Piper PA-28 Year Model Changes

[@coriscotupi]

I did my IFR training in a PA-235. Often the missions would have four people on board: the student pilot, the instructor and other two student pilots also taking the IFR course and learning from observing the other student's IFR lesson. During one of those flights I was in the back, going over approach plates in anticipation of what was going to be done. We were IMC (in cloud), and suddenly the engine started sputtering, just about quitting. It took about 10 milliseconds for us three to kind of yell to the pilot in the left seat, "CHANGE TANKS! FUEL PUMP ON!" He did as told (not that he'd have to be told, but you never know) and the engine sputtered for a few more seconds and then roared on, as if nothing had happened. The student + instructor had forgotten to manage the fuel, were merrily flying along in one single tank, and let it run dry. Having the engine almost quit in IMC was one of my scariest moments flying.

[@spannaspinna]

Top notch instructor

[@SaltyPirate71]

I really enjoy your videos! I am confident that nobody at Piper, nor Cessna, know their product lineage as well as you. Watching your channel is very similar to "Jay Leno's Garage". Thank you for sharing your love of airplanes and wealth of knowledge. There are plenty of people doing the "buy this plane, it's perfect" routine and lots of flight instruction type videos, but you're the only one I know of who explains the nuances of model year variations and model evolutions. That's information that is fascinating to myself and can save people from mistakenly purchasing the wrong plane.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thank you. I try to include as much detail as possible without being boring.

[@RichardCampbell-cs7sr]

The PA-28-236 Dakota is a plane to strive for. The lower 2400 RPM redline takes a bit getting used to, but the plane is quiet, and performance is impressive... Fuel capacity was dropped from 84 to 72 Gals for some reason, but fuel management with two tanks instead of four much easier. Interesting and relaxed presentation. Thank you. Enjoyed it.

[@Captndarty]

I’ve heard from one A&P that you increase the pitch stop limits to 2,700 and get a 260hp Dakota. The engine, engine mount and firewall are all rated for that hp as they are the same as the Cherokee 6. He said just make sure you adjust it back prior to your annual🤣 Considering all of the Cessna 182 engine upgrade and mods it’s crazy there isn’t an STC for this. Can’t find any dark web info on someone actually doing this…

[@envitech02]

Mark is a walking encyclopedia on all things with wings. He even notices whether the indentation goes in or out. If I'm in the market for a light thing with wings, Mark is the goto guy. Best regards from Malaysia!!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

innies and outies, 1965.

[@jag12549]

Love your videos. Love the comparisons and examples, enjoy the talk on features. In the market for my first plane, and I have been devouring your videos

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thank you.

[@philbrammer3632]

Man I could listen to you teach anything and it would all go in. Relaxed with a bit of humour, and evidently youre not just parroting something you've read you clearly understand all the differences. Thanks for posting.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thank you. I try not to drag it out and use a TV voice, I just talk and edit. If I'm bored, you are bored.

[@N17634]

Excellent explanation of the differences in the various PA-28 models.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you liked it!

[@mitchschneringer]

Another very informative video. As a Cessna pilot, I’ve always found Piper nomenclature confusing, but you’ve done a great job explaining the PA-28 series. Many thanks Mark, I always enjoy your videos!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks!

[@marcustait869]

Can’t thank you enough for the time you take for these Mark.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks.

[@monrow11]

This is a really great video. These Cherokees are great little airplanes. Unsung hero’s in the aviation world. The further I get into my aviation career the more I realize how great they are.

[@pompanomike8704]

thank you

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

You're welcome

[@jimsmalleimb7709]

I had a 1967 Cherokee 140. Was a wonderful little plane.

[@rembpilot172]

Wow; this is my kind of channel, specific data, years, even serials and registration patterns are here. Thank you

[@stlflyguy]

The -1 has nothing to do with the fuselage, but solely the wing. The fuselage stretch happened somewhere around 1973 or 1974. The -720 in a Queen Air was an STC mod and not original IIRC. And I believe the term you’re looking for in lieu of “dented” is “corrugated.” Lots of crazy differences throughout the run. Great video!

[@waynealmond5598]

They are called pillow doublers they help stiffen a flat section of aluminum and make it more rigid

[@cliftonbrown911]

I think the Queen Air with the 720 were called Excalibur.

[@AussieAircraft98]

Top Video once again! Loving the content this channel keeps dishing out!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

It is our pleasure! Your comments help keep us motivated to make more!

[@josephsener420]

I have owned a 1980 236 for 13 years. I learned some new things today!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Those are great planes.

[@tedk2814]

I always look forward to your videos. I've loved planes all my life and trained in the Piper Warrior. Only flew a short time as I'm 71 now. Maybe you could answer a lifelong question, why don't Pipers have a second door? If I ever purchased a small plane, it would be a Cessna with two doors. One door is a pain and would be troublesome during an emergency exit,I think. Thanks so much Mark, Merry Christmas. Ted in Sebastian, Florida

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

I think the second door meant extra weight. Another reinforced wing-root and all the door structure etc. We bought a Sundowner with two doors and before I knew what I was doing, I got in the right side and scooted over only to see the "other door"

[@jameslake5241]

Another belter of a video, thanks Mark

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@FlyingNDriving]

2:40 that poor prop rod on the underside of the cowling never gets used. As a piper guy with time in many different "cherokees" I'll say this was well done

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

I know, if one side is all you need open, no need to prop it. :-)

[@cherokeeflyer9669]

After the first time you get hit in the head when the wind whips the cowl down, you’ll start using it every time.

[@Nord3202]

It keeps the top cowling corner screws from digging into the doors when you lay it over damaging paint. If there broke lay a shop rag to cushion it away.

[@jorgerefsgaard2522]

Thanks to you, Sir, for the instructive explanation about Piper models in the P.A.28!!!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Our pleasure!

[@ackack612]

This is one of Mark's vids that I will come back to every once and a while simply because it's so good. Gobs and gobs of info and well presented....Mark at his best. Thx again!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks.

[@sergeylipovetsky2216]

Great video about not-so -easy defined Piper model lineup. Would like to see non-turbo Dakota one day. I always flew Pipers but manage to find out few things in this video that I never new before, like spring-loaded ailerons or fiberglass tip tanks. Thanks for the great work.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks.

[@sergeylipovetsky2216]

@@skywagonuniversity5023 I'll come and visit you one day, I am in L36 / Rio Linda, Warrior II N39954.

[@helios1912]

@@skywagonuniversity5023 Mark--did the tapered wing change the handling? Performance?

[@wlbrobinson]

I have a lot of 79 turbo Dakota hours, what a great plane, great seats and quiet interior. The turbo will get you into the low 20k FL to catch some high tail winds on occasion.

[@bernhardecklin7005]

Excellent! As always, learning is easy because the narrator makes the effort to understand what people out there (like me) don't or can't know. Please don't take it personally, but you have to be British or American to rave about Hershey chocolate...even if the comparison with the wing shape fits perfectly, of course. Best regards from Switzerland, where Hershey chocolate would have as much chance on the market as the Boulton-Paul Defiant had against Luftwaffe fighters :)))

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Hershey is not very good chocolate com[pared to Lindt or Cadburys. It has a lot of wax in it so that it does not melt in the heat here. I have friends bring the real stuff over from Europe when they visit.

[@cavok1984]

That's a great explanation. I love the Warrior. Such good memories

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Great planes.

[@JoeCoolPilot]

Excellent! I thought I knew the Cherokee line, but learned quite a bit! Thank you!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you liked it!

[@turnerator21]

Hey, great job keeping all those numbers straight in your head!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

They are not always correct.

[@bobdennis7136]

Thanks for the tips. I’ve had cracks in the same places. Also enjoyed seeing the baffle mounting components. My 140 has the split nose bowl cowling that was installed by a previous owner and it makes serving the engine sooo much simpler. I highly recommend it!

[@ditto1958]

Back in the early 70’s when I was a young lad I collected up all the brochures I could find on light planes. I don’t remember why, but I always preferred Cessna to Piper. My best friend liked Pipers- I think he thought the low wings were cooler. I’ve flown in Cessna planes but never a Piper. Today if you gave me an airplane I’d be thrilled with either brand.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

When I was a kid and I drew a kids plane it was a Piper Archer before I knew what a Piper Archer was. It just looked like one.

[@Wpilot673]

Awesome information. I thought I was very familiar with the Cherokee airframe until I watched this. well done !

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad it was helpful!

[@earlelkins9086]

Sorry I'm late, but another very informative class from Skywagon University. I started in a Tomahawk, 1982. Never flew another piper, but I always admired the 235's performance. Thanks Mark!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Welcome back!

[@earlelkins9086]

Thankyou 😁

[@bernardanderson3758]

Mark I love those 180/ 185 in the hangar but the 235 Piper is always been my favorite low wing aircraft

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

It is a very good airplane.

[@joelwyttenbach2772]

Thanks Mark I always enjoy your videos and all the information. Your doing a great job!!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you like them!

[@bryanpelton6646]

This is an awesome video! Ive flown the Warrior II, III, and Archer II. I never really knew the exact differences. Cheers M8!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you liked it!

[@docpalazola491]

Owned a '73 Piper Cruiser (140); traded up for a '75 Warrior. All the difference in the world with the tapered wing...very easy to fly. However, landing on a hot day, I would float down the runway for an extended amount of time. Great video explaining the Cherokee lineup.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks.

[@Nord3202]

The early Cherokee 150, 160, 180 had baggage doors with no 3rd side window and the metal cowling. Some very early ones had no step. Also the 73 & 74 Cherokee PA 28 180 had a longer Hersey bar wing with the longer fuselage & wider stabilator. They where called Challenger in 73 & Archer 74.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Those Challengers and pathfinders are the oddballs in the sequence.

[@chester8420]

This is your best video yet! Thanks!

[@chriskiwi2601]

Hi Mark. Most interesting. Flown a few different piper models and not been aware of some of the details you mentioned.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@thewatcher5271]

A Great Youtorial For Anyone Looking To Buy. Thank You For Sharing.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks.

[@ph5915]

Huh! I never knew what that '-1' signified! Thanks, Mark! I had 100 hours in my brothers 1965 Cherokee 180C years ago. The 180 was a neat niche against Cessna, right between the 172's and 182's of that era. It was a bit faster and carried more than a 172, maybe not as much as a 182, but more economical with just the 4 cyl O-360 and less maintenance with fixed prop. I ended up buying my 172, I just liked the easier in&out with the doors on each side, plus that particular Cherokee was a maintenance nightmare, but when most things were working, it wasn't a bad machine!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks for watching.

[@jsarkozy]

really enjoyed this video, thank you! (I fly a 1976 Warrior with the O-320...love it)

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@bernhardecklin7005]

Oups, sorry I should have listen to the end...you just answered my question with regarding to the Saratoga.

[@garyprince7309]

Good video. However the 3rd window was not part of the (1) designation. The (1) designates solely the tapered wing. Although other tweaks were made as well like the stretch.

[@davidpearn5925]

In the 60s I learnt to fly in a Musketeer and when I went back in the mid 90s I did a few hours in a warrior. I simply couldn’t believe just how much climb performance the Piper had over the Beech …….you could do literally 5 min circuits in it because it climbed so quickly. That wing was amazing.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

The Tapered wing on the later Cherokees is a good wing. I flew a Warrior over the Dixie fire TFR at 12,500 feet last summer.

[@muhammadsteinberg]

WHEW!!!...My heads about to explode! Fantastic explanation as always! Piper could have done much better with the names. Great planes, but a mess in identifying what is what.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks. I do not know where it all is stored in my head.

[@Conn653]

My Pvt check ride was in a 1961 PA-22-108, the Piper Colt. The Piper Colt was, basically, a stripped down version of the Tri-Pacer. 2 seats and no flaps 🙂

[@Nord3202]

I had 3 friends with PA22 108 Colts. They where all Metalized by Al Snider at Skycraft in Pennsylvania.

[@Airplanepilot501]

Great video, I learned a lot!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@hugowood2784]

The "transition planes" like pathfinder I believe were long fuselage still with Hershey bar wing not short fuselage with tapered wings as you mentioned.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Yes, one or the other. I confuse those.

[@cray0308]

Very nice information. Subscribed

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks for the sub!

[@williamkumley5135]

Nice vid, just saw the 235 added to your site a few days ago. If only I had a slightly higher budget....

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks. It's good to talk about the differences when several of a type are here.

[@bernhardecklin7005]

Maybe I missed that: What do you think, roughly how much can the tapered wing compensate for the more powerful engine of a 6-cylinder Piper due to aerodynamic advantages?

[@Finder245]

Is there a difference in the cabin widths at the front seats between the 235 and a Warrior? I have a lot of experience in Warriors and Archers, but I’ve never been in an older Cherokee.

[@DWBurns]

Piper missed out on make a sports sedan with the Cherokee series. There needed to be a PA28R-235/236. A 540 powered Arrow is a dream of mine.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

That would be a great plane a retractable 235 A mini Saratoga.

[@ilpuntiglione]

True, but there are Turbo Arrows. Aren't they nice machines? (I have always been biased towards the efficiency of a turbo, at least a "turbo normalized")

[@RichardCampbell-cs7sr]

Would be nice but the wheel covers on the Dakota are quite efficient. Not sure if the retractable gear warrants the added expense.

[@SVSky]

Great vid. Maybe I can convince my CFI to bring his Super Decathlon up.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Yes, Let's arrange it and maybe we can go upside down in it.

[@wlbrobinson]

Good Video, for those Cherokee fans the best reference book out of print is called the Indians, it explains a great amount of detail, for example the 140's were almost all 150 HP. It makes ramp spotting easy.

[@bernhardecklin7005]

Are there 235 like the one you show with tapered wings? If yes, to what effect to the performances?

[@PARTner91]

Mark, you had it right at 10:30 … 180 = Challenger and 235 = Pathfinder. I’d heard the reason for abandoning the Challenger name was legal pressure from Dodge since they used (still use) the same name for a car. Don’t know if that’s true though.

[@footetoes183]

I think the 235 became the Charger for one year before becoming the Pathfinder and the 180 was the Challenger for one year before becoming the Archer. Maybe Chrysler sued Piper so they changed the names? Also, I believe the Charger and Challenger brought a wider (Hershey bar) wing span as well as lengthened fuselage.

[@owenbock4458]

@@footetoes183 you are correct. Challenger/charger/pathfinder had the longer fuselage, wider Hershey bar wing and the wider horizontal

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Yes, there was some confusion in those years.

[@sb-cg3zq]

Informative... Thanks

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Glad it was helpful!

[@freedombound2215]

You should do a video on the Grumman AA5 series - Traveler, Cheetah, Tiger. If you get one for sale (reasonable) in good condition - please let me know.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

If the opportunity presents itself, we'll do just that.

[@lcprivatepilot1969]

I quite possibly missed it, but when was the 3rd window added … what model and/or year? Thanks Mark!

[@kennymcwilliams8972]

Wow - who knew! Nice job.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks!

[@ackack612]

Enjoyed the video, as always. My question is this....what's lurking under the car cover? Something good I'm thinking.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Under the car cover is a restored 1959 MGA Coupe with an 1800 cc MGB engine in it. It will be for sale soon I think.

[@ackack612]

@@skywagonuniversity5023 I was right! It had to be something cool and it is. That long hood stretching out in front ...Mark, I hope you'll take us for a drive at some point!

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

@@ackack612 maybe I should drive it around a bit although it is not a plane.

[@ackack612]

@@skywagonuniversity5023 If indeed you're thinking of selling, no better way to incite a bit of excitement than to include in a SU video. Those airport access roads you have, a couple of WOT runs, are you kidding, viewers would love it! You'll have multiple offers within hours.

[@Sku11Leader]

Would like a video on the Arrows. I'm in the market and their really aren't that many videos on the Arrows family as a whole that I can find.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

We have a 1969 Arrow coming in soon. I'll do a video on it.

[@srvafool]

Old video, so you might not see this, but you said the 180 and 235 share the same airframe. Why is the VNE different on the two planes?

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Good question. Not sure about that.

[@matthiaszammit7232]

Is there a PA-28-180 with straight wings and an extra window (3 side windows on each side and 2 windshields) please? Thanks

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Yes. One year of 180 and the same year of 235. They were 1973 or 1974 and were called the Pathfinder and Challenger. Three window long fuselage but the square wing.

[@briank3754]

Thank you, these Pipers have far too many models. I will be purchasing one however. I personally prefer the low wing. Flew the Seneca for my Multi training and loved it. Unfortunately, the budget doesn’t allow for a multi, but a 235 would be perfect. I have been looking at the Archers/PA 28s and have not seen any six cylinders.

[@Gualdemar]

EXCELLENT!!! Thanx

[@aolson8283]

It wouldn't be a Skywagon video, without Marks phone going off... 😆

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Ah, awkward. yes, you noticed. Sorry.

[@aolson8283]

@@skywagonuniversity5023 it's quite funny! It's your trademark now.

[@bobdennis7136]

Sorry, posted the last comment to the wrong video. But, I do enjoy all your airplane reviews😄

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

No worries, Bob! Glad you enjoy our reviews!

[@rongordon1361]

Does it have a autopilot

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

A basic one.

[@lanceg.8458]

There are NO short fuselage tapered wing Cherokees! They actually got longer fuselages and KEPT the Hershey bar wings for a few years. The 180 became the Challenger (which had a Hershey Bar wing that was lengthened!) then Archer (1975) which ALSO HAD A HERSHEY BAR WING. In 1976 the Archer got a semi-tapered wing... Archer II- The 235 became the CHARGER, then PATHFINDER (the plane I own) and then DAKOTA. You also stated that all Hershey bar Cherokees have a certain size tail,.. There are two different sized STABILATORS for Cherokees with Hershey Bar wings. When the Fuselage was stretched, they got the bigger stabilator excepting the Arrow which got the bigger stab only when the semi-tapered wing was added (Arrow 3) not when the fuselage was lengthened. It's confusing I know.

[@andydurbin2962]

If you want to understand the configuration of the various PA-28 models then TCDS 2A13 may be a better resource than this video. PA-28-180 Archers had the longer fuselage, increased wing span, and increased tail span for serials 28-7305001 through 28-7505260. I have owned, for over 20 years, one of the last 100 built with this configuration.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

This kind of comment is exactly why I made this video. 99% of people will not look at a TCDS and run serial numbers. They want an overview and I gave them, one. It is hard to spot a serial number as it flies over or you see it at 100 yards and no-one has a TCDS on then at a random airport where they see a plane they want to know what it is. Hence the macro ID on fuselages and wings etc.

[@CACTUS48]

The first 1975 Warriors had the Balanced Ailerons for 1 year...

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

OK Thanks. And were they always the flat skins?

[@ThePhobicFlyer]

Great video. I didn’t know the wing differences between the aircraft type ending in a 1. How do you remember all that info!?

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

It rubs off after a few years around these planes.

[@gpsteel4220]

So was my 2006 Saratoga a 301 or a 300 Lance? How do you pronounce L A N C E? Just kidding; I remember. It is easy to get confused though, especially with the PA 28s. You do a great job Mark, but its even more confusing than when my wife told me she was leaving me for a WOMAN. They got the Saratoga. Would you actually want to do a video on a 195 if I can get up there with it? LMK Geoff Paul

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Geoff. I have a 195 for sale, but I cannot fly it because it is not insured and I am not very knowledgeable about them. It would be great to have you bring it up here so we can do a video on yours. Thank you. Mark 530 306 4648.

[@RaceMentally]

My 67 has same dash panel fyi

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Thanks.

[@Jeffopar]

This video was great apart from one glaring mistake. Hershey chocolate is not delicious, its nasty. 🤣

[@tpsu129]

Turn. Your. Phone. Off. This is the 2nd video with your phone going off.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Don the Camera Guy here. We can't turn off our phones, because we are both running businesses from them. We could stop, re-shoot the footage, and hope they don't ring again during the shoot, but that takes more time than the minor annoyance of having a phone ring. There are times, which don't get aired in our videos of course, where we have to stop, take the call, and then start over. Momentum is lost on those shots. The calls you see are calls we can ignore. We hope you'll continue to watch our videos and that you'll excuse our phones.

[@tpsu129]

@@skywagonuniversity5023 I meant ringer. You’ll still feel the vibration but it won’t interrupt the shot. The same thing happened when you did the Mooney video. It took him 2 attempts to shut it off.

[@smhmusic]

Pay attention… There WILL be a test later.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

OK test time. What year do the control surfaces bumps stick out.

[@zekemitchell8404]

The early 140s and 180s had a baggage door.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Early 140's do not have baggage doors.

[@wickwilkinson4208]

Sorry, what? I thought there was a 260 and 300 Cherokee 6.

[@Captndarty]

A Six is not a PA 28 which was the scope of this video🤦🏻‍♂️

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

Also, What I meant is that there was not a 261 Cherokee Six, Only a 260. But there was a 181, 301 etc. Sorry that was not clear.

[@dhmack]

-140 has 150 horsepower so “the number” is not always horsepower.

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

In that one case yes.

[@bernardanderson3758]

I can haul 3 200 pound passengers and still be within CG limits

[@skywagonuniversity5023]

That is a lot of beef.