Natural Family Planning is NOT Contraception W/ Jason Evert

I talk with Jason about potentially underselling the difficulty of Natural Family Planning in Marriage, and the clear difference between NFP and Contraceptives, in principle and intent.
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[@harmonygordon6901]

"Marinated in the contraceptive culture " BAZINGO Perfect term. We no longer live in a culture that sees children as a blessing nor sees large families as normal. The culture entices adults to be stuck in perpetual adolescence. Responsibility is seen as Tomfoolery. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR A SMALL DEPENDENT HUMAN ? That infers sacrifice. Sacrifice is completely rejected. Mother Mary pray for us.

[@katiemurphy3601]

Jesus pray for us 🙏

[@Racools]

You can use contraception and be happy that you are having a kid.... thought i would just point that out considering the conflation.

[@thehealthymama1047]

I agree. It's totally a cultural flaw. 💔

[@MichaelG485]

There's 8 billion people on the planet. We don't need large families anymore.

[@ekatrinya]

NFP seems like a form of control just like condoms. I'm torn on the issue of birth control because if you have babies too close together they often miscarry.

[@bernadettegalvin7768]

Even as a cradle catholic who understands completely why contraceptives are wrong and accepts the churches allowance of nfp, I still find NFP confusing. Even amongst Catholics I feel like they dont understand why I'm having my 3rd and they are all less than 2 years apart....because I'm not obligated to use NFP to be a good catholic, I'm obligated to be open to life. Also how can you be open to life and pick a number of children to have? I feel like that's contradictory.

[@UnwaveringLight]

Using NFP by its nature says you don't pick a number of children to have. While NFP couples may suggest a number in mind, it's all tongue-in-cheek as it is up to God what will happen in every act, placing no barriers/impairments to the reproductive system but rather having a deep knowledge of the woman's body, respecting it, and being open to what may come.

[@declannewton2556]

Probably not everybody could afford a school bus for 20 kids.

[@bernadettegalvin7768]

@@declannewton2556 but you couldn't choose to have 20 children arbitrarily. You may want to have 20 kids, but it is still ultimately dependant on whether or not you recieve them (through any means, most people who marry young and don't stop things have less than 10, and you'd be similarly struggling to be allowed to adopt that many). And yet we think we can choose a smaller number? And let's not pretend that if people didn't limit their family size they would all have large families or in your example 20.

[@almondaamarena1438]

Youre so right!!

[@alqoshgirl]

You are open to life by understanding when you are having intercourse there is a chance you will get pregnant. Abstaining means you 100% won’t conceive when you abstain during the fertile window. But even if you think you’re outside the fertile window there is always a chance to be pregnant when you have intercourse. That’s all what it means. We have 4 kids now in the past 6 years. I’m ready to take a break and we will abstain during my fertile window. We know though that there is chance I will be pregnant again. I’m open to it and that child will be loved but it isn’t something I’m actively trying to achieve.

[@luciadeloach9932]

“If you think TVs better than sex, you’re not doing it right” 😂

[@tyson-cz2je]

another funny one ive heard is a guy telling a catholic father, "careful dude, you may have screwed yourself out of a seat at the dinner table." its more crude but still funny imo

[@MelanieBarrozo-u7s]

Or you have a health issue to check out.

[@aisthpaoitht]

Your wife is blessed to be able to have that many children. Some people are not able to do that for physical or mental reasons. It really is wrong to tell people that if their body or mind can't handle more children, that they should be physically isolated from their spouse.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

No, it is not. It is telling them to take that into consideration.

[@MelanieBarrozo-u7s]

I’m wrestling with this one, guys. In all honesty it’s not even that I just don’t want more kids. I love being a mom more than anything. I also have a pretty severe eating disorder. I’m kinda lucky to have the kids I have. I seriously think my miscarriage was caused by the eating disorder though the doctor said really it’s more likely due to chromosomes since I was normal weight and doing okay at the time. I’m way better but every time I’ve gone through the postpartum period it’s been extremely rough to even manage to stay sane. Every kid is different and a blessing from God and I don’t believe I’d “regret” having more children. I’d even be happy to have one more, but 5 or 6 sounds completely impossible. How do people navigate this issue? I always believed in contraception being “fine” then when I actually had kids I had a change of heart but I also just don’t see how it’s possible to want more. And why is NFP okay but not a condom, which cannot really harm the baby or anything after the fact? I guess I don’t understand the nuance. Praying for clarity.

[@ammcroft]

This is definitely a topic I wish I had more insight on. I have serious health issues and 4 kids and we are strapped financially and our marriage is strained as it is. I hope God is okay with us abstaining :/

[@theEmperoroftheNorth]

@Patz13 After a period of discernment of course.

[@theEmperoroftheNorth]

I would seek the council of a good priest, but of course I don't know your situation and I pray that Our Lady intercedes for you in your struggle. I also pray that Our Lord has mercy on you in this time of strife. May God bless you and Our Lady keep you. ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

[@ammcroft]

Okay, so I have Chronic Idiopathic Neutropenia. I am sick most all of the time, despite meds which make me feel HORRIBLE for about 24 hours every 4 to 7 days, and I start to wonder if I chose the wrong vocation...a lot. We need a nanny and can't afford one. My husband can't take off work anymore, and I have a hard time taking care of children because I dont feel well...a lot. I should mention I also have bad back issues...Seriously?! I don't understand why so much? I ask a lot that the suffering will not be in vain, but also feel like such a burden to family and worthless a lot. Having more children we are open to, but we are already past survival mode, so I hope God understands we are abstaining. Our ship is sinking many days. God's will be done. I know there is sooooo much sin to do penance for. May my suffering not be in vain. God understands right? Thank you all!

[@theEmperoroftheNorth]

@@ammcroft Dear Mrs. Amy King, Thank you for sharing your story with us all here. My family and I (and I am sure many others who read this) will pray for you and your family that you will get through this awful situation. We pray that Our Lady Undoer of Knots will straighten everything out for you all. We pray that Our Lord Jesus Christ, King of the Universe, will, on His dominion over all things, guide you and your family through your time of need. To continue, my advice to you, Mrs. Amy, is follow your husband and what he has discerned is best for your family, he is your head in all things (barring of course, as we all know, matters of sin). I would recommend you and your husband find a good and holy priest to council you in this most tumultuous time of your life. This will be a great asset and source of grace in this your time of great need. Keep yourself in the Sacraments and especially remember to pray (I am sure you already do this, but even the best can stand to be reminded). May God have mercy on you, and offer you many great consolation. And may the Good Lord reward you for all that you endure. To the question at hand, God perfectly understand your situation and He knows your heart better than you or especially I and anyone else possibly can. In terms of the discussion of NFP, that I will leave to you, your husband, and a holy priest. This all being said, God will only grant you the children that only He knows you need (and the world needs) and can care for as you ought. Abandonment to Divine Providence is always important in everything we do. Our Father in Heaven cares for the birds and the lilies, how much more will He care for us. May God bless your family with overabundance that you may serve Him all the more. I will close with this, do not be afraid to ask for help. Ask your family and friends and community especially your Parish. God will use all of these places to bless you and aid you in your need. God always sees you even when others overlook you. God will provide what you need to get through this. May God bless you and Our Lady keep you. Your Humbled Brother in Christ Jesus, Avery D. R-N. ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

[@DamonOwens]

Amy, God bless you for your openness with your terrible suffering. I also join with Avery's prayers for you all. Be at peace with your discernment of another child. Counsel and good community with other faithful couples is essential and irreplaceable for us who will to live our Sacramental marriage. I pray God sends you the friendship and confidence so needed. I will tell you that even in your brief description you have described 3 of the 4 enumerated categories of serious reasons to exercise responsible (conscious) parenthood "with due respect for moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time."(HV §10) I also recommend reading Humanae Vitae §16 which speaks directly to your "physical or psychological condition." Praying together with your husband *exactly* what you shared here is a BEAUTIFUL prayer to Our Father. You are his beloved daughter in whom He is delighted! Ask Him to make his will for your family clear and done. Your faith in Him and His Church comes through loudly and clearly even in a combox, so I trust your prayers will be so all the more. Do not add to your burden any anxiety any non-existent demand to have as many children as you biologically can. The Church has never taught such, though many in the Church do. Neither periodic abstinence, recourse to the infertile periods, nor NFP are *indults* (exceptions to the moral law), they are NECESSARY conditions to live a moral married life. (Familiaris Consortio §33) Children are indeed the "altum bonum" (supreme good) of marriage, but remember our stewardship includes both the procreation AND education of our children. Know that God made the marital act procreative (open to life) and unitive (bonding) by its nature. We don't do anything to make it procreative or unitive. The moral law (love) demands that we do nothing else to try and change its meaning. Please feel free to reach out to me privately if I can help in any way.

[@michaelmicek]

Even in the process of defending NFP, Jason Evert misuses two terms, "contraceptive mentality" and "open to life". When Pope St. John Paul II used (invented) the term "contraceptive mentality," he was referring to the anti-life mentality that follows from using contraception. That is, the mentality that those using contraception tend to have regarding abortion, euthanasia, and so forth. It is fundamentally impossible to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality. Likewise, it's wrong to use "open to life" to mean ignoring fertility and the possibility of conception. NFP is open to life; it is not intending to close off the meaning of the sexual act, but obedient to it.

[@MrMosin-sv3xu]

>"When Pope St. John Paul II used (invented) the term "contraceptive mentality," he was referring to the anti-life mentality that follows from using contraception. That is, the mentality that those using contraception tend to have regarding abortion, euthanasia, and so forth. It is fundamentally impossible to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality." Pope St. JP2 does no have ownership of the term "contraceptive mentality". Jason is free to use the phrase as he chooses so long as he is able to communicate an idea. That is the point of language, after all. Clearly you got the message he was saying, else you wouldn't be able to identify it as incompatible with his word choice.

[@michaelmicek]

@@MrMosin-sv3xu I can appreciate a descriptivist approach to lexicography, but it's inconvenient when words change meaning, and this is literally a matter of life and death (by which I mean literal spiritual and physical death, not figuratively). NFP (to try to avoid pregnancy) is attacked right and left on the grounds that it is morally equivalent to contraception. When the Right uses terms that imply (if not outright believing in most circumstances) that this is the case, it sows confusion in the faithful, weakening defenses if not providing ammunition to attacks from the Left.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@michaelmicek If the Right has good criticisms it should be aired for moral clarity. There is a contraceptive mentality in not wanting kids and doing sex not to have any.

[@morganatorricelli1413]

I really don't know much about the topic, but could it be that the distinction between contraception and NFP is that while the former seeks to detatch sex and conception, while NFP considers the whole deal (so the intrinsic relation between sexual acts and conception, besides all the other physical and emotional factors) and addresses the issue in a more complete way?

[@nicksibly526]

NFP is open to life while still allowing you to choose when and if you have a baby. It also promotes communication between spouses. There is no harm to either persons body through drugs or surgery. It still implies that life is welcome if it eventuates. Artificial contraception is a big No to life and creates the mind set that a child is unwelcome. It shouldn't be used as an excuse to turn your wife into a baby making machine. Abstinence is part and parcel of NFP.

[@theresanotare2296]

@@Unclenate1000 Not true. First, NFP methods are not "contraception"--they do nothing to oppose conception. All contraceptive methods have the action to stop human fertility or frustrate its end. NFP methods, on the other hand are "fertility education" and in fact, promote a respect for human fertility and even the new person who may be conceived from the union. NFP methods teach couples about the time of fertility in the woman's cycle so that they can "respect" the woman's cycle, "accept" it and "work with it." Then, outside of this information, in each new cycle of the wife, husband and wife can decide to either try to attempt pregnancy in the fertile time or avoid it by simply abstaining. This promotes couple communication and respect for each other. It also promotes approaching their conjugal life holistically--both husband and wife honoring and respecting each other and the possible children to be bore from them. Contraception on the other hand, disrespects the couple relationship and in particular, the woman's body and certainly the possible new life that may be conceived. Plus, contraception, especially the chemicals, have negative side effects that harm the woman's body and even the environment! So, NFP, good for the body and great for the couple's relationship! And go green with NFP!

[@AverageMED]

@@nicksibly526thats false the failure of condoms is higher than failure of NFP. So in essence its less open to birth than

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@AverageMED The failure is not as much the issue as intention is.

[@businessacc179]

Yes all yes. Well timed video, thank you.

[@katiemurphy3601]

Just a note, you can have a period before you ovulate. You can have anovulatory cycles.

[@michaelmicek]

Bleeding before ovulation is either withdrawal bleeding or breakthrough bleeding (which is highly fertile), not menstruation, even though in either case it can be just as heavy. Modern NFP (Billings, Creighton, STM, Marquette, etc. as now taught) does not recognize "anovulatory cycles".

[@katiemurphy3601]

@@michaelmicek That is true. It isn't a "true" period unless she ovulates. Breakthrough bleeding is due to excessive estrogen production, which causes the endometrium to grow beyond the point that it can sustain itself. So it usually occurs during anovulatory cycles, but a woman who is not tracking might just think she's having a period. That's a good point that just because a woman is bleeding that does not mean she cannot get pregnant at that time. Newer methods such as Taking Charge of Your Fertility (TCOYF) and Sensiplan do educate on and address anovulatory cycles.

[@racheln4309]

I’m not Catholic but my husband and I have been so blessed by avoiding contraception and learning NFP instead.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

I just cannot quite accept the logic since it is intending and achieving the same thing. If a couple only did it in the infertile part of the cycle without intending it then they have done nothing wrong because the act is not itself a problem and they have not intended a contraceptive act. The intention is the real problem. All I have found are couples who do not want kids (It is fine to use it to plan a family so I do not want a kid now and I will abstain for write a year and then after that year is up they can do whatever. In fact abstinence although difficult is a good thing.) and one case which did it for six years! That is just contraception. Abstinence is hard but why did you get married then? If it is difficult, I assume it is, then do not get married in the first place. Your wife is not an outlet for your lust and the primary end of sex is procreation (There are other ends.).

[@MrsAngloOrtho]

The Sinner's Guide to Natural Family Planning is a wonderful guide to the realities of NFP.

[@MelanieBarrozo-u7s]

I mean contraception is just any action you take to prevent pregnancy. NFP is a type of contraception…

[@Seethi_C]

NFP isn't preventing pregnancy, it's avoiding pregnancy, and avoiding pregnancy is clearly not contraception.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@Seethi_C It is avoiding children. It's intention is contraceptive.

[@Seethi_C]

@@johnnotrealname8168 Contraception is evil by it's object, not it's intention.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@Seethi_C Not wanting kids when doing it is sinful. It is inverting the intention of sex.

[@Seethi_C]

@@johnnotrealname8168 So it's not a sin of contraception, but a sin of intention? Is it also a sin to not use nfp but to still go into it with an attitude of not wanting kids?

[@patrickjade9349]

I got in a long conversation with someone at Franciscan about this. NFP is the minimum wage version of contraception. This is the least amount we can do before we get in trouble with the rules. To actively use NFP to have sex during infertile periods is not being open to life. It is saying the exact words of "we aren't ready yet." This is no different than marital contraception. People rationalize contraceptive behaviors to "but we're still open to life." Imagine doing NFP and lying about your disposition then becoming pregnant and feeling an ounce of guilt or upset because a kid was conceived. NFP used rightly is to target couples that have difficulty conceiving through tracking cycles. That is being open to life and being intentional with this information, otherwise there is no rational purpose to track a cycle without venturing into contraceptive thinking. I do like that you talked about chastity being tested and I can sympathize with how difficult this must be. As a man who has to practice chastity, I know it is difficult but it is possible. Those who have participated in chastity know it gets easier and it does have a payout. Remember the payout y'all. TLDR, don't want children, don't have sex.

[@patrickjade9349]

@Patz13 look, clearly this is triggering something in you. Listen, if you want to be pure you can. You dont need any law to tell you to dispose yourself to purity in thought. We aren't looking at the minimum of law. We are looking deeper at the picture and the war of the heart. In any instance you act in life and you act in death. You know that federal law sets a bare minimum for the states? States may increase standards above the bare minimum. We will do the same thing because who wants to toe the line of bare minimum? That's not what life is about. Give up your small part of yourself and God will give you a larger portion of yourself back

[@patrickjade9349]

@Patz13 The church doesnt know where your heart is, that's between you and God. You and your spouse. Still not clear for you? Look in the mirror. Because it's your heart. Protect your behaviors and uphold the dignity of life. If you never feel you are ready for kids, then yes, it would make rational sense to abstain until fertility is finished. If you aren't open to kids, then that's where the light shines.

[@patrickjade9349]

@Patz13 Seems like a deeper issue to me 👌. These things are why it would be problematic and symptomatic towards sinful couple behaviors, invalid marriage and invalid use of another built off lies at a foundational level. Seems pretty darn serious

[@patrickjade9349]

@Patz13 think about the possibility of using NFP poorly thinking you are justified, but your marriage is invalid because you aren't open to kids. And stop being intellectually prideful. It's quite disrespectful

[@patrickjade9349]

@Patz13 targetting NFP because you want to intentionally want to avoid children and have sex is the issue. That is contraceptive mindset. That I am attacking. NFP is not dogma kid, it can be critiqued. You on the other hand, need to grow up and look at the mirror. Your neuroticism and lack of charity is deplorable and it demonstrates your lack of understanding. You have displayed no value for life here. You can have all the NFP you want, but it will mean nothing because your heart is not in the right place. Its fruitless. You get the rules, but you dont get their purpose

[@t6v5c2]

Isn’t it true that NFP isn’t permitted but for special circumstances and with permission from a priest???

[@canthony5662]

@EJ Everlast can you further elaborate this, please?

[@carolinpurayidom4570]

Not necessarily a permission form but one should take spiritual advise from their spiritual director

[@theresasidrow6355]

I've been told "you have your hands full" more than once My reply: "HANDS full HEART full!"

[@justinward3218]

Jason’s cup is sitting on the edge of his book.

[@mirnacudiczgela1963]

Praise be to God for granting us openness to life. In fact my mother suggested us to use nfp as soon as we got married because of our PhDs. Of course we did not listen to her because in my opinion it is not a good enough reason. Am I right? Praise be to God I conceived eight months in our marriage and still did not obtain my PhD.

[@juliahart8593]

So instead of pursuing your dreams you chained yourself to a marriage and chose to get pregnant 8 months in rather than relying on any sort of remote birth control? Yikes

[@mirnacudiczgela1963]

@@juliahart8593 Those were her dreams, not mine. And it is none of your business.

[@arethmaran1279]

​@Julia Hart that is such a sad view of the world, 'you would rather submit yourself to a husband and children that will love you forever, instead of professors and bosses that view you as replaceable at best? Couldn't be me sis. 💅'

[@ekatrinya]

Anyone woman that uses the term "chained" when it comes to their family either married a really terrible, ungodly man or has simply never experienced the joy of having a family and just repeats the catchphrases of the Left that they try to brainwashed everyone with.

[@darcyexene804]

There's a chance you'll get pregnant using NFP and a chance you'll get pregnant while on the pill. How are both not open to life if you accept that fact, will have kids one day, and will never have an abortion?

[@maggie_codes]

The pill is bad because it doesn’t always prevent ovulation. The secondary effect of the pill is that the woman’s uterine lining becomes thin in order to prevent implantation. Preventing implantation causes the death of a child.

[@dooley5983]

Because when you use NFP, you sacrifice a moment of sexual desire with your partner because you want what’s best for them, not having kids till you’re ready. If you have kids anyway, then what a gift. If you use the pill, not only are you hurting your body with hormones in a dozen different ways, but you’re also engaging in sex without practicing that discipline. Lust does not end once two people get married, but blessed are you that regardless if you get pregnant, you’re ready to accept that responsibility.

[@dooley5983]

I like what they say in this episode. If it’s the same thing basically, just do NFP, and you will realize the difference.

[@AverageMED]

⁠@@dooley5983i get your argument but its a logical fallacy. You are saying that dont have sex during a certain moment bc you are avoiding the potential of kids- meaning you aren’t truly open to having kids. Im happy with nfp but a doe is a doe

[@dooley5983]

@@AverageMED no thats not what I’m saying. All marriages should be open to kids. The power of NFP is that you get to be intentional. The majority of women who get abortions are women who already have kids. There is a beauty in practicing temperance and wisdom in Marriage, but you’re right their are people that can have a contraceptive mentality, but as they Matt would say, and I agree, it is not contraceptive in nature anymore than abstinence is contraceptive in nature. If you think a doe is a doe, then we have to ask if we’re just using it contracetively. The couples the use NFP correctly are those that engage in sex, willing to accept that if they get pregnant they are going to happily raise that kid.

[@sergiosacay6609]

can you do a video on latin mass/the extraordinary form?

[@SensusFidelium]

Or we could trust Gods will & only use NFP as Pius XII stated it should be used only for

[@Josephmedcalf0]

Sensus Fidelium NFP is birth control and mortally sinful "For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial right there are also secondary end, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider SO LONG AS THEY ARE SUBORDINATED TO THE PRIMARY END (pro creation) and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved." - Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii (#59), December 31 1930 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXe2gqWBp9eEp9k

[@Josephmedcalf0]

Patz13 How am I a heretic?

[@Josephmedcalf0]

Patz13 No, I'm not a heretic or a cafeteria Catholic. I quoted Pope Pius XI as a source to prove NFP is contrary to Catholic teaching. You on the other hand haven't provided any source and just called me a heretic and a cafeteria Catholic with no proof. Do you not know that if you call someone a heretic you must have a reasonable grounds and provide evidence. If you're going to get fired up and angry that just proves your passions are dictating your response. I've stood up for The Church and I've done my duty and you now know NFP is mortally sinful and I've also provided a KZbin link. So now you can't say you were ignorant before Our Lord.

[@Josephmedcalf0]

Patz13 No, you are false again. To say NFP is abstinence is a cop out. For example if someone fasts they want to grow in the virtue of fasting. Virtue is based on habits, grace builds on nature. Now in the case of NFP the people who are "abstaining" they are not seeking to grow in the virtue of chastity but rather are waiting for the green light when conception is small. It is a sin of intention. Because they are going out of their way to avoid having children, that is why it is evil, because sexual intercourse primary purpose is the begetting of Children. Pope Pius XI number 54 "Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious." Further you raised number 53 to support you point on abstainence. And you are wrong again. And in fact number 53 absolutely destories a primary argument people use to justify NFP which is for financial reasons or children being a burden etc. "53. First consideration is due to the offspring, which many have the boldness to call the disagreeable burden of matrimony and which they say is to be carefully avoided by married people not through virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in matrimony when both parties consent) but by frustrating the marriage act. Some justify this criminal abuse on the ground that they are weary of children and wish to gratify their desires without their consequent burden. Others say that they cannot on the one hand remain continent nor on the other can they have children because of the difficulties whether on the part of the mother or on the part of family circumstances. 54. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good." Notice Pope Pius's word "Virtuous continence" according to the Catholic encyclopedia "Continence may be defined as abstinence from even the licit gratifications of marriage." NFP is not virtuous continence 1. Because you are engaging in sex and the definition of continence is the abstinence from the licit gratifications of marriage which would include sexual intercourse. 2. NFP primary goal is to avoid having children. Number 59 doesn't prove your point also because "Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth." It is far more likely that Pius XI was referring to physically sterile people ("certain defects") or those who have passed the menopause ("reasons of time"). Because the next line which you must have missed. Pius XI says that the secondary ends of marriage must be subordinated to the primary end (begetting children). "For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved." Now can one argue that NFP does subordinate the secondary ends of marriage to the primary end? Of course not, because the whole goal of NFP is to avoid having children. Number 56 "any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin." Further if you want to quote from the Anti Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI. They have no authority because they are apostates and outside The Church. Heresies of Paul VI kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXXQZGZul6ZsY80 Heresies of John Paul II kzbin.info/www/bejne/eXK0Y2qKhaaeqdU Heresies of Benedict XVI kzbin.info/www/bejne/qJyzmpSJZt9pjNU Vatican II Council of Apostasy kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIjWmKt5i76nd6s

[@Josephmedcalf0]

Patz13 no you are wrong, you should repent because I've given you enough proof NFP is mortally sinful. All you can do is hurl insults and that's because you're wrong. Final words from me because you're wasting my time and aren't interested in the truth. Take caution of Pope Pius XIs words "any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin." KZbin: Vaticancatholic to see how the Vatican II sect is not The Catholic Church but the end times counter church

[@eduardosandoval460]

My thoughts on NFP is being ok with children if they come they come and that’s amazing but using nfp to reduce the likelihood in that timeframe place like new couples early in their marriage

[@aisthpaoitht]

And that's different than using a condom...how?

[@panes840]

Can somebody please kindly explain what a married woman is to do if she discovers that after a pregnancy or two say, she has a medical condition that is potentially life threatening to either her and/or another baby? What is the advice under those circumstances? That is what happened to me 15 years ago. I have a misshaped uterus and my children born by ceaserian section. I decided to use a device called "persona " if i recall directly. I'm 52 now! It would measure my urine sample on a stick every day and would give me a green, amber, or red light. Now i ask this because i am a fallen protestant looking to return to Christ and potentially as a Catholic. I am now 8 years post menopause. Yes, i wemt through menopause early. Interestingly, i discovered that many, many years ago, such an age was normal, but that's a side note. Thank you. Appreciate some understanding here.

[@lizdelosa]

Contraception is preventing conception. There is nothing to prevent when there is no egg (infertile days). This is actually good because you develop a virtue of patience. And sex is even more exciting when you finally get together after the long abstaining period.

[@RickGrimes-tr3ug]

You're purposely avoiding the primary end of intercourse. End of Story

[@lorraine5876]

​@@RickGrimes-tr3ugIt's not the primary end. Marital intercourse is supposed to be both procreative AND unitive. It cannot always be procreative, but that doesn't diminish the unitive aspect. Artificial contraceptive on the other hand, removes both.

[@RickGrimes-tr3ug]

@@lorraine5876 wrong, the primary end is -procreation. Primary, not only , but primary, (Casti Cannubii)

[@lorraine5876]

​@@RickGrimes-tr3ug Intercourse can't always be procreative, unless you're of the belief that a married couple should only engage in intercourse during fertile periods with the goal of achieving pregnancy? Which isn't a belief held by the Catholic Church. Do you think intercourse outside of the fertile period renders marital intimacy less sacred?

[@patriot524]

​@@lorraine5876 You hit the nail on the head there. I've identified this too. If we want to take the conclusion that using NFP is bad because you are having sex during infertile periods, then you must say that you must use NFP to have sex only during fertile periods. Otherwise, you would be exercising in willful ignorance in not ensuring with every tool that the sex is "open to life."

[@stocktonking12]

Just because it’s more “Natural” does not mean it isn’t a form of contraception. How about trying abstinence if the family actually can’t afford a child at that time etc. We expect our kids to be chaste and disciplined but think that all goes out the window as soon as we marry???

[@truthnotlies]

So if a family can’t afford another child for say five years, the couple should have a sexless marriage for five years??? Lol

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@truthnotlies Yes. If you cannot afford it then pray and come together on it.

[@anniegray6277]

People have said the TV thing to us before, and we only have 3 so far 😂

[@limepiper3650]

I disagree, it is a natural form of contraception.

[@caleblagrange7164]

lime piper the point is to not conceive so yes it is contrary to conception: contraception

[@caleblagrange7164]

@Patz13 different yes. I am talking about the telos itself. You can use NFP to conceive but also to prevent conception, the latter is more common and is what people actually mean when they say NFP generally. As for the morality of the practice, yes HV allows for it in some cases, I never said otherwise.

[@caleblagrange7164]

@Patz13 Brother, there is no need to be angry. I simply affirmed OPs statement for those who might be confused. I explained that NFP to prevent pregnancy meets the dictionary definition of contraception. I believe that in some circumstances NFP is morally permissible. We are in full agreement brother.

[@caleblagrange7164]

@Patz13 Again: I feel like we have no substantive disagreement. What I said was only that nfp fits the definition of contraception from an etymological standpoint. See Merriam webster's definition of contraception: things that are done to prevent a woman from becoming pregnant. yes, there are medical procedures and drugs that are used as contraception and you can find descriptions of them online. Similarly, the word "fertile" has a common usage in phrases like "fertile soil" or "fertile business." The word "fertile" also has a medical usage meaning "able to reproduce." All I tried to do in my original post was show how it is reasonable to call nfp contraception. I am not arguing that nfp is wrong. Additionally, the word "some" includes the logical possibilities of "many" and even "all." If I say that some Romans are Italian I am correct, even though most and many Romans are Italian. I am not saying any of this to try to make you look like a fool or to "win" the argument. I am only trying to show you that we have been in agreement this whole time brother.

[@caleblagrange7164]

@Patz13 Brother, I feel the need again to say that I have no bad intentions towards you. As I explained with the fertility example, words can have somewhat different meaning in different contexts. If I state that "Ukraine has very fertile soil" I think most people would agree. Now one can object that this does not fit the medical definition of fertility since the soil of Ukraine cannot reproduce, but this seems like a strange objection. I don't believe that by saying Ukraine has fertile soil I am misleading anyone. If you are worried that some people might have been confused by my original comment then it is good that you replied brother. Our discussion makes it clear that I was not indicting nfp in all cases and our discussion will hopefully help others. it is true that I did not explicitly state that my original comment was "from an etymological standpoint." I thought the content made that fact clear but it is good that your follow up comments made it more clear for others. I will rehash my argument throughout this thread to hopefully make it clear that we agree and should not be angry with one another. -nfp fits the dictionary definition of contraception -The etymology of contraception makes it clear what the word means. -There are medical forms of contraception other than nfp which the church condemns. -There are circumstances under which the church teaches nfp is morally permissible

[@KethenGoesHam]

This is why only NFP of the Creighton model should be followed.

[@elizabeththibault8141]

How do you come to that conclusion?

[@KethenGoesHam]

@@elizabeththibault8141 cause it's not based on cycles it's based on mucus production. There's far less unknown variables.

[@nicksibly526]

Is NFP another name for the Billings method?

[@nicksibly526]

We use this method. It requires my wife and I to constantly discuss her fertility. We have four daughters and are happy with that. I think the main benefit of this method is that we are forced to talk rather than take sex for granted. This may be the key to why it is the endorsed option and why it is better for marriage. I won't lie though and say that it is all rainbows and butterflies; it can be really frustrating sometimes.

[@DamonOwens]

NFP (Natural Family Planning) is the broader name for ordering our sexual powers to God's plan for marriage and family life. NFP is two inseparable things: fertility intelligence and faithful parenthood. Fertility intelligence is knowing the specific biological markers of a woman's fertility window each cycle. Faithful parenthood is ordering our sexual intimacy to both the objective moral order (Love) and the subjective conditions of our family. NFP is where the biology of the body unites with the Theology of the Body. Billings Ovulation Method is one of the major and longest established *methods* of NFP. Hope that helps.

[@nicksibly526]

@@DamonOwens thanks

[@AnnulmentProof]

The sinful act of NFP is subverting the primary end. Avoiding fertility is pursuing secondary over primary. "Forbidden" per Casti Connubii 59.

[@AnnulmentProof]

@@jazanamarluc "avoiding fertility" is forbidden because this place is the secondary ends of marriage as primary.

[@PxlMrk]

@@AnnulmentProof call it an ad hominem argument all you want, but... gauging by your profile pic and the tone of your messages, and if you're even married, you're wife is either miserable or she turned you into this Agent Smith shell of a man. See you in purgatory brother. Remember to pray for me too.

[@AnnulmentProof]

@@PxlMrk do you think I'm wrong about something?

[@PxlMrk]

@@AnnulmentProof yes! Your attitude and your black heart.

[@AnnulmentProof]

@@PxlMrk if my attitude was different in my heart color was different, how would you know?

[@ultimouomo11]

NFP can only be used in grave circumstances. Examples: Physiological: some sort of medical condition that poses a threat to the mothers life. Sociological: if you lived in China where the mother would be forced to have an abortion. Psychological: If she’s had six kids in six years and the psychological stress is so great she needs a temporary, short reprieve in order to regain equilibrium. NFP can never be used to stop having children simply because husband and wife have taken it upon themselves and decided, “we’ve had enough kids”.

[@AnnulmentProof]

NFP violates nature by removing natural fertility from the act. Intrinsic evil. Forbidden.

[@7776ify]

I agree. This is the traditional teaching of the church. I've been looking for some church teaching/ documents on what you've said for a while. Would you be able to point me in the right direction? (There are a lot of sceptics who who believe only when you show them the proof)

[@ultimouomo11]

@@7776ify I would ask Fr. Ripperger. He’d be able to point you in that direction. Or look up the video on NFP by Fr. Ripperger. Maybe someone in the comment section could provide further info about documentation.

[@maggie_codes]

Do you have a reference for this list?

[@jessfahy7584]

@@7776ify kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2iUoZtupKiEd7c This was really enlightening and thorough.

[@anniedoke]

Natural Cycles

[@slick222]

NFP, a method used 98% of the time with the intention of avoiding pregnancy, is not contraceptive in spirit because the other methods are way more gross.

[@RickGrimes-tr3ug]

thats a really dumb take on that.

[@1Hope4All]

Too many people abuse NFP and in that case, NFP MAY turn into a sin. Newly married couples should not even use NFP in their new marriage. Be fruitful and multiply!

[@kathyalex778]

Nope, what if you are not financially ready

[@Naomi-bw5qs]

Nope sorry contraception is a must. There are non hormonal forms of birth control such as the copper iud. The ONLY way I would have tons of kids is if a had a nanny and a housekeeper. So I guess whomever I marry would have to be a millionaire 😂

[@evy684]

Oh please !!!