Power Window Extravaganza: '04 Dodge Ram

Another simple diagnostic call takes longer than expected...
-inaccurate wiring diagrams
-compound problems
-intermittent problems
Might as well call this video "advanced test light diagnostics" and "finding faults in wiring diagrams".
At the end of the day the only things you can trust are your logical reasoning and your test light :)
Enjoy! More case studies are in the works!

[@user-ut6ji8my2h]

My hat is off to you young guys that have the patience and persistance to track down the built in problems in modern vehicles. I really think that there should be massive class action suits against manufacturers that produce the crap they foist on the public. It makes me cringe when I see the connectors they use with tiny pins, located where they can be sprayed with salt water. There is no excuse for this. All of us would be way better off without the "Features" that severely compromise reliability.

[@DriveBetter]

Yup. Chryslers and their wiring looms. I worked on a Journey where the rear wiper would come on when the driver selected reverse. Broken wiper ground wire in the rear hatch loom in the rubber grommet thingy. Took a while to realize where the open actually was. Now I see it's a common problem. Thanks for the vids.

[@12volttech5]

This power window switch is a reversal rest at ground switch. when the switch is in the neutral/rest position both window motor wires should show ground, the power is reversed on one of the 2 window motor wires when the power window switch is moved from its rest position. If the power window switch is moved to the up position one of the 2 wires will rest at ground while the other wire will be switched to positive. The power on the wires will be reversed when the power window switch is moved to the down position. Instead of grounding the suspected broken wire I would have jump it from the driver door switch to the RL door switch to check for change or use my multimeter to check for continuity in the suspected broken wire. If this was a data to data power window/lock system and you jumped that suspected broken wire to positive it would have been toast!

[@user-ut6ji8my2h]

What was wrong with cranks? Especially on a truck??? I learned when I was very young that about 95 % of the problems found on vehicles is electrical.

[@joelaplnski5394]

Electrical problems really put your brain in overdrive, nice job Ivan can't wait for part two!

[@petrocksgarage]

Great video & diagnosis. So happy to see you fix the switch rather then replace it. Too many people think broken electronics can't be fixed. It may just be me, but I've always like working on window circuits. Especially ones with window lock-out buttons. The circuit design is pretty ingenious, IMO. I had the same exact cracked solder joints for the window lock-out button on my '03 Dodge Durango a few years back. Its pretty much the same driver door switch/module you were working on. In my case the cracked solder joints were on the back side of the circuit board where the pins for the button were soldered to the board. From reading various dodge forums, bad solder joints in the driver door switch is a common issue with this vintage Dodge cars & trucks. Cold solder joints from the factory I guess in conjunction with people pounding on the button over time.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Pet Rock's Garage Thanks! Actually if you think about it, the lock-out button is barely ever used. The fundamental design flaw, as can be seen in the schematic, is that all the current for the window motors has to pass through that one solder joint when any of the "slave" switches are used. The problem is compounded when more than one window is operated at the same time... Excessive current on a circuit board with solder joints is never a good idea lol

[@petrocksgarage]

+motoYam82, very true. btw, I was just looking for the follow up video and can't find it. Did you ever upload it?

[@ScottDLR]

Props to you for fixing the switch module instead of replacing it!! This is a common problem but I would not expect one out of a 100 techs to reflow the bad solder joints. BTW, it's always better to change or at least add solder. Well done!

[@547Rick]

Sometimes no matter how hard you try to focus your mind on the simple circuit. It wonders back to the more complex problem. Been there done that. Nice work young man!!

[@mrexecutive1]

Thanks for an excellent power window diagnosis, as there isn't many on youtube. 90% of the time its always the dang masterswitch!!

[@deepsquat600]

Ivan ,,never apologize for an interesting case study where we follow along with your thought procces ,,really nice video

[@DJDevon3]

Great diagnostic. Bravo finding the cracked solder joint. Looking forward to seeing where the break in that wire is.

[@r.weaver3769]

Yep, pretty much had the same problem, except the LR window prob, pulled my switch, reflowed the solder, all good now!, Thanks man!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+R. Weaver Sweet!

[@joshuacingle7519]

just fixed my 03 ram, symptoms were the same passenger window would not work at its switch and had no power, pulled driver switch apart and boom same bad solder joint, re soldered and back in business, no parts required, thank ya much!!!!

[@adamtrombino106]

I know this is an old vid, but I watched it just to see your process. PW with the smart logic driver's door switches can be a real treat to diagnose. Scanning them through the BCM actually helped me track down an intermittent master sw, and also a broken wire in the door flex on a Kia Sedona. The master sw was NLA from Kia, and the aftermarket 1's were $157.00.. I took that 1 apart to find cracked solder joints as well. ( and told the customer to stop slamming the door LOL ) Then the driver's side flex had a broken wire in it. I actually had to fish the door loom all the way out and remove the door to fix it, because there was no room to get in there! I added about 2 inches of additional wire to help it have room to flex. They could've done that from the factory, as there was ample room for just a bit more length. I too use solder and heat shrink for my repairs. Butt to butt connectors just can't take that kind of movement.

[@scanhector3870]

Great video, excellent approach. One time I had a ford truck with power windows problem that only work when stepping on the brake pedal. At the end it was light bulbs blown at the high mounted brake lights. Keep up with the good work.

[@stuzman52]

Very nice thought process Ivan and anyone could get side-tracked with the wrong diagrams. I was looking at the diagrams at the beginning and couldn't see how the windows were supposed to work. I just let it go and followed along with you. Sure enough, the diagrams came back. One other thought that was a little surprising to me is that the switches were controlling the current to the motor. With a later model vehicle, I would have thought they would use the switches as inputs to a solid state door module in each door. Great video as I'm sure we were all thinking of what's going on with these windows.

[@417cameron]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[@stevescott8758]

Good video, shows just how important the correct information is when troubleshooting. Too many techs would have fitted switches and a motor.

[@wysetech2000]

Don't you just love incorrect wiring diagrams? Once you figure out the mistake it makes it go much easier. Awesome diagnosis and repair, Ivan.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+wysetech2000 Hah too bad there was more than one mistake! I love the clarity of Chrysler OEM diagrams, but the lack of accuracy is rather disappointing!! This wasn't the first time I've seen Chrysler royally goof up their diagrams...

[@wysetech2000]

Maybe the Italian and American translation. {:-)

[@davidgoldberg]

Good work Ivan, I enjoyed this diagnosis!

[@techsavantlove]

Well, your Description above says it all............. bad diagrams, more than one mechanical problem, and an intermittent failure mode. That's pretty complicated. I admire the way you handled it. In this particular situation, the process of filming and narrating probably added a larger layer of complexity than it usually would. I like the Important Mention you made of using a fuse in a jumper wire in certain situations. Very important. Well Done Master Ivan.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+douglas “The flame is dead” lee Thanks Douglas, it was a little messy for sure but now I know to trust my test light more than OEM wiring diagrams lol

[@techsavantlove]

I assume you'll be getting back to the ignition module study when you have time?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Don't worry Douglas, it will be posted very soon!

[@ericcorse]

Man you gave me a headache till you found that cold solder joint. Good info I've got power window issues on two of our vehicles.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Eric Corse lol that diagram gave me a headache...had to run around in circles for a bit. That diag should have taken half the time if the manufacturer info was accurate :)

[@ericcorse]

Isn't that the truth.

[@peelman1506]

Crap, my 2000 Jeep Cherokee had the exact same problem with the master switch as do many other Jeep owners. This must be a common Chrysler issue covering several years. Excellent video Ivan.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+peelman1506 Those Jeeps also like to break wires at the door flex :)

[@peelman1506]

+motoYam82 yes, what makes it worse in my jeep for some reason Chrysler decided to use a stiff connectors inside that flex boot and of course the wires would brakes of either side of the hard connector.

[@joeshearer1247]

nice job diagnosing that. was a pretty complex circuit and it felt like a real situation when you had to stop and regroup because it didn't make sense and then you didn't just stop at the bad master switch diagnosis and actually was able to repair the switch!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Joe Shearer Thanks, Joe! I do love the "no-parts-required" repairs. Plus I know that the re-soldering repair on the OEM module will outlast any cheap DORMAN aftermarket unit :) I mean the switch they swapped in (before I got to it) didn't even work fresh out of the box!!!

[@techsavantlove]

Just for future reference, in the Chrysler "cloud cars" (Sebring, Cirrus, etc) there is a well known issue with the Dash instrument Panel developing cold solder joints. This typically manifests as bad or non-sensical readings on the tachometer, and sometimes the gas gauge and coolant gauge.

[@ventureelect]

Hey remember SCOPE ON A ROPE is a registered trade mark to South main auto. I would be vweeeeeewy vweeeeeewy careful using that phrase. lol..

[@tiredoldmechanic1791]

He and Eric of SMA are very close. Maybe too close! LOL

[@demderby79]

Omg Ivan you're leaving me on pins and needles I want to see the fix for the broken wire

[@gblackburn31]

My 04 2500HD 5.9Cummins did same thing but was driver side rear. Even the speaker didn't work . Pulled the wire harness between door and cab and 5 of the 8 wires were broken. Stripped and reconnected them and everything was back to normal. Dodge sent all plastic and wiring work to Mexico from 02-06

[@michaelherbert8213]

Great job. Your videos keep getting better.

[@Gadget130]

I had the same problem, and it was due to the window lock button failing. Saved a lot of troubleshooting time by just replacing the entire driver side window and door control module. Bought OEM compatible module on Amazon, from SwitchDoctor, for less than $20. Completely plug and play, and swapped in less than 5 minutes. I heard you can also find the part on EBay.

[@DependableAutoTruck]

the up and down is done like a atv winch reversing polarity for up and down at least when you use a power probe that makes the motor go up and down

[@dixondanver2548]

At around 24 minutes the easiest thing to do would have add a temporary jumper from the main switch to the back door switch . Then you could have been able to utilize the reversing polarity from the main switch and supply the constant ground to back switch when the master was at rest .

[@Usmanthemecano]

16:22 when a diagram reads ORGY you know what kinda party was going on in that engineer's mind

[@SteveRobReviews]

Just mind blowing vid. Ivan I have the ScannerDanner style test light with a much finer tip for back probing. Fantastic testing , man that was off the hook. 👍👍

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Steve Rob Hmmm might be interested in that fine-tip test light if you know where I could get one :) Glad you enjoyed that one Steve...turns out this was just a warm-up for the Toyota that was next in line after the Ram. Good thing the camera battery didn't run out! :)

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I prefer the test light in many situations because it provides a SMALL load which can efficiently locate wiring problems (high-resistance issues like corroded connections or wiring damage) where a DVOM would show that everything is OK. The test light is KING for checking main powers and grounds, like here with the power window controls. As far as damaging sensitive computer modules, I cannot think of any situation where a test light would "fry" a component. A typical test light carries only about 200mA at 12V. Furthermore, the vast majority of computer inputs/outputs are well protected from excessive current by internal circuitry. Basically the DVOM and scope only come into play for checking voltages on high-resistance sensing circuits, as well as for the occasional component resistance check. Great question!

[@WellsVE]

Nice video. We really like your t-shirt :) Mike Becker, Technical Services Instructor

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Wells VE Thanks Mike! The WellsTech shirt really boosts my confidence in tackling those tough diagnostic calls...might have to order some more in the near future :)

[@WellsVE]

Keep answering our trivia questions and we will keep sending them to you!

[@randygudeahn7304]

butane irons are a great tool for sure. nice video Ivan.

[@luigitorchia8866]

You did another great job. This was a great help . Thanks.

[@whitetiger8652]

Great diagnosis Ivan.

[@billrimmer5596]

Just when it was getting really good. Stay tuned to next weeks episode.. Best part was when u yanked that a witch apart and voila. The solder joint.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Bill Rimmer That joint was the worst one I've ever seen. Surprised that it even worked intermittently!

[@ovwok]

Bill Rimmer remember that loadpro lead set I gave you? They would have found that high resistance solder joint fast. Testing voltage of an unloaded circuit means nothing.

[@feeneysmechanical6215]

Nice work Ivan. awesome job.

[@sixpacksandsrts9122]

Like they say. A weatherman gets paid to be rite or wrong. Figured someone making a diagram for people to use would be on their game 100%. Crazy.

[@silentwookie1]

You should definitely do an intro to the channel video and give us a background on your education and automotive experience!!

[@seftonplayer32]

The reason it's not working in the up direction is because the ground is coming from the master switch and it's an open wire

[@KRTube75]

2002 Ram 1500 here. Very common issue. The solder joints break in the door control box. Reflow solder to fix. The second issue is the wires inside the boot from the door to the pillar break inside. Unhook the boot, fix the wires, reinstall boot. Problem solved.

[@user-ut6ji8my2h]

The problem is also solved by not buying anything made by Chrysler CORP.

[@1kleineMax1]

At 10:00 I just paused and downloaded the diagrams (BBB) as I wanted to follow you along and i sat there vor 5 min starring at the door switch (not master). Because i saw no ground when you use the door switch :D I was pissed and said to myself if this diagram is correct ill stop calling me a 'NFZ-Mechatronicker' (German truck mechanic). Started your video again to see what you will do AND BAAAAM at 11:40 you said it: ITS ALL WRONG ^^ They somehow confused the two diagonal lines in the masterswitch diagram

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+1kleineMax1 That's awesome! You reasoning is right on the $$. Initially when I first studied the diagram, I assumed that the ground for the auxilliary switches would come from the common "lockout" wire, even though on the diagram it was an "open" pin. Nope haha.

[@1kleineMax1]

At our shop we had to beg that the boss buys a subscriptions for two of our main brands (MAN, Mercedes Benz Truck) because you can not find diagrams an tech-info for free with these brand. But i hope they do a better job with there diagrams :D This fault it the diagram cost you an nearly 1h, didnt it? PS: Do you now a sauce for CATERPILLAR wiring diagrams, cause i often work on them, but in germany you cant even buy them from CAT...

[@tecnaman5801]

+1kleineMax1 Like you I downloaded the wiring diagram from BBB and came to the same conclusion! Ivan is on the money.The positive and negative connections as shown in the drivers master switch diagram are drawn back to front. It shows power being supplied on the 2 wires going to each switch instead of 2 grounds when the circuit is at rest. Also if the other 3 window switches don't have ground continuity to the motor at rest,, the window switch on the drivers door may only operate the window one way depending on which side of the switch( at the door ) has no continuity. Any auto elecs out there feel free to correct me if i'm wrong!!! Another great piece of detective work Ivan...

[@rayrowe2664]

I've had 2 Chrysler products that needed a master window panel

[@kylespade5958]

My truck is an 07. Everything works but as soon as I drive it around and then stop, everything turns off on the driver switch (My driver side switch has individual lights for each switch). And I can't operate the windows. I turn the car off and turn t back on and it works again. It's driving me crazy but I'll use this as sort of a guide.

[@JoelAutomotiveInaction]

Ivan . I need to get a butane what model or what brand is the one you are using? thanks for the high quality material on this video as others too .

[@donnierobertson3088]

GOOD JOB

[@chillybrit2334]

That larger connector at the driver's door not being fully plugged in for the whole video bugged me e.g. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGetlZR8fdd0oJY May just be an optical illusion but I'd swear the end closest to the camera is not fully home.

[@brianclark2876]

Thank you !!

[@EL_TORCIDO]

Your are extremely talented and great at what u do but how come you jus didn’t replace the switch and soldered it instead

[@PaulHigginbothamSr]

Ivan the mistake you were making is you were grounding to the latch instead of the other end of the orange and white wire. Thus by making a global ground at the door the long range drivers switch would not work but the switch at the door would. Easy peasy Ivan.

[@georgegonzalez2442]

It would have been better if you'd used a proper load resistor instead of the little test light. The motor draws many amps, probably 40 times more than the test light. So a poor connection somewhere will still light the test light, but not pass enough current to drive a motor.

[@nigelkendall5892]

great fix, bit of a head f**k but you got it. being a bit cheeky how much labour did you charge ,just wanted to know

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+nigel kendall One hour for the diag, half hour for the switch repair. Locating and repairing the broken wire would be an extra hour...might get to finish that up this coming week!

[@ozzstars_cars]

Nice diagnostics. Consider two ro three times before buying a Dodge lol

[@NewLevelAuto]

looking back at this video one year later what would you do differently to speed up your diagnosis time?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Keith, you are a brilliant teacher to ask a question like that! Well, I wouldn't make a lengthy video. Then I would trust my intuition more than Chrysler's crappy diagram. And I now have more convenient test lights! Anything else you would do?

[@NewLevelAuto]

motoYam82 Rather than using outside ground sources in the beginning for my test light. I would have gone right across the pins for the motor , regardless of how the diagram looked it did have one valuable item which was the 2 wires to each motor. And as we know all they need are power and ground. It would have shortened the diagnosis a bit

[@michaelmiller5618]

For come back sake wouldn't it be better to get a new board and check the solder connects before installing.

[@dennisboyd6937]

orange wire under drivers side door

[@dewalt4598]

There is a video on here by someone called " dangdodge " that shows how to fix this in less that 2 minutes , instead of 36 minutes like this dude . Check it out. Works great !!!!

[@fieldsofomagh]

Just as well your not faultfinding the Mir space station with those wiring diagrams.All manufacturers should be compelled to have a proper database with access to the correct info.Complex problem with a very successful outcome.You earn your dollars in that job.

[@deepsquat600]

+Tom OConnor the other day I was trying to find a better diagram for my KIA .. a forum sent me to something like Global KIA ..anyway they had a disclaimer on the front page that basically said "We have given you this info ofr free for the last 8 years ..but every other manufacturer charges ...so starting this month we are going to charge you too ...congratulations and thanks for all the mony you are now going to have to spend ! "

[@417cameron]

Quick question if you have time, my 2006 Durango 5.7l the wipers will swipe once upon startup, otherwise they work fine. Sometimes it doesn't do it either. Any ideas ?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+417cameron That's weird lol...nothing wrong with a clean windshield before you start driving right? Looks like on your truck the body accessories are all controlled through the integrated power module, which could be glitching. That's the problem with newer vehicles...everything is controlled by black boxes, so all you can do is check inputs and outputs, then replace the (expensive) box!

[@imuahayn8082]

Amazon sells new master power window switch for $30

[@martinarrieta7779]

bonito video grasias

[@philh9238]

the difference between a loaded and unloaded circuit test. the flow chart im sure would have you check switch continuity and then you would have missed it for sure. get yourself a set of loadpro test leads and a power probe to go with your tools bud

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+phil holbrook I have thought about the PowerProbe and LoadPro "time-saver" tools. HOWEVER, the old-fashioned test light wins in two areas: simplicity, and circuit safety. It is just too easy to accidentally press that magic button and see the magic smoke :) A regular incandescent test light and some jumpers can do everything the fancy tools can with a little more time for thought...which is what diagnostics is all about!

[@deepsquat600]

+motoYam82 Ivan I too was going to mention the load pro ( I have one ) ..those will NOT power a circuit only add a load .. now as you know the power probe can ..and would be great for say testing that motor on the windo .. but for helping us learn about wiring diagrams and yuour thoughts,,I love the test light work you and Eric do!!!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+deepsquat600 I am wondering: how is loading the ckt with the Load Pro different than loading it with a test light? Are there different current settings?

[@deepsquat600]

+motoYam82 well I guess the only difference would be that you could see the voltage ..and if not 12 volts you can see added resistance in the wires ?? ( corrosion ect?? )

[@deepsquat600]

+deepsquat600 BTW Dan Sullivan ..the inventor of Load Pro has a few videos on here..being that you have 10 times more knowledge then I do on electrical circuits maybe watch one or two? even has one were a tech is checking a power window problem :)

[@stuartcookie133]

Hey Ivan thanks for fixing my windows but can I get my sawzall and box of socks back?!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

haha the SOCKS box!

[@grzegorz16100]

Nice soldering iron. Can get a link to buy it?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Gregory May I got it at RadioShack before they went out of business...so try online I guess

[@laohantun7404]

Oh... solder dry joints, made in Mexico......😃😃😃 Solder lead quality. Oh me I came across many times with some cathode ray tube television set.

[@specialedbob]

I am actually going to school with a Chrysler tech. He says that 30% of Chrysler service information is wrong.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+specialedbob That sounds about right haha

[@ihrescue]

After watching your power window extravaganza last night and this repair of a Gibson Sam Bush signature mandolin by Rosa String Works I hear you twin excellent trouble shooters, diagnosticians and problem solvers on the same plane. I think you would enjoy following this. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6nZm5uHibmcqqc

[@stoolie10]

seems to be a common issue with dodge. simple fix though.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Definitely simple fix, if you know where to look!

[@caryphilips8100]

8

[@ifecojahs8151]

you need ect 2000

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

+Ifeco Jahs We'll bust out the ECT 2000 to find the broken wire in the follow-up!

[@kdmq]

Always remember: 12V from depressed lockout button: unlocked 0V from released lockout button: locked You'll never get slid by a lockout again ;)

[@dassme1]

overthought way to much 1st thing is to do is always check the door boots for breaks fix them . and they rest at ground driver door switch is known for issues

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I am showing how do do a diagnosis from scratch. Of course you can start with common issues and replace the driver's door switch but where's the fun in that? Do you learn anything new by doing that?

[@Gagik5779]

you am agree with you ,not to be a part changer many of mechanics and auto electrics doing that not understanding the isses

[@keithdintze2842]

By the way Ivan you need to take a trip for about 6 months to the Southwest to dry out your sinuses

[@MrIFixEverything]

.Great diagnosis Ivan.