Politics, the Bible, Christian Nationalism, and Hauerwas vs. O'Donovan: Kaitlyn Schiess

Kaitlyn is a writer, author, and a doctoral student at Duke Divinity School studying political theology, ethics, and biblical interpretation. She graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary in 2021 with a ThM in systematic theology and is the author of two books: The Liturgy of Politics: Spiritual Formation for the Sake of Our Neighbor and The Ballot and the Bible: How Scripture Has Been Used and Abused in American Politics and Where We Go from Here.
This podcast conversation goes all over the map, but we discuss things related to politics in general, economic policy, her book The Ballot and the Bible, Christian Nationalism, her journey away from a full on Hauerwasian political theology toward a more...O'Donovan-ish approach, and many other things.
If you've enjoyed this content, please subscribe to my channel!
Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: / theologyintheraw
Or you can support me directly through Venmo: @Preston-Sprinkle-1
Visit my personal website: www.prestonspr...
For questions about faith, sexuality & gender: www.centerforf...
My Facebook public page: www.facebook.c...
My Facebook private page: / preston.sprinkle.7
Twitter: @PrestonSprinkle
Instagram: preston.sprinkle

[@1991jj]

As a huge fan of Hauerwas I greatly appreciated this discussion. Hope to hear more about Kaitlyn and her work in the future.

[@Gregorydrobny]

"If we could start by getting the rich people to pay..." The biggest shortcoming of students in this area of thought is the lack of curiosity they demonstrate towards competing economic theory, and how those theories fit in with solid theology. It's as if many just want to plow forward with caricatures of theories rather than the actual theories themselves, which doesn't go very far.

[@Gregorydrobny]

Later in the podcast, the question of whether or not "Christian Nationalism" is bad exposes a more fundamental problem here, which is just a broader and deeper version of my first comment: a lack of curiosity about, 1) how these questions have been addressed historically (beyond the walls of America), and 2) the natural and proven consequences of certain political actions when compared to others. Both of these require more in-depth reading than is typically comfortable, even for those with formal education. Don't just address "hard questions" with a biblical approach; be willing to address the very paradigm with which you are using to ask and answer questions.

[@markbeeksma8035]

My concern is that Preston and Kaitlyn are more studied in the Bible than in economics. The Bible tells us to care for poor people. Economics tells us how to do it. For example, before the U.S. welfare program, black Americans were closing the gap over time against whites, economically. The welfare system was designed by Pres. LBJ not to close the gap, but to secure the black vote for the Democratic party. LBJ was a racist who was not concerned with helping blacks, but with securing their votes. His welfare program was successful in securing the black vote, but it was also successful in keeping blacks in poverty. After the welfare program, blacks began to lose ground economically against whites. That is exactly what LBJ had planned. If the Democrats can keep blacks poor and dependent on Democratic subsidies, they can secure their votes. The welfare system gave money to blacks as long as they were not married and not working. This is a recipe for their disaster. The reason that blacks were hurt more than whites by LBJ's welfare system is because they were more vulnerable than whites. I think it is appropriate for the U.S. system to subsidize black families with children, but it is more wise and helpful to make the subsidies available to all families with children, regardless of whether they are married or working, or not. We need to stop disincentivizing progress for poor families. We can promote Federal policies that spread the wealth, but we should never use it to disincentivize the behaviors that are necessary for forward progress for poor communities.

[@PatrickThreewit]

If people get the idea that the Bible teaches us to care for one another, they must not be reading from the Bible I study from. I get the opposite.

[@troybody6662]

Kaitlin just told you that wasn't true. White people, after the Brown vs The Board of Education decision, did not want to go to school with Black children, so they moved away, built "Christian" schools that charge tuition, and took money from public schools. They moved their businesses, and made sure that buses did not run from the previous neighborhoods to the suburbs. They handed out tickets to Black people driving in the suburbs. Red lined Black people from buying houses. So, America did everything that they could not to allow Blacks to have equal footing. The KKK grew. Statues of Confederate heroes increased during the Civil Rights Movement to provoke fear. The Evangelicals ran on abortion during Nixon and won! Yet, Numbers Chapter 5 talks about abortion. These Black people had no choice but welfare, because White people did not want Black people. It holds true today. These doctors, lawyers, professors, politicians attacked WOKE, removed Black history under Trump. Removed Affirmative Action. The Southern Baptist Convention (The Southern Church) supported slavery for 200 years! Now prohibits the teaching of Critical Race Theory in the Black church. So, ya. Welfare wasn't the problem. Racism is.

[@johnnycha-rach1112]

Kaitlyn What is wealth redistribution? Is it really just good old socialism? Is the Bible in favor of that? I mean do you give away your wealth personally?

[@GraceOnly3]

Listening to audible version of her book now -

[@elizabethbillingsley5534]

She was wise about fear. Fear is in the amygdala, rational thinking belongs to the cerebral cortex. You absolutely have to deal with the fear.

[@717790]

Really good stuff. I have thought about this a lot, considering we have politicians that always say God bless America 🇺🇸. Even with 9/11 and other false flags the US has been involved with it makes me wonder how much of a “city on a hill shining bright” we are. The comment regarding the military industrial complex is a really good point. Something that President Eisenhower warned about in his farewell address.

[@NaturalTheologian]

I'm a big fan of this conversation, and I'm guessing you've sorted this out by now, but at 57:00 or so you confused William Wolfe with Stephen Wolfe. Stephen Wolfe wrote while William Wolfe is just an activist Twitter Baptist.

[@wailingrachel9274]

Probably not your only Atheist subscriber, but love your channel.

[@BenjaminJohnson-hq1qe]

Preston, I love your show. Sometimes, your political questions are a bit cringey though. I know you like to think about politics as Left and Right, but it might be helpful to start thinking about politics along the authoritarian v. democratic spectrum. Using lies, such as the big lie that Trump had the election stolen from him is straight out of the authoritarian playbook. It truly is a all hands on deck effort to preserve democracy, as authoritarian leaders have a very long record of distorting, co-opting, corrupting or outright impeding Christian witness. Cornel West for president? That's basically a vote for Trump and Christian Nationalism. I know you live in ruby red Idaho, so that gives you a bit more liberty to vote....creatively...😉but thinking out loud in a podcast to Americans in all the 50 states carries a bit of responsibility. If you get a chance, I think you would have a fascinating conversation with someone like Adam Kinzinger. He is a sincere Conservative Christian who is more pro-interventionist in places like Ukraine and he was chased from Republican Party for his calling out January 6 for what it was, a coup attempt.

[@mallen6783]

The reason we shouldn't use the Bible as a day to day guide or as an moral compass, is exactly for the reasons you brought up that it could be interpreted in many different ways, am i missing something?

[@westyso.cal.8842]

You might be “missing something.” The Bible is the very words of God, and it is an all-sufficient resource to address all areas of your life. When we allow the scriptures to shape us and direct our steps, and inform our decisions, we are applying God’s word directly to our lives.

[@mallen6783]

Granted, say the Bible is all word of god and has all sufficient resources to life, there's still endless interpretations to be made, so which interpretation should one use to apply to life?

[@westyso.cal.8842]

@@mallen6783 Great question. I’ve heard it said that there is “one interpretation, but multiple applications.” Perhaps that is where we get hung up sometimes. How do we properly apply it?

[@zendofzwrld]

>the problem with CNs is they villify the other and exclude them >We people, who are the only ones who read books, need tl excluxe CNs from local politics until they agree with us These two are just neolibs talking about neolib stuff and then naming theologians that are also neolib. I would recommend someone like Joe Boot or other general equity van tilloan theonomists that get lumped in with CN. If you want to really party (and be challenged) listen to some rushdoony.

[@zendofzwrld]

Are you talking about poor people or black people. Whether anyone wamts to admit it or not, "wellfare" is am extremely broad category that has very different effects on different people. Hundreds of billions, if not trillions, have been spent trying to help black people around the world. Thay particular question doesn't seem to have an answer.

[@troybody6662]

It's not that hard. Treat us as equals. You can see how Biden housed illegal aliens in the Black neighborhoods to the tune of a billion dollars, but did nothing for these Black AMERICANS. Trump denied reparations, but gave to Israel. Biden gave $200 billion to Israel, $50 billion to Ukraine. They both have built Cop City all over the US. Yet, the news talks about increased crime, but never says in what form to what percent. Just provoking fear of Black people. So, stop attacking WOKE to disassociate from the conversation being had. Restore Affirmative Action. Stop lying about Critical Race Theory.

[@n.d.6430]

You can slam Trump but never do I hear you slam Biden and his policies

[@annlowry9841]

I wish I was her dentist!

[@westyso.cal.8842]

Perhaps Preston would consider inviting William Wolfe onto the show to have a “curious conversation?”