Plato, Phaedo | Misanthropy and Misology | Philosophy Core Concepts

[@FeelingShred]

People are abused and the abusers get away with it every time, that is what creates it.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Not according to Plato - and that's whose concept the video is about

[@Dunge0n]

@@GregoryBSadler Plato's wrong. According to me.

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@Dunge0n Well, who cares what's according to you?

[@Dunge0n]

@@GregoryBSadler Probably not Diogenes.

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@Dunge0n Yep. Or me

[@wallykaspars9700]

Thanks for the quick lecture. It's tough to find much about misanthropy on youtube. For years I've considered myself a misanthrope. I find it hard to hate individuals, but I despise society as a whole. Nietzsche's social criticisms appealed to me very much.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Misanthropes actually hate individuals as well, so you might not be one if you don't

[@Simon-vh5bq]

@@GregoryBSadler Not all of them hate. The hate thing is a very simplistic explanation to a most complex conception of humanity in the mind of the misanthrope . Let humans hate themselves, because is what they best do, to the point of destruction. In my opinion, a misanthrope does not hate humans, but sees humans as despicable creatures that must be avoided at all cost. To hate is for humans. Misanthropes just let their humanity behind, just like the narcissist does, but the difference is that misanthropes do not create a false self, they remain authentic.

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@Simon-vh5bq "In my opinion" is doing a LOT of work there. No idea why you thought you ought to chime in here 8 years later, but maybe reconsider before doing it again

[@GregoryBSadler]

moving on to one of Plato's greatest dialogues -- here's a key lesson that at first appears only a digression

[@MrMarktrumble]

thank you

[@andress4780]

Gregory B. Sadler i'm in awe at your patience with the majority of the comment section which seemingly didn't watch the video at all. great video by the way

[@HippieChick9]

Misanthropy - hatred; distrust of people Misology - hatred; distrust of logos (reasoning, account, argument…) Same basic process: x Undue trust - not based on understanding x Disappointment x New object of trust x General stance of mistrust

[@jamesmorgan9258]

Wow. That thing you said about the misology of people who make a lot of arguments is a perfect description of what happened to me when I joined a debate club. I could make a persuasive case for anything I wanted and eventually, I started feeling scornful of people who actually had beliefs about things. Glad to be through that phase of my life.

[@lucaszech4070]

On the topic of misanthropy, I think where this (not yours, but Plato's) analysis of the reasons for misantrhopy falls short, is that there are plenty of very rationaly reasons I, as a misanthrope can think of, to come to the conclusion that humans are a force for evil on this planet. Things like war, our inclination to solve any ideological, religious, territorial, economical dispute with violence; greed, the fact that the luxurious whims of some people result in the suffering of others; the consequences of human activity on the planets eco-systems, and so on and so forth. In my opinion these are perfectly rational reasons to think that maybe humanity is indeed something bad, something evil. Does every human being qualify as evil? No, of course not, but what most people are guilty of is apathy, of conformism, just not caring enough. What I think, and what I've seen others point out, is that there are two distinct varieties of misanthropy, that I like to call "rational misanthropy" and "personal/emotional misanthropy". The latter of the two is what The Phaeo describes in this digression. I am no expert on any of this, these are just my personal views, as a misanthrope (both rational and emotional), any thoughts? Thank you for this great video!

[@GregoryBSadler]

+Lucas Zech I think by your own characterization, you're using "misanthrope" in a different sense than Plato does.

[@akalash47]

Yea my misanthropy ain't about misplaced trust or insecurity. It's about the study of man in history. You should def not generalize like that

[@GregoryBSadler]

Well, then your misanthropy has got nothing to do with this video or text, I'd say.

[@analogaudiorules1724]

My misanthropy is from both situations, lmao.

[@Anekantavad]

I get accused (sic) of relativism a lot, and I think it is perceived that I am using ideas as bludgeons - or at least as ways of making myself look clever and making others look stupid. This clarifies how this is a danger to oneself as much as it is a danger to others - and as such it's a very refreshing look into the way in which arrogance can be quite a dangerous vice. Dangerous to oneself, and one's clear understanding. My interest in Indian "maybe theory" (syadvada) predated this, but I originally studied classical Greek and Roman philosophy, and I eventually came to deal far more with the Indian variant. It is fascinating to discover that this idea has been dealt with in the Western "canon", but I had simply not listened - or been equipped to listen. Thanks for this :-)

[@GregoryBSadler]

+Anekantavad you're very welcome! Well, I suppose that you're going to get that "using ideas as bludgeons" interpretation, if you're at all effective in following out thoughts, connecting them together, critically comparing them, etc. -- which I've certainly seen you as in our many interactions. Yes, arrogance is definitely a dangerous vice - and even dangerous when it's not grown into a full vice, but just is a tendency. I don't see you as arrogant, though. . . .

[@tienshan9819]

I love your comparison to fundamentalism, whether religious or secularist. In general, this was a great video lecture!

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@NemusAmaranthi]

Brilliant video. I especially like how this tackles the balance between analyzing and criticism vs allowance and acceptance - always a tricky cross roads when dealing with intellectual and personal pursuits, this doctrine of Platos is very true and worth chewing over, as it links the personal with the intellectual as the same process.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Thanks -- yes, it's just a short passage, but hitting on something of central importance to the examined life

[@marijaunnaz]

Great video, please make more

[@GregoryBSadler]

I am. Here's the Core Concept playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PL4gvlOxpKKIjwnfPgqLkLJ7cHXAqDHfBA Take a look around

[@Drpermer]

Misanthropy, not just a fun word to say, but a magnificent way of life! Oh, and if you, like me, find that most of your relationships break down, you may wish to identify the common denominator (I.e., you) when trying to identify a root cause

[@carrie8541]

We need to find like minded people in a people haters support group. Maybe misanthrops cant bond over their dislike of humankind. Its a start

[@GregoryBSadler]

Most likely, their other attributes will tick each other off

[@painexotic3757]

Another great video. I've always resorted to your channel when wanting to learn more about something philosophical lol. Learned alot in the past 2 years i've been watching your vids.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad thwe videos are helpful for you!

[@JamesCarmichael]

I think in life we all go through phases and periods where certain structural modes of being are very attractive and we adopt them for a time. I've certainly had my years of nihilism and misanthropy, but also had a wonderful childhood more or less. I'm disabled and have a vision impairment and it can't help but inform certain things about the way I think and interact with the world. I realise I live in a world (or perhaps more civilisation) that wasn't necessarily constructed with people like me in mind. Crossing roads, reading all kinds of things, being averse to light etc all present challenges that most people don't think twice about. The issue is more what my attitude is towards this. Am I a victim of it or do I just make the best of the situation and move forward however I can? Thankfully now being 33 I feel I'm moving out of the darkness and moving towards a more structured and meaningful life.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad to read that you've come out of that as well

[@peterlexx650]

very enjoyable viewing. have subbed & clicked the bell. look forward to checking out more of your work.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Glad you enjoy the videos

[@Muskrat123]

Your videos are incredible, thank you for releasing them to the public! I can't tell you how much of a service it is. You definitely know your stuff, and while there are plenty of free lectures on philosophy online, very few of them tackle it in the same manner that you do by applying these concepts, theories, and ideas to the real world and everyday life. I'm totally unsure as to whether or not Plato's definition of misanthropy, that is general distrust of people, is becoming more prevalent or less prevalent in today's culture and with the usage of the internet. Do you have an opinion? Because I sure don't. :P

[@GregoryBSadler]

Very glad you enjoy the videos! If you'd like to support that work I'm doing, here's my Patreon page - www.patreon.com/sadler

[@Mephilic]

Misanthropes they're just people who lost faith in humanity. In order to lose faith one would of first had to have had a optimistic view. Idealists who're introduced to the unideal natures of humanity. People are quite keen for noticing patterns as well as adapting to these patterns. The way I see it's just people who adapted to the poor cards they're dealt. Can't say it's the optimal response but it makes sense on how such thinking could come to be they're basically a fallen optimist. One would have to recondition a sense of faith in humanity by focusing on humanity's more noble traits. As it's easy to hype fixate on what pains a person.

[@thinkneothink3055]

I’m guessing that to most people this will sound like just another philosophical lecture (and there are many). To a misanthropist, the ideas expressed here are worth listening to, at least twice. Consider the word ‘misanthropy’, which starts with the letters ‘mis’. Also consider the word ‘misery’, starting with the same three letters. Then consider that misanthropists are miserable people. Coincidence? Misanthropy can only result in misery. When you find yourself in disdain of 7.5 billion of your kind you can never be happy. But don’t we all want to be happy? Misanthropy is the result of a logical error. Ironically, it’s an error more logical people tend to make. Schopenhauer and Nietzsche are two appropriate examples. Both resented the human race. Both had poor relationships with at least one of their parents. Coincidence? Misanthropists don’t believe they can trust anyone, including their parents. They find themselves in a cold, cruel world with no one to understand or accept them. They get let down a number of times by friends and romantic interests, and reach a point where the idea of being let down one more time becomes unbearable. This wouldn’t happen if they had a good relationship with at least one of their parents to fall back on. It’s especially bad when you can’t trust your own mother. It makes you wonder, if you can’t trust your own mother, who can you trust? As far as the relationship between misanthropy and misology goes, consider that a misologist is someone looking for a one-size-fits-all philosophy, as suggested in this video. A misologist then has an all-encompassing philosophy they can trust: they can’t trust anything. They find comfort in this one simple truth. Misanthropists are people seeking truth, and the only perceived truth they can find is that they can’t trust anyone, or anything. For someone seeking truth this is better than nothing. The only problem is that it’s not quite true. There are good people in this world. You may have to look for a while, but they’re there.

[@bxfbbxcbxc5328]

What is the benefit of not being a misanthrope (philanthrope???) ? Friends who will back stab you? Lovers that will leave you? Family that will fuck you over? The payoff is so much less than the pain.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Guess you'll never likely know

[@ericzarahn9343]

In this video, a metalogos is suggested of cautiousness with regard to reliance on and marriage to any given logos. But does this metalogos (edit) satisfy itself?

[@GregoryBSadler]

Metalogos is your term. You can figure out the implications for it, I suppose

[@ericzarahn9343]

@@GregoryBSadler A logos of logoi. A philosophy of philosophies. A system that has prescriptions for how to deal with systems is itself a system. (Edit) One can ask if such a system is consistent when applied to itself. If it is not, then it provides some bounds on that project of thought. You don't need to respond. I am just clarifying my comment.

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@ericzarahn9343 Good luck with that project

[@kuethkhor6738]

I feel like you've described me pretty well. I have placed my faith in many relationships and endeavors only for them to backfire or turn out fruitless. I choose to become a sort of passive spectator because of the way situations have turned out in the past. I guess my question to you would be how can I develop the judgment and conceptual thinking skills in order to fall out of this trap?

[@GregoryBSadler]

It'll be a process with a lot of steps, many of them repeated. First step is probably continually reminding yourself of that realization that you've got yourself in a rut where you're making mistaken or unfounded assessments, and that you don't want to remain stuck there

[@jamariusjones690]

If a person has misanthropy does their hatred or distrust last a long time?

[@GregoryBSadler]

Until they move out of or past it

[@jamariusjones690]

@@GregoryBSadler I understand, thanks for the reply!

[@eroschurros]

Thank you for this. I'm on my journey on learning about Misanthropy and I want to discover all of its aspects. May I ask if I am a misanthrope if I find some people only tolerable but still distrust them?

[@eroschurros]

I don't think I am a misologist at all. I believe in logic most of all above all else, hence why I'm also continuously teaching myself of different philosophical values. I just find myself leaning more towards misanthropy as I never have an undue trust of anyone or anything at all besides logic.

[@GregoryBSadler]

The key here would be to take the text and then apply the reasoning about misanthropy there to your actions/attitudes

[@eroschurros]

@@GregoryBSadler Got it. I have a hard time comprehending the text as much as English is my second language. I will be watching this more so that I can process this better as I take in your reply. Many thanks!

[@eroschurros]

@@GregoryBSadler Thank you for making such great content by the way! We weren't really taught of this in the depth that you do.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Read Plato in the translation in your native language then, if he's been translated into it

[@MattHelmSA]

I don't have a hatred or a distrust of other people. Besides the relationship I have with my son I have absolutely no desire whatsoever for other personal relationships.

[@Cacowninja]

I'm working hard not to be an misanthrope. One thing have to say for now is I hate the fact that humans make other humans go to school. I hate that I fucking hate that. Most if not all countries have forced education and I think it's stupid to make the decision for people to get an education. It's THEIR business NOT YOURS and yet nearly EVERYONE agrees with forced education in some way, shape, or form. I had a tough time in school getting bullied and disrespected by rude students as well as rude teachers and the fact that society supported me being forced to go here or be private/homeschooled made me even angrier. People love a government that controls others as well as controlling others themselves which is really unfair. I'm getting better but it's really frustrating sometimes. We need to not have such a sheeple society.

[@slyguy8931]

Welp, this describes me. Naive trust in others due to insecurity has led to me becoming misanthropic.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Fortunately, people can come back from it

[@sal2417]

at the 18:00 it right away reminded me of bernie lol

[@doctorshell7118]

Great video, but a bit of a straw man. Some of us misanthropic folks just think that our species is parasitic on the whole and it’s not necessarily about individuals or being taken advantage of. It’s more that our species is destructive and greedy and possibly deserving of extinction. We’re generally just stupid. Mistrust in reason or logic doesn’t seem to be related.

[@GregoryBSadler]

You totally missed the point of the text and the video

[@doctorshell7118]

@@GregoryBSadler I’ve rewatched this and still don’t understand where I’m wrong in my criticism. Please point out specific errors and I’ll be happy to retract my comments immediately.

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@doctorshell7118 Nah. Keep at it buddy. And frankly, I don't care whether you retract your comments. I've given this conversation as much time as I'm going to

[@divinezoomer7305]

I treat people well and i'm also pretty much a misanthropist because i hate the core aspects of humanity. also a moral relativist. i can also be pretty social at times.

[@innocentoctave]

I'm not even sure that misanthropy is a coherent concept. To distrust all people, one would have to identify some quality common to all actual persons that could be identified as the certain justification for a general lack of trust. Given that we all have limited experience of actual persons, it's hard to see how such a quality might be identified securely - by definition, the misanthrope can't trust other people as a source of information, and so can only depend on his own direct experience. His argument would also be vulnerable to refutation by a single counter-example. The misanthrope's refusal to socialise might be seen as a defence against the possibility of such an encounter. I think Plato was probably correct in seeing misanthropy as an irrational, emotional matter rather than a reasoned position. It's not difficult to detest a specific individual for specific, concrete reasons. Hating 'people' in general for no more than 'being human' - usually tendentiously defined - involves substituting an abstraction for actual persons and hating that abstraction. Realistically, one never actually experiences 'people': only a small subset of actual persons. Misanthropy is rationally incoherent, but emotionally appealing to wounded people. 'Scratch a cynic, find a ruined romantic.'

[@GregoryBSadler]

You mean that it's an incoherent perspective or comportment, I think, rather than an incoherent concept. Plato construes it as partly rational, but not fully so. There is a reasoning process involved - as I discuss in the video, and as Plato sets out very clearly in the text - but it's an ultimately irrational reasoning process

[@innocentoctave]

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond. I have no formal philosophical training, so inevitably my use of terms falls short of professional rigour. Looking through the comments, I note that the understanding of misanthropy as 'mistrust' has been superceded in common usage by a more general sense of dislike of or contempt for mankind that includes mistrust but is larger in scope. This seems to have caused a certain difficulty here in appreciating Plato's argument, which sees misanthropy as much narrower in focus. When contemporary misanthropes in the ecological movement, for example, characterise mankind as a virus or cancer that deserves to be extirpated, are they mischaracterising themselves as misanthropes? Or are these two senses of the term instances of using the same name for entirely separate phenomena?

[@GregoryBSadler]

I suspect that many of the more or less off-base comments are by people who haven't read the Plato (and perhaps not even watched the video all the way through) and just wanted to air their own views. It's certainly possible that the term "misanthrophy" have different senses

[@bandname]

@@GregoryBSadler Well, when it comes to philosophy it's necessary to accumulate new perspectives and ideologies so it makes sense for there to be different forms.

[@alexmonza2823]

The "limited experience of actual persons" would not impede you from giving a verdict about human nature. Even if you know only about 100-150 people in your life more or less intimately it's enough to discern a general pattern of them being morons. Of you being a moron as well.

[@thefourthone1843]

Embrace misanthropy....then work your way back from there.

[@GregoryBSadler]

So long as you work your way back, I suppose

[@Dunge0n]

@@GregoryBSadler Why?

[@GregoryBSadler]

@@Dunge0n If it's just going to be this sort of stuff, don't bother commenting here

[@sal2417]

until now I thought I was misanthrope but it's really because like plato I believe people shouldn't beable to vote until they became philosophers 😆

[@allistorscottdylan1444]

I'm not a misanthrope but my husband is. The contradicting thing about this is that misanthropes are introverted, right? Well my husband is extroverted, or was extroverted rather. His misanthropy developed early in his childhood and strengthened during his teenage years. Everyday he talks about how humans are disgusting, filthy creatures who deserve to die and constantly wishes death upon mankind. We first thought he was just extremely "cynical" because he DOES trust me (as his husband) and our best friend, but at the same time there's always this doubt and undying, underlying distrust. From all his past experiences he's shared with me and even things I've witnessed I can understand why he's misanthropic and partially feel the same way. But after discovering he's a misanthrope, his introversion has increased 10 fold and well, he's rude to 95% of the people he comes in contact with (which always leaves me and our best friend apologizing). Is there a way to deal with misanthropy?

[@GregoryBSadler]

There's no intrinsic connection between misanthropy and introversion. Yes, there's ways to deal with or work through misanthropy, but that's likely a lot of individual work

[@allistorscottdylan1444]

Gregory B. Sadler oh really? That's kind of a shocker. I've been researching misanthropy to understand it more than just "a person hating humans/mankind" for whatever reason. On a website somewhere I read that misanthropes are introverted and tend to isolate themselves due to disgust (or whatever reason) just to remain away from humans.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Well, if you've read it on the Internet, it must be true.

[@allistorscottdylan1444]

Gregory B. Sadler sarcasm detected; everything on the internet isn't true. I've seen multiple articles saying something similar which was why I've concluded it must be true. Sorry if I sound rude.

[@sal2417]

I believe in Libertarian anarchy

[@Revelation13-8]

Misanthropy is not from a singular experience..... but from MULTIPLE experiences over and over and , and comes with wisdom and knowledge or truth and reality of society and the human race , and most of all from the bible , all over the bible , u cant trust any of them , not a single one , all gone astray , the whole world under the evil one , this video was unberable to watch more then a few minutes skipping through it ..... horrid.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Janah Plato doesn’t say it’s from a single experience

[@toptube8986]

My misery led me hear, hi!

[@stellaercolani3810]

Why dumb maybe ppl are simply that kind

[@GregoryBSadler]

No idea what you're trying to say here

[@dani45987]

Good teaching. I think the human race is ever day in a worst state.

[@GregoryBSadler]

Well, not the conclusion I'd draw, but all right

[@dani45987]

Yes its my personal point of view about society, but i like your style.

[@FeelingShred]

it seems it gets worst for those who were not dealt a good hand to start the game, and seems to get better and better for those who had a good start

[@dani45987]

Good point, but i'm talking overall: Corrupt politicians, low iq humans , wars, entertainment industry, not about my life, but about the game called society here.

[@ExtraordinaryJam]

Many people are fallen victims to this matrix called concioussness, and the increasing enthropy in the universe might have contributed to the state we are in right now

[@Seth-ng5oy]

I disagree

[@GregoryBSadler]

Too vague

[@Seth-ng5oy]

@@GregoryBSadlerI Agree