Humanism as Heresy. Testing the thesis of Tom Holland. A conversation with Rupert Sheldrake

[@lindacarroll5018]

Wonderful conversation. Thank you both so much.

[@grailcountry]

9:25 Gregory of Nyssa was a harsh critic of slavery in the 4th century. The imago dei may only be mentioned in a handful of passages of scripture, but it certainly was important to Patristic thought. The roots of this are far deeper than the Renaissance. Maximus is far more radical than anything the Renaissance has to offer. I would direct you to my conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nGKtf6xnqtxjqdU. Just some mild pushback. I am a great admirer of your work, and your book Secret History of Christianity was a revelation to me at a critical moment in my life.

[@PlatosPodcasts]

Thanks and I’ve no doubt that’s right, yes. Though Gregory of Nyssa also stands out as the only patristic writer to unreservedly call slavery an abomination. But yes, we western Christians probably need a lot more of the eastern insight of Maximus et al…

[@monkeytrousers6180]

A lot of these historians who write these big books I notice have been indoctrinated through the Oxbridge system ..in that all of human history has been one big march towards Oxbridge historians who happen to be the pinnacle of evolution.

[@velkyn1]

alas for Holland, the ideas about helping people are far older than the failure of Christianity. I always love the christian lie that somehow non-christians "steal" their ideas when it is the exact opposite.

[@schmetterling4477]

We should probably remind everybody, again, that it was secular humanism that ended the religious wars and witch burning. ;-)

[@grailcountry]

15:40 This is a much stronger area of push back on Holland's thesis. Tom Holland's argument only defends a kind of cultural Christianity which in the end has no merit (we've tread this path before). In reality he hasn't actually begun to understand the core of Christianity at all, and is only interested in a utilitarian way. On this I agree, but I think his claim that the values Humanism takes for granted are actually unthinkable without Christianity is pretty unassailable, it's just that isn't enough to understand what being a Christian means, not even close. It essentially drafts Christianity into the defense of Humanism because Humanism is collapsing when not rooted in the mystery of the God-man.

[@johnstewart7025]

Natural religion can take the place of revealed religion. I am reminded of Mccauley's ashes of our fathers and temples of our gods

[@PlatosPodcasts]

But then what is nature? As David Bentley Hart is fond of pointing out, nature comes to us via the supernatural, given that consciousness, beauty, intention and the like are extra-natural to the natural sciences.

[@schmetterling4477]

The core idea of Christianity is that the dude will come back, resurrect the dead, judge the dead and then burn most of the resurrected and judged dead for an eternity in a lake of fire. If that sounds awfully Egyptian to you, then probably because it is. ;-)

[@johnandrews1162]

Yes the western church post Constantine took eternal conscious torment as almost the only position on judgment and the eschaton but the church pre Constantine held that this was a minority position with universal reconciliation of say Origen or Gregory Nyssa being much more significant.

[@schmetterling4477]

@@johnandrews1162 It's bullshit either way. Since we are post-Constantine, however, we have to contend with the bullshit of our modern Christians. :-)

[@johnandrews1162]

I think MV is right Christianity as understood in Latin Christendom, which includes both Catholic and Protestant and secular west, is primarily about good and evil. However, for Christendom of the East it is primarily a philosophical/mystical matter of life and death.

[@Autobotmatt428]

I saw that article to

[@brendantannam499]

I guess the idea of Christ’s resurrection is a bridge too far. I would say so too. My main takeaway from Dominion was that Christianity created a network of caring communities across the known world that made itself useful in a political way to Emperor Constantine. I wonder do we utterly underestimate the concept of everyone made in the image of God. Not being a believer, I’ve being trying for a long time to translate that into a secular equivalent and so far, no joy. Here’s a thought, though - considering how awfully Christians were treated through the centuries by their own kind, could it be that that the image of God idea in the West has reached its highest realisation in these secular times? That makes me think of a hybrid secular Christianity. Christians may well think the hybrid couldn’t bear fruit because it has no belief in the power of holy spirit. I think Mark sees holy spirit as Blakean imagination. Rupert is not so clear to me but I feel he would not look at the resurrection of Christ in a literal way and loves the atmosphere of the religion as more relevant than the doctrine.

[@johnstewart7025]

Reminds me that Jung wrote that compared to the God of Job, Christ is a much more civilized person. I don't believe he addressed the idea that we all deserve to be corrected in the way that Job was.

[@brendantannam499]

@@johnstewart7025 Here's something from Blake: Thinking as I do that the Creator of this World is a very Cruel Being & being a Worshipper of Christ, I cannot help saying: "the Son, O how unlike the Father!" First God Almighty comes with a Thump on the Head. Then Jesus Christ comes with a balm to heal it.

[@PlatosPodcasts]

But I think Blake is there referencing the deism of his age. He prefers God as the “universal father” and “I am in you and you in me, mutual in love divine”.

[@PlatosPodcasts]

I think Blake understood/experienced the incarnation as the divine imagination, expanding his perception to infinity, even as he saw the minute particulars of the world. The resurrection is not only a one-off event in history but a continual passageway through “Eternal Death” to “Eternal Life”, as Blake puts it - the “furnaces of affliction” transforming into “fountains of living water”.

[@PlatosPodcasts]

@@johnstewart7025 This may be of interest - kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZyodZttg9p7nKM