Fates Cruel Game: Why Destiny in TTRPGs is a Dangerous Concept (Critical Role and Dimension 20)

[@rantdmc]

I think Vax's story is even more moving and marvellously roleplayed by Liam when you realise that at the time Vax offered his life to the Raven Queen for the sake of Vex, Liam was dealing with a family bereavement. That's one of the reasons (I believe) why Matt is close to tears when he narrates Vax's farewell in the final episode of the campaign, and tells Liam that Vax's mother is waiting to greet him in the realm of the dead. Liam's decision to offer Vax's life defined the whole campaign. It was imo a noble and heroic acceptance of his fate as determined by the Raven Queen

[@Duriel123]

I've been watching CR from the beginning.. I loved Vox machina. This insight is completly new, and made me love them even more... Damm. Carry your wisdom 😉

[@PlayYourRole]

Man that is such a good piece of information, thank you for sharing it

[@ChemicalVelocity]

i was just thinking about this last night, in the context if Vax as he is now were to become a Celestial Warlock patron; Imagine you’re Vax and you gave your life in the fight against vecna, obviously to save the world and because your matron demanded it of you but naturally, because it always shakes down to the thing that made you become a paladin in the first place; to save your sister and protect your friends, and once you die you’re like “this is it, i guess. this is what my destiny was leading to.” you think now you’re just Her guard dog on a leash. But what if one day a scared child tangled up in the threads of fate-just like you once were-reaches beyond the divine gate in a plea for help and you realize that this- this is how you can help from the other side. This is not the end of your fate.

[@harrycunliffe1914]

I genuinely think that the game helped him get through his grief

[@emmabeckett6451]

Also Matt had stated in an interview (I think it was on Talks, but I’ve only seen it in complication clips obvs) that the reason he made Vax “fate touched” was because Liam was going through so much personally and he wanted to give him something nice. Their friendship on CR is such a beautiful thing

[@heykak]

another "wrinkle" to the "take me" scene is that Liam has mentioned that he was fully prepared to lose Vax then and there, not that she would "do nothing" and everything seemingly going back to normal

[@Specter211]

I had this Wizard who became a Chronomance after being shot gunned through time by a failed experiment so much that a deity had to intervene to stop him because he was finding too much out about possible realities of the future, slapped the haunted one on him based on what he saw... his name was Prophet Caelus, and he died in the final fight... made me really hate how fate worked but love it at the same time.

[@rachelthornton4442]

I am obsessed with Neverafter and I’m so glad it is starting to get some love. Every character is so funny but so compelling; it is such a wild, existential treat of a story.

[@TheBirdOfParadox]

I also think its interesting to see why these characters accepted their fate. Vax motivations are rooted in protecting his sister, after all, he offered his life to the raven queen in exchange for hers. First it was a dept to be payed before he came to understand the purpose of the Champion. For Gerard, I believe its a little less obvious, cause his character is often played for commedic relief. But if you really have a good look at it, he used to be a little rude as a ten-year-old, and which kid isnt rude sometimes at that age. That scene of him getting almost mauled to death by a dog, that a child pleading to just go home. So I think when he meets Red and Pinnoccio, he sees much of himself in them. Life was deeply unfair to him and he was never able to escape it, but maybe he can give them a little bit of a better future. He never would have been able to if he never were cursed to be a frog. He doesn't want them to hate themselves and think they deserved it, and in doing so he realizes that he needs to lead by example on that. Plus, as everything in Neverafter, it comes back to agency. Right in that frist clip you showed, Elody mentions that Gerard acts like his life ended. He turns the story of "The Frog Prince" into "The Princess and the Frog", he makes her the main character with the most agency. It ties directly into the theme of agency in stories and also the responsibility of telling stories, which is directly in keeping with the whole campaign. It trancends the characters and is just as much about the players and storytellers as a whole.

[@mentalrebllion1270]

My dm recently introduced a prophecy that outlines that our group is important to the empire (yes, we play in Wildemount). The thing is, our group has heard word of two contradictory prophecies. One says we will save it, one says we will condemn it to ending. This has led to some in character discussions on fate and prophecy. Some are leaning into “well if it’s one or the other, I get to choose.” Some are going with “one of these are wrong and I don’t know which.” Some are “I will just buck at both of these because I don’t care which is right or wrong, just don’t like the gods dictating things.” Or some variation of these. In my case I decided to lean into my scholar philosophy my character has, and the perspective they have from an elven life span (and also to that culture) and have a whole other pov for my character. Namely, my character is in the camp of “it doesn’t matter if it’s wrong or right, the Empire is on a fast track to its own destruction with or without us. What’s more, these two fates are simultaneously correct in many ways, as the empire must change to avoid obliteration, but doing so also means they will not be what they once were, something that can be viewed as its own form of destruction depending on what needs to change and who is responsible for the current condition it’s in.” So yeah, that’s my character’s pov they have brought up. Make no mistake, they are aware that the very existence of this prophecy means someone out there believes it and that alone will force the group to play a role in the fate of the Empire, and has said so. I’ve managed to convince the rest of the group of the same most recently too, regardless of their view on the prophecy itself. It has been an interesting story element in our game. And what it comes down to, is that it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, only that it exists, and even exists in multiple forms. It doesn’t even matter if it has ties to the gods and the strings they pull or not either. Either way, we must stick together and figure out what we want in all of this and how to achieve it. The general consensus has been to understand the war better, what triggered it, what’s behind it, who is moving what and where, and who is loyal to who and who is only pretending. A ton at play. I think it helps though that, while we do some combat (and fairly difficult at that), we are more oriented around rp, storytelling, and intrigue. If there is a solution that doesn’t require combat, we will give it a shot (depending on how in character that solution is). And this I think is a good way to use prophecies and fate in your game. Make it so that agency is still there, but the very idea of fate or prophecy can change things.

[@quinnoneill7536]

Who ordered a yappachino?? 😭😭😭

[@ramenwolf13]

this's really cool and you've taken a fantastic approach to the idea of it!! next time I play I wanna incorporate this kind of thinking! your groups lucky to have you it sounds like you've provoked some REALLY interesting and out of the box angles to this, wishing you all the best with your campaign bet it will be a blast

[@mentalrebllion1270]

@@ramenwolf13 aw! Thank you for the compliment. That’s so sweet! 🥰 🥹 I do enjoy creating thought provoking characters and stories if I can. It’s the writer bug in me mixed with my love of anthropology and so so so many other subjects about how people think and why and what they create from that. So this compliment genuinely makes me very very happy and I love that it inspired you for your future creation! I will say this, my approach is probably easiest with a game that is more focused on roleplay, storytelling, and/or intrigue. Basically, the type of fellow players you can talk with, and have fun talking with, about the human condition. That’s usually the way I’m able to tell who is most compatible with this way I play. I don’t mind many other ways of playing, I’m adaptable, but my bread and butter, where I have fun in the hobby, is the storytelling/roleplaying/intrigue pillars of play and being able to creatively collaborate and communicate with each person at the table. I’m not just making my characters for me, I’m also making them for my audience, the rest of the table, so we can all enjoy a fun story together and bring out the elements in each other that we most want to play into. But that aside, thank you very much for telling me this and the compliment. It means a lot. I do think my groups agree with you. Having 6 separate tables to play at a week is a pretty good indicator I think that I’m doing something right that each table enjoys about my play style (yes, I banned myself from applying to anymore games and will let each game play out before even considering another campaign going forward). And lastly, so far so good on the campaign! We just defeated the literal demon god trying to possess our party monk and that was definitely a blast though I ended up with maybe 7hp and no more resources other than swinging a sword. Lol! But yeah! Should be fun! The next plan is for my character to sit down and craft spell scrolls with some of the casters in the group since I have the proficiencies and they have the skills. Honestly I can’t wait for some shenanigans. I play lots of fey characters for a reason 😇🤣 But again, thank you!!! (Apologies for the long reply, I am just really excited about your comment is all).

[@emilyrauch4776]

Wife Play Your Role is such a delightful addition. I love her

[@kelpiekit4002]

"Hero. You are fated to face this great evil and bring peace to the land" The level 1 hero chock on a fish bone and dies. "Damn it! Find me a hero who doesn't eat fish"

[@soeffner6833]

Firstly, I love the depth of thought you put into these things. Rpg's can be a good 'ol hack and slash, but they can also be an exploration of self. True 'fate' lies in the balance between self and other. When one becomes damaging switch to the other for a while. In the middle lies true purpose. Rpg's allows us to explore these extremes as heroes and, if taken, gives us the chance to be more self aware irl. Best

[@sethtruesdale1848]

Are you familiar with the TTRPG "through the breach"? It kinda revolves heavily around fate to the point that a decent chunk of character creation is more or less choosing how your character is fated to die

[@Drag0nMast3rEndr]

the intro was F-in’ hilarious! 🤣🤣🤣

[@PlayYourRole]

It was a ton of fun to edit but LORD did it take longer than it should have

[@Drag0nMast3rEndr]

@@PlayYourRole Idk about you, but I would definitely be giggling & chuckling to myself the whole time if **I** were to edit that 🤣

[@GameBob]

I love your content, It's criminal it doesn't all have 100k views every video

[@joshuaharmon6684]

I made Fate/Destiny a player feature by giving the Helmet of Fate to the wizard.

[@rockassassin64]

Fate is a really good game you guys should try it if you haven't

[@tarvoc746]

So one thing almost all role-playing groups get wrong about Fate is how it was tied to concepts like Duty and Honor and even Law in premodern societies, and how these kinds of societies were far less pragmatic and utilitarian about these kinds of concepts than we are today and took them far more seriously. Near the end of the Saga of Ragnar Lodbrok, Rangnar, then king of Denmark and Sweden, gets drunk in his mead hall and swears that he will conquer England with only two ships. He's the Sovereign and his word is law, so he is now honor-bound before both gods and men - or in other words _fated_ - to actually attempt to do it. He simply cannot refuse to abide by his own words without losing all credibility as a ruler. His attempt obviously goes terribly wrong for him, which is likewise fated. His last words obligate his sons to avenge him in a similar manner (which they do by raising an army and properly conquering most of England except for Wessex). You don't see this level of amor fati with TTRPG characters all that often, because it's not that easy for modern men to wrap their heads around anymore (we're practically used to politicians going back on their _sober_ words for "pragmatic" reasons). As a result, most TTRPG groups are just modern characters walking around in a vaguely medieval-flavored setting. But maybe this too is fate.

[@critespranberry8872]

I feel directly called out with that intro

[@rockassassin64]

I want you to larp that. I mean that uses oddly enough the fate system. I play a character who is a patron whitch of aphrodite. I At one point had three lovers who had died essentially One right after the other. One diamondbackstory because my character hates being alone shortly after that Started a relationship with another woman who was killed by. I guess the BBEG. But it's a little more complicated than that giving what this game is. And then she ended up with another. Person who was actually awful to her and some of the other PC's Killed them without my knowing. I asked aphrodite if aphrodite if I was cursed. And she responded with the hardest line I have ever been in. " You will fall in love a 100 Times and you will have your heart broken a 101" I thought that meant she had cursed me. That it was a part of taking the deal. To become her witch. The next game she clarified that this wasn't anything she did to me. It was just something she knew about me and why she wanted me to be her. Which in the first time because she loves the drama. Me realizing that it had gone from a curse to a prophecy. Was kind of deflating. Put in a good way for the character like. I enjoy the drama. But she started going from I can fix this too. It's inevitable that I will never have the life I want.

[@malezar5444]

at 19:43 who are the problematic parties? I have only heard of Orion who did some terrible things and he wasn't around by the time Talks Machina became a thing

[@PlayYourRole]

Brian W. Foster. If you'd like to know more, Google is your friend, but I'd like to respect CR's wishes

[@malezar5444]

@@PlayYourRole of course, and thank you

[@MrClarissacain]

Well, sir, if you're baked a lil over 4 hours every day, you're a 20lb turkey.

[@elminsters_big_naturals]

If you're not vibing with Liam's characters so much, why are you making videos about them? There are so many other CR characters 🤔

[@hartssquire9386]

Woah woah woah what did I miss with talks machina?!?!

[@PlayYourRole]

It was removed, as well as all other content involving Brian W. Foster. If you'd like to find out more, googling his name will quickly bring up some results to explain.

[@ummacnai]

TL;DR Brian W Foster is now persona non grata. Break up with Ashley and behaving poorly since then.

[@brewdaly1873]

​@@ummacnai that's a bit of an understatement. I'm pretty sure she got a restraining order against him because of abuse.

[@ummacnai]

@@brewdaly1873 For sure, why I marked it TLDR. If they want more info, there's -- a lot out there.

[@jamespearsoniii914]

You the thumbs up just for the intro 😂

[@optimus2200]

is your wife just a video wrecking storm XD

[@rommdan2716]

Wait... This it's NOT about FATE dices...

[@PocketKanin]

the intros are just confusing and overwhelming…

[@jmckay2998]

I love your videos but it’s so annoying that the first minute or two of every one is you messing around. Get to the good stuff!

[@ehidk9364]

Impatient viewers try to let a youtuber enjoy what they're making challenge (Difficulty: IMPOSSIBLE)

[@brewdaly1873]

Let me introduce you to this amazing, groundbreaking technology called "fast forwarding." I know, you're thinking "isn't that something you used to do with VCR cassette tapes?" Well my friend, thanks to the magic of science, we've brought this old technology into the modern age! Why, you can even go both forwards and backwards in 10 second intervals with just a simple tap of your finger! It's simple and easy, and for only $89.99 or ten easy payments of $19.99 I can teach you the miracle of this space age technology!

[@Snaitycake]

A lot of us really like that part though. Maybe there’s a way Jay can mark on the video when he starts the content? (I’ve seen it on some videos where they can cut up and label video chunks)

[@mac_sour]

@@Snaitycake i can agree with this. me personally i don't care for the intros because i just care about the subject matter in the video rather than the personality (my personal opinion, don't attack me fanatics) but cutting the video up into chapters would be great. to help skip the sponsors too.