HOW GOOD IS COLORLESS IN CASUAL COMMANDER WITH KYLE HILL - PLAY TO WIN GAMEPLAY

This week we're joined by Kyle Hill for some casual commander
KYLE HILL - / @kylehill
DECKLISTS - www.moxfield.c...
PATREON - / playtowin
DRAGONSHIELD AFFILIATE LINKS -
The US LINK - www.dragonshie...
The EU LINK - www.dragonshie...
TOKENS/PLAYMATS/SLEEVES/COINS - www.playtowinm...
SHIRT DESIGNS - www.bonfire.co...
TCG PLAYER AFFILIATE LINK - shop.tcgplayer...
ALTERSLEEVES - www.altersleev...
LINK TREE - linktr.ee/play...

[@kylehill]

Any time boys, any time. I'm really happy with my Karn list and hope it gets some traction.

[@MeltinJohn2834]

Was cool to watch you loop their ass for the win! Good stuff science man

[@Lancebit]

Science, b*tch! Nice win. Had to take the top out of some of my casual artifact decks because it combos with everything.

[@simpleb645]

always happy to see you play with the lads

[@Medicinalmagic911]

Well played

[@wanny225]

@kylehill I challenge you to a Karn off!!!

[@freerunner1953]

My only issue with this channel is not uploading enough. I've seen every episode like 4 times at this point. I'm obsessed with this

[@gypsieking3280]

Tyler getting yelled at was hilarious. Love Kyle's chemistry with the rest of the team

[@NT_Escanor]

I love the reaction to the high value Solumn from a table of Cedh players

[@robertwhite1221]

I used to be against combos in casual, but I came around once my playgroup turned into who can make the best value pile. You need combo in the meta to combat the value decks. Aggro beats Combo, Value beats Aggro, Combo beats Value. Without Combo, Value rules the pod.

[@benbarclay4239]

Aggro doesn't beat combo tho, combo is typically just as fast and doesn't need to attack. the r/p/s of MTG is that Aggro beats control, control beats midrange, midrange beats aggro. Combo fights on a totally different axis, which is why cEDH decks often can't even beat a pod of 3 tuned casual decks - they're playing different games.

[@SundayBbq4786]

My play group has been playing cEDH constantly and went to Okotoberfest last year. As our most casual player, it's been nice recently for the others to want to slow things down and just hang out and play more casually. It's been a great reminder as to why we all started playing and having fun with each other to begin with.

[@TheBird2323]

I try to build my casual decks to have a primary wincon that isn't combo oriented. But I always make sure to put a combo or two in them because sometimes games can go for so long and they just eventually need to end.

[@notjohn2774]

Wonderful casual game and a lot of powerful cards, would love to see more casual games. As for combos in casual, I think they are definitely necessary as some casual games would go for 2 or 3 hrs or even more because of games stalling out, if you don't actively use tutors for the combo I think its perfectly okay

[@benbarclay4239]

This is a myth that combos are necessary to end long casual games. If games are going for 2-3 hours routinely, it's likely the decks can be built better, maybe the meta needs fewer board wipes, maybe people need to play a little bit faster. There are a number of factors that play into it, and making the solve be just throw a 2 card combo in you otherwise casual deck is a poor answer. It's not worth all the times you randomly draw into it early and end the game out of nowhere for the chance at drawing into it in a game that nobody is capable of ending for whatever reason. I also don't understand the 'if you're not tutoring for it it's fine' logic, what happens those games when you draw into both pieces by turn 3? Is that fine to drop the combo and end the game? A deck is as strong as it's strongest win condition. Lacking tutors or means to get to that win condition doesn't power down a deck, it just means it's a higher power deck that is not built well.

[@notjohn2774]

@benbarclay4239 This is just false. I understand the sentiment but having game enders dies not equate to bad deck building, it's no different then running a cratethoof in a token deck. Some decks just stall the game or dont have easy wins without combos and that's okay as long as every player knows it. My playgroup does the exact thing I described and sometimes it can be a Mexican standoff where it's hard to win in a conventional casual manner. I'm not saying it's a consistent issue but has definitely happened to every player at some point Also I never said anything about 2 card combos and I also said to not actively tutor them.

[@benbarclay4239]

@@notjohn2774 Well the difference is that createrhoof is a payoff for doing what your deck is meant to do - you've successfully built up a board of creatures and now you drop your Overrun and win the game, classic magic. Having random combos in the deck is not a payoff for playing the deck well, it just invalidates the whole game that came before it with an unrelated win out of nowhere. To be clear I love cEDH and combos, I just think that in casual they more often than not lead to saltyness and un-games, rather than being used at hour 3 to end a game everyone is tired of playing. One guy in my playgroup subscribes to this philosophy of 'put 1 combo in every casual deck to end games', and I don't think he's ever actually ended a long game with them (tbh we don't often have long stalled games), but there have been a number of times he lucked into drawing the combo early and the casual game ended out of nowhere on turn 5, leaving everyone else feeling cheated.

[@bkwilcox07]

Exactly, games have to end at some point. The only caveat might be if you can combo early in the game, hold off.

[@uselessnolagemtg]

Absolutely loved watching y’all jam casual commander. This was a fucking treat.

[@calinschnurer1133]

I think combos are great for casual. Just depends on Mana cost. I had a orzhov combo that let me get infinite angels and infinite death trigger with requiem angel and divine visitation. That 11 Mana to basically say, any creature that dies under my control becomes a 4/4 angel, and with a sac outlet and a payoff, that's game. But that's a minimum of 14 mana to do that and lots of parts to interact with

[@TheBraxton17]

Does Tyler have a deck list somewhere else online? And combos in casual are fine I think if you tutor for everything or draw insane amounts of cards via rystic study or ad nauseam is when you have to question weather or not they realize that there deck is built to combo off.

[@pjdietrich4470]

I feel like combos that aren't a+b combos are fine or if you restrict yourself to not tutoring combos are fine in casual edh especially if they are filled with cheddar cheese

[@TCG9777]

Who doesn't tutor for another combo piece in casual tho

[@treycuret]

Weird. I would much rather play a dedicated a+b combo deck than be killed by a "Whoopsie! I found it!" in an otherwise non-combo deck.

[@jman1241990]

There’s no henzie list posted in the moxfield link

[@brianpeterson7139]

Combo is totally fine. It just comes down to the power level. But regardless every deck need a win condition 😊

[@EndOfStates]

Just a heads up guys, the link to Kyle's channel in the description doesn't seem to work

[@mitchelfulcer2874]

"Is it still your turn!!!???" 😂 Love the vibe, and video as always boys! Digging the spread of content more and more!

[@Theorak]

Love combos, especially if they take a bit to set up, but also found joy and challenge in making specific commander's combo-free.

[@TCG9777]

Cedh - Casual Elder Dragon Highlander

[@jeramiahbarclayjr.7839]

This is my favorite part about Casual play. Every part of this video was great.

[@itsAnnaMargaret]

I have lots of feelings on combos in casual commander! It all comes back to everyone being on the same page and having a solid rule zero conversation.

[@nicholasbowdler9447]

I remember the last time you all played casual. It was 13 turns? Very interesting to see how y'all play casual.

[@Jimmythehead]

My favorite thing is the ITYSL references that are clearly just a part of y’all’s vocab just like me

[@joshuabillie5083]

6:40 had me dyyiing

[@jondavidenns]

I haven’t read all the comments, but I would say, I am currently playing a 50$ max no fast mana (except sol ring and dark ritual) k’rrik deck. I won via an infinite Gary combo on turn 6 last game I played. But it’s really about that turn 0 conversation on power levels. Each deck was supposed to be playing at an 8. I almost died to commander damage from one player, and the next guy almost infinitely stormed with urubrask the turn before I won. Is that “casual”? Idk. Is that evenly built decks? Pretty close. We want to see all the decks do their thing!

[@DrkNinja_]

As a man who plays high powered/optimized this was just shy of my power level, and is how any game goes in my pods! So to answer your question, I, the Johnny Combo Player, say ye to combos everywhere!

[@bryantan4228]

3:25 Okay so this is a mess Etali, Primal Storm casts during Declare Attackers. This means you should not do combat damage yet and Dylan should not have taken 5 because Etali died (which is especially relevant because it’s Vilis) Secondly, Etali was Blitzed and draws an additional card on death

[@synder__5311]

This kinda power lvl is honestly the most fun.

[@rafaelelena189]

I like how even the music was casual

[@nightalife]

My take on casual combos is that almost any combo is fine if youre not running tutors and its not a one card combo. Also be upfront with "hey this card goes infinite with something" when you cast it

[@LucRice]

6:41 the Tim Robinson reference😂😂😂

[@LucRice]

11:05 another one

[@thedarkwanderer5260]

I always love watching these in my spare time

[@therealax6]

I'd say the power level was fine! Sure, it was on the higher end, but high-powered casual is a perfectly fine format to play, and definitely very distinct from CEDH decks. The combos are fine, really. The infinite combo from Kyle took forever to get into play, and two of the pieces just sat there unprotected for a while - maybe the table needed some additional removal, but the point is that it would've been perfectly interactible at any power level. And the Mindslaver combo is 10 mana per turn! That level of combo is perfectly fine, and the combos could easily be interacted with (if someone had the right pieces to do so).

[@nicklance4788]

Combos are necessary in casual commander. Some games get gridlocked with very few good attacks on board and someone needs to end the game. I have a couple combos in my zombie deck, and if I run into them the I run into them, but if I catch tutors then I’m working to build my zombies up and start swinging them.

[@clashcitycretin10]

Combos aren't a problem in casual. Hyper efficiency is a problem because it results in someone winning to fast and the rest of the table feeling denied a proper game. The game you posted is what I look for in casual. Interaction, synergy, a reasonable amount of turns, and being able to cast bombs that aren't aggressively costed enough to see play in comp formats.

[@Hexatomb]

Karn was my first edh deck and still my favorite. No one expects it and it's so fun to update every set....

[@eucoliptus]

I usually put 3+ piece combos in commander decks because I don't play combat oriented decks much. I don't run many tutors either. But if you don't have a relatively quick win con then you either get rolled by combat decks or you're in a control battle forever

[@bgeda]

Game was really emblematic of how finely tuned casual can be an absolute blast! Kyle continues to show he’s your kind of people, the chemistry is obvious. Thanks for all the content guys!!

[@askloglog]

3-4 card combos in casual are fine in our play group. We try to leave the 2 card combos to CEDH.

[@jessesandburg]

IS IT STILL YOUR TURN? My pods favorite phrase.

[@makesquash]

Your ITYSL references dont go unnoticed Cameron, I see you

[@kylehill]

FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS YOU DO

[@Chance801]

I always try and put one combo in my decks just so I do have a way of winning outside my other win cons. I also run few tutors so those combos don’t come up very often if at all.

[@zaclarocque-walker9103]

Glissa was the first mythic legend i opened, and the first edh deck i made when I heard about the format. She is still one of my most favorite decks. Love to see it. Gg everyone!

[@rogerrabbit132]

I feel combos are important in both Casual and cEDH.

[@10Pugz]

I think that to not in the sense of win fast more in the sense of have a option to win with some Commanders and to win agains value like life gain

[@moedark4390]

yes but so many cards in this game just arent casual , i.e. mind slaver

[@SqueezeBurger]

That Ren-Faire music bed is a chef's kiss to casual games.

[@CosmicGiggalo]

Tyler representing the casual crowd on this blessed day

[@oscarperezcame]

What a good game! Gotta say that both Etalis and Sheoldred are buuuusted

[@TheWaffleDad]

I really enjoyed the high powered but still casual play in this game!

[@SaltServingServo]

Kyle be like : You guys need to see this...gonna beat you with SCIENCE!! *blasts everyone to kingdom come with a giant laser*

[@chall3ng33v3rything]

I LOVE the ITYSL reference!

[@treycuret]

Sol Ring ✅ One player gets way ahead ✅ Board wipes resets game with players still at 35+ life ✅ Gimmick deck gets randomly screwed ✅ Person misunderstands a card that dramatically alters the game ✅ Phone comes out ✅ Player randomly wins with a combo ✅

[@ingolf82]

6:00

[@abuelovinagres4411]

As a Glissa player myself, I must say how disgusted I felt by seeing a Mindslaver on the table. I prefer convoluted infinite loops.

[@danmorgan7775]

Very entertaining game. I don't really mind combos in casual commander much at all since you tend to get in more games. It's the combination of tutors and infinite combos that to me stretches the definition of casual to its limit.

[@kenkokuten4887]

My favorite casual combo I've done is cultivator colossus with abundance. Doesn't end the game on the spot but you know have every land from your deck into play. Great fun combo I'm my Asie deck.

[@caige084]

I need the Henzie list!!

[@MrSuiSukE]

Le dot

[@dakotasnow5008]

I think it's fundamental to always discuss pre-game things with the public player base. Other than that I think combos are perfectly fine in casual given that a overwhelming amount of cards that have synergies can snowball into a combo

[@ThatOneGuy-fq5eo]

As much as I love your content, I think I love that berserk shirt just a smidge more. Keep up the good content !

[@Magidex]

Krrk probably doesn't belong in casual, even if you're really trying hard to attack with a lifelinker that grows. XD. Really, really love the casual games. Would absolutely love to see more! And on infinites, I think they're fine in casual if they're just, you know, in the deck somewhere. If the only thing you ever do is tutor for the combo every chance you get, every game you play, that sucks. But games do have to end, we're adults, we have lives. Can't be stuck in a game no one wins for three hours or some shit.

[@metalbrother2671]

I love Dylans shirt! fellow berserk bro over there :)

[@crimson808]

Where did you get that berserk shirt?

[@protoman0027]

Most of my friends enjoyed playing more casual decks than me, so I took out every infinite combo from my deck for about the past 6 years. Now that so many combos have been printed, I constantly run into the issue of not being able to play cards I like just because they combo. I also don't like having a combo out and having a rule 0 that you can only do it so many times. So i'm to the point where i'm just going to allow my decks to be more competitive and win on the spot because gimping myself has ruined my own fun.

[@egoish6762]

I normally keep a 4+ card combo in all my decks just so games can end through locked boardstates, if it wasn't a combo it would be who draws their overrun first. I tend to put increasingly complicated and interactable ones in as i go down in power level.

[@cashkujak7986]

Seein dylan sitting in the middle of the frame scares me

[@Metallicuz]

Fast mana and infinite combos, to me, go against what institutes casual magic. I think there was a casual episode on this channel before that said combos that win the game right then and there isn’t casual, and I agree with that. With that being said, this was a fun episode and you guys do a great job with your content. As long as it’s a good time, who cares.

[@remimonteil1467]

Hey guys ! May we have the Henzie decklist please ? 😁

[@The_PosterBoy]

Any chance of getting the other decklists? Only Kyle's is linked.

[@BAAWAKnight]

It can be pretty good. I've had some uttely stupid boardstates with my Butcher Koz deck (all 5 legal titans on the board, Blighty, and a bunch of other Eldrazi).

[@Taphosthewarlock]

At 13:58 Dylan couldn't have put the land in play as Kyle had a ward of bones and only 6 land.

[@seanvanharen2100]

If my casual deck has a combo or two in it I just put few and/or restrictive tutors in the deck so it's only game is not just to immediately go for to combo

[@alanoftheinfinite]

Gotta be the most efficient casual game I’ve seen in a while 😂

[@boricua536]

I try to include at least one combo into my decks, regardless of whether the deck is designed for synergistic strategies or not. As much as I enjoy EDH, being stuck in a single game for over 3 hours does not sound fun for me. As for casual play, I keep one precon and never upgrade it.

[@bobthecar8656]

I dont see the decklist for henzie in the moxfield link. Do yall have the list accessible?

[@RedRaistlin]

The link to Kyle's channel (or whatever its supposed to link to) seems to be broken FYI

[@supermassivi1995]

I would like to look at Tyler's Henzie list. I also play Henzie in casual and it's my pet deck, I see a gameplay with Henzie I like it before it even starts

[@ivernedit]

We like combos in casual as long as they aren’t before turn 5 and don’t need one card and your commander to work.

[@lokifeyson]

combos are part of the game, casual or not, gg was fun watching

[@adamsjn]

I think combos are ok in most casual pods (but it all depends on the Rule 0 discussion). I am especially OK with it if it requires multiple cards, expensive cards, or is a bit more difficult to pull off. A cheap 2 card combo doesn't really fit for casual games in my opinion. Great game. As someone who has, and loves, a colorless artifact deck, it was awesome to see that one do well and pull out a win.

[@blakerobinson4198]

Casual commander is too broad of a term to say combos are good in all games. It entirely depends if people are playing janky, thematic, or just are not in the mood for combos. But in a meta where everyone is playing tuned, stronger decks, combos are perfectly fine. I think this is especially true when playing something like colorless or mono blue which has a tough time winning during the combat step. I have 45 casual decks, and only about 8 of them have infinites.

[@TheSpunYarn]

Not my edgiest take but I don't mind combos is casual EDH as long as I'm told ahead of time. I don't personally run them, it's more fun for me if I'm really pushing what "fair" means

[@espenpeterson4387]

Cam, what do you have on your phone? Some games obviously. A medieval game obviously.

[@lilwigese1]

Aww man the deck list I wanted to see isn't available 😢😭

[@graefx]

My group is casual but we all sorta recognize that games still need to end. Loops turning on after t6 or so feels like "this game has gone on too long anyway" because thats usually the hour long mark anyway

[@Swumblegore]

What happened to the Henzie decklist?

[@ANeonGenesis]

Combos in casual is fine, as long as they're not overly compact. That takes a lot of the style factor out of it. Though I do not like to see a deck be able to consistently pull them off before turn 7. That just feels like a sweet spot in casual, at least for me.

[@joshuajohnson1448]

Casual combos: I feel they should be at least 3+ cards that do not include the commander. Even at that, a lot of casual tables do not appreciate the idea of losing on the spot to a loop that drains the table or mills everyone ect. At least at my lgs

[@SvviftDeath]

This video is a great example of the current meta of what is actually considered casual. My friend would see this game and say none of this was casual. I know the difference but he is still stuck in the mindset that casual is what it was 10 years ago when we were in college. Commander was just becoming popular and it was a year before the first precon commander decks. He doesn't want the game to change and I get that but he has to understand that it has changed and he is going to have to accept that.

[@xinyuanchen7853]

I think Tyler should've drawn six saccing OG etali to the disciple, one extra from Blitz I think combos are fine since games have to end eventually. Personally I have a rule for myself that combos are only 3+pieces in my casual decks, otherwise I'd just play cEDH haha

[@OnyxANZ]

Combos in casual are great. I like all of them except for thoracle combos and underworld breach combos. I still run thoracle, but I don't play the combo. Casual for me is being as high power as I can be with more creativity with the goal of "I just want to do my thing" rather than playing the single best cards for a deck like cedh.

[@kevincurran1250]

Tyler do have a decklist?

[@starchaser6024]

Seeing a charcoal Diamond almost made me retch for real

[@Glizzygoblin-]

Any chance I could peek that henzie list 👀

[@dondariohabibi5118]

Decklist for HENZIE PLS its not uploaded

[@badenglish_84]

Infinite combos are fine in casual imo. It's more about the speed at which you assemble them that makes it questionable. Still gotta be able to close out a game and turn the corner.

[@connortillman7129]

Where is that henzie list, Tyler?!?

[@TheHound402]

Aethefflux Laser was said with a very Ignignogt from Aqua Teen inflection.

[@TheHound402]

Knew it!

[@shamayk0]

Every week we play 5-6 hours in a casual format. We manage to play 4-5 games. We play without endless iterations.

[@damnjekyll]

Combos are a necessary Plan B for any 2 hour format. 😅

[@OGTahoe3]

Combos are perfectly fine in casual. Tutoring for every piece is where casual becomes cedh imo

[@fallensoul2407]

I think combos are fine in casual. What turns those combos cedh is having tutors in your deck to assemble things in such an easy way. Tutors are what make cedh, cedh, not so much the combos.

[@jacobhawkins6612]

I like combos in casual edh. When I use them I want then to be at least 3 cards or funny.