Playing From Behind Deep Dive | Broken by Concept 206 League of Legends Podcast

[@EverestGaming99]

I can’t thank the boys enough for saving me from a fed intruder last night, i was alone with no way to escape but the way Curtis and Nathan counter ganked that guy was incredible. Forever grateful ❤ my heros

[@TheeEvil]

Just want to give some love for how focused and thought-out these recent episodes have been. Yall are killing it!!!

[@itsmeitsmeitsmitchyt]

The boys have gone Dad Mode for their community.

[@Aceinine]

Im so thankful you guys made an entire podcast about this extremely burning question that just gets dismissed by most other high elo players and coaches. The only advice I've gotten from all of them for this is unanimously just - " don't fall behind " and " if you do. play safe " 😒

[@slinky777]

I agree with Nathan here completely. As a Draven player, who has been coached by a challenger Draven player, there's no reason to even learn how to play from behind, when your entire wincon for Draven is by decimating the enemy during the early game and snowballing out of control. It's the same mentality as his 'end of review' coaching method. If youre playing well, decimating your opponents, then you'll always be playing from ahead, and if you want to win consistently you should always be practicing getting ahead (preworkout fuelled comment sorry if it's a lot of waffle)

[@fortcolors9887]

I think the thing about what you said with "I don't expect you guys to win this game" is that most of your viewers are in much lower elo. They aren't playing against biopanther and whatever, they're playing against lower elo opponents. So in a game where they're 0/4, they still have a chance to win. The key point is to remember that if you're behind, it IS only a chance. The enemy is never guaranteed to make the mistakes your champ is able to, or that you know how to, punish.

[@stinker6784]

very good point!

[@benjidburg]

the grubs are 2-1 on the scoreboard (your jungle either smite stole, or got walked up on while doing grubs) @10:45

[@Pyrrha_Nikos]

Although I understand Curtis' point about reducing curiosity, I stand with Nathan on this one. If learning how to play from behind truly was a good way to climb, then the optimal strategy would be to run it down harder than the enemy, just so you can put yourself behind and therefore win from that position. It's just much more effective and useful to understand WHY you fall behind, and to avoid those mistakes in the first place, so you have to play from behind as few times as possible

[@akirakato1293]

Insert baus and his bounty system hack

[@jacksonmagas9698]

I do think learning the basics of playing from behind is useful for climbing though, so instead of losing 90% of the games you are behind you only lose 75% (numbers pulled out of my ass for the example)

[@Pyrrha_Nikos]

@@jacksonmagas9698 My point is that if you learn how to only fall behind in say 30% of your games, then you still have a ton of room to climb while not needing to put time into learning how to climb from behind. It's like if in school, you focused on how to study for exams after you failed the subject. Why bother when you can just learn during the regular term and not have to take the exam again in the first place?

[@jacksonmagas9698]

@@Pyrrha_Nikos I think that analogy fails because in league of legends you will always have games where you "fail the subject" and end up behind because you made some reasonable mistake. Don't get me wrong I think most energy should be spent on learning how to get ahead, but I think a better analogy for learning to play from behind would be something like learning to go to office hours when you are struggling with school, its not helpful at all if you do well, but if you end up behind it is helpful

[@Pyrrha_Nikos]

@@jacksonmagas9698 if you are behind because you make a reasonable mistake, your focus should be on learning from that mistake instead of trying to figure out how to dig yourself out the hole you dug yourself into

[@lyanrewis]

Not quite sure but Curtis is likely describing something similar to the Dunning-Kreuger effect at 28:20 . Might be worth looking into

[@highheatrichie]

I took a long break and eve, akali, Kat, got reworks and ap yi ap trynd are gone all my mains were changed ezreal ap doesn’t work for me anymore cuz w isn’t aoe so re learning ezreal was diamond 4 Mmr like forever ago a decade or something now starting from iron 😂

[@maph12]

Does anyone have an explanation for why their camera goes out all the time, or whatever it is that's happening during the "Please Stand By" screens?

[@justanordinaryKite]

Just something to note 10:30 - Grubs are actually shown on the scoreboard, it's the third from the left on blue side. (First mark is dragons, second is barons, third is grubs, fourth is towers.)

[@cassianojahn597]

Hi guys, there is a notable brazilian scholar called Paulo Freire, and in his life he focused on the learning process, learn how to learn. I think Curtis would really like his work and books.

[@mrmangbro6842]

1:06:30 exactly what happened to me. I was the Gragas guy, very high elo at one point at my peak I was one of the best Gragas players on NA in s10 (I don't remember the actual LP but I was near the top of master). That was also holding me back from learning how to properly play the game. Bad trade? Sustain. Bad wave management? Just instantly clear the wave. Overextended? One of the best disengages in the game. I didn't even realize how awful I was until I wanted to play other champs because I got tired of only being known as the Gragas player. I had no idea how to play waves, trade without that crutch, actually track the jungler, or even how to reset without instantly clearing waves. Now I'm struggling in d4/e1 trying to learn the rest of the game without so many crutches to fall back on.

[@slip-eez2477]

As a tryndamere player the dartboard analogy makes so much sense, if you're the only fed one you can still win off of a hailmary backdoor or pentakill team fight, making that bullseye

[@griffen1k]

42:58, I think nathan really has hit the nail on the head here. We know you can't have the "ff 15 mentality" since it will warp your view of the game, but what is often not talked about enough is the reverse which is the "Every game is winnable" mindset. These are 2 sides if the same coin, the difference between the 2 is one makes you lose your mind by under indexing on fixing problems "I'm died 3 times pre10? Just go next" the other makes you over index on fixing problems "we all got counter picked the enemy is literally SKT and nobody on my team is winning? Every game is winnable, so I need to review all 50 minutes of this game to see how we could have won." I think the best answer to either of these narratives is the "Every game is both the least important and most important" mindset. Do you ff every game? Not this one it's now the most important. Are you a chronic over reviewer? Well the game is done and it's now the least important game.

[@gemofhaste1872]

So I play soraka support as an OTP I always play "from behind" because I always have less gold than the res of my team&the enemy BUT I am a swimmer so I take the beat the clock mindset into my games because I usually start by build boots, moonstone, redemption, into vigilant wardstone buying pinks almost every recall what this allows me to focus only on my positioning & map control I need to give my team the knowledge to make objectively good decisions!

[@theholyroman6283]

I’m going to study this episode like a bible 😂

[@spencerw1839]

Your content saved league for me

[@sololegit]

I've sadly been playing league off and on for 13 years and this podcast just helped me win a game! I've never really thought about teams being easy or hard to play because I probably incorrectly have always thought about comps through the lens of perfect play. Solo q isn't anywhere near good, none the less perfect. I wish I could re watch my last 100 games with this new thought process but stupid patch makes them expire.

[@xokirei]

the fun thing abt playing from behind is that it’s entirely dependent on enemy mistakes, and the thing a lot of the player base doesn’t acknowledge is that unless you’re in high elo, everyone WILL make mistakes when ahead. esp hovering bronze-plat, it’s fun sometimes to just experiment and watch. if your team is losing, but you’re being consistent and not dying at all, just watch and wait for all of the common ways people troll their lives, troll objs, troll bounties etc and learn to take advantage of them. a common one imo is that (adc main) when the enemy botlane is far ahead early (before plates fall), they will try to roam to lanes that are simply unwilling to switch. instead of joining the 3v1 mid, you (assuming with sup or jgl hovering instead of both going mid to team fight) get to take so much gold and solo xp for free whilst the enemy is no longer pushing their lead. i make it a point in my games to try to be intentional abt it, and when i’m playing at my peak and hard streaking it’s cause even when i lose lane i’ll play for t2s all over the map and its a ridiculous amount of gold. ppl in low elo hate side lanes, take all towers bot, take tower top, suddenly you’re a full item or more over the adc that beat you in lane with a level lead 🤷 the main problem there is it feels like you’re on a timer abt getting to your hard carry spikes before the team wants to ff, or keeps dying to leave towers undefended so not enough time for you to make your plays. is what it is tho 🤷it’s fun to me to play well regardless of the game

[@mikyu4758]

I am grateful for BBC'ers showing me how to play from behind

[@96Logan]

1:11:40 100% agree. I was thinking about this the other week. I don't care to be the rank 1 player on any particular champion. If I could be the #5 on each of my top 3 champs, I think it would be better. Let the rank 1-4 figure out all the nitty gritty stuff and make use their knowledge/gameplay. Let the dedicated one tricks find the hidden strats. It's more efficient for everyone 😂

[@connoro842]

In the first screenshot, you CAN see the grub count. It’s next to the towers taken. This is pretty suspect that these guys don’t recognize that

[@MIIC2]

I didn't learn League while playing Zed because reason I was losing was always mechanical. Now I moved to Ahri and improved but even she was too hard. Now I am happy Morgana player. Morgana is also good to play from behind because of her utility. I also have agency to split push when my team refuses to close a winning game.

[@garagavia]

Lads we're over 200 eps in, please fix your cam setup

[@thestoebz]

You guys really came in clutch at that dragon fight. She even moved out.

[@stank8460]

Let me summarize playing from behind: Prioritize farming. Wait for the enemy to make mistakes instead of forcing plays. Dont surrender just because you lose lane phase.

[@garagavia]

Really on point with the topics recently ❤

[@LuxiBelle]

59:40 a lot of people play league like how Bossmanjack plays game on Stake

[@kidzniper4082]

Please do a topic on intesity. I've played like 5 games with intensity, and it was awesome, but i dont know how to get into the right frame of mind consistently.

[@yGKeKe]

Practical advice: "Wait for the other team to fuck up." You're not winning the game. You're just waiting for the other team to lose it.

[@CorrosiveH2O]

1:04:15 yep this was me with Samira. I had to drop her in order to actually learn the game

[@arnovanroy3]

The reason why playing from behind is the same as from ahead, is because if you are behind, you will start to make narratives and create stage 4 issues and you shouldn’t be doing that ahead or behind.

[@danzors]

What is Nathan saying at the beginning, “Welcome BBC-ist”?

[@000azeva]

hurricane beryl hitting my house rn but bbc coming in clutch 🙏

[@jacksonmagas9698]

beryl finally earned enough money after all the control wards to get runnan's hurricane

[@garrettbillington7230]

When are we going to open a GoFundMe or Venmo for a new camera? This camera you guys have used is 200 episodes old, cuts out every episode, and I think we can do better than that and raise a few hundred dollars for a better setup if you just advertise it. I already patreon to another podcast I like. I don't see why I couldn't pay a little something to you guys for all your entertainment even once.

[@Jadenity]

I haven't watched BBC or played for a long time but recently got back into League. This was a great episode! One thing... episode 206 and still haven't solved the camera issues? ;) Can we please get that fixed? It's very jarring and distracting when I'm watching and intently listening and suddenly the video goes out. Thanks for all you guys do!

[@samuelnoel2889]

I am a sion one trick with 2.6 million points currently in plat 3 as of writing. What I worry is that by switching to another champion is that I wont get better, because Sion is already a beginner oriented champion that is fairly easy with a low skill ceiling. Its like a garen one trick, what can you move down to that is easier that improves your situation if you're already among the easiest champions?

[@Alend222]

It's a lot clearer when you can scale like Aurelion Sol or other mages, but what if you're an assassin like Akali playing from behind?

[@Alend222]

​The last skill you max doesnt have any scaling​@ambiguousspotlightofinsani6764

[@Spielmister]

🎉 New episode

[@reosin2536]

What should I do if my mental boundaries are only enough to monitor the minions and the opponent on the line, one opponent in a team fight. I'm trying to control the wave, I set vision, but my attention span is not enough to look at the minimap. sometimes I look there and see the position of the champions. but I need to stop and think about the information. It doesn’t work that way, because you only have a couple of seconds to analyze minimap. I look at the map and immediately forget what I saw. I've been playing mid lane mages for over a year now and I still can't last hit with aa. in training I can finish off minions because that takes up all my concentration. with an opponent I have to keep an eye on the other player and I only lasthit half of wave and have to use abilities to farm and perma push in orfer to not lose cs. I score 1-1.5k in loldodgegame. After 1k my focus drops and i cant maintain consistent inputs. I forget flashing or using pots on a regular basis only remember when the fight is over. I can't use R/summoners timings too. I ping them in chat but i have no mental capacity to remember and use the information myself.

[@janwilczynski6010]

If you're lost in a regular game, then approach it like a child: load up practice tool and do whatever the F you want. Why? Because the priority is fun. All good things stem from it. Fun accelerates learning, fun grants positive thinking, fun deepens curiosity (invaluable in League). Jokes aside, really. Put some dummies, throw Brand Qs until bored, then Ws, then ults, then build him full AD because assassin items look fun, then kill all minions by autos only (why are they so strong, wtf?), then read the whole description of his passive. You think it's chaotic and doesn't do anything to your learning? Boo. As long as you have fun, it's vice versa: you suck up all you see, hear and feel without realizing it. Start thinking consciously on a League thingo only when child-playing with it gets boring. Don't overthink it. I'm a full-time overthinker and I assure you, in League intuition beats knowledge anywhere, anytime. Even what Challengers KNOW is worthless if they don't FEEL it. Good luck. I wish you fun in this game, it might save your life:D

[@ianwalker5169]

I play Bot lane and i’m consistently frustrated with my supports, i liked my supports better in silver than now in gold. My gold supports consistently play behind me and take no space and create no threat in lane or at least it appears that way to me. I feel like I win with extreme consistency if my team is even close to even. So I’ve learned to win games by just forfeiting the idea of winning lane even in strong matchups because my support doesn’t play to win lane. It works but it annoys the life out of me. Any advice?

[@ianwalker5169]

I think the most annoying part is the failure to punish miss-positioning by the opponents. I also can’t really initiate the punish because my support plays to far back to follow up on me punishing

[@2delegy]

20:30 I actually don't think it is that easy for karthus, he cant play botside because asol clears waves so fast and can follow with W and he loses hard to rengar invades early, and his botlane isn't ahead by a substantial margin. Karthus has to play topside but yorick is perma push champion so he has to look for dives or invading topside with yorick.

[@atomicchicken4453]

Rrrrraaaaaaaggghhhhjh I LOVE BBC LETS FUCKING GOO

[@DJ-se5pl]

@ 51 min they're talking about not taking fights and I really struggle with this as a tank/initiator bc I feel like I have to escort the team out. Should I just let them walk in without me. I swear the times I do not follow I just get flamed and my team gets wiped off the map. Maybe it's just I didn't do the typing and finish the holy trinity

[@jacksonmagas9698]

If you decide that you can't fight an objective for whatever reason you need to be vocal about pinging off and even typing "give". If they go in anyway you need to decide whether it is better to fully sac the fight and stay alive or to join them and try and make the unfavored fight work. And if you decide to let them go in than ignore the flame, you made the decision you thought was best and can reconsider after the game if it was actually correct or not.

[@arnovanroy3]

I know it’s nitpicky but grubs is on the scoreboard on the top next to towers. This is how I get my grubs info how else would you see this? Kind of weird 2 challengers coaches that talk about getting info don’t know this? But alright everyone can let one slip I guess.

[@pseudophi]

At the end of the day, League of Legends is a game; games are meant to be fun. I'd say spamming FF and wanting to exit the game is a warranted mental state when the alternative is sitting under turret collecting waves. This is just not why people play the game. Winning or losing is meaningless in that sense. I'd rather lose every game for the rest of my life if that entails I'm not sitting under turret collecting waves. This is a go hard or go home mindset that I respect regardless of whether or not its detrimental to the game outcome or not. But we all have our views. Finally I'm surprised you didn't mention jungling from behind. At the very least, when the mid laner is AFK under turret collecting waves, he is getting experience and gold. The jungler equivalent is sitting AFK behind base walls and being 4 levels behind the enemy jungler who is doing 12 camp rotations in the jungle waiting for the enemy to siege, which is even worse.

[@multicrogamer]

If actions don't have consequences, complexity of game reduces and becomes inherently mechanical. The fact that every champion has different power stages and playstyles makes leage one of most in depth games ever. Executing your gameplay is knowing every condition and stage of your champion and acting in accordance with this knowledge. Making comeback mechanics too strong will undermine champion power stages at his point remove the gold and exp from game completly. The reason that champions is strong / weak is the understanding of many concepts. Diminishing impact of gold and exp leads will totaly shift gameplay and game isn't balanced for that at this moment. If you game without 0 economics elements then league is not for you.

[@thevandenberger9772]

Trail blazer

[@vondoplays1630]

🐐 🐐

[@davidlion8781]

Make them sweat for their LP

[@garagavia]

#1 advice for playing from behind: Surrender Mute You can do this by dragging the surrender box out of the screen. It's a hidden feature, and extremely powerful

[@bonbarmandrink]

0/3/0 vs 3/0/2. You are in a bad spot even if you got equal cs.

[@garagavia]

Yes but in many circumstances the 3/0 person will have denied you a lot of gold and exp, they might take your tower and snowball the game. However if you're even cs and retain some pressure in lane with your tower up, sure you're behind but you still have options and you're still in the game

[@wsviper3232]

Bros playing asol saying I'm behind 😂 I swear us asol players think our champs hard

[@Mo11usq]

You get better at playing from behind by not FFing the game

[@satoiify]

First! :3