO not the basic X-52 since apparently it has a much better stick. Opinion seems to be the X-56 is worse because of the silly pinky trigger and general quality but I haven't tried it. As for the higher end stuff, personally I couldn't live without twist on the stick, I don't want pedals taking space under my desk and like to put my legs up, but I can see the appeal for a more 'realistic' or flightsim cockpit setup.

[@D3nchanter]

have an old x55, and its LITTERED with problems. the software is highly dated, the drivers have issues recognizing both throttle and stick at once..... and lets get to the fun part. saitek/madcatz are now owned by logitech. there will be no support or profile releases for anything new in the foreseeable future even though i purchased it just a year or two earlier. they will happily drain you of your money, come out with something new, then stop supporting your product. if you think this is isolated? think again. i've owned an array of logitech over the years and they are pleased that their products fail after warranty. mouse, 3 years, kb 2yrs, speakers 2.5 yrs, and the list goes on to now include an x55 that is unusable. tldr? don't buy anything logitech makes, you're going to regret it.

[@DEFkon001]

Minor corrections for the CH Fighter Stick. ( Beyond the currently stated corrections.) I mostly use it for X-plane these days. Buttons = 4 Primary fire, Secondary fire, Pinky button, and index finger button --( which normally acts as the mode switch) Knobs = 3 There are 3 rotary knobs at the base, one is a lower friction axis which acts as a throttle similar to the T1600, the other two are high friction firmware trim modifiers with centering detents. ( allows you to over ride where the stick reports it's center - good for dialing in a climb or turn and walking away. ) Twist = NONE. It's a designed to work with rudder peddles. Oddities and others items: The stick size is a bit larger than you might think based on the pictures and the self that you rest your hands on sits higher than every other stick I've owned. For longer flights I've found it more comfortable to put it on a second shorter table and use some folded blankets to act as an arm rest so my arm rests in line with the stick. Another thing to get use to is that the main X and Y axsis are actually two independent rockers mounted on top of one another. It makes for a very unique feel that can be very off putting at first, but does allow for a higher degree of precision when wanting to separate yaw from pitch. Final Verdict. It's an awesome stick and it's best feature is one that's really hard to sell folks on. Durability. I think I paid about 100.00 USD for mine back in 2001, and it's still rock solid. I figure that means I paid about 6.00 dollars a year for it so far. No issues, no maintenance. It's the Glock or Ak of the flight stick world. That said for ED, and other space combat sims.... the lack of twist just feels wrong for space combat.

[@ComdrStew]

WARTHOG! done. Actually CH Products are very good for a cheaper stick. Yes they look cheap and plastic but I will tell you I got my CH Pro Pedals for Christmas of 1997 with the new connector called a USB and yep they still work.

[@zackeryhardy1388]

they actually gave me a free replacement potentiometer for my pedals even though they were 3 years past warranty a thrustmaster took 3 months and a lawsuit threat to fix a issue that emerged 3 months after purchase ( buttons went out due to a missoldered wire) amyway best company in my mind

[@Error_404_Account_Deleted]

Another member of the creeping yaw club on the T16000M checking in. Both stick Z and throttle Z (paddles) Thanks Thrustmaster.

[@JordanOwnby]

Also a member, only in the stick z- axis though, throttle is fine. I upgraded to the warthog way sooner than I would have because of it.

[@TerrorFront85]

I'm offended that you don't pronounce it "hot-ass Thrust Master"

[@ilejovcevski79]

That twist for yaw option is probably a good feature for space sims, but for aviation sims (especially the more "hard" variety), that's just a useless option and a liability, adding just one more thing that can brake. A large rocker with a hefty give is a must at a very least (and what gives the TWCS my personal thumbs up here) and full rudder pedals (if you can afford them and have the place to put them) are of course the preferred way to go. I'm still to find a stick that completely suits my needs. I run with the CH Fighterstick for now (the styling isn't an issue for me, as i have no stomach for futuristic designs anyway), mostly because it has more then enough HATs and buttons in a functional enough layout and a reputation for longevity. The Warthog would be a solid investment, but for me personally is an overkill. I get nothing out of the outer metal construction (same electronics as the T16000), the layout is a replica of an A-10 CAS plane (i plane i don't fly in sims, nor do i plan to) and the price is slightly prohibitive for a product that doesn't suit my needs. Had there been an F-14, F-15 or F-18 based stick of similar quality, i would have probably opted for it. My throttle choice is (as mentioned before) the TWCS (mainly for the reasons mentioned above), but also for the bang for buck ratio. Ideally, i would want a separable double throttle solution, but none exist right now, that feature a rocker rudder control at the same time and i have no room (nor will) to get full rudder pedals in near future. So this combination provides me with a nice mid range HOTAS for DCS and FSX. Again, for space sims, priorities are probably quite different.

[@lukelouisackerman]

I've been flying the X-56 for a while, and I love it. May be I got lucky but I have 0 QC issues. The 2 extra analog sticks make thrust super precise and landing very easy, and the plethora of buttons make VR flight a breeze

[@ZaneKata]

O7, CMDR Exegious. I was curious if there was any chance you might be able to do an updated comparison for HOTASes. Thank you. -CMDR Zane Kata (Edit: spelling)

[@tomaszsowik1381]

After some many hours with warthog you know, that it does not have any issues with potentiometers as it uses HALL effect instead of classic sensor and it remains very precise. Sadly you did not mentioned that so criticised T16000 also uses this technology and after year or two this stick will be superior over rest which will wobble a lot. Though it is worth mentioning that T16000 uses classic potentiometer for yaw axis and this one becomes loose just after few months of heavy usage. But still, you can't know it after 2 weeks of testing all of sets.

[@Exigeous]

You're totally right - I just couldn't get into that level of detail for every stick as the video already went super long, especially for my content.

[@kiiroMADE]

@@Exigeous 11 minutes, super long? Wow! The attention span of today is down in hell.

[@buggerall]

Disagree. The t16000 on my desk got sloppy after the first serious fight and is almost useless for ED right now unless I set a huge dead zone. Will never get near to them anymore.

[@drcstudios]

I use the legendary Microsoft Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 and CH Products Pro Throttle. The Sidewinder does have twist and the forcefeedback does work to provide motorized resistance. It has to be plugged into a wall power socket on top of usb, but it truly is fantastic.

[@chocodiledundee]

I must admit i think your a little overly harsh on the t16000m, while i agree it's a HOTAS for those on a budget here in the UK at least it represents the best value for money over here as there is a £50 price difference at retail between this and the x52 HOTAS which is significant for us on a budget and compared to the t flight HOTAS is has many more options for configuration. I still feel the t16000M is the best value for money for the lower end of the price range

[@Exigeous]

And at that price it certainly makes it a better deal but I still would choose the X52 every time as for a PC gamer that's not a huge difference for something you're going to use for many hundreds or even thousands of hours. I'm sure many are very happy with the T16000M but those also have never used all the sticks in the review which is where my opinion comes from.

[@AlexysRM]

@@Exigeous - Then you're a fool because the X52 is garbage inside and no where near as accurate as the T16000m.

[@TheTaxCollectorsWoW]

@@Exigeous can u stop riding the x52's nuts. i own one and had had to go out and buy a t16000m because the x52 is so inaccurate it was almost unusable.

[@GottHoldNicetomeet]

I like the roundup of your joysticks. But i here some criticisms. You left out t.16k strong points which are: -his superior sensor giving you a 12 bit resolution with a hall sensor. You may not notice that in arcade space games like star citizen or Elite but in simulators like IL2 or DCS you will definitely notice a way higher precision. A precission the Saitek/logitech sticks despite their way higher price point can't match as they only have a 10 bit resolution and that with potentios. -Some people and especially real pilots sometimes prefer that throttle over the pivot style throttle as that is closer to how most military jets have their throttle assembled. One person that uses that throttle instead of the Hog throttle is Matt Wagner from DCS for instance. He uses the Hog stick and that throttle. And you could ve mentioned weak points of the Hog: -The ball of the hug gets greased up and its movement is not smooth anymore after some months. You either need to take your stick every few months apart and smear it up and maybe after work it (there is enough tutorials on youtube for that). Because very minor movements are not possible as you need to overcome the grease resistence and when overcoming that you are overshooting in terms of inputs. Don't get me wrong a great stick, but that greasing thing is a real pain in the ass in AAR or formation flying. But that was ultimately the reason why i switched to a virpil base. And you could ve pointed out which of these sticks have dual stage triggers as that is for DCS simmers quite important. Oh and the T-50 is prosumebly a replica of a Su-50 stick so just like the Hog is a replica. Oh and my sticks thus far i have collected experience with -Logitech 3d pro (Owned) -Thrustmaster T.Flight hotas (friend owned and tried it, it has an awful resolution and sensor) -Saitek X52 (Owned - pretty great deal back then you could get them for 50€ used off ebay but breaks very easily) -Saitek X65F (Own - pretty great stick for certain applications, but definitely not for all) -A merge of a Thrustmaster Cougar and Microsoft force feedback2 self build there are some yt videos of people who did a similar thing! Worth a watch (and still owning) -Virpil T-50 Best overall system if price doesnt matter.

[@Kurkess]

I've been close to buying the Warthog several times. The lack of the twist-function held me back. I think I'm gonna settle with the X56.

[@goofball1_134]

By twist do you mean turning the ship left/right on the Z axis right? If so it only has lateral movement? I'm just curious I'm not too familiar with this stuff but I am interested

[@Kurkess]

Yes. The warthog only has lateral movement. No twist.

[@goofball1_134]

@@Kurkess I see, after seeing a few yt videos and some more research, and being left handed I'm likely just gonna settle for something low-mid-range with twist and learn to fly right handed :/

[@Boba_Brett13]

@@goofball1_134 being a lefty myself, you'll love the x52

[@goofball1_134]

@@Boba_Brett13 yeah I ended up going duel stick with x52 and tm1600. The throttle for the x52 while nice, I couldn't get a good feeling for using a button swap to make the throttle go in reverse. I would have to add peddles or go hosas. and since hosas was cheaper I went for it and I love it!

[@originalkk882]

As someone who has had a number of Saitek (now logitech) HOTAS, and had each one lose precision in the stick after a short while, I finally spent the money and went with CH Fighterstick, with Pro Throttle and Pedals. 10 years later, they still work perfectly. They aren't pretty, and certainly not cheap, but they work well, and are extremely good quality. Although there are only a limited number of buttons, there are plenty of hat switches, which can be mapped as separate buttons depending on position pushed using the supplied control software.

[@klarkolofsson]

CH Pro throttle has analog input, the very good thumb stick for thrusters.

[@Exigeous]

Yeah, damn it - sorry I misspoke there - I updated the description to correct for my mistake.

[@MissVerstand3n]

I own CH products and love them. however since the sticks have no twist you would need pedals for full control. ch stuff is expensive but to me it is worth it. Also there is a used market where you can save a few bucks.

[@Kissamiess]

Not the most expensive thing you can get, but definitely not entry level either. They are supposed to be very durable so you don't have to buy replacements in a very long while and if you buy used, it's more likely to be in decent condition as well.

[@Mr_Spock512]

I have owned a full CH Products setup (Flightsim Yoke, Fighterstick, Pro Throttle & Pro Pedals) for a few years now ... I really love their products and highly recommend them. They work really well and are made to last. PS: I used to have a Saitek X52 Pro ... urgh! ... I got so fed up with it's lack of precision, I threw it out the window one day in a fit of rage. I now stay away from ANYTHING with the name Saitek on it ... they only build cheap junk.

[@ltsjoe2015]

I completely agree on the CH Products. Their being made to last was why I purchased them. In my opinion, they're probably the best bang for your buck due to their longevity. I have the Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals for almost 4 years now. They've survived 4 moves as well as a stint in storage and they are still working well and as precise as the day I got them. I definitely recommend getting the pedals for YAW input. They also add 2 more axis's that can be used on top of YAW. Point being, if you want something to last and are fairly durable, they are your best bet from my experience so far. They may be plastic, but they are definitely a solid design and will last a long time.

[@Matthew-.-]

By far the best comparison video I could find. Picked up the T.Flight HOTAS 4 for a marked up $100 (thanks Flight Sim and Squadrons). I actually didn't choose it for the lowest price, I chose it because you made a good point, it's the only one designed for lap use. Since I'll be playing in my room scale VR setup that lacks a desk or office chair it will probably be the best bet when playing from the couch.

[@aelfswith]

I have the T16000 Hotas and like it for the most part. I don't find the paddles on the throttle to be odd, however, I think they should have angled the side with the thumb buttons on it to make them easier to reach. That said, I have not tried others. This one was the right price purchase was made on that and reviews vs the x56

[@Tobascodagama]

That one thumb button on the very bottom is a little awkward to reach, yeah.

[@abrotherinchrist]

You, sir, are FAR more committed than I. The Warthog does look pretty cool though. I've been barely happy with my Xbox controller I got for free from a friend, but I really like that I can sit back and play with little effort. My 2 gripes are that the thumb sticks are hard to get used to and the boost is inconveniently placed and not easily moved, being the B button, which is tied to the landing gear, but now that I have Game Glass I unbound it. No more accidentally boosting in stations when I'm trying to land lazily. BTW, I just got my Cutter and boy is that thing interesting to land.

[@Alrold]

You forget to mention that Ch fighterstik also need pedal's

[@iansouthern9957]

I bought the X55 Rhino when ED was in Beta. Still have it now with over 1500hrs use. Still works w/o any issues and I love it. Essentially it's down to what you feel you can afford and feel comfortable with. If we all loved the same things life would be boring!

[@FeronGER]

man the music is so load in the back! sry good review tho

[@governmentghost01]

Agreed, the music was way too loud

[@RocketDragon-mu6wy]

a good medium price setup is a vkb gladiator nxt with a twcs throttle

[@telfer3388]

Not even a mention about analog joystick On CH Throtlle ?

[@00ddub]

Tel Fer he also got it wrong about the buttons. The three buttons are mode buttons that can alternately just be used as single function buttons.

[@Akkarinization]

Exactly that. I have the CH hotas too and the joystick on the throttle is amazing. Was one of the reasons I bought it. Unfortunately the control software does not work for me under Windows 10 anymore. Makros and mode switches were awesome in the software. Edit ok got it to work. Just open the windows store when the buttons are greyed out

[@aaronolson1237]

Someone asked me what your channel was like (big FPS player) and I said imagine a space sim level cap. Very thorough testing and analytical. Great content too!

[@Exigeous]

I suppose that works for me - I used to be a pretty big FPS player too back in the Counter Strike 1.6 and Quake III days. I play a bit now (Overwatch, Battlefield 1/V) but really only love sim games - hence my setup.

[@aaronolson1237]

Makes sense. I play shooters if I want to be competitive (rarely) but if I’m stressed out and want to unwind I always go to elite dangerous.

[@obserwator100]

Huge mistake about Virpil ! - You are showing constelation delta grip and telling us that it dosnt have twist ! Not true

[@einarabelc5]

This video is bad. From the format to the misleading info.

[@nekvoime3059]

I know it's 1 year later, but need to correct something. Thrustmaster T.16000M Joystick actually has 8-way hat, not 4-way. Also the Throttle has one 8-way hat(the top one on the side) and two 4-way hats, not three 4-way hats. Another thing is the Throttle Paddles at the front, they're not just left and right buttons, it has actual Axis function, so you can even map your 'roll' axis there if you want. Thank you CMDR Exigeous for your much entertaining and informative content! Fly safe cmdrs!

[@GardFiring]

Wow! we completely disagree 😂 Had the x52. flimsy and uncomfortable. Had the x56. flimsy, uncomfortable and super hard throttle. Loved the t.flight! Cheap, comfortable and functional. Doesn’t require a reverse button. Now I’m on the t.16000m fcs purely for the comfort of the stick. Guess we got different hands, as no “saitek” product ever fit me :)

[@Exigeous]

Yep, as I said it's a very subjective thing to try to review - and to be clear my main issues with the T16000M were the throttle (flimsy, terrible button layout, hated the slide mechanism) and the placement of the buttons on the base of the stick, which are basically unusable. I was a fan of the T.Flight for the money for sure.

[@GardFiring]

Ye, the T16000m is basically down to comfort for me :) The setup is far from great. the x56 was disappointing tho. As for everything that relates to ergonomics, it’s down preference. You can recommend a e.g. a mouse for tech, value and functions, but it doesn’t matter if it don’t fit your hand :) thanks for great content!

[@Exigeous]

You're most welcome, thanks for the kind words and debate. I do totally agree on the X56 and comfort/ergonomics - I liked how many inputs it had, especially the throttle, but found it possibly the last comfortable and the second cheapest feeling. No question to my hands the X52 was the most comfortable with the Warthog being a very very close second.

[@davidpritchard7802]

The t16000m was originally built as a stand alone ambidextrous stick, in which case the symetrical button layout makes a lot of sense, the throttle, i like it, but the one button that i use for reverse is hard to reach, the paddles i find seem to really suit navigating the in ship panels but serve no other purpose in elite.

[@majo2626]

@@davidpritchard7802 i use the paddles to thrust forward and backward when im docking or dogfighting, its analogue so its great for small trotle inputs

[@cmdrtheghostofet5310]

I 100% agree with your choice of the Warthog and VKBSim Mk4 pedals. Sure they're expensive. Sure I had to fabricate my own center detent for the throttle. Sure I had to build my own stick extension to fly helicopters in DCS, but if I had to do it all over again, I'd do exactly the same thing. Both kits are absolutely worth every penny.

[@lyianx]

Surprising to hear a recommendation of the X52 (which has a history of poor quality control) over the T16000m (which has a history of high accuracy for the price).

[@clarion-z2929]

X52 is my favourite cause of the layout and design... Quality is bad tho. Especially on potentiometers. Using electrical cleaner helps, but it shouldn't be like that.

[@ronaldwatson1951]

@@clarion-z2929 I'm in the market, so it's your experience to go with thrustmaster verses x 52 ?

[@clarion-z2929]

@@ronaldwatson1951 personally, x52 is my choice. Even with the poor build quality. It's more about your preference. :) There is no right stick for everyone

[@ronaldwatson1951]

@@clarion-z2929 thanks for your response and candor.

[@scoobylew24]

I love my Thrustmaster Warthog. Only hotas I've ever used. I started Elite Dangerous with TrackIR5, so I was very familiar with controls locations before I started in the Oculus Rift. In combination with VoiceAttack, ... No wonder I'm triple Elite.

[@MR.MACH1NE]

I owned the X55 and X56 and loved them, but i could not recommend due to the poor build quality, in the space of over a 14 months I had to return the products on 3 occasions due to dead switches or axis issues. I gave up with this model and and bought the Warthog, other than lack of z axis twist I can find no faults with it. I'm yet to purchase rudders and rely on a button to change the yaw and roll function

[@Exigeous]

Wow, really, that surprises me given how much combat you do - I'm telling ya man get on it and get yourself some real pedals. I promise you that you'll be glad you did as I couldn't imagine not having them. If you're on a budget the older Thrustmasters are okay, those new ones look great but for $500 are they kidding? For less you can get the MFG Crosswinds or the "Slaw Device" pedals which both rock. I love my T.Rudders but would probably get one of the others if I was buying now.

[@noamc8417]

First I had some ghost button issues with my old X52. Shortly followed by some broken cables inside the throttle. To change the cables was not an option, because the inside of the throttle is full of grease and once you start with one cable you have to do them all, which would be a nightmare. So, I bought the X56 with the hope that Logitech improved the quality. Now, I have what they call a tennis arm because of the very resistant z-axis of the stick. Besides, the throttle of the X56 is also much harder to slide, much propable because Logitech increased the resistance in order to prevent the cables to be bend to fast. I like the design, the buttons are all at the right places and I was hoping that the X56 will turn the trick. But I cannot really recommend it to anyone and might have to grasp the nettle and buy rudders.

[@Nightdare]

@@noamc8417 "To change the cables was not an option, because the inside of the throttle is full of grease *and once you start with one cable you have to do them all, which would be a nightmare* " ...I did on my X-55 throttle which started failing after about 250 hours of use, and I had no intention to do it again after I found another axis failing again after 3 months Luckily Virpil came out with their new throttle at that time, so had a good excuse to upgrade my HOTAS, now only to replace my combat rudders, where one of the brakepedal pots already failed after never using it

[@cathalbyrne844]

My story is almost the same. Got an x56, returned it 3 weeks later as the twist axis wouldn't return to center, 2 buttons on the stick and 3 on the throttle never worked. Terrible build quality. Got the warthog instead. Been using it 2 years without any issues.

[@jaysonjota]

Excelent video as usual. I have the t flight hotas since 2015 and it is an excellent product even after a year on my car trunk getting hit by things and moving around as I drive it still works today. But since 2018 I upgraded to the x52 pro version which is just a beast. Highly recommend both products

[@bardbollocks]

I have had a CH set for what must be going on 16+ years.

[@a10miletooth]

Exactly, and in 16 more they'll still be working. I think I got mine in 2009, there aren't even wear marks from close to daily usage. It's a shame to think someone would pass on them because they don't have gaudy racing stripes and other flashy non-sense, or because "plastic". They make all their gaming peripherals using the same industrial materials that go into the various controls they build for heavy machinery operation. If I recall, I believe CH will replace them if they ever fail, or maybe I'm thinking about how they would convert a set to usb for free if you sent it to them. Though, I do wish there were some toggle switches built in, lol.

[@ChozoSR388]

@@a10miletooth Only reason I passed on the CH set was that they didn't have enough controls for my liking. For me, the less I have to use the keyboard, the more immersed I am in the game.

[@a10miletooth]

@@ChozoSR388 you can set them up using the software where every button can have up to 3 functions. That's 45 buttons each not including the 8-way hats. What could you be doing that requires more than that?! In games like E:D where a combination key press can be mapped it isn't necessary to use the software at all. Were you not aware of the software or just prefer having more physical things to put your fingers on? Totally understandable if that's the case, I've considered getting a button box (or two) for that very reason.

[@Akkarinization]

Yes every hat on the Ch system is basically 4 buttons. The amount of buttons is ridiculous and you can control elite dangerous completely in vr without keyboard or voice commands.

[@Highonwater3X]

Is it the same model that's shown in the video? I'm looking at my first hotas to get ready for SW Squadrons, Star Citizen, and getting back into ED, and it seems CH comes highly recommended but I want to make sure I get the right one.

[@SavageVR]

This is absolutely fantastic. I am that guy that loved space sims back in the days of Wing Commander in DOS. I hadn't touched another in a long time. Now I am back with Elite Dangerous VR and I picked up the T.Flight because dangit, in VR a keyboard is not easy to use and I hate "gamepad" flight. It is definitely excellent as a starter as I wasn't sure of what to get or what I would like. Having this, I now know what I want in a flight stick and your video cleared up a TON of questions I had about them. Happy with my buy but will be upgrading at some point and this video let me know where to go. Excellent!

[@surject]

Wing Commander 8> You know about Star Citizen?

[@SavageVR]

@@surject I do. I had an account for the past few years but never got into it. When I first started there was little to do and I didn't have a HOTAS. So I had removed the game. But for me, Elite in VR is what is the killer app for me. I don't know if Star Citizen supports VR but VR is what made me buy Elite Dangerous.

[@surject]

@@SavageVR Fair enough. SC is getting better and better (again) but still a long way to go ;) There's no official VR support yet but it works. Same with Track IR ...the initial support has been dropped years ago because stuff changes all the time. Upcoming patch will bring the new flight model, looking forward to it because I didnt' have much fun in combat either (with hotas) since 2.6.

[@kvarley87]

god damn those ch sticks look pretty much the same as the one my dad had when I was a kid like 20 years ago

[@fabiolean]

They're a very 'if it ain't broke' company. They know what they're good at and they never stray outside that comfort zone. For better or worse.

[@a10miletooth]

I bet it still works and is as accurate as it was fresh out of the box, too.

[@4k4st3r2]

I used to have a Thrustmaster Hotas X for starters, but after that died, I've selected the CH Combatstick matched with the Thrustmaster TWCS, just because I fell in love with the paddle in front of the throttle, which is IMHO the best yaw control without having to bother with pedals...

[@amandasteven1400]

this excellent review helped me choose! Tnx and kudo's to CMDR Exi.... thought the background music(?) was waaaay too loud and somewhat annoying however

[@ToddColstrom]

Another solid budget option is finding a good condition x45 (predecessor to the x52) HOTAS on eBay. Just make sure you are getting a low mileage set. Use the pictures of the unit and take a close look at the grips. Grips that show a lot of wear (and it will show if it's a decent quality picture) mean a higher mileage set that should be avoided. I've been flying the x45 almost the entire time I've played Elite and I'm a huge fan. Plus, the x45 comes from a time before Saitek had massive build quality issues (which I hear has been dealt with since Logitech acquired them), so they are generally well put together. You can usually find good condition sets for $35-50. If you're patient, you can even find a new-in-box set, though that'll typically up the price another $10-20.

[@bystandah9626]

Agreed. I'm using a x45 for ED and I was lucky enough to find a set on eBay for about $20-25 and hardly ever used (as far as I can tell, anyway). Only downside was I spent the better part of 2.5 hours configuring every single button from scratch due to no preset keybinds, but it's cool. I got my set-up the way I like it and the x45 is a definite improvement over the xbox controller I was using. The only other drawback I can think of with the x45 is that it won't work with windows10 (at least, that's what i googled, anyway). No issue for myself since I'm still using win7

[@ToddColstrom]

@@bystandah9626 actually it works just fine for me in Windows 10. Plugged it in and it was instantly recognized. Only thing that doesn't work is the Saitek configuration software, but I doubt that works in Win 7 either.

[@bystandah9626]

You're right about the software not working that great in Win7, lol. Mine closes up instantly if I even try to use any of the options. Good thing Joystick Gremlin works nicely with adjusting curves in my stick. But it's good to know the x45 works with Win10.

[@Jin-Ro]

Back in my day it was a ZX Spectrum and A,S,D,X,O,P. Hardcore.

[@garretthogg84]

The Thrustmaster T16000M FCS hotas is decent for the money, would not recommend for people with small hands. If you go that route, make sure you know how to adjust the tension on the stick and throttle, get some grease for the throttle (it's basically dry out of the box) and mount both pieces. If you don't mount them, I found you'll chase them all over your setup. I will be going the Warthog route in the future.

[@aweekes49]

Thank you for the guide . I do have a question..... all the research I did when choosing a Hotas there were some issues about reliability. In two of your recommendations were cited for having poor reliability and quality control issues. Have you experience any issues with any of the joysticks that you’ve used ?

[@Exigeous]

Remember somewhere you'll read someone telling you every one of these are total pieces of shit and to avoid, etc. Personally I've only owned the Warthog (and a 52 many many years back) so I could only go on what they felt like in my hands for the 2 weeks or so I had them. None of them are junk at all and while each one could fail in days, weeks, months or years that's very hard for me to say - I can only say what they felt like in my hands which is where my comments come from.

[@Will-W]

I purchased the X56 Logitec about a year ago. I returned it to amazon. Not only are the thumb dials on the throttle cheap and "flexy" but the whole thing was stiff. Even when the tension was turned all the way down you could not quickly throttle up and down. There are guides on how to take it apart and remove grease and stuff, but yeah, no thanks on the voiding of a warranty on a $200(ish) dollar setup. The stick was great. Lots of buttons to bind. But the yaw (twist) was horrible and there was no adjusting it. I can see some people liking it, because it's the "Top of the line" Logitec E-peen. But I personally don't recommend it unless you're willing to rip the thing apart out of the box and cut springs and remove tension disks and lubricate it with something better than the gunk they use.

[@mentalwig420]

I got an x52 used on facebook for 80 bucks and then I got elite dangerous and voice attack. In vr this is the game I have dreamed about since I was a kid .

[@Accurize2]

Jason D I totally agree. With voice attack and VR E:D is amazing.

[@Michael-Eklund]

My first HOTAS was a T.Flight HOTAS X, @ $50 it's really good. But a problem i had with a previous purchase (just the stick) is that after a while it starts wobbling when idle, i actually had to turn it in order to fly straight. Then i bought a Logitech X52 Pro, a mid-range HOTAS and it's really good. Since i play ED in VR, A HOTAS is a must. $300 for an X56 Rhino is out of the question, and many reviewers say it's not all that good.

[@Mr_Spock512]

I totally disagree ... the X52 is pure junk, it will quit on you within a year and drive you crazy with it's lack of precision. Seriously, save your money a bit longer and buy a better quality product ... stay away from ANYTHING with the name Saitek on it, you can thank me later. PS: It's CH Products for me ... perfect in terms of price/quality and really up there in terms of precision and durability.

[@grizzworld]

I have used my CH Stick, Throttle and pedals for about 8 years now, and this setup still works as smooth and reliable as the first day i plugged them in. Computers, screen, mouse and keyboards have come and gone but CH prevails over time and use.

[@yodacasper]

They got bought my logitech over a year ago

[@xyloeye]

I agree. I bought an X52 a few months ago and have never been able to get it to work. When I plug it in, the mouse pointer rises to the top of the screen and stays there. On the few occasions that the mouse behaved, the stick would suddenly reverse it's pitch programming - makes flying a helicopter pretty tough. It may be a software problem. I can't tell. But out the door it goes - pure junk. Now it's hard to know what to buy. $500 is a lot for a game controller.

[@Phoenix135tube]

Have had my Saitek X52 Pro for at least five years. Purchased two; one for me and one for a housemate, as he didn't have money to burn. He had a switch problem within two weeks (although I never checked whether he was trying to unsuccessfully reassign the "i" button, which I also have never been able to use for anything). Mine still works perfectly.

[@MongooseTacticool]

I have seen on Gumtree the CH products fighterstick for really low price, is it worth it?

[@cobaltblue1975]

Thanks for the video CMDR. Funny you post this not even an entire day after I was perusing Amazon and considering the x52. I've been flying with keyboard and mouse since premium beta, and don't consider myself too bad a pilot. I wouldn't want to get into a PvP scuffle with a HOTAS using commander but its been enjoyable. Recently I got my paws on a cheap Dell Visor (WMR) headset and discovered the torture of trying use the galaxy map with a mouse and KB in VR. Its a nightmarish cavalcade of misery and grief. You know its bad when you suddenly feel a sense of great accomplishment from successfully plotting a course. It will definitely be a learning curve for me when I finally decide to pull the trigger (pun intended) on buying one. I tried a friends HOTAS setup, and because I was so use to KB and Mouse; hilarity ensued. I'm glad he put me in a Sidewinder for the test drive. His words...."Go home. You're drunk" lmao. Thanks again. This has helped a ton. As tempting as it may be, I think I may start out with your first recommendation as a cheap entry for two reasons, 1. I may end up hating it in the long run (old habits die hard after all), and 2. Elite is the only flight sim I have, and with the F*ck up Fairy putting in over time at Frontier; I'm not entirely sure my interest will be peaked for much longer.

[@Taphosthewarlock]

Game sound in this was insanely loud

[@Accurize2]

Taphosthewarlock It sounded fine for me.

[@florbfnarb7099]

Also, while obviously it's a bit old and not being produced anymore, the old Saitek X45 can be found on eBay in used and sometimes new-in-box condition. I used one for years, and when the rocker switch on the throttle that's used for rudder control finally broke, I picked one up on eBay to replace it, as well as one for my nephew. Definitely worth the price and much cheaper than most newer HOTASses.

[@fabiolean]

"Ambidextrious"

[@terpdx]

2021 update comment: I started playing E:D with the T.1600M. I actually liked the FCS quite a bit...until the yaw function broke. This is apparently a very common occurrence with the T.1600M due to its cheap potentiometer and poor design placement where the internal wires interfere with the movement. Once the great 2020-early 2021 joystick price boom ended, I decided to upgrade to a VKB Gladiator NXT, and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I can't image a better FCS for the ~$120-150 USD price range. I still use the TWCS throttle pending the release of the VKB TECS unit, and the combination works quite well despite the TWCS needing frequent lubrication. TL;DR - if your flight stick budget is

[@ForgeofAule]

How long would you say your T.1600M lasted?

[@terpdx]

@@ForgeofAule I would say ~11 months or so until I started having the yaw problems. I managed to take it apart and fix it, but that was a pain the butt, and there's no guarantee it won't happen again. It's sitting in the corner as my backup stick for now. The saddest part is that the stick actually works great until it breaks. If Thrustmaster would just make a minor tweak to the way those wires wrap around the pot, it would be the no-brainer budget stick for me.

[@LTLoudpack7100]

It's H.O.T.A.S. not H.O.T.I.S

[@JasonRetribution]

Had my HOTAS X since 2014 for Elite and to this day still works wonderfully! Thinking about upgrading though.

[@1001011100101001]

I have a traditional hotas with rudder pedals (an old x52 with even older thrustmaster pedals). I have thousands of hours using them for Falcon BMS flight sim. Arguably one of the best combat Sims out there. Works great for that! For elite dangerous, I use a combination of g600 mouse, razor tarterus v2, trackir, and voiceattack. It's 100% hands off. With yaw on mouse x, pitch on mouse y, and roll and throttle on keys on the Tartarus, aiming is much, much, easier than with stick, throttle, and pedals. Not even in the same universe. The mouse has 12 buttons and a ring finger button that allows for 24 total. I really only use the 6 buttons close to the front of the mouse, but 12 (using the ring finger toggle) is plenty.

[@thehelgetus7888]

That is an excellent overview. I went from X52 (which I still have) to the Rhino (returned it as the main fire button stopped working) and eventually to the Warthog plus Saitec rudder pedals. What my concern was with these HOTAS was the mounting issues. How to fix it to the desk? With the X52 and Rhino (this was a must as the throttle was very stiff) I had to screw it on a wooden board. The bord I clamped to the desk. That takes a little time for setup ervery time I played Elite. So after reimbursing the Rhino I made the decision to purchase the Warthog. Expensive but I love it since. No need to screw it down. Just wipe the rubber pads on the bottum with a wet cloth. This way the stick to the desk in particular during a fight! With the foot pedals this is a perfect setup. As you rightly point out in your video! NEvertheless I should mention that the red paint is gone at the main trigger button.

[@rawkfistgaming]

I've been running the T-Flight Hotas for a couple months now, and despite its limitations compared to other sticks, it's been a joy to fly with, and I'm perfectly happy with it until I can afford a big upgrade.

[@NorthWolfe]

Couldn't agree more... Virpil, for those that can, stay clear of anything from Thrust (including the Warthog Stick, which I have had to replace twice). For those on a budget, the Logitec is a fabulous choice and never "betrayed" me (it replaced the TM while their "stellar" customer service took their time to replaced the two sticks that broke). Cheers.

[@Secu90210]

I actually have used the T16000M FCS and Throttle for the last two years and personally I can agree that the throttle is a little odd to use as it feels oversized but overall I couldn't be happier with mine. I may get some lithium grease to put on the support rails of my throttle to try and make it move smoother though.

[@Kissamiess]

I used to play FPS games with stick in left hand for movement and mouse in right for aiming. This was very punishing for the stick and I went through a Saitek Cyborg and many Logitech Wingmen over the years. Even learned to take a Logitech stick apart and swish the potentiometers in rubbing alcohol. Some years ago I got tired of Logitechs breaking and bought a T.16000M stick. That was much better quality than my earlier sticks and also handled the abuse better. The centering did get a little loose after 2 years, but my previous Logitechs would have been just broken at that point. Around that time I got into the sims more. First Star Citizen, but later also Elite: Dangerous and flight sims. The throttle slider on the T16kM started to feel inadequate so I started to look into a throttle. The T16kM throttle would have been an obvious choice, but it didn't exist yet. I researched it a bit and ended up with the CH Products throttle because it has that analog thumbstick. With that I had enough axes for analog 6 DoF. Later I spotted CH pedals on sale and got those too. Even later I spotted a CH Fighterstick on sale and got that too. So now I've had the whole set for 2 years. CH Products has a reputation of durability so I hope they will last. My personal recommendation would be to get T.16000M if on a budget. I have no personal experience on the throttle, but the stick is good. The T.Flight HOTAS is bad from what I've heard. For more expensive stuff the CH set is a good option if the aesthetics don't bother you. I suppose the Warthog is good too, but I hear it has a plastic gimbal that wears out. I'm biased against Logitech/Saitek due to my past experiences. The high-end Russian Virpil and VKBSim stuff seem good, but I have zero experience on those so I can't say yay or nay. VKB started by working on Defender Cobra M5, which I hear is a fairly good stick especially if you can get your hands on the elusive Rev.A.

[@thavionhawkmkii4509]

Just got the T16000M FCS Flight Pack with the Stick, Throttle and Pedals to play Ace Combat 7 and haven't found a fault after adjusting the throttle tension. At time of buying it the full kit was on sale for under $180 US matching the Pro X56 Rhino and given the games I play don't benefit from differential thrust, but gain from having dedicated rudder pedals, it felt like a no brainier to me. All that said I can honestly say I've never used any of the other HOTAS's in this line up. To this point I've been mostly using a PS4 controller and before that an Xbox 360 controller for flight sims. The only Stick I've used before for any amount of time was an old Logitech Sidewinder Xtream 3D playing Freelancer.

[@ColdWelder]

X52 Pilot here. No regrets at all, it's a joy to fly with. It's also very easy to modify to your liking.

[@MarianoLorde]

Impressive. Really well done review. Complete. I'm getting "back" into Flight sims and wanted a good review of the various platforms available out there. I especially appreciate you mentioning that the Thrustmaster Warthog and some of the others have no twist stick for rudder control, making rudder pedals a necessary purchase. Outstanding point. I could get the rudder pedals as well, but am not sure how well I will adapt to the "new world" of virtual cockpits and controls, so over-investing is a consideration for me. Thank you for putting this video together. Bravo Zulu, CMDR.

[@curtishickerson2646]

I really love my T16000M HOTAS, but you are absolutely correct that the main detractor is the throttle quality. I really dislike that it doesn’t have a detent in the center making it a pain to go to zero throttle easily

[@billwiley7216]

There are 3rd party plates/bearings available that allow multiple magnetic detents in your choice of locations plus use bearing upgrades to make the throttle buttery smooth through its travel range at fairly reasonable prices and installation is not all that difficult either. Actually makes the TWCS throttle one of the best options available at a somewhat budget price range.

[@ughtentide]

Don't forget the VKB Gladiator Mk.II. It comes in both Pro ($249) and non-pro ($129) versions. The non-pro is an excellent stick for Elite, because it has twist, solid VKB quality, is affordable, and has a TON of buttons on the base, plus it comes with a small throttle on the base as well. You could (theoretically) get away with just using that for one-stick Elite... but I wouldn't recommend it. It's a bit sparse on on-stick buttons, but beggars can't be choosers with a VKB stick at that price. It feels good to fly with, and there's not a lot of crap that gets in my way. I've had that stick paired with the CH Throttle for about a year now. The CH Throttle is "okay," but if I don't give it plenty of deadzone room for the sloppy encoders, it can lose calibration fast. Also, 8 bit encoders? 1996 called, they want their encoders back. It's really not very accurate if you figure in the deadzone overhead. I just got in the Virpil Mongoos T-50 Throttle to replace it, and it's a beast. 16-bit encoders on every axis for starters. It feels much less toy-like, and more sim-like. (Still not quite real, but a lot closer.) The controls are just buttery smooth, with adjustable detents, and you can even change the "tightness" of the throttle itself. One downside is catching it on the Virpil shop. It's like trying to catch a unicorn with chopsticks. They go up and sell out in about 3-4 hours. Also, with shipping to the US, it was a little over $400. Shipping alone was $70. OUCH. Also, Elite does NOT support more than 32 buttons per controller, so now I have to set up some virtual controllers just to get all of the buttons on this thing configured. And FDev admits that it's an issue with the game, and it doesn't look like they plan to fix it... just as they increase the bindings in the latest beta to 268. Yay. I'd love to see you do a vjoy or similar tutorial for cramming a bunch of HOTAS buttons into Elite.

[@WanderfalkeAT]

Honestly, I had every Stick there is except that Virpil Stuff. I can tell you a Brief History of my Choices: At the Beginning I played IL-2 Forgotten Battles online and competitive. The Stick I swore my virtual Life on was the Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback 1. I also had the X-52´but preferred to use the Throttle of the X-52 together with the MS Stick. Which in my View was the best Combination. I also bought the Saitek Rudders and TM F-16 Stick/Throttle. Later even the Warthog Stick and Throttle. As well as the Rhino. TM Metall Sticks are cool but the Potentiometers are not made for strong Fingers. Mine broke within a Week. I still have them in Storage. I always thought for a Twist Stick the X-52 had not enough grip to use the Twist while working the Hatswitches and the upper Buttons - So I made my own Handrest and screwed it on. After my MS SideWinder FF finally broke the X-52 with that Handrest Mod is my goto for every damn Space/Flightsim and even if I tried different more expensive Stuff the X-52 is my Fallback and stays the best Option. I broke at least 5 of those Sticks and some even came broken in the Box, but if you got a perfect one and be carefull with him - You have a Option for many Years. Some do not like the massive movement the stick has but for a big Hand like mine it allows me very precise Inputs. I never liked those Pedals - They are too slow in movements that allow you getting out or preventing a stall in a WW-2 Fighter in IL-2! It helped me immensly to become a real Pro in the Focke Wulf. That plane has very strong Rudders and so it allows some amazing Rudderwork in Maneuvers where you normally Stall and Crash with other Planes. Elite is very much configured for the X-52, especcially if you don't use the Software for it! I believe that they used that Stick alot in the production of that Sim.

[@jdl2327]

I am looking for a new HOTAS to upgrade from my dual T.16000 sticks. I was debating warthog, virpil and x52, but I think I will choose x52 because it is a lot cheaper, it has some cool input options, it looks like a gutamaya HOTAS, the other options don’t have a rotation axis, and it has a safety cover which the virpil throttle sadly got rid of in the new model. I love safety covers for some reason. It just gives me a lot more immersion for having to make sure I want to press what is under the cover (I don’t know if there is a self destruct or reboot and repair keybind, but silent running could go under the cover for example). So I will probably get x52, do you agree?

[@WanderfalkeAT]

@@jdl2327 Remember NOT to install the Software that is included. You do not need it and it also is a waste of time because all Sims now know the X-52 and you can better configure all your Buttons Ingame. Also if you use the Ingame Config while using the Joystick Software, some Buttons won't work.

[@danielpazosguinea]

Another thing to mention in the video is that top tier hardware (VKB MCG pro, VPC t50 or TM WH) is a single purchase in a lifetime, unless you become sort of a collector like myself. I have the MCG Pro, the virpil throttle (2018 both), the Warthog (since 2011), and the Cougar (2003). All of them work without problems. All of these are in the $300+ league, but I bought them once, and I cannot even remember the number of PCs with further graphics card and memory upgrades they were connected to. Let’s say 4 year lifetime for a PC with an update (second to third year).... More than $6000, fact, so make it 20 times the investment, and, save the current machine, they are out of service. I had as well an X45 (2002), the predecessor of the x52, but they play in a lesser league, with my CH pro pedals (gameport->cougarized) and a Saitek’s one (usb). The only advantageous point is the lesser weight, that makes them really portable, and the Z axis, so no pedals required, so even more portable. But forget about the price, they last much less, and there’s no comparison in look’n’feel. About the pedals, the ones mentioned above are “good enough” for me, so not feeling to make the move into TM-TPR nor Slaws nor Crosswind (You didn’t talked about propper pedals in order to complete the setups).

[@noodlefoo]

I also used to owned the cheap TFlight HOTAS but never really used it. When I purchased ED 2 years ago, found the TFlight function too limited, gave it away to charity. Bought the Thrustmaster T16000M HOTAS and now happily playing ED with it.

[@noodlefoo]

OK, update after 4 months of solid almost-daily gaming on ED, the yaw control in the T16000M stick crapped out on me a few days ago. Another victim of its poor quality potentiometer. Would be happy yo spend more on that Warthog if only it has yaw control too.