101: What is predestination? With Fr. Thomas Joseph White

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Today we're joined around the bar table by Father Thomas Joseph White to discuss predestination.
Learn more about the Hillbilly Thomists here: www.dominicana...
Here's a couple of excerpts from Thomas on predestination from the Prima pars:
Here’s some of what Aquinas had to say on predestination:
It is fitting that God should predestine men. For all things are subject to His providence, as was shown above (I:22:2). Now it belongs to providence to direct things towards their end, as was also said (I:22:1 and I:22:2). The end towards which created things are directed by God is twofold; one which exceeds all proportion and faculty of created nature; and this end is life eternal, that consists in seeing God which is above the nature of every creature, as shown above (I:12:4). The other end, however, is proportionate to created nature, to which end created being can attain according to the power of its nature. Now if a thing cannot attain to something by the power of its nature, it must be directed thereto by another; thus, an arrow is directed by the archer towards a mark. Hence, properly speaking, a rational creature, capable of eternal life, is led towards it, directed, as it were, by God. The reason of that direction pre-exists in God; as in Him is the type of the order of all things towards an end, which we proved above to be providence. Now the type in the mind of the doer of something to be done, is a kind of pre-existence in him of the thing to be done. Hence the type of the aforesaid direction of a rational creature towards the end of life eternal is called predestination. For to destine, is to direct or send. Thus it is clear that predestination, as regards its objects, is a part of providence.
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God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (I:22:2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (I:22:1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin.

[@Stygard]

Thanks for the video. I just came into the church this Easter Vigil from a calvinistic background and this was very helpful.

[@AarmOZ84]

​@@bayreuth79 Thomas Aquinas could read Greek.

[@terratremuit4757]

@@bayreuth79 The cause of Augustinian predestination arising was not due to faulty Latin translations. The reason the earlier Greek Fathers, as well as Latin Fathers (it was not a translation issue), did not profess predestination (or monergism in salvation as opposed to synergism in sanctification) was simply because the Pelagian/Semipelagian controversies had not arisen yet! We do not judge Ignatius of Antioch by the Christology of Nicaea! This would be ludicrous.

[@BrianGondo]

@@bayreuth79 So 'no one knows for sure if Aquinas read Greek', yet you state it as fact that he could not read Greek. And why is Jerome's translation of the Greek into Latin defective?

[@zachm.6572]

The stark differences between St. Augustine and the “Greek” tradition (represented well by St. John Cassian in his disagreements with Augustine) have always been amazing to me.

[@kalpanapatidar3041]

Bh

[@brianw.5230]

Father White is the best! Please have him on again. And don't forget to get a blessing at the end!

[@muslim4226]

I was a sad atheist person and I was feeling anxious, upset and worried and I was thinking about suicide and my friend was a Muslim and he was very happy and he used to go to the mosque and he was happy and respectful and he was an honest person then he invited me to go with him to the mosque then I knew that Islam is the truth and I entered Islam and I felt happy Islam is the source of happiness

[@Ph.Martin]

The whole show is worth it, I particularly like the part about hope as a virtue to put into practice ( 43:30)

[@Gospelogian]

Love the idea of “pints with A..” - found your video to see what else what out there on KZbin about predestination.

[@bobdinkytown]

I got so many versions of Wayfaring Stranger on my phone now, and they're all awesome!

[@nellyblancaflor5559]

"Hope ...is an undernourished virtue..."

[@Dandymancan]

I’m glad to see we Catholics like bluegrass. My favorite gosple singer is hank Williams

[@brotherandrew3393]

That was a nice cover of Wayfaring Stranger. But I guess my favorite version is from Johnny Cash.

[@emilesturt3377]

Wonderful Xxx

[@markgillespie8829]

Great video God bless. Could you do a video on the sermon by saint Leonard of Port Maurice. I am confused by it.

[@muslim4226]

I was a sad atheist person and I was feeling anxious, upset and worried and I was thinking about suicide and my friend was a Muslim and he was very happy and he used to go to the mosque and he was happy and respectful and he was an honest person then he invited me to go with him to the mosque then I knew that Islam is the truth and I entered Islam and I felt happy Islam is the source of happiness

[@josephzammit8483]

St. John Bosco Guide, Teacher and Model for Priests kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6nRiqdvhpiMqqs

[@DSTH323]

For any who might be interested, at Catholic Critique (WordPress) see "Harmony and Differences on Predestination in Catholic Theology"

[@jonathantinnely5107]

14:00 St. Thomas taught explicitism (that only those who believe explicitly in the Trinity and the Incarnation) are saved.

[@jonathantinnely5107]

15:00 Calvin taught the same view as the Banezian interpretation of St. Thomas (unconditional election, and unconditional negative reprobation).

[@nenabunena]

Can you have this thomistic institute in the Philippines? We are in dire need of good theology. I'm in catechesis class and the 2 priests teaching us are heretical and teaching heresies contradicting the catechesis book we are reading

[@geo.ies93]

I agree, kapatid. We are so poorly catechized. That’s why I frequent channels like this. A lot of priests sa Pinas are so ironically lukewarm. Praying for Filipinos who are in search of truth. 🙏🏻

[@nenabunena]

@@geo.ies93 1 obviously bakla priest told me about Jesus summarizing the 10 commandments: to love and honor God and 2nd your neighbor. That we should Ignore the 1st commandment, it's not important, just love your neighbor. When Jesus Himself said that the first is primary of the 2.

[@benaim7925]

Hello, fellow Filipinos

[@RiotOfDeath]

Hey Matt, first things first, amazing video as always. Really enjoyed this one! I have a question that I hope you can help me with and I realise that it was briefly addressed in the video but I've always wondered what happens to those in far off countries like Africa or countries where they've never heard of Christ. I agree that the possibility of everyone to be saved by grace is given but how will such people be saved? Will they end up in hell or? I know this is a difficult question but if you could point me in the right direction that would be great! Thanks :)

[@KMF3]

is there one in Phoenix AZ

[@riptorn3591]

Jesus said to Judas : Joh 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Jesus did not attempt to stop him.

[@nenabunena]

Or if you could have an online website?

[@hopelessstrlstfan181]

This is only part of the answer. Catholics do not have to accept this Dominican view of predestination. A powerful alternative accepted by the Catholic Church is Molinism which is more subtle and allows for a robust understanding of Grace, God's Predistination, and a very robust understanding of free will. It is based on the idea of "Middle Knowledge" of God. This is simply the idea that God knows how all human beings would react under various situations. This simple idea frees us from all of the difficulties found in the Thomist's attempts to reconcile God's Predistination with our free will and the desire GOd has for all men to be saved. Agustine and Aquinas really stumbled on this issue. Learn more about Molinism by looking it up in the Catholic Encyclopedia

[@chrisoliverdelacruz5347]

do you think that a Catholic like me can accept the middle knowledge and then get most of my theology from Thomism? Because, I like the idea of the MIddle Knowledge and at the same time, I like the idea of the sovereignty of God.

[@hopelessstrlstfan181]

My first inclination is to say yes. I can't think of anything about Thomism's basic insights which would contradict Molina' s definition of middle knowledge. My humble opinion is that Aquinas likely would have accepted the idea if it had been presented to him. I am not an expert, so I recommend that you continue to look into that question. If I were you, I would try asking Dr. Anders who has a call-in show on EWTN radio network which I listen to through youtube and the also EWTN's website. Dr. Ander's call-in show is called "Called 2 Communion." Molinism is the school of thought which brought the notion of middle knowledge into the center of this discussion which attempts to reconcile predestination and free will. The notion of God's Sovereignty is still rather robust in the system of Molinism even while maintaining a notion of free will which is much closer to that of most Catholic lay people, an idea which doesn't require that God gives some people an extra level of grace in order to be saved. In my opinion, the presentation of Molinism in the above video didn't give the view a fair hearing, btw.

[@kvnboudreaux]

I have a hard time accepting the Molinists position because scripture has some clear passages that specifically say our election is not based on our works...

[@hopelessstrlstfan181]

@@kvnboudreaux Molinism does not teach that the Grace of Salvation is earned or given to us as a result of our action. Molinism teaches that if anyone is saved it is because God 1st gave them the Grace necessary to respond to his call with faith. However, unlike Calvinism, Molinism does teach that men can freely choose to accept this gift of Grace or reject it. Thus, if a man is damned, he alone is to blame for rejecting God's Grace of Salvation and if he is saved it is only thru the Gift of God's Grace given freely. Further, unlike Calvinism, Molinism teaches that all men are given sufficient Grace in order to be saved.

[@hopelessstrlstfan181]

@@kvnboudreaux ooops. I responded to your comment without checking which video I had posted comments to. I guess you already knew what I said in my reply. I guess my reply should have been to ask how you see such verses to be in conflict with Molina's views?

[@dblake32]

It seems like Father White is talking in circles when he says we are saved by God's action of grace, but only if we decide to do something with it because we could just as likely (actually more likely) not engage with it and be lost. What is his response to Paul who writes, "Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Rom. 9:21-23).

[@aleksandragieralt7370]

Hey! I haven't finished the video yet, sorry, I just need to explain something as a self-published author regarding Amazon. I am published on Amazon and, on the one hand, it has given a platform to myself and other authors with views that adhere to more rigid moral codes than mainstream media currently promotes. Nowadays its not possible to be published if you view the world through a Catholic lens. To put it bluntly: its a matter of politics; American publishing company CEOs vote Democrat and only want to publish books by people who promote the views of that party (FYI, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican: I'm Polish Canadian). I am not saying all authors and publishing company employees are Democrat voters, but those who are not hide their views and promote Democrat ideals in the books they write, edit and publish (I am not saying this to demonize mainstream books or say you shouldn't READ books with a different perspective, just that I am not willing to perform Democratic politics for them in my writing because 1) its deceitful and 2) I write mostly for fun and pretending to be something I'm not would suck the fun out of it, if it were my profession maybe I'd view things differently). (I fully understand there are Catholic publishing companies but my stories are fiction/fantasy and some Catholic publishers would not want to publish that; furthermore, I am not a theologian, so there are inaccuracies in my books. Ex. my short story, which is full of Catholic themes (its about Christmas, talks about the birth of Christ and involves a Slavic monster turning human for a night because she entered a church), has a scene in which I think there might be what's called "liturgical abuse" - I did not know a lot about Catholic liturgy at the time and I had seen that sort of thing happen in churches (a nativity play performed at the foot of a "low altar" in a small wooden chapel), so I thought it was OK - I don't have time to do a whole lot of research on every facet of theology, I don't think I could ever be published by a Catholic publisher because I don't think I could ever have the knowledge required. Furthermore, I would feel weird having the church sign off with an "imprimatur" on my fantasy novels as if they were some sort of doctrine and I was some sort of authority . . .). There's also the fact that on Amazon you have full control over what goes into your book and how its formatted, what it looks like, etc. Some small bookstore owners worry that Amazon will run them out of business, however, I often order copies of my books and give them to bookstores; that's one of the ways for indie authors to get bookstore presence. Its also possible to get your books into libraries that way. However, I have a problem with the company: Amazon gives part of its money to Planned Parenthood. That being said, so do a lot of big publishers. They're also very globalist. I prefer smaller businesses run in my own country to multinational corporations (I am not fully opposed to them, they employ a lot of people, but I prefer local and shop local when I can to support my country's and community's economy). I don't have the sort of funding and legal knowledge required to become my own publishing company as some indie authors have done. So Amazon is a viable but highly problematic option for Catholic authors all things considered. I might try to get some of my coloring books published with a Catholic publisher, but I don't think its an appropriate forum for my novels (I make an effort to promote Catholicism, but, again, I prefer to leave the preaching to people wiser and more knowledgeable than myself). Maybe if I ever write non-fiction I will quarry a Catholic agent.

[@davidfabien7220]

Titus: For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men teaching us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions and to live sober, upright and godly lives in this age, awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and to purify for himself a people of his own zealous for good deeds. "My soul has no pleasure in the soul that perisheth." James 4:6 But he bestows a greater grace; therefore it says: "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." James 1:14-15 Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death. It is therefore fair to say that man has a desire/hunger for sin. Sin works in progression and will inevitably and irreversibly lead to death if left unchecked. As sin involves a process of time, if we are willing we can amend our ways through God's grace, help from the church, sheer determination, genuine contrition and confession and also through spiritual counselling.

[@jamessgian7691]

I never get a satisfactory answer to this question. God knows how people will react to grace and where everyone will end up for ETERNITY!! He made everyone, so he made those whom He knew would not receive the grace, knowing they will end up separated from Him for eternity. I cannot see how the creation of humans that He knows will end in hell forever could be good. It is evil to make a being that is limited and under your power when you know they will suffer forever. How can this be good when NOT creating them would be better for them and they have no choice as to whether they will be born??! I can only conclude that our free will is such that God must NOT know what we will freely choose. His will will be done in the end and He wants all to repent, but He must not know what we will choose. This is the only way Jesus can remain good. It seems to contradict omniscience, but perhaps knowing the decisions of truly free beings is as impossible as a square circle. But this is not what Catholicism teaches, so I then have to say I think the Church is wrong, and that failure to assent would mean I am not Catholic???

[@bennigan88]

How was Noah a pagan?

[@muslim4226]

I was a sad atheist person and I was feeling anxious, upset and worried and I was thinking about suicide and my friend was a Muslim and he was very happy and he used to go to the mosque and he was happy and respectful and he was an honest person then he invited me to go with him to the mosque then I knew that Islam is the truth and I entered Islam and I felt happy Islam is the source of happiness

[@damiandziedzic23]

To be honest, it's not a fair and accurate representation of Augustine and Aquinas's view on predestination.

[@apologiaromana4123]

How?

[@OldScrewl1928]

What about presentism? The church does not forbid it and it cannot be proved that the future or past have existence. Yes, past events are somewhat evident from results and future events become more clear as they approach, but are they fixed on timeline? Maybe there is only a point of the present scanning a timeline which in which the past is a line but the future is a field of probability. Maybe God is conducting a beautiful symphony that only He can comprehend. Could God not change the past without anyone's awareness? I love Aquinas and he was obviously brilliant on another level, but I think man, in his natural desire to know his Creator, assumes too much of his intellect. Could the biblical passages on predestination not be speaking of being selected for existence in the first place? Do we not believe that God could conceive of a person and decide to not bring them into existence?

[@kiupokonggan]

i suspect neither of them is drunk

[@VishalPatel-fq3im]

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