Plato's Euthydemus -- Brief Introduction

[@outsider8831]

Love your content. This is my second pass at Plato and find it to mean much more to me as an adult. That being said I’m a blue collar uneducated brute and I much appreciate your help with these introductions. Looking forward to more.

[@platosworld]

Thank you! Sounds like you're doing pretty well in your reading for an uneducated brute.

[@outsider8831]

@@platosworld I’m trying!! I’ll admit a lot of what I read eludes me. So more passes at the material will be needed. I liked this one because this is how I imagine an argument with my younger self would be like. Granted on a much lower level. The brothers to me argue like they are prize fighting. That’s why Socrates appreciates it so much. He wants to learn how to spar like that. That’s my oversimplified take away.

[@slorbitify]

Thank you for the uploads! The timing of this upload is too good to be true, I just started to read the book today.

[@platosworld]

You're welcome. Hope you enjoy the book.

[@edmundborg5111]

I like the channel’s name change. Very appropriate.

[@platosworld]

Thanks! Figuring out how to transfer a channel on YT is harder than sorting out Euthydemus' arguments.

[@DLDLDLDLDLDLD]

So much tension in this dialogue

[@platosworld]

Interesting. On the surface it's clearly comic. But I think you're right that there are tensions present too. Where do you see them?

[@DLDLDLDLDLDLD]

@@platosworld Well, to be honest, I'm mostly new to Plato and so am probably not picking up on the subtler facets of the text/reading things a bit over-literally. At any rate it was the first dialogue I've read (as reading from the collected edition I'm using, starting from Euthyphro leading to the present Euthydemus) that depicts actual conflict between interlocutors, specifically anyway the apparently defensively angry Ctesippus in a few points of the text. My favourite being right after Dionysodorus stated that insofar as Socrates desires Clinias to become wise he desires him to perish, following which the text reads: "When Ctesipuss heard this he became angry on his favourite's account and said, Thurian stranger, if it were not a rather rude remark, I would say "perish yourself" for taking it into your head to tell such a lie about me and the rest, which I think is a wicked thing to say - that I could wish this person to die!" And a few other such points where Socrates comments to Crito that he jumped in between the two of them when it seemed they were getting rough which each other. Once again though I don't pretend to hold a full comprehension of the dialogue in its subtleties, or any of them for that matter, but it did strike me as different in this regard from the ones I've read thus far, though it was funny when Ctesipuss essentially said that he would tell the stranger to perish himself, if it wasn't apparently too rude. (Edited for various typos)

[@platosworld]

@@DLDLDLDLDLDLD Great observation. That is a crucial moment. The lover erupts at the implication that he would want his beloved dead. Quite the opposite. The dialecticians, on the other hand, easily imagine such a possibility. The exchange reveals something of the difference between lovers and philosophers.

[@joeybossolo7]

@@platosworldbut philosophers are lovers too. Lovers of sophia, or wisdom! ;)

[@platosworld]

@@joeybossolo7Very true. But there is a difference between loving another person and "loving" something that never can love you back.

[@edgewaterz]

Is there a benefit to aporia (perplexity)? It seems like a tough "reward" or little prize to go through a long and difficult argument about something and to emerge in aporia and that's the end. Is there a more specific reward or boon to participating in Socratic dialogue? Thank you for your videos!

[@platosworld]

In the Gorgias, Socrates says that he enjoys being refuted even more than refuting others. The enjoyment of being refuted is that of seeing that you thought you knew something that you didn't know, and now you know that you don't know it. It is, in fact, an increase in knowledge. Being "stuck" (aporia--without a way out) is thus not a dead end but a way forward. At least out of the delusion of thinking that you know something. A good example occurs in the Greater Alcibiades 113d-119a--though there too Alcibiades backs away from truly accepting his ignorance.

[@edgewaterz]

@@platosworld Euthyphro doesn’t seem happy to feel the rug pulled out from underneath what he thought was his wisdom. And at least a few other interlocutors seem to have the same opinion of having their knowledge rendered obsolete. It doesn’t feel liek the birth of wisdom but mroe like a setback. So is happiness at being refuted something Socrates has taught himself ot view as a plus? To recognize refutation as a birth? (Hence being the midwife he calls himself) It’s a bitter pill to swallow and takes some time to recover for his dialogue partners. For which Socrates is always compassionate. But nonetheless it doesn’t feel like a reward when it happens. It’s difficult to view as a prize.

[@platosworld]

@@edgewaterz That's right. Most of the dialogues show the interlocutor failing to profit from being refuted. It hurts, and most people believe that what causes them pain is bad. Theaetetus, the example you allude to, is different. Socrates there describes refutation not as a birth but as preemptive abortion--the delivery of a "wind-egg." And Theaetetus responds well to it. The difference is both nature and nurture. It would be useful to compare Theaetetus and Alcibiades, both promising young men, each brilliant in his way, and each attracted to Socrates, but Alcibiades can't hold onto it. At the end of the day you have to see gaining knowledge of your ignorance as progress of the most rewarding sort. As Socrates argues in Rep 5 and 6, and as Averroes emphasizes in his commentary, it requires courage of a rare sort.

[@edgewaterz]

@@platosworld So it’s about happiness (eudaimonia)? When Socrates is refuted and discovers he doesn’t know something he’s happy. Meanwhile the rest of us become depressed or disillusioned. But Socrates would rather know he was wrong than not know he was wrong. That’s why it makes him happy to be refuted? Suggesting there is an extra step in the process the lay person isn’t consciously taking. We received bad information, but that’s ok, now we’re the wiser for it.

[@platosworld]

@@edgewaterz Perhaps this is too simplistic, but I see it as something akin to the pleasure that any of us feel when we realize we are getting better at something or are improving in some way. E.g., learning to play tennis is frustrating at first, and you constantly miss shots or get smoked. But as you practice you see your improvement and you enjoy that. Being refuted hurts at first, and maybe always has some sting to it, but over time it contributes to that pleasure of feeling that you're improving.

[@granthagen3207]

I feel like your style of explanation would best fit as a narration over some visuals. When you show your face it comes off as a sort of unnatural and scripted conversation. Maybe it’s just me. Good stuff though. Very helpful, especially to someone like me whose central interest is psychology, but still wants to acquaint himself with theideas of platos dialogues without reading all of them

[@platosworld]

Thanks, Grant. I think you're exactly right. I've always felt that if these videos prove helpful in spite of my poor production abilities (and my face!), then the content must have some worth.

[@granthagen3207]

@@platosworld evident! But imagine the value and reach possible through great content and great production!