Plato's Charmides -- Brief Introduction

[@TheBibleisArt]

Your channel is great. Concise, well-researched and assuming Plato always has reasons for literary choices. Thanks!

[@frankmccluskey11]

Thank you for shining a light on these lesser known dialogues. While there are dozens about the Republic, Symposium and Apology, many of the dialogues do not have many videos. If we think that Plato knew what he was doing, we must look at the dialogues as a whole and thus they are all parts of a whole.

[@platosworld]

Exactly! I am planning future videos on the connections among various dialogues. Each dialogue is a world. Together, they are all parts of a cosmos.

[@Brunochavesj]

Very nice. Really summarized it in an interesting perspective

[@richardverlaine5479]

Thank you very much. I am not considered a dumb person but this threw me for a loop. Your video helped so much and I will revisit it.

[@platosworld]

Charmides is certainly not a nut to be cracked with the tap of a lady's fan. Glad you found the video helpful.

[@elauadeinsf]

I thought this summary to be extremely constructive for me,(after reading Charmides) thank you so much.You present the ideas contained in the latter part of the dialogue very well.

[@casualtalk1833]

Very well explained

[@kravien]

I was surprised you suggested by silence that the Theages isn't a dialogue! Quick question: What do you make of the fact that moderation isn't called a virtue in the Charmides?

[@kravien]

​@@platosworld Yeah, part of the problem with moderation seems to be, as you say, it's merely one ugly necessity for whatever amazing thing virtue is. Diligence has that character, too. But in Xenophon's case, they seem to prepare the way for a view of moderation that astounds by its importance--after all, it seems to include everything, certainly it swallows up justice! Plato seems to hint at this, too. The obvious definition of moderation turns out to be, mind your own business. In a way, it's as insulting a thought as, keep your nose to the grindstone... But in another way, it opens up this possibility, mind your own things well, which is incredibly expansive, & good make use of self-knowledge. I think Xenophon suggested in the Memorabilia that what people think of as moderation in politics is really a combination of piety & self-control, but that's somehow the wrong way to think about moderation. Presumably, because it covers over the distinction between what's good for oneself & what's good for others, or the problem of the good altogether. P.S. I should have clarified in re Theages--you mention in your introduction here the dialogues on the four virtues, but say there's no specific one for wisdom. That's what I was referring to. I'm sorry for the vagueness of my first query...

[@musicvideo4539]

where is the talk about wisdom? I was more focused on wisdom than temperance, and I think that was the crux of the dialogue. Why was it not mentioned even once here? The mit translation has it mentioned 57 times, temperance 97 times, but mostly in the earlier portion preceding the culmination of the argument on wisdom.

[@platosworld]

Good question: it points to the dangers of translation. When you say you're interested in wisdom, I think first of the Greek word sophia, which can also be translated as "theoretical wisdom," the understanding of the whole of things. But sophia appears in the Charmides only once, early in the dialogue, when Socrates says that he's interested in getting to know the Athenian youth who are distinguished in wisdom or beauty or both. It disappears for the rest of the dialogue. Much of the rest is focused on knowledge (episteme): knowledge of knowledge, knowledge of various subjects, or knowledge of oneself. The central question of the dialogue, then, is what's the relation between moderation (temperance, sophrosune) and knowledge? The dialogue's aporetic result appears to confirm that the best we might be able to achieve is to come to know that we don't know the most important things. This itself would be no small achievement. But it also puts into question the longing we have for such noble and good things as "wisdom." So, in its own surprising way, the dialogue may be very relevant to your focus on wisdom--but don't let loose translations mislead you into thinking it delivers more than it can.

[@musicvideo4539]

​@@platosworld Thank you for the exponence on the original text, that part was entirely missed by me and it adds a new angle to the argument made, while adding [rather than altering] what I had taken from it originally. The translation maybe misleading in its own way, but in my opinion, it is still a rather important dialogue to philosophy [of man] as a whole, one that I'm surprised hardly anyone talks about. However I cannot bear all the blame; I tried finding a word by word translation next to the text like that done by Juan and Maria Balboa (available on archive org), but had no success. Being a speaker of Arabic I'm particularly sensitive to how misleading translations can be; I can hardly recall a correctly translated Arabic work other than the works of Arberry, with classical Arabic having different several words that have the same meaning in English, but with different connotation (See Hans Wehr Lexicon), it is a tall order. That being said however, most translations are not guilty of this lack of subtlety like we have with Charmides here, but are rather full of outright mistakes that can be assumed to be down to the translator's bias.

[@platosworld]

Exactly. Most errors are due to our belief that we know what we don't know. For a more accurate English translation, I'd recommend this one by West and West: www.amazon.com/Charmides-Hackett-Classics-Plato/dp/0872200108. As for puzzling through the Charmides, here is a link to the Christopher Bruell commentary that I referenced in the description. It is very difficult--like the dialogue--but worth spending time on if you're seeking to understand the questions at the heart of the Charmides: interpretationjournal.com/shop/socratic-politics-self-knowledge-interpretation-platos-charmides-christopher-bruell/

[@ekbergiw]

Tough topic