Pogačar Faces TdF Doping Scrutiny After He Beat Pantani’s Climb Record

[@Nosh_Feratu]

I wont say 'yes he is/no he isnt doping', but its absolutely right to ask questions and scrutinise, especially when you consider the team he's on, the management, and their horrendous doping record... to be honest, NOT asking questions is the real sin. No single rider is bigger or more important than the sport, whatever the fan boys say.

[@slomo7070]

Given history, over many decades, we should accept the spectacle that is cycling. It hasn't changed, nothing is new, this is how it has always been. And what a show it is!

[@TheBassallyear100]

just to be sure, you're pondering the exact same questions of Vingo also for the exact same reasons, right? i have zero faith that the peleton is clean, any of it. the biological passport makes it far too easy, especially when coupled with TUE exemptions and altitude training excuses.

[@Nosh_Feratu]

@@TheBassallyear100 every rider. Like I said "no single rider is bigger or more important than the sport'...this also means that no rider is above suspicion.

[@Nosh_Feratu]

@@slomo7070 nah. Ive watched cycling since 1986, I absolutely accept that these things go on, but turning a blind eye is as good as condoning it, and I wont do that, if you really loved the sport you wouldn't condone its abuse and humiliation either.

[@OM-sb2bd]

Brah, he’s doping. They’re all doping! The stubborn obtuseness and intellectual dishonesty around this topic makes me 🤮.

[@denisspratt926]

I think it is a bit weird that experts and journalists keep talking about Pogacar, Vingegaard and others that do very good are doped. And then the same people talk about Merckx being the greatest cyclist of all time. But they forget to mention he was caught and suspended 3 times for doping in a era where there wasn't that much testing.

[@maxwellmcdowell3744]

So true. Let's please face the facts of pro cycling.

[@denisspratt926]

@@maxwellmcdowell3744 i’m not saying Pogacar or any of them are using doping at the moment. We’ll find that out sometime in the future. But i am saying that they can’t jugde someone that hasn’t been proven to use anything illegal when they still talk about others that has been proven guilty multiple times at the best ever.

[@alexandernys9314]

Well, there's several reasons for that : one of those positive tests is considered dubious, because it came from a 'tip' from a direct competitor, testing wasn't terribly accurate, and most importantly: doping of that time did not give the extreme advantages or risks that it did from the late 80's to the Armstrong years. Doping wasn't a mortal sin as much in that time, because it wasn't as impactful, so mostly a "naughty you, you've been disqualified!". Later on, with blood doping/Epo some athletes actually died from it. That's the biggest reason why.

[@denisspratt926]

@@alexandernys9314 Merckx was still using drugs though. He was caught 3 times. Once was as you said a little dubious. But one of them was by the Belgian cycling federation. They wouldn’t have done that to their own rider if it wasn’t true though.

[@justinstephenson9360]

What we know about Merckx and drugs, the first failed drug test was almost certainly a frame job, the only issue being how involved were the Italian authorities and organisers of the Giro, the second failed drug test was an unfortunate mistake made by the team doctor and the relevant drug was later removed from the banned list because it does not have a performance advantage. The third failure was definitely Merckx's fault, he knew what he was doing

[@nischleranton5665]

Please look at the video from GCN. They tested the original bike from Pantani against a Pinarello Dogma up a climb in UK. Time difference only one second! Don’t believe that Pantani used only heavy scrap!

[@Alessandro-xy7js]

The time difference was 2 seconds, BUT the presenter says that he puts average 10 w more on the bianchi! Go to rewatch if you don't believe me (I just did). So, it's fair to say that modern equipment give athletes an actual advantage

[@mattstidston8722]

Yes they do give an advantage, but not that big of an advantage 10 watts of savings on a new bike shouldn’t mean that all your times in the tour should be the fastest ever. The doping era should be the fastest times in history. People haven’t evolved since then and bike technology isn’t good enough to beat the doping times. The rider is the most important aspect of biking.

[@Alessandro-xy7js]

@@mattstidston8722 i can't disprove what your saying but either you can't prove it. BUT I think that like every other sport, all the techniques, the gears, the training methods, the alimentation, the science in general has made progress. Probably in those years everyone was doped but also yes, people now have the chance to beat old performances, generally speaking

[@Nephiism]

Pantani made the climb alone from the beginning, whilst pocacar made it with strong leads

[@beefkd]

it's not possible to pedal 7W/kg for 40 minutes naturally, will you guys finally fucking understand that for once just like you don't lift 260kg above your head without enhancement just like you don't run

[@Bikes-guitars]

Interesting, GCN Did this exact test, using a Bianchi Mega Pro which was Marco Velo’s Race bike and compared it to a modern bike, they were shocked at how good the old bike was, and in comparison the modern bike was only a couple of seconds faster! Not minutes faster!

[@urbanjungle9600]

It’s not just the 7w/kg it’s the ability to push out these numbers off the back of accumulated fatigue not just in a stage but over several weeks.

[@rof8200]

They've found some way to manage inflammation and muscle damage

[@vantarpon6849]

The peloton is also consuming 120g+/hr of mixed carbohydrates. Glycogen depletion impacts accumulated fatigue/recovery.

[@primpressraul]

And Jonas beating everyone in the TT last year by 1:50?! Come on guys.

[@tobiasyndestad1518]

Only 1:38. It was a really good day😊

[@mickelkobeck7376]

@@tobiasyndestad1518 Pogi has had a "really good year".

[@jou3708]

Pogi is EVERY 2024 race is like Jonas ONE race in 2023. Yes, sure he is clear😂

[@mickelkobeck7376]

@@jou3708 Jonas fanboi's suck...lmao at you. Pogi is the NEW CANNIBAL

[@ricobohm7781]

Jonas faced a lot of questions after that as well, dont think the situation is any different

[@janinecarlos1718]

I lived through the Lance Armstrong era so I will always have a healthy skepticism in cycling. If Pogacar is doping then we have to believe all the top riders are too-Remco, Jonas, Matthieu, etc. if so, we are once again in an era of massive doping. Can’t say I’m there yet but I won’t rule it out.

[@davidd1492]

I find it humorous that there are all these question marks over pogacars numbers, a rider that had the perfect lead in to the tour. Yet no question of Jonas that had a collapsed lung,to name just one of his injuries and Remco with a broken collarbone. If any rider should be questioned it would be Vingegaard in my opinion . What were his numbers that pogacar only put 1.08 into someone coming back from his injuries.?????

[@dgenerationx5855]

this.

[@oldmanbucksaw]

I'm old enough to remember how quickly folks jumped to defend Lance.

[@GonzoJohnny]

Many people are stupid/ignorant but fans take it to an all new level of stupidity and ignorance.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

I was defending after . Because all of them are dirty.

[@sandydennylives1392]

@@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed I was defending during, 'cos I was dumb

[@richardharris8538]

I started racing in 1962, when the sport in the UK was still all about time trials at standard distances on flat courses. I started winning club events in 1963, and I was aware that people in my club and other local area clubs were suspecting me of cheating, although no one accused me to my face. I recently came across a photo from 1964 of my club's dinner, dance, and prizegiving, when I was club champion I was standing next to the guest of honour, and she towered over me. The rest of the award winners were situated to the left and right of us. I looked like a little kid, and it really hit home why it must've seemed that I was cheating. I can say from experience, it's quite corrosive for someone when it's assumed that one must be cheating. Pogacar has been through all the protocols, so let's wait until actual evidence emerges, if it should ever do so, before thinking the worst of him.

[@petyrkowalski9887]

I agree. Lets wait and give him the benefit of the doubt. Since the Armstrong era, they have rigorous testing and blood passports so cheating is super difficult.

[@matmerah3700]

​@@petyrkowalski9887But they have never tested Armstrong positive for anything.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

There's guys that go to the gym and take take steroids to gain an inch on their arm. Cycling give somebody way more reason to do it. That's why the ones that are pointing the finger most of the times are the ones doing it. The new thing now is testosterone therapy lmfaooo00. Ohhh I'm not cheating my doctor gives me vitamins

[@xanzpatrie]

​@@matmerah3700 He tested positive in 1999 and was given a pass by UCI because they wanted to milk his cancer Cinderella story.

[@savagepro9060]

Pogacar is NOT breathing hard, or even sweating, riding over the finish line . . . smiling. If you're gonna dope, at least, Fake it!

[@pedrodiogo4807]

Of course he was sweating and breathing hard just like Jonas, as for smiling well who wouldn't be smiling while winning Tour stages?

[@johngillis7625]

This is exactly what lance implied. He Pog has to chill a bit or he will get “busted “

[@savagepro9060]

@@johngillis7625 the fame and fortune is getting to his frekin head . . . he WILL get busted

[@nnbegin2965]

@@savagepro9060 so stupid!!!

[@savagepro9060]

@@nnbegin2965 oh, thanks

[@dar1e]

The question was not which one is faster, but whether 7wkg is possible without doping. Nothing about equipment there

[@DutchDeutschlander]

The way Pog accelerated and distanced himself from his compatriots reminded me of the way Lance Juicestrong left people in his wake… does raise questions

[@petyrkowalski9887]

Just asking questions huh?

[@stephenmagee3766]

But Lance was dropping riders just as doped as he was. Silly to say he won because he doped. No he won as the strongest of all the doped riders.

[@hfaouzi4332]

Questions answered. When you go way faster than a junkie (Pantani) died of how much he doped, there's no mystery. He's on the good stuff

[@barriem5318]

@@stephenmagee3766Lance was using a motor as well

[@barriem5318]

And Cancellara with a motor

[@swites]

You ain't seen nothing yet. Wait till next year when hopefully we have a fully fit Jonas and Pogacar trying to drop each other. There is no way Jonas was 100% after 12 weeks and all those injuries and basically 2weeks off the bike at least. Just impossible physiologically! Pogacar broke just his wrist and wasn't 100% in 2023. So if Pogacar wasn't 100% with just a broken wrist, no way Jonas was 100% after breaking multiple ribs, puncturing his lung, and breaking his collar bone which are potentially life threatening injuries!

[@MP48]

Yet he said he was in too form. Go figure

[@johngillis7625]

Here is the thing. No other endurance sport has seen or realised this Much recent increase in performance W/kg. His increase is equivalent to dropping +5 minutes of marathon world record. Or cracking a 9 Second 100m dash.

[@SpeedBoosted911]

It's not 7 watt/kg for 40 minutes. It's this number at 2.8km altitude. It is around 7.3w/kg for 40 minutes at sea level

[@Pipe_JL]

Misinterpretation. According to you, he drove for 40 minutes at the top of the climb.

[@SpeedBoosted911]

@@Pipe_JL absolutely correct - these 40 minutes were all at altitude.

[@johngillis7625]

you are correct.....spot on. he is doped to the gills. likely a novel/new drug/method not on the banned list, but he doped non the less

[@marcusmaher-triskellionfil5158]

As a former sports journalist who covered cycling, triathlon, football, famous last words... "If it's too good to be true, then it usually is" 1. Cristiano Ronaldo's physique transformation. 2. Nicola Spirig 2 medals at 32 and 36 in the Olympics while hardly competing. 3. Tadgcar Podgcar not breathing and pushing 7 watts per kilo... You figure it out. ..

[@rEdHoTcHiLiPePPEr411]

I’m okay with going after Tadej as long as we don’t forget about Remco and Jonas. They legitimately crushed all their numbers lmao. If the issue is watts per kilo they were all close to 7 watts per kilo…

[@martinhelgren]

Former Danish pro rider Brian Holm tested his old 90's bike against a new state of the art racer on an airport runway. On flat ground the modern bike was more than 10 secs pr kilometer faster as far as I remember.

[@savagepro9060]

AND, remember, Pantani was doped to the gills when he did what he did! Hmm🤔🤨

[@FlyingPastilla]

Pantani HAD to be doped given the wildly inefficient way he was riding.

[@thiscocks]

@@FlyingPastilla 🤣

[@spieler440]

Of course they are doping. Does everyone think it just stopped after the Lance era?

[@Phat-rj3jo]

Exactly, and some love to attribute the advancement in equipment, nutrition, training, and etc, but guess what, doping advances too!

[@leoturgenov7440]

@@johnnycab8986 post covid was also the era where high-carb intake became mainsteam/ubiquitous, which does complicate things. 100g/hr vs maybe 30g/hr pre covid does make a really big difference...

[@orsations]

@@Phat-rj3jo Dope!

[@user1qaz2wsx3edc]

Vingegard pedals and bobels like he drank a bottleof wine.

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

@@leoturgenov7440 On one of Victor C's videos in the recent past, he showed the bagful of sugar he dumps onto his oatmeal in the morning. I would be worried about some type of insulin shock/type 2 reaction doing that, even given his very highly trained physiology, and cellular metabolic systems, and him 'burning' it all up during his insane training session.

[@maxwellmcdowell3744]

Didn't Lance pass all his doping tests, too

[@christerlundgren3805]

He payed off the keypersons. Known fact. UCI, TDF all pockets was lined😂

[@markc5999]

No, the positives were just covered up

[@FoobsTon]

​@@christerlundgren3805 Exactly, the conspiracy was endemic. You'd have to believe the same if you're saying the current riders are doping.

[@mctrials23]

If you know anything about that time you would know that the anti-doping measures were barely even a joke.

[@barriem5318]

It was the Hein Verbruggen era of the UCI

[@petyrkowalski9887]

L’Equipe wouldnt be saying this if say, Roman Bardet had won the tour.

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

Given how long it's been since there was a French Grand Tour winner (let alone THE Tour), sometimes I think that they are the only ones NOT doping to the proverbial gills. 😉

[@greglunderstedt3898]

The boundaries of performance are pushed further by the advancement in medical and pharmaceutical trickery. Everyone rides top spec bikes/equipment… everyone trains top spec regimes… not everyone can access the top doping specialists…

[@Hephera]

oh my god STOP BRINGING UP "MODERN EQUIPMENT" WHEN TALKING ABOUT WATTS/Kg! equipment has nothing to do with how much power a cyclist can exert! it simply makes that power translate into more speed! power numbers are a measure of the cyclist themselves and have absolutely nothing to do with the equipment theyre using. How do so many professional cyclists and cycling content creators keep making this incredibly basic mistake???

[@calumramsaybrown]

They aren't talking about actual record power, it's an estimate. The efficiency of the equipment is a factor that would change the output of the equation used. This may or may not be something they changed between the two comparisons.

[@stuartmclean3843]

100% correct there 👍

[@kraatshenk7665]

Shorter cranks and saddle tilt?

[@oliverlennard]

@@calumramsaybrownthe estimate takes the equipment into account and would differ if you inputted pantanis equipment

[@milkbunnies]

What are you … a 15 year old girl? OMG

[@azmathg1371]

I agree with the statement that the playing field is leveled for all racers, but from the opposed perspective from Jimmi's : I assume all the top pros are using something. In the world of PEDs, new molecules are created every month or so, and testing for them appears a few years later (it is an arm race, every side permanently compete to be on top of the other). If you do not test for a specific product, you won't see it in the blood work. At this level of the sport, with the widespread following of the event and with the quantity of money invested, every team will try to be on top with every means necessary. It is part of the game. It does not only concern cycling though : olympics, football, rugby, basket, even golfing, etc. Does it lessen the spectacle quality and the performances realised? IMO no, because no one has an unfair advantage. I think many people unfortunately are 'naive' on this topic.

[@jono1457-qd9ft]

The real problem here is the lack of understanding of basic biology that you all share. You all believe in a superhuman metabolism that doesn't exist.

[@mctrials23]

Isn't that the idea of the blood passport. They don't have to specifically know what to test for as they track the markers that the doping would directly affect.

[@bendenisereedy7865]

Gas chromatography shows every alien molecule present in the blood. The equipment may not be able to name the molecule but a peak will show on the readout.

[@abhimawa1]

Athletes are getting better overtime, getting younger due to training, conditioning, nutrition and all the R&D’’s. It’s like comparingJohn McEnroe vs Carlos Alcaraz or Novak Djokovic. Look at today’s athletes. See how fit they are.

[@chriscopeland5672]

And doped to the gills

[@cracked229]

The same exact thing was said during Armstrong's hay day silly billy.

[@Silidons91]

you're forgetting the drugs lol. if they're not on drugs, and drugs work so well, where are the non-pro riders that use drugs who can beat their times? they are non-existent. just like how there aren't roided out gym rats outlifting "tested" olympic athletes.

[@abhimawa1]

@@cracked229 and you assume people are getting weaker than before? No improvement whatsoever? Only equipment matters?

[@danfuerthgillis4483]

@@abhimawa1 Riding $15,000 bikes is not going to make your legs faster it will the bike go faster but your power is the same weather it's a 7 kg or 15 kg bike. This is the key to doping it is the Kg/ weight ratio right now the new rage is lugworm blood doping and I can guarantee that all the top cycling teams are on it. This is a new era in doping since this blood doping is much safer and you do not get caught as it is a per stage doping regime so by the end of the stage there is no trace left as your body used up the lugworm hemoglobin.

[@mjaynz]

Some of us believe in unicorns and Santa Claus

[@DougMorley1]

The point missed here is that quite rightly 30 years ago cannot be compared with today's riders, however you can compare finishing times with riders in the same race today when stage winners say in a sprint finish look pretty good but overall winners, especially on hard climbs more than once- one rider in particular! finishing as though he had been out on club rides not exhausting stages. That rings sus' bells for me.

[@frankspeakmore7104]

If any of the top 10 finishers of the TDF got on a 30 year old push bike from the TDf they would still be quicker than me. I accept that bike tech has moved on. However he has been riding like that all year, even through the Giro, and shows no signs of slowing down or fatigue. I think they are all on something that is border line legal/illegal.

[@marcusmaher-triskellionfil5158]

Very true, as an ex Sports Journo, I dont know how Podgcar is doing it, but doing it he is I am in no doubt.. he comes across to me as a complete lab rat tbh...

[@oriolguriperez1166]

It is not just Pogacar, it is the whole UAE, they all are 2 steps ahead of everyone else in the peloton, you just have to watch how N. Polit destroyed the whole peloton in a long HC climb. It is extremely hard to belive, and then you look at the management and the only think you can do is laugh and not take the sport serious

[@dgenerationx5855]

Funny thing: here in germany the press is not asking any questions about politts super change since last year. but they are asking questions about pogi.

[@johngillis7625]

3:25 into video. There is a herd of elephants in the room. He is doping with a new/novel drug/method. We are also comparing to just 3-5 years ago, not 30 years ago. This is about w/kg not the bikes. He is doped!

[@cracked229]

I love how the same exact things were said during Armstrong's period. It's the tech (carbon became popular around 1989 in the peloton), training, nutrition etc. Same shit, different era. Lance was tested 500 times and never failed a SINGLE test lol.

[@leoturgenov7440]

thats not actually true, Lance tested positive for roids multiple times at the 99 tour. but he said it was some saddle cream he was using and so got off scot free.

[@cooldude.1811]

So L'Equipe is suspicious of Pogacar, but Marchand's extraordinary performances are totally legit.

[@aarondcmedia9585]

Mais oui!

[@andreaborgonovo3185]

This year Pogi found 20 watts more than last year when he got smashed at the TDF...his team UAE Postal is flying winning all and Pollit became a climber with 80 kg weight...better equipments might give you 2/3 watts and in the 90s bikes were light still...

[@davidandras5831]

better equipments give you 2-3 watts..:D jesus christ man are you living under a rock maybe?

[@andreaborgonovo3185]

@@davidandras5831 better equipments is for believers so they can buy a new bike faster...stage 19 arrive to isola2000 poggi has 30 watts more then jonas/ remco...not thanks to the Colnago aero bike...UAE postal

[@JeffSana30]

Just like with Armstrong, the UCI is protecting him because he’s the most marketable cyclist in the world right now. Sack the UCI!

[@tamasvarga67]

Jonas, after hís serious injury also beat Pantani’s record. So is only Pogi who needs to be protected?

[@JeffSana30]

@@tamasvarga67 The video was about Pogi, but Jonas definitely on something too

[@tamasvarga67]

@@JeffSana30 Still, the UCI is not just protecting him as you suggest but protecting the top 10-20-30. Ut’s kind of dishonest and pointless to talk him without mentioning the others. The playing field is level.

[@walterthornton1057]

This is exactly what Lance was referring to when he said Pog was making a big mistake blowing the doors off of everyone every chance he got instead of playing the long game. Pog gave them (the French papers) a reason to question him by showing how much more dominate he was then the rest of the field. Lance should know, he did the exact same thing and placed the spotlight on himself with his arrogance.

[@bobjackson3735]

Exactly!

[@sandydennylives1392]

Not at all, he never had the year long results of Pog

[@Alex-gl2dw]

They were all doping in Pantani's times, adding new tech and training regime can only get you so far, they're all doping nowadays too, just something else.

[@xiaoliuwu8539]

I am probably being cynical but I just find a hard time to believe that so many athletes have asthma... Now I just don't care about these news and assume that everyone is on something. They are just not officially banned yet.

[@tomertz1]

How do you know that they are all doping nowadays?

[@thiscocks]

@@tomertz1 They are destroying the times set by massively doped up riders!? People saying that's because of a 1kg lighter bike and tyres. Oh yeah and the all important aero handlebars. LOL

[@Cyclist-o6e]

I wouldn’t he suprised at all if Pogacar is cheating. He certainly rides like he is.

[@AM1780]

I wouldn’t be surprised if 60% of the Peleton were

[@Cyclist-o6e]

Yeah. He wouldn’t be the only one. One thing that Jimmi didn’t seem to consider is that doping techniques have also had 30 years to progress and get more effective.

[@FreeSpirit-gk7sn]

It's part of all professional sport's.

[@jou3708]

​@@FreeSpirit-gk7sn no, it is not part of all professional sports, and you perfectly know it.

[@user1qaz2wsx3edc]

Jonas can't even go straight on a time trial;to much juice..

[@smallrob19]

Great surprise seeing Ed on.. Big fan of his channel!

[@diederikwyffels6831]

There's one big difference with the Pantani/Armstrong timeframe. EPO was the name. Early 90s, anybody a bit close to endurance sports knew what this was, what this did AND the fact they couldn't detect it. Actually, I had a physiology exam with a well known professor in Leuven. My one exam question was : EPO, explain... I had a real nice chat and at some point, he said : what do you think is going to happen? Well, they are all going to take it, there will be some accidents, eventually they will figure out a way to detect it and then it will be chaos. Trust me : every TdF cyclist in that timeframe was using it. And everybody knew it. What is different now? Well, there's not really such a thing around. Given the way the world is today, with social media, youtube,... if something like this would be around, it would be very well known. Does that mean it's all clean? That's not what I'm saying... If the press would have had a little (very little) knowledge in the early 90s, they would have made it clear that none of that was clean. Are these guys giving a great show these days? yes they are. Are they about to die? no they are not. So enjoy it for now. And try some of the (legal) stuff they are doing yourself. Example : train to eat 90grams of carbs per hour, while cycling. It's perfectly possible, even for an amateur. And what a difference that makes...

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

One endurance athlete could possibly have a (UN)naturally high individual hematocrit/MAX VO2 than most others, further enhanced by altitude training/hypoxic tents/etc. I am guessing that was/is the whole purpose of the 'biological passports', to see if there are any insane 'spikes' in those metrics way above and beyond what was recorded as a 'baseline' for said rider? It does seem that even that check has some faults/'get arounds' if the teams and riders so desire. ??

[@scottwwsi]

think of the money involved, changing hands, doing everything they can think of to raise popularity of the sport....the drugs stay way ahead of the tests as well. naivete is a helluva drug.

[@cyclinghighlights]

Nice thumbnail tribute to our channel, thanks guys

[@savagepro9060]

Who else remembers when the French newspapers were 'attacking' Lance's performances?

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

I guess they viewed it the ultimate insult that a U.S. rider was so dominant, (especially one without a Gallic surname; i.e.; unlike LeMond), even though they were correct.

[@potemkine2000]

The thing is, that developping 7w/kg during 45mn is not human. Also material weight did'nt change that much since the 90's. Pantini's bike was about 7kg, so in mountain, we can't say that material explains the new records. I have also to recall that Armstrong never get controlled positiv during is career. I don't know why the new "prodigies" could not use the same method used twenty years ago. Dopping must have improved as well as the material in time, don't you think ?

[@jpethereal]

Remo break pantani's record too and he went to olympic to win two gold medals. Every gold medalist needed to test for doping in olympic.

[@solarmilonga3170]

I dig the idea of trying it on a yesteryear setup. It’d be the closest way comparing them.

[@nolimit7185]

In that case, they should also review Jonas's time trial efforts from last year. Even if doping is involved, there's too much money is generated through these wins, and cyclists are expected to secure victories for their teams/sponsors, I would say, rootcase is not only the rider but the team mgmt as well. It's not as if one rider is outbeating everyone else just to set a personal record on a single climb vs pressure to win and do the job.

[@rlm4471]

I suspect that the leaders are using something that isn't banned yet. That's why Pog doesn't seem to care about how suspicious his performances look. As far as he and the anti-doping agencies are concerned, he is clean.

[@dar1e]

Why do you keep bringing up equipment, when talking about watts per kilo, which has nothing to do with equipment

[@dustind9242]

7.5 w/kg on modern equipment is faster than 7.5w/kg on 30 yr old equipment.

[@khaliljamarr]

W/kg takes into account the weight of the rider not the weight of the rider and the bike therefore equipment matters at this level. Not to mention aerodynamic drag over the course of these long races.

[@johnnyaxelsson6666]

Some people have werry optimal genetics for different Sports.. I dont belive pogacar ever have get into any types of doping... Some people can survive and even get faster when the muscles burns... That pain get into most of us... Wil break you down... I am into bodybuilding in old ages and when people think they train to failure they are only doing 75%...as the best.... Some look little bit like szwarzenegger from birth.. Some never reach that level... Maybe whit drugs.. Pogacar is young still and he is in hes prime...its easy to talk about drugs when someone is so good.....lets hope he cycle more years.. Its a joy to see.. Be strong out there 🙏🧙‍♂️

[@CFCMahomet]

Yes, but doping aside, the peloton as a whole is faster, and those guys leading up the climb are doing so faster. And so if he is doping so is Jonas, and the rest of the group.

[@barriem5318]

I know we are talking grand tour racing, but the most suspicious rider in peloton today is Matthew Van der Poel. Riding Paris roubaix in 5hr 25min or tour of Flanders in 6 hrs. VDP will be the first big name rider to get popped in my opinion.

[@Southerncyclist]

Yonas said he was making better power than last year. Now Pojicar is checking out on him. Crazy 😂

[@maadman117]

the setup 30yrs ago or today doesn't alter the 7W/kg though

[@paulavery8897]

Pog looks like he is climbing on an e-bike, it doesn’t look like he is turning himself inside out. Doesn’t mean he is doping.

[@petejohn]

He probably is. Mechanical doping is likely rife in the pro peloton with the tech advances and the UCI's woeful approach to testing.

[@tankareno]

I have got some news for you.... Santa Clause isn't real, there is no tooth fairy or Easter Bunny.

[@gestell]

​@@petejohn where's your evidence? Rife?!

[@dominiclloyd6651]

Yes it does. If not what is your plausible explanation? Marginal gains?

[@MP48]

@@petejohnbullshit, ignorant bullshit

[@thomas77ify]

He is doped to the eyebrows

[@nnbegin2965]

....and your IQ is 69!!!🤣🤣 even less!!

[@savagepro9060]

3:45 " . . . we WOULD love to think it's so . . ." Well said Emily! Well said! Never say never!

[@JDH-1888]

The French media may be shite stirring but come on it’s a question we’ve all be asking ourselves about Pogacar and some of his ridiculous performances in races

[@MrJanipapillon]

During the race (TDF), @riding bike, nowadays Pogacar drink (watter+sugars) about 85.000 kJ more than Pantani. This is like 14 Kg of cooked pasta or 17 kg cooked rice more in 3 weeks.

[@JimmyPifPaf]

Panatani rode in ancient times of cycling. Today it's all about science. I believe Pogacar is clean. Nobody from WT teams would allow such thing like massive doping. It would be their end. Sponsors would run away...

[@christaylor5924]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@ReNNEbab]

😳😳🙄🙄🙄🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@johnstevens282]

If Poggy is doping, the worst thing to do, is advertise it, by winning easily

[@bobjackson3735]

Why do you think he's not racing the Vuelta?

[@johnstevens282]

@@bobjackson3735 No appearance money? Prob receiving a fat pay packet, to race in Canada

[@Dexter037S4]

@@johnstevens282 World Champs for 26' prep as well, the Montreal course will be the same in 2026 for the World Champs.

[@Silidons91]

I think it's hilarious that anyone thinks professional athletes are natural. You obviously have zero life experience.

[@arnoldmuller1703]

Directly ad personam?

[@petyrkowalski9887]

You sound smug

[@grantbeerling4396]

That is a good point about testing (time trialling). Alf Enger's sub 50.00 min, 25-mile record stood for years. When the wattages are measured for what can be done on relatively few watts on modern machinery, let alone physical fuelling, we are at a point where a good club rider can break Alf's record of 1979. Running is the same, the new super shoes, even at 2% (let alone 4%), which would knock at least 3 minutes off my marathon times, and again, add this present super loading of carbs, 6 minutes would not be unachievable. Back to bikes; tyre technology concerning rolling resistance, we all rode 19-21mm Silk track tubs on TTs pumped up to 160 PSI, no lids, drop handlebars, square rims, silk jerseys, no water (only for lightweights if Merckx didn't need water...), and downshifting 5-speed blocks 13-17. Oh, and jumpers for goalposts! All I know is that all the teams will be sailing close to the mark, and some will overstep that mark. Human nature and all that.

[@beefkd]

"good" club riders dope as well, the downfall is way smaller than being a pro so the inclination for doing it is even bigger

[@grantbeerling4396]

@@beefkd This is also true; only after retiring from road racing (club level) did I find out how much 'Belgium Mix' we had in the peloton. The same applies now with age group runners who, again, I was competing against, and let's say a few let it slip. As a cyclist, I know enough about doping, but what's the point as an amateur? Though beating dopers as a clean runner left me with a greater sense of victory (running in circles chasing a bit of plastic in the middle of nowhere that will be forgotten within a week). Humans cheat, some more than others. It's down to the perception of personal value over perceived status.

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

@@grantbeerling4396 Also the value of one's own health, well being, and longevity over the shallow feeling of glory from an amateur 'win' for the sake of ego. Without expert medical guidance, EPO use can be quite dangerous, especially for aged Masters competitors who may or may not be so sure of their current vascular condition. Even testosterone (or other anabolic steroid) use, if not controlled and measured for a given individual, and with consideration their family backgrounds/incidences of disease, can lead to some major problems, especially in older men (prostate cancer, etc.).

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

I'm in the USA and even I heard about (and admired) Alf's record from that time. (NO 'aero' at all save for radial front wheel spoking and a very rudimentary, early skinsuit, correct??) Some did comment and critique the accomplishment though given he did it on a busy A road, and basically used the constantly passing traffic as motor-pacing, in effect. The UK's roads were good enough not to puncture an extremely light track silk tire (tyre) in 25 (or even 10) miles?!?!?

[@dtmateo]

Equipment has an effect on speed but has no effect on power output. At 7W/kg for 40mins Pog is doped to the bones.

[@niklasbirksted8175]

Can't wait to see Ed do that. By my estimations (which are fairly conservative and with a well above average knowledge of training, nutrition, tactics and equipment), there is at least a +40w penalty to Pantani vs Pogi's setup. That's roughly 0.6w/kg.

[@rayF4rio]

That would explain the speed difference, yes. But not the w/kg. The only factor that I see impacting w/kg is fueling, and of course training methods. But all the tech just makes for higher speeds at similar w/kg. No? Or am I missing something? Not that i think anything nefarious is going on.

[@ThomasHubik]

@@rayF4rio Pantani's watt/kg isnt known, there wasnt powermeter back then, it is just an estimate from the time and his weight.

[@andrew9579]

There is not a 40 watt advantage on a 8% climb vs Pantani’s setup. On the flat at 45kmhr yes but not on a climb. We are talking about watts per kg here plus any bike weight differences.

[@vantarpon6849]

Ingestion of 120+g/hr of mixed carbohydrates is not merely a marginal gain in performance.

[@dustind9242]

Round 1. Effort on modern equip. Round 2. Effort on 30 yr old equip. Round 3 Effort on 30 yr old equipment coming off of a 9 month training block with epo, test, and growth.

[@RobinSanks]

I never watch these extra clips until this one. Screw the comparison to Pantani, view it as an energy function for power. Tadej stated he lost 10kg going into the TdF. That's around 22lbs!!! Yet he has that much power to get up a steep climb that? Even carb loaded while sprinting? IN AN ENERGY DEFICIT. EXTREMELY sus, Jonas as well. Jonas last year looked ill at his body weight. I am not buying these power records, they're either doing some form of TRT or they're motor doping.

[@andy_ppp]

Their bodies at this stage should probably have stopped producing testosterone completely they are in such a catabolic state. To be honest the demands of the tour are so disgusting on the body you must have to dope to some degree to survive it.

[@b-dd8787]

Pogacar and Vingegaard and Remco have beaten Pantani Record.

[@tamasvarga67]

And Jonas did it after a serious injury yet Pogi is the only suspicious one 😂

[@johngillis7625]

No way he is “clean”. Even Armstrong and other former pros are laughing. Equipment aside, 7 watts/kg is a massive increase in performance.

[@mctrials23]

Equipment, training, diet, refuelling on the bike, tactics, recovery, doing all this from a very young age. Of course its not just equipment. Its a million different things. Perhaps they are all juiced up to the gils but all the people who are sure they are doing can seem to offer is "come on, they must be doping".

[@jacofouche4025]

That is the best idea ever. I would love to see the difference of the new technology against the old. I'm just not sure where you would get a set of 30-year-old tires that would still be in good condition. Maybe Merckx would still have some in his cellar... 😂 There is an ex-pro now in his sixties in our club and he regularly still rides his old steel bikes he used to race with on club rides. He also has a modern Bianchi and he said to me that there is a huge difference... Our ex-pro rides tubbies on his old bikes. 😉

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

Off topic, but I have often wondered WHY it is not beneficial to age modern day, high TPI count, cotton casing, top quality 'open tubulars' the same way that King Eddy (and all of us who rode tubulars back then to some extent) did in his 'tire cellar'. Merckx's (Clement??) tires from way back then have long since turned to dust by now.

[@robbchastain3036]

I agree with Jimmi's take on this, tho it is reasonable to wonder in light of the dominance of a handful of riders. Still, who knows and the riders are paid entertainers and as we saw with Lance and his crew, the act can go on for years and years until the ticket buyers find out what's been happening backstage. But not the end of the world, what happened on that bus, just rock stars doing rock star stuff for the money and the fame and the game.

[@jaredfontaine2002]

You put 3 minutes into Pantani... yeah... that's not clean 😂😂😂😂

[@MarkWeishaar-g4r]

The bikes are better with aero, the nutrition is 500% better. The training is now more about not racing January to October, but training for specific targets and spending months in Mallorca living at sea level snd train at altitude. it's like apples to Igloos not even in the same conversation. 🏁 Look at the overall speed of this Vuelta it's insane.💪🏼🏁🏆

[@1afterthep]

I don't care if they dope, I just wanna know where I can get that dope

[@hudsoneful]

Didn’t see this conversation after Jonas’s freak TT last year and Vismas domination of all 3 tours

[@FKP-7]

It was confirmed that Pantani WAS DOPED… so can you state that all the advances match that extra power output back then ?

[@fistofren3483]

Just look at the output of Watts and you have your answer. That has nothing to do with the more modern equipment and also keep in mind that Pantani was doped when he broke the record….

[@JohnMFlores]

Yeah, bikes are different than 30 years ago but return to your original question - is 7 watts per kilo for 40 minutes realistic?

[@DoNuT_1985]

I think power numbers are not out of this world when you factor in the cumulative gains of training of training, recovery and nutrition. Try an intense ride with sports nutrition, do the same thing without or with garbage food. I also think, equipment matters... Grinding up with 39-23 vs. pro gears an amateur could potentially ride today makes a difference, it's not a tour de force about who can push through on maximum strain, it is about most efficient power/cadence/heart rate.

[@LAMF24]

Those years of waiting for a Tour win has really got under the Frenchies' skin.

[@FoobsTon]

Usain Bolt smashed Ben Johnson's time, was he on gear too?

[@reflectionsdetail]

Everyone keeps talking about all these marginal gains, but NO one can show the math supports these massive changes. We can't rely on random testing, the Armstrong era showed that.....Doping is way ahead of testing. 3 drugs can now stimulate homologous production of EPO, Gene Doping technology is VERY possible with no easy way to test. The Passport system is/was a joke. We just don't trust athletics like we use to. So if we hold onto blood, and fluid samples for 10 years and then have a test that finds them positive are we going to take away results then??? Yes I love watching sports but I just cannot believe its clean.

[@arnoldmuller1703]

Why do they say "you can't compare", what does it even mean?

[@neilk22]

The UCI don’t just have the athletes tested, but coaches are subjected to lie detection tests too, which they are passing. The real question is why are we not seeing a much more competitive top 10 or even 20, if there is a bias on PEDs which should elevate many.

[@KevinBurke-x9n]

I would love to see their hematocrit levels throughout the race. It would tell you just about everything you need to know, but unfortunately the UCI will never go down this road.

[@nofascistsonmywatch]

Just how much does intense training (and racing) even all at sea level, increase one's hematocrit from totally out of condition levels?

[@sean9820]

You can believe they are clean and I can still believe in Santa Claus at 35 years old. Also w/kg has NOTHING to do with equiptment. You could pull 7/kg on a beach cruiser single speed.

[@michalsz.7179]

yeah, it may be different but you conveniently overlooked one aspekt - Pantani was doped to the grill - whilst you assume TP is riding clean. Equipment may play a role omin adding 2, 2,5 kilos to the equation - not more. So come on... either he - and all the rest - are supranatural one offs' freaks of nature, or there is ath new ob the market that we are not testing for. And they all have access to it...

[@bubby372]

Doped to the gills. No doubt.

[@HarryTzianakisTheGodOfSpeed]

Pogi is on GOS training , that is what makes him better.

[@MrDominicharrison]

Fishmonger and methylphenidate remco also beat Pantani’s record that day That speaks volumes

[@npa5825]

I recently saw a graph wiith Pogacar's estimated avg watts in the big rounds since 2019. 2024 was much, much higher than in all previous years. This doesn't come from training and nutrition alone. Also that face with no suffering and exhibition after exhibition. Vingegaard looked like an Alien in 1 stage of the 2023 TdF, but if you really look at a side by side of that TT youll see Jonas knew every corner and he was ahead already in thr first corner after a few meters. Pogacar looked like an alien for the whole 2024 Tour, not 1 stage, 6 stage wins easy.

[@niklasschmid9123]

if you ask google how much EPO increases your power, ist about 10%, I don't know if the todays Pro's are doped, but a bike from 25 years back is as least 10 percent slower than a todays bike

[@rof8200]

We can believe Tadej Pogacar's numbers and that he is clean because he's the only one on his doing this. During the discovery team dominance, the whole team was unnaturally fast. We can see Adam Yates get tired. We can see Almeida get tired. The difference is that Pogacar has a higher vo2 max, more power this year and they have found a way to keep him fresh into the third week. Could be heat training, some kind of therapy, fuelling, heat management or combination of above. The point is that he is not going into the red at any point. Only in one stage he went into the red when Jonas beat him at the line. The rest of the race, Pogacar isn't going into the red everyday.

[@glbernini0]

30 year old steel bikes are all over ebay & local on line sites. Can pick up an older steel Bianchi for under $1000! LETS SEE THE TEST!

[@josephnamud6103]

There is nothing to be dislike tadej pogacar but,...envy

[@savagepro9060]

that's his drug, ENVY, but a drug nonetheless

[@1fan164]

But where's the evidence?

[@bendenisereedy7865]

If Pog is using a new pharmaceutical, gas chromatigraphy will detect it and a peak will appear on the readout even though mass-spectroscopy may not be able to identify the molecule.

[@davess61]

Loving the north east accent 😁