PISTON POSITION DURING SPARK IGNITION IN CRANK DEGREES!

I WILL TRY TO EXPLAIN PISTON MOVEMENT/POSITION DURING IGNITION FROM OLD SKOOL TO NEWER ENGINES. SHOWING WHERE GAINS COME FROM IN POWER AND EFFICIENCY.
My first video in 2 weeks! It has been scorching hot here in the West (las Vegas) with very dry heat hovering at around 117*F and avoiding the garage most of the day and working only very late at night.
This place can kill you before you can even know it ! lol

[@Bbbbad724]

Thank you Ben, my friend in Lancaster, Tommy M told me that anything that you tell me is like a cheque that I can cash at any bank, that you know both old and new. And whether my improvement ideas are correct and workable. I appreciate such a blessing!

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks appreciate your support! I miss Palmdale and Lancaster and all my friends there!

[@edsmachine93]

Very interesting topic Ben. I know from running Big Block Mopar, i.e.440 where quench is none existent and the piston below the deck making things worse what I learned years ago about running more timing, up to 42°. Solid performance and others would disagree with this practice. But with good heads, compression and the right cam timing. The need for timing changes alot. And importantly, the low and mid lift flow of the cylinder heads is so important to the volume of air fuel into the cylinder is so important. In other words something has to happen before the plug fires off. Anyways great topic, thanks Ben. I did not mean to ramble on. Take care, Ed.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Ed, thanks for your comment sir appreciate the feedback very much. With that said, some piston manufacturers have raised piston crown to try to mimicked some kind of quench action on the B/RB heads and it seem to work like what you have found out! 42* is never an exception on open chamber quenchless heads and today Mopar aftermarket heads comes with a quench chamber except for those seeking the original configuration that is ok as long as like yourself knows what to do and how to set them up!

[@vrm86gt]

Totally makes sense Ed, if you're going to fire the plug real early, get as much air charge in early as possible! Good call!

[@Bbbbad724]

I use the quench character of my heads to make the most of the event, .038 with the smallest valve and overlap energy to yank the intake charge without losing charge. Ford FE engine 4.153x 3.784 with a roller cam at 245@.050 on both sides and.600 lift. I am hoping that this will work well with a cut on the plug side around the intake valve. I want 2.19 intake 1.6 exhaust and the 3 angle intake single exhaust.

[@Trev-fl1oe]

Thankyou for sharing mr Alameda always look forward to your posts just makes me smarter thankyou. Peace

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks Trev.

[@matthewtucker2806]

Great tech video on ignition timing Ben. I enjoyed all the great info. High Compession and air density, how it effects the amount of gap on plugs. I will watch these more than once. Ive been super busy with family stuff and been tryn to work on the Drag car , making progress. Parts have been trickling in. Good to hear from ya brother. Thanks for showing us the way buddy. Hooah

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Been hibernating in the heat hiding in the bedroom because the heat is too much! How is the weather there?

[@johnkraft7461]

Talk about the devil in the detail ! Fascinating explanation Ben, many thanks 🙏

[@GrandPitoVic]

Awesome video brother. I really enjoyed the way you explained timing.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks!

[@Hjfvvdst]

That's a great visual on timing, quench and crank angle ect. Thanks again Ben. I bought a set of TEA tfsr heads they liked 28 degrees of timing. They worked really well. Can you make a video on headers size step lengths collector fire cones ect? Maybe you already have. Oh and effects.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks for tuning in Steve! Anyway I will try to do an exhaust segment and that should also be a good info video. TFS "R" is my favorite for big inch street/race combination and I find them the most impressive among semi affordable heads out there as you also found this out.

[@richdouche8253]

I think another note on old school heads requiring more advance on timing, is also that older fuel didn't burn as fast as modern gas does. Considering old iron head muscle cars had 11:1 static street compression from the factory, and new aluminum heads dissipate heat better, modern aluminum heads can bump pump gas compression up around 12:1. Just have to get your A/F correct, "fatter" than before, and because fuel burns more efficiently, most modern builds require a notch less advance on timing as well, so burn is all done by 15° ATDC. The most important factor overall with old school or modern heads is to keep cranking compression less than 200 to minimize detonation/preignition issues. 190 seems about ideal. Sorry... Tired.... Rambling. Great video!

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks Rich for your comments. I forgot to include that -200 cranking pressures and I think I mentioned that on one of my videos and thank you for the reminder. Todays heads superiority shows up on those small chamber and effective design which gives them a leg up no doubt about it.!

[@bobgyetvai9444]

What i like Best about you Ben is the tech you share doesnt Care whoose name is on the valve cover . Its pure Development Science . Yes sometimes you apply it to a particular Brand but thats really Not the Point . A wholely analitical mind thats used is what you express better than most everyone today . Reminds me of Smokey Yunick alot and thats a mouthfull to say . Love what you share . I dont paint my engines blue either so trust this sincerity . Hats Off buddy !!!

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Appreciate your comment sir and thank you!

[@wizardshome9686]

Great Hi-Tek information Ben Generating high swirl is very important - thus having a swirl meter on the flow bench is a good investment Thanks for sharing

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Yes sir and the innovator for the swirl and tumble meter is a good friend of mine and had the patent for many years. I do not know if it still holds...

[@robertheymann5906]

Wow...! Thx again Ben

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks Robert!

[@xxkingslayemxxgamer5553]

Ben I bet they hate to see you show up at the track with those fast Ford's

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks for the kind words and humbled immensely sir. One time I first showed up at a track with 4 mustangs all running deep in the nines in the 1/4, all street driven and the track announcer freaked out and came down from the tower! He said he never seen one shop show up with these strong streetcars that blew their minds! lol

[@79beans347]

Glad to see a new vid. I was wondering lastnight if I missed any of your videos because I havent seen any but I hadnt. Its like u knew I was looking so you put one out 😄 Thanks . Keep them coming and if u have a set of 331 pistons u would sale let me know. Im building up a budget engine with lots of your tricks 💪😁

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Yes I have been MIA for almost 3 weeks hiding from this excessive heat and it is worse in my garage! lol So I am working inside the house and should post another short video in a few hours.

[@patrickmarcello5103]

Love to see a new video mate, thanks for the upload!

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks as well and I am glad this video is resonating with a lot of viewers.

[@jamesford2942]

Thanks Ben for the visual of what is going on with piston position. I'm working on a 318 LA with the 302 quench chambers. I have been visualizing this very thing in my head. I am going with the taller Keith Black pistons and zero or near zero decking the block. Stock shim head gaskets are .020 thick and Cometic are .028 thick. This is going in a 4x4 Dodge truck so I am trying to keep the torque down low. I'm working on cam choice right now.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

On a torque engine do not be afraid to advance the cam while taking note of your maximum lift! I had much success doing it this way specially if the cam is on the slight big side for that beautiful radical cam sound at idle!

[@bobwhite4344]

very interesting info.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Glad you liked it

[@stephenhans189]

Missing the show down at sun down. In my GN AND MUSTANG❤

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Those where the awesome years of modern muscle power!

[@dalelockett2619]

Excellent info, Ben! Don't know if you knew this already, but the info you gave in this video is matching up to the optimum power stroke crank positioning that Ford used to optimize this SBE Mod Motor 4.6L 3V V8 in NA form for TQ generation (10* ATDC using the Ford-given OEM cam's .006" lift adv dur cam EVO timing at VCT 0* of 80* BBDC......this matches the leading power stroke crank throw timing of 80* BBDC that sets the following crank throw coming into the same power stroke cycle w\ max cyl pressure generated from optimized ignition timing at 10* ATDC). Using your given total spark ignition\fuel burn time in crank degrees (6* + 25* = 31*) info & counting back from 10* ATDC, comes out to 21* BTDC theorical ignition. When I optimized the total WOT spark timing used w\o cyl knock using VCT cam retard timing (8* retard) to match up my Lunati VooDoo #21270700 cam's .006" lift adv dur cam EVO timing @ VCT 0* of 88* BBDC to the 80* BBDC crank throw timing, it came out at 19.5* BTDC........only 1.5* off your given info & in between the 18*-20* BTDC range that Ford came to...........quite the agreement if I must say so........ So, this result shows me that the Ford engineer's work also agrees w\ yours thus is verification of the optimum crank angle for TQ generation...........optimum crank angle for optimum TQ output off ignition\fuel burn time is at 10* ATDC thus a 10* optimum window (5* thru 15* ATDC). I cut this down to a 4* window (8* thru 12* ATDC) since I have VCT to use to stay within this tight crank position window that I chose across the entire power band...............engine picked up quite noticeably on TQ output (had set all this up prior off 17* ATDC\73* BBDC power stroke crank throw positioning off a HPTuners tuning training tutorial recommendation.......gained an avg of 13-28 lb-ft of EBTQ across the board w\ VE% also increasing by approx 6% avg when I advanced all current VCT cam retard timing map settings by 7* to line up to 10* ATDC\80* BBDC power stroke crank throw positioning........thus the ECU thru TM is optimizing the engine displacement's TQ generating output by crank throw positioning timing thru the camshaft's .006" lift adv dur seat-to-seat EVO timing when matched up thru VCT usage. All my before\after numbers came out of my HPTuners VCM Scanner datalogging done on Camino del Rey, Mexico from VCT setting changes made using HPTuners VCM Editor software. You da MAN! 👍👊

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks Dale! Glad you look into these details and cross check my presentation which I appreciate because there is nothing worse in any technical sight to give out inaccurate information or misleading information. I pride myself to truly understand what is going on with an open mind and careful analysis of events. Thanks again sir.

[@dalelockett2619]

@@benalamedaracing2765 No problem, Ben...................I picked all that up listening to you thruout these KZbin videos you're putting out........thus is why I take your info seriously & I'm really not trying to prove\disprove anything you say.........I'm just trying to implement it. It just so happened that from doing this & at the same time also implementing Ford's work I found thru modeling their given cam .006" lift adv dur cam timing info for the OEM camshaft that matched the crankshaft's crank throw degrees (knowing that the given norm is to use crank degree timing to ID\match cam event degree timing to the piston position within the cyl bore) that Ford determined the optimum crank angle for max TQ output from an engine's displacement is at 10* ATDC, both Ford & your work came into natural agreement. From an engineering perspective, if 2 different constants (pump gas ignition\fuel burn time as well as crank throw position of a cross plane crankshaft setting the piston position relative to TDC within a cyl bore) come into alignment & since they're both a constant, they'll consistently repeat the alignment............then these properties of motion verifies both constants as being true......pure & simple IMHO. This type of basic foundational info is IMHO what should be sought after.........if making power is what is desired & in its purest form is optimized\made in NA configuration.......then everything else (nitrous, FI, etc) will expound from this base & become very easy to reproduce.......regardless of the cross planed crank V8 engine design in question. This same info then will also make tuning 1 of these computer controlled VVT\VCT equipped V8 engines much easier to do & be consistent with.........without having to throw mud against a wall to then see what sticks (the guesswork side of tuning)....... So, thanks again for all you do! 👍👊

[@dalelockett2619]

@@benalamedaracing2765 Hey Ben............just giving an update on this topic. After going back & making sure that I had my VCT cam timing dialed in optimally (used the cam IVO\EVC OL triangle by lining up the CL of the OL triangle to the crank TDC then swung the cam timing in 2* increments both advance etard of TDC to determine where true OL CL is at based off the cam lobe design......will show the highest VE....in Ford lingo this is called "air load" which will align w\ the highest MAF readings per RPM......this now has the other 2 valve events--EVO & IVC--optimized for max TQ output as the cam manuf designed to use w\ this VE......learned this from reading Billy Godbold's new book on moving valve events using VVT\VCT from a tuning perspective) & A\F accurately optimized during WOT, I then ran spark timing tests to see where\when my engine would stop making power.......found engine stopped making\increasing power at 20.11* BTDC........also w\o setting off knock to boot (running E10 91oct pump gas)! Again, this result I got is even more in agreement & verifies w\ your given optimal ignition\fuel burn in crank degree rate of 31*-35* total (at 21* BTDC thru 10*-15* ATDC crank timing during the compression\power stroke transition) on my SBE 4.6L 3V. Also this comes into alignment w\ info I read from Kevin Cameron's articles stating rule of thumb that optimal ignition\fuel burn rate is approx double the ignition time in BTDC (example: 21* BTDC doubled is 21* ATDC or 42* total) w\ peak cyl pressure (the most important part) occurring around 11* ATDC crank degrees into power stroke (you state 10*-15* ATDC crank degrees for peak cyl pressure)..........again, all this is verification of what you've stated in this video as valid & good. Folks, you need to listen to this man! 👍👊

[@stephenhans189]

I've had both from stock to ten seconds cars both have pros and cons.❤❤❤❤❤❤🚔

[@benalamedaracing2765]

There will always be exceptions no doubt!

[@Jvcomet]

Thanks for sharing

[@tobbystransmissions6046]

Thanks Ben

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Thanks Tobby!

[@dalewesley6172]

Yep it's 533 am in osoyoos BC 🗽🗽🗽🗽

[@alltherpm]

So locking distributer at say 38 degrees even at idle, that's got to b hard on engine cause piston speed works with advance? Thanks sir, always good to learn more, to make engine run its best

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Surprisingly that is what I thought before years ago! However, with the throttle closed even with that much advance the pistons isn't as loaded down as we think because there is hardly any intake column charge coming in so it really does not harm it! Specially with big camshafts and this is best when you have a high stall converter and or low gears in the trans/rear end! Remember on performance engines most ignition advance are all in by 2000-2500 rpms and if you have let us say a 2500 rpm stall converter it really would work without issues...

[@cuda6496]

What is the V groove and you have a video about it? Appreciate all the information you are giving in your videos!!!

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Video coming soon a full explanation on its effectiveness in making power and better efficiency street or full race!

[@vrm86gt]

Ben, on a 11:1 347 with twisted wedge, n/a should I tighten plug gap from stock spec, running stock ignotion also.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

I think max @ .042 is where the widest you can run without any ill effects. It has been a while I have run street compression so it figures i would not go above this number of plug gap.

[@vrm86gt]

Thank you Ben! @@benalamedaracing2765

[@williamzoom]

Ben whatever happened to the Kaufmann road race/drag race car?

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Somebody called me last year and gave me details and pictures of a KPI racecar with my name still on the door! lol He wanted to buy it because he said it is part of the second musclecar revolution of the mid 80's and early 90's. Never heard from him again maybe he bought it restored and kept it in some barn somewhere. In short he just wanted me to confirm that it was indeed the car I drove during those days... :)

[@waynecera4422]

combustion is silent, that shuts down the know alls.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

Interesting in how it is quiet when you have harnessed energy thru igniting with enough force (creating some kind of combustion) in a confined space without making noise? I like to know how you came with the conclusion of silent energy...

[@zachary8433]

*Promosm*

[@joe-hp4nk]

Sorry Ben, you lost me. But that's ok, I'll use trial and error.

[@benalamedaracing2765]

I was concerned about that and this is why I posted and tried to make it as simple as possible for others to follow. Thanks as well for watching.

[@joe-hp4nk]

@@benalamedaracing2765 When I set my initial timing I first use a vacuum gauge for maximum vacuum then back it off a little. If the total is within reason ie 34 - 38 I'm good. I use light springs on the mechanical to get total all in by 2500rpm.

[@frankkoppen7281]

How does cam timing effect this? like 100* -vs- 108* Int. centerline. postion same cam ?

[@benalamedaracing2765]

It should not make much of a difference because timing requirements are dictated by compression and chamber effectiveness. This said it can change things if the cam is advance or retarded way beyond normal positions.