Points Vs. HEI: An Actual Dyno Test!

Several years ago, Hot Rod magazine ran a back to back dyno test comparing the stock Chevrolet single point ignition to a couple of versions of the HEI. We're pretty sure they weren't expecting to find what they did.
Link to article: www.hotrod.com...
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#utg #pointsignition #hei

[@Sam_Eassa]

Tony, I agree with you. I am an Electrical Engineer and I can explain these results as follows: You will generally have lower contact resistance through a fresh set of points than you will have through the semiconductor switching device typically used in an HEI. This will result in higher peak current through the coil primary and a higher, sharper voltage peak at the secondary. The only advantage of an HEI is that, for street use, it eliminates regular maintenance due to point and rubbing block wear. For racing, fresh, correctly adjusted points are superior and more reliable.

[@Remow2112]

Thanks for explaining why the results. I was hoping someone would, but you could not pay me to go back to points from my MSD 6AL. blaster ii coil and mag pick up. Just the ease of maintenance is worth a couple of ponies.

[@jeremypike9153]

The power difference is negligible at best. Honestly for all out power I'd think the magneto setup would be the win. If its daily driven I'm going with HEI it's simple still tunable and pretty reliable and easy to troubleshoot. IMO it's just not enough of a horsepower amount to be concerned with in most situations. Between dyno runs most engines will flip flop 3-4 horsepower throughout the graph.

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

Primary current is dependent on impedance. There have been a number of different GM HEI modules for various reasons, I believe at least one of them rings the coil several times?

[@jeremypike9153]

I'd like to see a shootout between an MSD box and points. I wonder if multiple spark discharge gains any power over just HEI or Points.

[@jeremypike9153]

@@DanEBoyd I have heard that never seen it done though I've always just seen the hall effect switch style used to trigger an MSD box.

[@dcrog69]

As a casual uti viewer this point is my biggest takeaway from this channel. Most people just think that it is common knowledge that hei is better. Thank you Tony for dropping some knowledge on us

[@superdupergrover9857]

Not better, just different. Also learned to not underestimate a geezer who knows how to tune his antiquated mechanisms.

[@1HeavyHitr]

This ^^^

[@charlesprice7608]

Yea technology is bad, get back to drum brakes, and bias ply tires that lasted 8,000 miles. 🤦‍♂️ I remember constantly having to tune your car to keep it running right. Tune ups every 6,000 miles. Don’t know about this one article he found, but a stock HEI puts out 64,000 volts more than twice what a stock points set up produces. Even more than the dual point distributors back in the 80’s.

[@rcnelson]

The original article is from Car Craft, December 1998. I was so impressed I have the magazine on my book shelf. Thanks ebay.

[@72442conv]

@@charlesprice7608 The one reason why I replace points system with electronics is because of the maintenance aspect. In that you are correct, technology has moved un and Uncle Tony is not saying to go back to bias ply tires and drum brakes, what he is saying is that you can make these old systems work. A drag car with drum brakes will usually be faster than one with disc brakes, they weigh less and you can adjust them to have very little resistance. Do you want to have drum brakes on your daily driver, no, but if this is an old vintage car that only gets used occasionally to go to the strip and take a weekend ride, you do not need to spend $2500 upgrading your drums to discs, that is what tony is trying to say. People now consider these old cars "unsafe" but everyone used to use them back in the day and I know I survived very well in a couple of crashes in them...

[@georgelackey622]

Uncle Tony I agree 100 %, the points have a more consistent curve overall and analog is so simple to work with.

[@terrymeyer9895]

I'm old school. I converted to electronic ignition on my cars and then started re-installing my points type ignition. Cars run the same and all I need is to carry a spare set and some simple tools if I need to change them. I'm carb guy too..no EFI for me. Thanks Tony for reaffirming my old school ways😁

[@craigcontofalsky4387]

Back in 73 we took a stock 273 HP dual point and did some tricks we read about in a magazine. We shortened the curve by brazing up the rotor plate slots and we put small pcs of rubber vacuum tube hoses behind each set of points to eliminate point bounce! It worked great! We ran that distributor in my brother's 70 Dart Swinger 340 auto. Other than the Hemi grind cam it ran 13.50s @ 106 mph. That's with 3.91 gears and 7" cheater slicks!

[@cjbert6790]

I’d like to try that vacuum hose trick, how high did you rev it,

[@robertwells6454]

As a 16 year old kid I learned by Myself how to do points condenser coil and the rest of the tune up on My 66 FE 390 and thought I was KING SHIT. But it was cool. I've always had luck with that set up. And it's cheep. 🤘😎🇺🇸

[@edwardojr2838]

Great video Tony, its all personal preference. Ppl need to stop hounding others on their personal preference when they themselves have personal preferences.

[@kurtmccarthy6733]

That was great Tony. It was a mild way to slam the guy’s that are slamming points. I have always stuck to my simple points also. Love the new shop by the way. Can’t wait to see what the cars run at.

[@jamoshotrod]

I agree, money is main reason why they want you to switch

[@rudyjhughes]

@@jonathanlawson4667 if they were great they wouldn’t of been phased out.

[@Thirdgen83]

The advantage of electronic ignition is that as points wear, the timing changes, and points need to be replaced periodically. I'll never run points. There is simply no reason to. I know HEI coils can be unreliable, but my Ford Duraspark has been reliable for 28 years.

[@Luke-id1cp]

I am currently building an "all analog" pickup. Inspired by your videos Uncle T. Thank you

[@davenhla]

I picked up a 78 monaco(b body) ex detectives car last thanksgiving. It has a 318 with points in it. I am going to put a 383 in it, because the 400 it had is long gone and I got a bangin deal on this 383. Anyway, I have had 3 guys tell me already I should put a full MSD on it. One said sniper EFi too. I have run points, I have obviously used HEI, and I have had two Fords with MSD, the second one not very long but still. Here's how it went for me: I have never had an issue with points. Keep in mind, unless you live in the warm, salt free south, your old car or truck is going to get limited miles during the year and you will have all winter to put new points in. I have had some wierd issues with HEI, my one 5.0 mustang I had the pick up wore out, or.... well i don;t know, but I narrowed it down to the distributer and just plopped a new one in to fix the issue. That car got a lot of miles though compared, same with old trucks I had, the old farm truck for example. HEI isn't bad per se, it's just harder to trouble shoot and in general if something isn;t working you are dead on the street. But, that's usually rare and most times if you pay attention the vehicle will give you hints that it is unhappy about something before it stops. MSD, costs money. It works. For some applications, it is worth the money. For a lot of applications, I would never touch it. It allows for some interesting tuning, the Capri I had 351W swapped loved it, ALWAYS started, and let me run super rich and super timing....never had issues with mine but I have heard stories. most stories include the actual 6A box mounted in the glove box or under a seat where it will for sure overheat and fail. I put the two I used under the hood away from exhaust etc. One I even tucked behind the battery in the big open space of the inside of the front fender. On both vehicles I had it on, the throttle response was much improved, started easier, and in general made the cars more daily friendly. I have no intention of putting MSD on my old cop car. The 318 doesn;t need it, at all, and the 383 I am going to hotrod at home build won;t either, I am just not going to build it that extreme. I have gone from likeing the idea of EFI(never used it) to hating it over the last decade. Mostly because chinesium/w4lm4rt electronics piss me off, and last about as long as a tv commercial. Nope, this car will have points, and probably a "tall" dual plane intake with an eddy on top. Weiand makes an interesting dual plane with taller rectangular runners that showed really nice street style numbers on an intake shoot out article I read online(they tested like 15 intakes on the same engine) I will leave the MSD/sniper stuff for the guys that insist on taking a 400 and throwing the entire engine away besides the block to make a stroker for their trailer queen A body.

[@briannordstrom5022]

Bang On ! Tony , my 1952 ES2 500cc single runs a magnito and it has not missed a beat in 69 years !

[@briannordstrom5022]

oops ! Norton ES2.

[@michaelmartinez1345]

Wow!!! Re-discovered information from the past, on actual comparison testing of electronic ignition, Vs. Ignition points... Very interesting!!!

[@DougsterWolverineGarage]

I love the nitro gasser mask on the table in background! I've seen pics of Tony wearing it!

[@Sedan57Chevy]

Enjoyed the new format, Tony. Thanks for finally covering this article in a full video! Very interesting results...

[@afastcuda1970]

When I was a teenager in the 80's, I went to work at an auto parts store. I would ask an older man there "what is this part for"? He would reply, "some shit to make the car cost more". Today, I believe he new what he was talking about.

[@uliwehner]

they cost more and they run 200,000 miles with nothing but oil changes. nobody daily drives a points ignition, carbureted car or truck daily for 200,000 miles. Not saying it is not feasible, but it does not happen, just too much maintenance.

[@jamesmay9345]

@@uliwehner wooooosh! Nobody drives an old daily for 200,000miles?! Absolutely bull shit.They are less maintenance. Always funny seeing someone try to talk about a subject they have no clue about. Always better to sit in silence or ask than jump up and make yourself a fool.

[@uliwehner]

@@jamesmay9345 proof my wrong. i put 10 cars with 200k in 10 years for any one you put up. don't be silly.

[@jamesmay9345]

@@uliwehner It's already been proven that you don't know what you are talking about. *"nobody daily drives a point ignition carbureted car or truck daily for 200,000miles"* You think no one has driven a carbureted engine with points ignition 200,000miles of daily driving? Are you being serious or just silly? "Just too much maintenance " Oh dear.

[@afastcuda1970]

@@uliwehner cars used to cost around $4000. Now they are around $40000. 10 $4000 cars will run much longer than 1 $40000 car.

[@paulricelli5520]

With dual points, second set of points is timed slightly later, extending the dwell at higher rpm. Also, wont leave you on the side of the road with your "wrench" in your hand.

[@GlassTopRX7]

With modern electronics you wouldn't need to carry tools with you in the first place.

[@enduser6982]

but will have your cell phone in hand to call tow truck LoL

[@GlassTopRX7]

@@enduser6982 Maybe but it hasn't happened in 30 years of driving modern cars.

[@rancidmilk8824]

@@GlassTopRX7 Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, and things are also made cheaper than ever.

[@GlassTopRX7]

Modern cars are far more reliable.@@rancidmilk8824

[@archieguitarz4700]

Thanks Tony, really nice to see I'm not the only one still running points. Have a stock single point in my '71 Charger 383 Magnum. It's a summer car that see's about 1k a year and the points are just fine. Every few years I check the gap but she still pulls strong with no complaints. My other car is a 72 Charger Rallye with an ECU. I pretty much leave that alone too.

[@mustie1]

big fan of points, ive found l get a better/smoother idle,

[@travispoppler8023]

While you're adjusting the dwell the other guy is replacing his cam or crank sensor if it's accessible. Look at the schematic of new vehicle. It's a joke. HEI was one of the first inovations. I understand why they did it but now it's out of hand.

[@kurtmccarthy6733]

@@travispoppler8023 totally agree with you Travis. It’s been easier to adjust as you drive and keep a new set in the glove box just in case 🏁😎✌️

[@onusgumboot5565]

@@moparnut6286 I like my '67 with points. The problem I always had with electric ignition, is that it works until it doesn't. No warning. It just stops. And there is nothing you can do to make it a few more miles to get by until you have time to change it. With points, find some sand paper, a match book with some grit left on the striker, whatever. File it as clean as you can and get home.

[@onusgumboot5565]

@@moparnut6286 Modern day cars you can't even find the engine. Just a couple of plastic boxes of some sort. I never carried spares. Could barely afford the parts when it came up and I had no choice but to fix it. I remember riding down the highway with a guy I worked with. The truck sputtered and died. I walked up and down the road until I found enough junk to use to get it running again. He was amazed. He said "Damn You just will not be denied." I put the clutch linkage on a step van back together using a pop top tab I found on the side of the road. It was still holding it together two years later when I finally got rid of it. I regret letting it go.

[@kevinragsdale6256]

@@moparnut6286 takes 5 minutes to gap points

[@jpdiscovers8670]

I love your guys' show it shows you what the old technology has to offer, for it's time.

[@jonathangehman4005]

I'm starting to come around to this way of thinking. Everything I own has electronic ignition, even my 61 Studebaker Champ already had a Pertronix on it when I bought it, and I've put an orange or chrome box on every hot Mopar I've ever had since I was in High School. And on all of them it turned out to be a compromise between a little more maintenance or a little more complexity. That complexity can bite you in the ace sometimes in an inconvenient way. My 66 Belvedere has an MSD 6al that I'm not 100% comfortable roadtripping, we all know that MSD is a good, proven piece but they do fail sometimes and there's no repairing that thing on the shoulder. The pertronix on my Stude worries me even more, if you leave the ignition switch in the "on" position for more than 10 seconds or so without the engine running it will fry itself and again, there aint no fixing it, and that's the sort of dumb shit I do everyday. And even if I carry a pricy new unit around just in case, am I sure I could easily troubleshoot it if it did happen? Not sure about that, I burned up 2 new Pertronix units on a hotrod BMW 2002 a hundred years ago before I found the dead short that was cooking them. I'm not quite ready to convert everything back to points yet but I'm absolutely going to have points on the Hot Slant in the 25 Dodge jalopy roadster I'm gathering parts for.

[@Z_732]

Here's my experience UT. When I was a young man. The bearings on a points ignition dist went bad. We couldn't find the problem. Wasted a ton thinking we built the engine wrong. Changed it out eventually to another distributor that was also points. Solved it. Now fast forward a few years. The amount of play in said bearings did not affect the electronic ignition at all.. it runs on a magnet. They will not lie if they wobble a bit. Thats why I run the electronic ignition. Do NOT think im trying to discredit points in any way. They were known to be very reliable and put out loads of energy. I still have some,, still use some. But for me, my experience is electronic ignition is more reliable. (Actually got to consider where we live as well. Im at almost a mile above sea level with sht weather) thank you for clearing up this stuff with most people! Well said, and well done sir!

[@Learningmane]

I kept the points system on my 74 Camaro just because of a previous video you made on this subject. I just got me an old school made in the good ol USA machine for $15 bucks to adjust them. Thanks for your hard work Uncle Tony

[@dianelee2100]

I think you are a truly great person. Look forward to every video. You're real

[@hondaelsinore1974]

Another points guy here! The 440 I just finished is getting a NOS Mallory dual point distributor. I am all set with any type of electronic ignition. Points are more reliable when maintained and can be easily diagnosed and repaired in minutes if there ever was a failure. Electronics can be a nightmare with intermittent failure of components, leaving you chasing your tail for hours.

[@kanecombes8918]

For those wh are gonna say, "HEI NO MAINTENENCE" he's not say that points don't need serviced it's that other than gapping them which takes no time really, there's nothing to them, I've got cars with both and other than the points maintenance one every 10,000 miles I dont have trouble and I've never been stuck, if you struggle that much to gap your points, but a back brace.

[@ferrofilos]

the simpler that it is , the better it works. cheers from argentina!

[@jasont.1530]

I have HEI in the Cuda and had it go on me already. Maybe points have a bit more maintenance, but it doesnt have a computer board with solder joints that loosen over time, causing a no start condition in the middle of a popular road...i speak from personal experience. Valid preference Uncle Tony, although I did get put another HEI in mine again...

[@Karkmotuning]

Cool stuff, uncle Tony, thumbs up. In the eighties we put a Cortina four cylinder distributor in a testbench, the points worked perfectly up to 12.000 rpm ( dizzy test, of course we didn't rev the engine to 12 grand), over that the points started showing inconsistency. Yes, it was only a four cylinder, but those were old points, filed and adjusted.

[@Karkmotuning]

Oh, and that was one of those infamous Lucas distributors too

[@misterhat5823]

This comes from right from an ST app note: "It should be noted that unless a special ignition coil is used, there is a little to be gained in performance by adding a transistor assisted ignition to an automobile."

[@barbmelle3136]

From Leo: I really like your videos, you bring a lot of real life experience to the table. A big part of the electronic systems is so the manufacturers could insure emission and CAFE standards over the life of the car. The EPA knows that the majority of the population do not keep their manually adjusted ignition and fuel systems tuned. I was wrenching in the early 1970's, and most people did not think about a tune up until the car was running pretty badly, causing increased emissions. Same with manual valve lash.

[@topenddean]

Excellent comment.

[@sethbarnes7608]

I grew up about 5 miles from Keith Blacks shop! He was an awesome guy!!

[@BigHeinen]

Everything you said is absolutely TRUE! Points have the edge! But there's NO "significant" seat of the pants difference throughout the rev range AND the HEI have no maintenance! That's HUGE my friend.

[@baileyhatfield4273]

No maintenance for a bit till something poops the box. If i'm going old school, ill go old school. I'd rather have cheap and simple mechanical stuff. That being said, nothing wrong with HEI. The cost i'd say is a big deal

[@chuckm5923]

A 4 pin HEI module is $20

[@chuckm5923]

A 4 pin GM HEI module can also be used to replace a Duraspark module in Ford or AMC with some simple wiring. Then use the better e core coil. I like the looks of the canister coil better but it’s not as hot of a coil.

[@BigHeinen]

Good point sir!@@chuckm5923

[@jamesmclaughlin8261]

Problem is that good points are hard to find. The wear block act like they are made of butter!

[@Oldcomputer]

Yea where can you find good points today? Is all cheaply made junk. The condenser situation is just as bad.

[@charlesowens8319]

@@Oldcomputer you can get the better points from napa worked there from 1974 to 2013

[@yeboscrebo4451]

I have to have a bag full of condensers because they go bad so fast

[@THRASHMETALFUNRIFFS]

WOW! Holy Crud, what a cool look into this issue bro!

[@nicholasagnew2792]

Richard Holdener also proved EFI doesn't make power over carburetion. I'll stick with the one I can fix with a screwdriver and a wrench.

[@Tk-ou9ec]

This is true. A wee bit smoother perhaps but that’s about it?!

[@MrTheHillfolk]

@@CarsandCats check a cis injected VW rabbit vs a carbed rabbit. Of course the stock carb is shit , but unless you go to something like single carbs in those you'll never match cis for response and driveability and mileage and power. Low mid 20s for mpg vs high teens for a carb. Even factory rated the Bosch cis had 10hp more. And being mechanical injection it's fairly simple as injection could be. But yea for most of this older stuff ,it's not gonna add power just features like easier starting at 10 degrees out and stuff like that.

[@JacksoNR26]

Efi and hei is better due mainly to less maintenance in my opinion, and with good modern technology, efi can do what ever you want with it more accurately and precise than a carburetor, most carbs run Rich because when the motor is idling and driving small normal amounts of vibration cause the needle and seat to fall out of adjustment, thats from a ASE master certificate tech with over 30 years experience

[@CaptainGoldbeered]

@@MrTheHillfolkThat’s one specific application though. My 84 302 2 barrel mustang got 27 mpg on the highway. That’s gps verified with multiple fill-ups to the filler hole. The guy that set that carb up before I bought the car from him was a damn wizard. Started at 15 Fahrenheit without any fuss and ran like a top.

[@CaptainGoldbeered]

If that mustang had been a hard top I would’ve kept it til the day I die.

[@Mrshotshell]

The advantage I always thought of with electronic ignition was less moving parts so there's less to wear out and maintain

[@codyramos3200]

Yeah same way I looked at points vs hei. . I really expected no difference in hp between the two as I clicked on the video

[@1goldenugget]

Totally agree with you. The only thing that I would ever hear was the "issue" of point float AT HIGH RPM. For stock vehicles (anything street) I noticed that points did just fine. I started checking the solid state switches against points and discovered that points allowed for more voltage out of the coil. HEI is good for endurance, as long as ya didn't get an EMP out of who knows where. The only "problem" I had with points was pitting due to a mismatched or weak capacitors. Aloha

[@frogman8591]

I am really glad to learn this...Tony, I see you have to spend a lot of time "explaining yourself" to the viewers who give you flack. These folks should rejoice to learn tuning can be less expensive. Now I want to see what you think about carbs.

[@rayfaulkner8458]

I had points in my 61 chevy k10. I put an msd system in it. It starts and runs better but like you said when it comes to points "PROPERLY TUNED"

[@livewire2759]

My '66 is still running points, and even when they're worn out it still starts and runs alright, but a "properly tuned" points ignition will actually start BETTER than HEI. My HEI's from the 70s always crank at least one full turn before they fire off, where the old points can fire up with just a bump of the key when I have them tuned up.

[@pacman3908]

Wen the points got warn out the engine wud idle rough thats wen iknew wen to replace them. I got tired of adjusting them i switched over to a hei way better idle and no more hassle adjusting points

[@427_FE]

I still have my flexible point adjuster, for going through the window in the cap. I may still have the one Delco supplied in the "tune-up " box with cap,rotor, and points and condenser. it was a short allen wrench pressed on a tab of sheet metal. Better have a dwell meter handy. The window in the cap is something I haven't thought about in decades. thanks for the memories !!!!

[@heavymetalmadness666]

Good info. I've ran both in my life, and had issues with both. I've had HEI distributors fail, one stranded me the other time the tach shorted and shut it down, just I just unplugged the tach and drove on. I had a Mopar with a "cheap" rebuilt distributor and with in 100 miles the car stalled. A quick check over and I found the wear block for the points wore out to the point there was no opening or closing of the points. I adjusted to opening and drove it back, and bought some good points. No problem after that. A lot of point problems are because people don't understand things that matter, that you can do with HEI and you cannot do with points. The big one is key "on without the engine running", that's why at one time you turned the key back to ACC. Another would be matching coil resistance.12 volt coils are not all the same. One time" not on my car" the point distributor lost ground to the point, and wouldn't run. What will I run in my my own car from 1968, I don't know yet. Another thing is as things wear out so does the performance of points, and that not just the point or points.

[@ksokie63]

Tony , I agree with you 💯. But the worst thing I see alot of is the new people entering in the field of automobile mechanics has very little experience with how to tune up a car that has pionts in it. So it people like you that share your experiences with others that can nake a difference. Thanks for the video.

[@jameshuban6515]

An interesting observation. My experiences with points were in setting the dwell settings. My brother had a 72 Satellite Sebring Plus with a 400 in it. It wasn't built for speed with only a Holly 2210 2bbl but it would cruise effortlessly. Unfortunately it would only get 12 mpg. The issue was setting the dwell to 32 degrees by twisting the screw driver like all the other makes. That was a pain in the ***. Then we discovered the GM style adjustable points on his Corvette. What a difference! You could set the dweii in seconds by turning the tension screw while the motor was running. Now there is the issue of poorly (cheap) built points' rubbing blocks. A testament to the HEI ignition. My 82 Camaro developed a miss while running down the interstate. Upon inspection I found the rotator button had loosened up and was floating about 45 degrees out of position. Try that with a set of points.

[@jameshuban6515]

@@cjbert6790 Hey it's just my experience dealing with this subject.

[@superrodder2002]

I ran blue streak HD points in a stock, recurved single point distributor for years on my healthy 327 engine. I regularly shifted at 8000 RPM with no points float or ignition breakdown issues. I eventually upgraded to a Mallory dual point ignition with no performance gains. I still have the 327 and dual point distributor after 40+ years however both have been rebuilt several times over the years.

[@timsharpe3498]

When I was about 20 years old I had a 1966 street strip GTO. I tried to use the HEI but it fell flat at about 4000 RPMs because I didn’t know that I couldn’t use the factory coil primary wiring to power it. The poor thing was designed to work on 13 volts and it was probably getting about 7. I took my original points distributor and equipped it with a recurve kit, some Moroso wires and a huge Accel Supercoil. Since the ignition cables were stainless wire I added one of those inline coil wire resistors to give it a hotter spark at lower RPMs. That setup really worked great and I never did try another on that car. HEI is great for a stock engine but it wasn’t designed for high RPMs so I’m not too surprised about the dyno results.

[@cjbert6790]

I agree. But I don’t think the stock unit in the test even had a Gm module.

[@DennisMurphey]

Told to check out your stuff and hesitated, never was a Mopar guy. Then I saw this topic. At 15 I bought a 47 Chevy Coupe and put a 57 Olds Engine, Hydro, Rear End in it with my buddy Dale, his Dad had a Lincoln Tombstone welder. Went to Auto Tech School in 67 at SIU Carbondale. Had a 64 Corvette for 4 years with 7 different engines, Best was a Real Z28 302. Transferred to engineering for a BS. Drove a 64 GTO 389 Tri-Power 4.1 gear. Drafted in 71 worked in the Army Corp of Engineers teaching Diesel engine rebuild. Got back into cars in the 90s. 64 Coupe Vette, 79 Vette l82, 81 Vette, 93 Vette 98 Vette Magnuson, 07 Z06Vette, 14 Z51 Vette. Seen a lot of engines and variations since 1965. Like you technology was always the goal but Money$$$.. This was the best example of Points performance with hard proof and evidence. BUT, set up is critical. it is easy to get in the fringe of good performance with gap setting, poor ground, corroded contacts, weak capacitor, etc etc. Here is where most DIY Car guys fall down. At Auto Tech we had access to a SUN machine, and we were taught to read spark plug energy traces for engine issues. It was amazing how far off an ignition system can be and still undetected to the normal mechanic methods. It would seem we need a cheap simple tool to better set up points and points made with better quality materials for more stable operation over time. Not all of us race nitro dragsters. I would love to buy a nice clean 70s-80s Vette and update it, make powerful and reliable and have fun Friday night chasing down Mustangs. Ok what can you do to a low compression 350 without going broke. HEI, EFI, Power Adders. $$$$$ Been there Done that. Spend Gobs on a 81 Vette time to sell maybe got 50% of my investment. Hey we can't keep doing that. Your lectures while Mopar focused absolutely cross over to all the brands of the 70s and 80s for a practical fun driver without spending all your retirement fund. Before i saw this lecture on Points, i was adding up the costs for an 81 I just saw on line. HEI was on top of my list, then EFI, Aluminum Heads, Headers, Cam, Rollers, maybe a Vortech SC. then we need overdrive tranny, over 70 now so Automatic is required. We need power and reliability. When we add it all up we can not afford a hobby Hot Rod. Now hearing you it opens up a new idea, a new method, hey wait a minute. If we have the tools and techniques to optimize the proven old school subsystems we could afford a fun exciting Hobby Driver. What are your thoughts on tuning tools besides a chassis dyno? are there ignition setup tools like the old Sun Machine that show Spark Plug traces? We know A/F ratio monitors are out there so carb tuning can be made easier. Are there low cost tools a hobbyist can get and learn to use effectively. Tuning lights are cheap but is there a better way to power tune. Thank You for all your posts and knowledge sharing guess I need to sign up now huh!

[@michaelmichaelson8452]

Good to know stuff Tony ain't stuck in the past he has a lot of good information if you listen to his entire videos not just the first few lines.

[@murph55]

hey tony back in the 60's 70's and early 80's you needed a tuneup every 20 thousand miles, now you can go over 100 thousand miles without a tuneup, hei is one of the best things that ever happen to cars

[@AppalatchieRaised]

Always learn something new here Tony. 💥

[@emersontayten]

Fantastic video. I was waiting for this after seeing comments of your comment on that other video a few days ago by...I can't remember who. I stuck hei in the mustang I'm building for my son as a temporary thing to run around in, but definitely am putting points back in. That, and a double pumper Holley! Thanks for all you do Tony!

[@novaguy8419]

This is exactly why I used the points. Short story. When I was racing back in 2000-2007 I was running in a dirt track stock car class. I could out rev and perform the cars that ran hei. You could tell the cars that ran the illegal hei s. But don’t get me wrong I love the simplicity of hei for the streets. Thanks UTG.

[@davidroberts2404]

Good point about the old 5 amp magnetos. Still use them today. Heard too many horror stories about msd44. They say buy 2 of them 1 to use in the car and the other for backup while the primary 44 is at msd getting repaired

[@sarcastomimic2683]

40 years ago, I raced a '71 Olds Cutlass running a custom 350 ci Olds engine (Bored +.060, 330 steel crank, Tunnel Ram and other goodies). My ignition of choice was a Mallory dual point distributor, with super coil (with ballast resistor, of course). That setup would live fine up to 7000 RPM, where I would shift it.

[@LORISSABOOBMAN]

My 72 351-CJ Gran Torino got a Ford H.O. Dual Point with vacuum advance. I put that in in 83 when my single point wore out early & that new dual point never needed points since that & i put over 80,000 on them & they were as solid as a Cloye's steel double roller timing chain & sprocket. That car was fun.

[@gilbertnowak5770]

Tony I had a 64 Fairlane which was a Street strip car in the 60's , when I bought it someone had put in a 68 302 -2brl. with a cam change a head change Dual valve springs a sidways carb Torker open plenum Intake and a STOCK single point dist with a Accel Super coil . I shifted that engine at 7,500 Rpm ALL DAY LONG. I called it my Corvette EATER.

[@cjbert6790]

A 2 bbl. 7500 rpm ( sure )

[@denniswinston7365]

When I ran circle track (dirt) there was times the motor turned 8000 rpm and I ran a point ignition system with an msd points for performance

[@jamesjustin5095]

My buddy Bruce always said you can fix points but not electronics if your broke down on the back road!

[@modelnutty6503]

bingo, and a spare set in the glove box is all ya might need.

[@rcnelson]

Congrats to all those who missed Uncle's point. Yes, points need more maintenance. Yes, electronic ignitions of any type are likely more reliable. But when it comes to pure performance points deliver more than HEI, contrary to what all the experts say (see the commentary in the article itself). And at the peak rpm points blew both the racing and stock HEIs away. This is important, because it shows that archaic, primitive, backward, systems, whatever insult you care to use for point ignitions, actually work well.

[@markraday8071]

I used an oem dual point distributor with mechanical tack on my 68 Chevelle with a 327 in it turns some good numbers with that car. Got the distributor out of a Corvette ⚡

[@billyjoejimbob56]

"All ya need is a screw driver and a few minutes to fiddle with the tune every few weeks....' which is exactly the POINT. Most of us don't race 45 year old cars on Friday night. I like a car that starts on a zero degree morning, warms up without stalling a half dozen times or stumbling thru every intersection, one that never required a tuneup and runs perfectly after 8 years and 120,000 miles on its original plugs and injectors. Sign me up for that any day.

[@stevejohnson7132]

I also worked on cars and trucks throughout the 70s and 80s and every other time the oil was changed meant checking/cleaning the distributor and points of carbon, and regapping. A 1998 article isn't worth keeping an old-tech image alive.

[@kirstenspencer3630]

Quality points are great. May this old gal elaborate a few areas where the stock ignition's from the 1930's to 1975 suffer for perfection. The little cam the points glide against is rarely inspected and properly lubed using the correct grease. Also ballest resistor's fail or have corrosion on terminals. The power to the ballest resistors can suffer from voltage drops at every point along the way. Dealing with 70 year old wiring can have its challenges. A few bulkhead connection's on old fords can cause hodden voltage drops UNDER LOAD but read normal with a DVOM. A heavy duty test light or 12 volt headlight with leads can be a useful tester. Clean tight and soldered connrctions. Have fun. Goog Video by the way. Thanks

[@topdogmechanicify]

I love your content. I'm 45 and love analog stuff. I want to convert my HEI gm, to a points dist. I'm sick and tired of changing ignition modules on the side of the road lol. I keep a pile of them in my car 🤦‍♂️

[@steveblottenberger1097]

Uncle Tony I support you I'm just a little bit younger than you I grew up on points and condenser they just got to be maintained that's why someone come up with something easier to maintain but I believe you you are the best keep up supporting old technology Steve from Annapolis

[@thomasparker5208]

I replaced my large body GM HEI with a points distributor just because the HEI was ugly and didn't make sense in the stock engine bay of a 55 Chevy. The points that came in the Rock Autor rebuilt AC delco distributor was junk though; only lasted about a year. Replaced them with GM NOS points recently. I am happy. Glad to see someone advocating the old school tech.

[@morgangallowglass8668]

THANK YOU FOR THIS! Been pushing points for years!

[@peacfulseas]

I run points set up in my '55Nomad 427/M22 w/Acel yellow coil. The points that are in it now were installed 10 yrs ago at most. I can and have gone down squirt some gas into the fuel bowl vents, give it a couple pumps on the peddle and touch the key , boom. I can easily set the points gap with a dwell meter. Less maintenance? I changed out a lot of modules and coil pickups as a mechanic /shop owner. With electronic distributors when they're dead you are dead in the water. Tow time. Many times I was able to reset the point gap enough to get my clients to the shop to replace the points and condenser. Don't buy cheap discount point sets. Best I have always liked and sold were Napa's Echlin line.

[@red-doggracing5557]

I’m running a 6 AL MSD box blaster 2 coil stock Chevy points distributor Msd cap rotor Accel performance points works awesome 7200 RPM shift s all swap meet Parts $175

[@CheezyDee]

Just doing plugs and wires on a slant six equipped stock F body Mopar is a pain in the ass (and lower back, arms, etc), I can imagine having to do points adjustments too. I'll stick to the stock electronic ignition. FYI, they offset the engine a couple inches to the passenger side I'm guessing for proper U-joint angles, so there's tons of empty space on the driver's side where the intake, exhaust, and starter reside, but almost no room on the passenger side where the distributor, coil, and plugs/wires are.

[@CircuitSecrets]

Good stuff. The biggest problem with points is wear and maintenance. A quality HEI will last a long time with little to no maintenance. Mechanical points on the other hand in a points distributor or a relay, will slowly burn through and the gap changes. This means every few thousand miles you have to check the gap and clean the points. With HEI its set it and forget it until something fails, but there are no contact surfaces to wear with magnetic pickups so heat and vibration is usually what causes them or the rest of the circuit to fail. The interesting thing about points is they were designed to run on 6 volt systems. In WWII military vehicles like the old Dodge trucks would have two batteries to provide 12 volts, and a ballast resistor was used to form a voltage divider with the circuit to provide 6 volts to the points and coil. If the generator was damaged the ballast resistor could be switched out providing the full voltage of the system to the points. This would allow the vehicle to run and have strong ignition long after a 6 volt system would have quit. When all vehicles went 12 volts it was cheaper to just add the ballast resistor to the circuit than to produce different coils, points and condensers to handle the voltage. When electronic ignitions were produced they used the same coils for the same reason. An option used on many stock points systems was a dual path that is switched during startup. When the starter is pulling current either a different ballast is used with less resistance, or the ballast is bypassed to provide more power during startup. If someone wanted to have maximum power to the ignition they could bypass the ballast and show the coil the full 12 volts. The problem with this is the coil will run much hotter and burn out quicker, and both the points and condenser will wear out in a hurry. The contact surface on the points will physically burn through in just a few hundred miles. It could be useful for drag racing with the modern Chinese points that the lift block wears through more quickly than it did on the old points. Electronics are great, but an engine compartment is one of the most inhospitable environments on earth for electronics. You have extreme temperatures, huge EM signals from the ignition system, vibration, and wildly swinging peaks and valleys of supply voltage during start up, this is why there are so many issues with after market sensors, if something is just a little out of tolerance it either wont last, or never works right to begin with. Ignition modules and ECMs are often coated in epoxy to try to prevent the damage from vibration, but it usually makes heat a bigger problem.

[@JacksoNR26]

I love that expression at 0:10 when he said put a hei in it

[@discerningmind]

I agree completely UT but there are other reasons that Points make sense too. One reason is when you have HEI you'd better be damn sure that you carry an extra Igniter at all times. Because Igniter's never give any warning when they're going to quit. They always quit after you park and the next time you try to start the engine. And that can happen when you might not be in a good place for that. Or, you might not have time to figure out why your car quit. Or, the circumstances like bitter cold, night time, or need a hospital run. An Igniter failure puts people in a situation. But I don't know of anyone that ever that got stranded because ignition Points failed. Because when Points are going bad you have a good long warning by your car not running right. I recall how within a few years of HEI coming out that there seemed to be a lot of newer looking cars in good shape being towed-in to shops. I expect these were usually an Igniter failure. The average person was at a loss when an Igniter quits, but worn Points would have people into a shop long before a tow was required. I've seen HEI cars quit because distributor caps became heavily corroded, or the rotor broke, and even the coil lead and spring breaking off. That's neglect because no one was checking. But that never happens with Points because of mid-cycle cleanings, and new Points change outs. The mechanic or DIY'er is going to check the cap and rotor during a Points service. I love vintage cars. I've never had a need to want to change any of them from Points to HEI, or even change to electronic Points. That would be a stupid thing to do. Points have always run just fine and they last a long time before even a cleaning. My only beef with points is that I've always had a difficult time with feeler gauges. I always use a dwell meter because I wanted them set perfectly, and I hated the whole thing of having to pop the cap and try again, and again. So I liked GM engines that had Uni-Set. All said, I trust points more than HEI. And I trust the newer coil-on-plug systems more than HEI. This conversation about Points goes the same as the one about 6V vs 12V. There's nothing wrong with Six Volts! That's what cars had for decades. Just look how heavy Six Volt battery cables are, that's because 6V is a stronger current than 12V. And you crank an engine longer with 6V. There's no need to change a perfectly fine car over to 12V. And if you want a modern stereo just get an inverter. Nor is there a problem with a 6V generator. Buy a 6V Optima battery because they take a charge fast and the generator will be fine. Think about it, an Inverter and an 6V Optima battery are a lot less money and bother than changing a 6V system to being 12V.

[@dgambrel9241]

I went back to points on my Model A, went to HEI in my newer model Ford’s but they were already electronic. The only problem with points is finding a good set.

[@hemidart7]

Yes these day's company's don't care about making good points because they don't sell like they use to

[@Peter-V_00]

@@hemidart7 True, plastic instead of phenolic cam blocks is the issue, the way to solve this is to hunt for NOS Blue Streak, Echlin, Atlas or Accel (to name a few) point sets, they are out there but you do have to be vigilant.

[@hemidart7]

@@Peter-V_00 Yes i have like 20 Accel & blue streaks sitting in a drawer... hahaha

[@MattsRageFitGarage]

@@Peter-V_00 I've had good success with the plastic cams on the standard brand points. One thing I have found is the spring tension from each set of contacts can vary greatly. Some would be 22oz, some 18oz, some 26oz for the same model and brand. This I feel is why a lot of people have premature rubbing block failure, along with dirty points cam lobes. Varnished rubbing block lube on the cam will wear the rubbing block down fast. I found 22oz spring on a set of red box (not t series) standard points was good to 6000 before the valves started floating and the dwell stayed steady for a very long time after the initial run in.

[@Peter-V_00]

@@MattsRageFitGarage Cam lube is a huge point and the wick to keep it in place.

[@peterl7346]

Good video, thanks. I was like you too, I converted a car once to a Pertronix module and removed the points/condensor from my factory Autolite distributor. I know it's not a full HEI ignition, but if you read all their claims, I too noticed absolutely no difference in performance, fuel economy or plug condition. The ONLY benefit in my opinion, is no regular dwell and gap checking. And if there is going to be something that will fail in this set up it will surely be the electronic module which is why I carry the original points and condensor with me in the boot.

[@livewire2759]

This is why UTG is the best performance automotive channel on YT... REAL testing, not just testing to sell parts... REAL building, not just building to get views.

[@brandonbell8159]

This is the first thing he has ever showed with any kind of so called proof!!! Nothing he does has been proven!!

[@brandonbell8159]

And he didn’t even do the test lmfao 🤣

[@livewire2759]

@@brandonbell8159 Why does he need to do the test when someone else already did? He even gave them credit rather than trying to take credit for himself... Go watch PowerNation and buy all of the latest and greatest parts and pretend you're faster than your neighbors because of it.

[@brandonbell8159]

@@livewire2759 🤣🤣 your dumb haha. I’ve never seen powernation before. I’ve been racing my whole life I always use a locked out hei!! I’ve I picked up almost 2 tenths going from a old dual point to a locked out hei!!

[@brandonbell8159]

@@livewire2759 you sound like a kid 🤷‍♂️

[@markallen1413]

Great job again brother 👍👍👍👍👍

[@sinistersilverado965]

I've had HEI systems go 100,000 miles with zero maintenance, do that with points

[@alecmcjarison999]

Impossible with points, hei is bulletproof most of the time

[@bbb462cid]

Indeed.

[@alecmcjarison999]

@@johnhull6363 that’s an electrical issue.. most likely nothing to do with hei

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

@@johnhull6363 I've never had an HEI fail, but they can and do! I've had a few points ignition coils fail, and of course plenty of points.

[@01trsmar]

Most people dont work on cars and cant put a set of points in,so hei is for you!

[@edge2sword186]

Because of exhaust emission demands by Federal Regulations the changes were made from points and carbs to electronic ignition and state the art fuel injection and many new devices to curb pollution including computers . Carbs and points work and are very reliable to those of us who know them and how to tune them .

[@gregschultz2029]

Thank You UT ,It sure gets old listening to all that ,You Gotta Have It B/S !!! My vehicles don’t have heated Seats ,And Somehow I have Survived !!!

[@seniorrider9337]

I had a 340 Swinger 4 speed back in 1970 that had a dual point dist. I was lucky that I was stationed at the BSU-1 boat shop and there we had 440 chrysler marine engines with dual point dists. So we had a machine to test and set up dual points and a guy who had been to school on the machine and how to set up dual point dist. He set up mine for me and it ran great, but would fall off at about 5300. And after 1500 miles the RPMs when it dropped off in power became lower. A chrysler tech told me to try the new Mopar kit for pointless electronic ignitions. The kit was $55.00. I got it and tried it. I was really happy. The power was back and didn't fall off until 5900. Best part was it stayed that way, even 10,000 miles later. Maybe at the drag strip points give more usable power, but the electronic ignition was always the same and just seat of the pants felt more powerful day after day.

[@jr78racer]

Thanks Tony. I've been wanting to see this shootout for awhile now. Interesting additional fact. Points are EMP proof. A nuclear blast will destroy electronics, but points are immune. More importantly, the law can't shut down a fleeing carb and points equipped car. 🤔😏

[@jeremypike9153]

No but bullets will and believe me that's their last resort.

[@jr78racer]

Bullets and stop strips were never a problem 😏😄

[@MikeN-cs8qe]

While our power grid will almost certainly be toast...an EMP actually might not affect your car as much at all according to the EMP commission. Several years ago they did a study on the effects of an EMP on 50 random cars and only 1 ended up dying. I know one thing....I hate to be a Tesla owner in that scenario. 🤣

[@samuelgoodman2825]

Our 67 289 Mustang still runs its single point distributor not just for originality but points are my preference as well.I like the old axiom keep it simple stupid.Also in case of a emp attack points function whereas the electronic will fry.Thats just a bonus in my opinion.Thanks Unc I live just a couple hours away in Virginia after I bring her out of mothballs I might have to give her a run out to meet.

[@95epiphone]

I have points in my 360 magnum. Absolutely love it

[@johntierno546]

Tony agree with you I have 4 mopars and 1 Oldsmobile that all had been converted to electronic ignition when I bought them. For more of the reason of originality I switched them all back to factory points distributors and they all run great. 2 of them were noticeably faster with the factory points. 71 hemi charger and 70 dart 340. The "better" mopar performance electronic distributor was only giving the hemi 10 degrees mechanical advance. Points distributor 22 degrees mechanical advance, huge difference felt at high rpm. Before it would go flat. Dual point will rev until you lift your foot

[@CZ350tuner]

In the late 1890's to 1900's period, a lot of the first cars were using exciter boxes & points ignition, such as the model T Ford. Exciter boxes can be a bit of a shock when setting points as the points arm is always "hot". I've worked on vintage exciter box ignitions. An exciter box constantly produces HT current and the points connect it to the spark plug. An exciter box uses a high speed switching self latching ON / OFF / ON / OFF, etc. relay connected to an HT coil and powered from a battery or dynamo. If directly connected to a spark plug, there will be a continuous spark. Exciter boxes generate a lot of RF interference, so if you passed somebody yakking on there cell phone in traffic, you driving a car with exciter box ignition, they'd lose connection immediately. Only jet engines still use exciter box ignition. Magneto ignition (invented by Sir Oliver Lodge in 1898) first appeared on motorcycles in the 1900's before rapidly spreading to early cars.

[@aol11]

I'm with you man, my Maverick has a Mallory dual points and an 850 double.

[@racehemi426425]

Whatever a 1964 Chrysler 426 Hemi had, that's what I want. Less dependence on electricity is the genius part of it

[@TargaWheels]

Point distributors will fire an engine when the battery is weak or failing. HEI distributors won't once the battery gets below a certain point. Points will give you one more chance to start and get home if the battery in run down. Seen that a few times.

[@bdogjr7779]

Wow《☆》Even @7000 rpm points are winning😎🎱☮🔊✌👍

[@lenmaki3058]

The breaker plate in a chevy points distributor must be in good condition to turn any higher rpm I used echlin points in the late sixties in the solid lifter engines

[@radioguy1620]

Like to see a comparo with a Multiple spark setup , I ran a boat with twin 427 Fords with mallory ign points and was always hard to start but added on a crane HI set up and would start instantly and idle down to 400 rpm in gear swinging a 20 inch prop, also put a unit on my 88 Ranger 4 and my nephews 302 Cougar and worked great. then they stopped making them I heard so when they failed or do , just unplug and go on the points alone again

[@jasonfikes9514]

Would be interesting to see how a dual point set up would compare to the hi p.o. hei in that dyno, especially after seeing how well the single point set up did.

[@charlesprice7608]

A dual point still doesn’t produce the voltage a HEI does. He found one article to back up his idea points are better, and even the experts still said switch to HEI. If points where making more horse then racers would still use them. Next time your at a race walk through the pits and see how many points set ups you see. Hell next he will tell us drum brakes work better than disc, and get back to those bias ply tires that your lucky to get 10,000 miles out of. 🤦‍♂️

[@charlesprice7608]

@MTR funny he can only find one article to back up his BS and even the experts in the article, real experts tell you to go with HEI. But feel free to follow his advise 🤦‍♂️ technology advances for a reason. The BS on here has gotten old. I Like the concept of his channel, tired nothing ever actually getting finished, and blatantly bad advise.

[@charlesprice7608]

@MTR it wasn’t there products, we used to pull them out of junkyards, completely intact distributors for next to nothing. A complete factory HEI unit will produce twice the voltage of a points system. I will take an HEI over points everyday and twice on Sunday. And I don’t care what one article says, racers go with what makes the most power, and nobody that’s serious about racing is running points. We can agree to disagree though!

[@d100hemi]

@@charlesprice7608 twice the voltage over points?keep dreaming buddy!

[@charlesprice7608]

@@d100hemi not dreaming it’s a fact, HEI puts out 64,000 volts, a points set up 26,000 to 30,000 if you can read look it up. If not go on talking about things you know nothing about. 🤦‍♂️ if I didn’t know it to be true I wouldn’t have said it, not trying to impress anyone, especially you. The reason for the variation in the points has to due with the dwell setting. Buddy 😂😂🤣🤣

[@peterivero4337]

I played with dwell and timing for what I wanted to achieve. No computers controlling them days... just searching.

[@bigbear5510]

ROLL UP YOUR CIGARETTE UNCLE TONY!!! LOL IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!!! It's funny how these "experts" contradict what the dyno test shows. You'll get more voltage for more power and better spark for a cleaner burn, which this can be done with a bigger coil. This is coming from the people who will benefit a profit from you purchasing their products. All three state reliability, well maintained points will give you the same reliability. I would love to see what the dyno would show with the same test on a 383 stoker or any performance engine because I think the results would be very similar to the ones in the article. Most of the cars I have had over the years have been electronic but I have issues that were more difficult to diagnose than a vehicle with a points setup, so... it's a coin toss and whatever one prefers to use. I do plan on converting my '88 Crown Vic to points when I build another engine for it and I never had a problem with the factory setup. I just think it will be an advantage to do so.

[@bigbear5510]

@@frenchonion4595 And ya get free fertilizer too.

[@bcbloc02]

Now we need a dyno test against a Mallory Magspark setup!!

[@OverlandOne]

My first 3 cars had dual point distributors and, all of them made great horsepower and high rpm's was not an issue.

[@davebruton5731]

Forgive me , Uncle Tony but I've only known of you since visiting your KZbin channel . You've got real talent . Your straight forward way of explaining how and why things work , without any confusion ! One question : what magazines did you work with ? We'd all like to hear more about your history or resum'e of your work .