Playing a Cooperative Game (with Nick Marini)

[@hoodiesticks]

Brennan: "You could have watched this 2 weeks earlier on Dropout!" Me, watching this 3 years late: "Thanks, good to know."

[@demonderpz7937]

Me, watching it 4 years late 🙃

[@Mindteaser4022]

Me, 5 years late

[@jasonwillhoite]

Me, watching 2 weeks before Critical Role’s downfall arc

[@cho7879]

here from downfall, Nick Marini you are so cool dude

[@Flip4Crypt]

Came here to say the same thing haha

[@_Enerdor]

Theres a great quote from Chesterton along the lines of the last question: “Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed.

[@fraidnaught9067]

9:34 No fuck that, fight harder for alliteration SCIONS OF THE STORM, fixed.

[@MacBurlTheSecond]

I would love to be a fly on the wall for any of the campaigns they’re talking about

[@PyrotechNick77]

and now Nick and Brennan will be on the new EXU ThreeShot!!!! I cannot wait!!!

[@SebyTunes]

I could not agree more with the collaborative storytelling and background details between the DM and the Player Character. My character is an Eladrin Elf, Circle of the Moon Druid named Aurora, and essentially in her background, long-backstory-short, she was abandoned by her father and left in the fey wilds, however with a letter that was sealed with high level arcane magic. No one knew what the letter contained initially, not the DM or myself, I specifically and intentionally left the contents of the letter to the DM, which in turn, created an authentic intrigue and curiosity to go throughout this story to find out what the letter contains, for not only my character but for me as a player as well! Collaborative storytelling adds such a great potential of investment from all characters and players involved, and I am in love with the concept.

[@wandererswanderingdaughter1756]

Omg tell us what the letter said!!!

[@danielgay4924]

Nick - "Get in there, embarrass yourself." No truer words have been spoken about playing D&D or any role-playing game. You wanna do a voice, do a voice. You wanna act a fool then act a fool. If you're in the right group of players everyone will laugh with you or enjoy what you're doing and the play will be that much better. Thank you for another great episode Brennan.

[@enbyharvey1417]

We need more ttrpg with nick asap

[@adriellamas2654]

I love the little pauses nick does. Because I feel this is so important to him that he needs to find the word that perfectly expreses his idea

[@Wretchrot]

Literally as I was reading this comment he took a 2-second pause. I also didn’t notice it until I read this comment.

[@mac_sour]

god i'm just consuming an overwhelming amount of nick marini content, i wish he did like actual plays and stuff bc i'm just a huge fan of him as a player and what he brings to D&D, he's so incredible. especially after watching him in downfall, he took the entire concept and ran down mid with it. if i ever meet nick/brennan i definitely wanna ask for stories about their home game together bc that sounds fucking awesome as hell.

[@alli-gator-forest]

Watching this after Downfall. Nick is so fucking talented and I wish I found this video sooner.

[@alli-gator-forest]

you're telling me that nick played an IMPOSTER OF HIS CHARACTER FOR A YEAR??? WHAT EVEN THE FUCK THATS SO COOL

[@coltonbunja]

"a flying mount is gonna be sick" idk why but that fucking killed me. but dude is right.

[@yoroshiku137]

It was so nice seeing Nick and Brennan together in Critical Role Downfall!

[@KatieKat823]

I'm not an experienced or very good DM, I'm now 3 years into our current campaign and still learning the rules and mechanics, but this does give me hope that I could become a good DM

[@vesper1799]

If you've been able to hold a campaign together for that long, you're probably a way better DM than you think

[@CharacterUnlimited]

Who else just clicks to watch whatever Brennan says? Oh that's right everyone does

[@JubioHDX]

I do like brennan more than most of the guests by default but i cant agree with this i dont ever watch the full episode unless the other person is interesting too or i already like them from something else

[@xuxuang8574]

This is my favorite episode so far. Nick is very insightful and the conversation was very interesting and educational. Tell me he comes back on! (Just discovered this series recently)

[@gentlemandemon]

I love the "level 0" idea for brand new players. I'm still a pretty inexperienced GM, and it gives me a lot of latitude for teaching the mechanics of playing a character to a brand new player without worrying about all the extra details

[@blazepond5518]

these interviews contain so much great and useful D&D advice and insights, my new favourite resource, thanks!

[@BlackShadow1991]

Yes, talking with your group is a point that keeps showing up, but it needs to be hammered constantly as I treat it as rule 0 of every tabletop roleplaying game :) Also, that was a fun guest and a cool episode :D

[@DerpyBerb]

Aww, this sweet boy.

[@Akari-br7ci]

I actually really, really like that analogy about the elephant. I will try to keep that in mind.

[@brandenloera9357]

Super insightful episode. Nick's input was fantastic and he seems like a cool dude.

[@MacAllen]

Long time watcher, 1st time commenter. Been GM'ing since '76 and wanted to add my own spin to the question "Is it OK to kill a player for another player's choices?" 1. A GM should never plan to kill a character without that character's foreknowledge and consent. Feel free to set up difficult encounters, personally target the character, etc, but to deliberately set up an encounter to murder a character betrays trust, removes agency, and is demoralizing. Characters are going to die, it happens, but to pre-determine "Joe is going to die this session" and not work it out with Joe in advance (he's leaving the game anyway, he wants to play another character, etc), is a serious betrayal as a GM. 2. Never do something like this without *CONSENT*. In this case, the consent of both the betraying player and the affected one. Make sure both are OK with this decision, especially if it's going to involve death. Now, if it's just a tough encounter that has a chance of death but the party can also rally and survive it, and this is how the target discovered they've been betrayed, that's a fantastic story, but if a devil shows up, flat out murders the target, and the warlock goes "sorry, guess I'm breaking up with you", that is a HORRIBLE way for that player to discover it. Consent is a huge part of any campaign table. The players come to the table and give the GM their trust, the GM should return that trust by engaging them to get their consent for such things. Again, death is going to happen, you don't need to have consent for a tough encounter that goes South, feces doth occur. But if you're deliberately targeting a character, or worse another character is doing it and the GM is the instrument by using encounters, consent should definitely be gotten in advance. What if that target player has developed genuine feelings and has no idea that the warlock is doing that? They could be devastated, to the point of never playing TTRPG again. Seen it more than a few times, it's not worth destroying someone emotionally for a "great story beat".

[@WhatsUpGazpacho]

Nick does an EXCELLENT Brennan impression

[@spencer5256]

fucking GOOSE EGG, my guy!

[@isabellanesheiwat8]

imagine your first dnd campaign ever is dm’ed by NICK MARINI and one of your fellow players is BRENNAN LEE MULLIGAN i would literally pass away on the spot

[@Cowboydjrobot]

Can someone please get Brennan a reusable coffee cup?

[@adamkaris]

Plot twist, he's been using the same disposable cup for years

[@EThack]

I adore the parable of the Elephant. Especially when talking about religion.

[@ikeekieeki]

who is here in anticipation of ExU: Downfall

[@Micaerys]

Time is a weird soup

[@VeniaMinute]

​@@Micaerysindeed🤔

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

29:18 Imagine how bad your initiative has to be in order for your turn to come two weeks after everyone else's.

[@Fella_friend]

37:14 if the pc that may die has the player ok with it then it’s ok

[@seiyikun1]

36:47 PLEASE DONT EVER, EVER KILL A PLAYER, THAT'S A CRIME

[@michaelfels4742]

Cool video. I would love to see Puffin Forest on here & get Brennans take on “absurd”, “tricky starbright”, & “detective Clancy”

[@benjammin6475]

41:41 wise words to explain to someone after they say “That’s what my character would do”

[@douglasjager3554]

If anyone had any doubts about your points on doing the opposite of what your character would do, there is a RAW example of that very idea in the form of the oath breaker paladin. By definition of the class(and subclasses) the PC has strong beliefs and ties those to their actions (I won’t lie, I wont harm the innocent, etc) and yet the rules give the oath breaker as a way to show that your character may choose at some point to go against what “they would do.”

[@louisebeck91]

...I was that unhelpfully mature kid... I will like this opportunity to say sorry, to all the grown ups that I met my first 5 years of RP 😅

[@claymacvoy564]

Thank you for the Elephant metaphor 😊

[@RakabooEntertainment]

I tried being the “traitor” character, but it didn’t work. The party was somewhat forced to do a job for a powerful Fae. My character despises the Fae and everything from the Feywild. After speaking with an enemy military captain, my character stayed behind to tell the enemy that another army is on their way to fight them. Basically giving them warning of an upcoming attack. The DM said “No, you don’t do that.” Never enjoyed playing that character afterwards.

[@LyricalDJ]

I think that may have to do with the way a DM's ideas and the player characters align (or not). Plus what players and DMs are comfortable with. Heck, trying to get back at the Fae who are forcing your pcs to do things is a cool idea (although it works better if the other partymembers are included, obviously). But maybe that DM didn't know of a way to incorporate that or something. That's the thing, it is cooperative and everyone needs to be on board (players, not characters). Which can be tricky.

[@F2t0ny]

With the whole devil is going to kill another player plot, I think I'd be pissed off if my character died because of some shitheads poor decisions and not my own and I'm going to be upset with the player. I'm down for my character to die if it's mildly poetic but not for someone else.

[@karenmiles4431]

36:40 Short answer, NO! Now let's break down the scenario. A DM, with insider knowledge of character backstory and goals, (as well as how the story has unfolded so far) set up a scenario where; 1) a PC Warlock met and made a deal with a Devil (again). 2) That the Devil like killing people close to characters. 3) The Warlock goes back on deals (presumably, again) 4) We have to assume that since the question is about killing a PC, that there are no NPCs associated with the Warlock. The DM had created a situation where one Player and their PC can unilaterally make a decision about another PC. That is stealing the agency of the player who's character ends up being targeted (unless someone mentioned sunsetting their character). That's not cool. As players and DMs we have to guard against getting to "small picture" to the point of tunnel vision. The above scenario (without the stated exceptions) should not be set up.

[@VicStrange9]

"They botched a roll, so instead of finding Bone Gnawers they find Black Spiral Dancers". YOOOOO. That's just WRONG. That's a TPK. That is basically sending them to the slaughterhouse.

[@rogersharp1650]

I'm convinced Brendan was playing Bill Seacaster in that Dread Isles campaign. He came so close to saying "the most piratey fuckin pirate you've ever seen." Canon?

[@umactually]

Come hang with Brennan on our Discord! Sign up for DROPOUT: bit.ly/2KOHLyr Download the INTERNATIONAL app here: bit.ly/2OiNNoP

[@JovanKo314]

7:11 So... these are gonna be One Piece pirates rather than Pirates of the Carribean pirates haha

[@daemonxblaze]

9:06 you can hear Brennan drinking

[@dustinmccollum7196]

Brennan I have to push back on a statement you can't get mad at a fictional character. Did you not get mad and hate Dr. Shou Tucker or Envy when he killed Mase Hughes. Or did you not get mad at Denethor when he was about to burn his son.

[@garrettbok7499]

A friend wants to play as a plane shifted Mike Tyson, I think he has the means to pull a full arc out of this would-be one-off

[@holydongbird]

here from cobra kai :D i LOVE NICK!!!

[@wellreadbull3740]

This kind of conversations remind me of this Ted Bundy documentary where he starts talking about himself in the third person, to have the ability to describe his actions. Distance from yourself let's you unearth so much of your personality. The reference might be flawed (and not at all a comparison) but I'm so intrigued and amazed by these meta psychograms that are drawn by d&d campaigns. It's like reading Dostojewski and being allowed to take part in the deeply detailed and ever evolving narrative... Damn that was a lot! Brennan, props to you and your team :)

[@Inanedata]

So I've watched all the episodes on KZbin at this point and I'm trying really hard to synthisize all the information about the pre-play investment. What sort of specific actions can I take to get the players and characters to be interested and "in motion" and work cooperatively?

[@nickamarini]

Pre play investment shouldn't take up too much time. Maybe just time spent thinking about stuff. I'd say give them some backstory let them think of cool ways to build a character in the world and the rest should take care of itself! They're building heroes (typically) so they should want to be working together theoretically! Remember it should be fun so anything stressing you just ignore!

[@SquishypuffDave]

In case you don't get an answer from CH, here are some suggestions: Involve your players in building your setting. Set expectations for the tone of your campaign. Provide players with important information that would be known to their character before the game starts. Tie the first encounter/mission to your characters' goals/bonds/preferences, and during character creation make sure the characters actually have those things. Show that the world is dynamic, fill it with interactable "hooks" that lead to the juicy bits of the story you want to tell, and provide some element of instability in the setting that discourages inaction. (But ideally not enough to discourage sandbox exploration.)

[@Inanedata]

@@nickamarini oh dude! Thanks for responding! I guess the struggle I'm having is that I'm trying to ensure through some method that my players create characters who are invested in the story, because I've had trouble with that before in campaigns that I've run and in many campaigns I've played in.

[@nickamarini]

@@Inanedata Totally. As a DM it can be good to talk with players about their character's intentions ect so you have a collective idea of where the story could be going. Having family members, friends, lovers integrated who they can interact with can often really help with that too!

[@eoincampbell1584]

@@Inanedata If you specifically want the players to be invested in each other's characters and work together, making them all friends or family members in their backstories can help, especially because then any threat to the group is one they all care about.

[@urktheturtle2988]

Love

[@nvk3435]

is this guy ezra koenig's estranged twin crossed with zach sherwin or not i need answers

[@nickamarini]

hahaha ill take it!

[@nickamarini]

@@nvk3435 hahaha no its my first podcast so I was trolling through to see if there was any constructive criticism/if people were responding to the video with questions ect I might be able to help! But also your first point lol

[@V1ctoria00]

Man I typed way too much and eventually lost track of my original point and then ended up not agreeing with myself. So typed all this instead. Why do we play DND? What is "Fun" from a chemical stance, and additionally what is "fun" from a philosophical stance? What does your character sheet say about your mind? How about your player actions? Does everyone play DND for different reasons or is there a very specific list of reasons that everyone repeats without writing down? Do people play DND badly? How is that possible? Do people play DND Correctly? How is that possible? Everyone says "you can't win DND" so how is it a game, and why can you lose? Can you even lose DND? Is losing opposite to winning? What is the difference between someone losing DND and someone being a bad player? Is being a bad player the same as being bad at DND? Should every player also be a Game Leader? That's impossible right, because we are not all smart/creative/brave/stupid/able to copy enough? So what if you are a game leader, why are you different than a person who can't do it? There seems to be general agreement about the sensation of good players and what that feels like, and good leaders how it feels to have a good leader. However The actions we take to create those feelings can be entirely opposed. we cannot define those actions in a form that is separated from the story and campaign and humans you are playing with. There is no list of laws and rules that works for everyone. There is no fun that is exactly the same level of fun for two different humans. There is not any way to prove any answers given to the previous questions. We cannot even expect humans to understand this and be in charge of it in their own mind and then also be good at sharing their "laws of personality" with other people. How is it you read this far down here and didn't stop halfway through just to argue with me? The answer to that question is the answer to how to play DND. Everything else is chance.

[@tylerdetert5459]

Man looks like Bobobo Combobo.

[@brucemccorvey8429]

I cant be the only one that thinks nick could be daniel tosh's brother lol

[@jeffbrownstain]

Forget Brennan, Nick is the friend everyone needs.

[@pashasalih730]

To new player , pls for the love of god. If you joined a group and by the 6th Session you have still have never touched a page in the PHD, do not have your own dice or char sheets/notes , or even a pen and rubber , just get your shit toegher. Like come on it at least been two mohnts, you only need to commit 15 mins per day to do be a good player. Just commit a bit.

[@heycharliemot]

I thought brennan was going to reveal something about himself with that intro

[@J0K3R_the_Nerd]

Lol a person that betrays and loses is a traitor, but if they win their a revolutionary

[@eoincampbell1584]

Unless they're betraying a random group of adventurers for no reason in which case they're a jackass either way.

[@derrickzeller3351]

Brennan is so yummy 🤤 lol. But seriously if I wasn't married...he could GET it