A Historian, OT Scholar, and Sociologist discuss "The Bible and Politics!"

A Historian, OT Scholar, and Sociologist walk into a debrief and discuss Kaitlyn's latest Holy Post video, "The Bible and Politics." What did they like about it? What would they have added? Listen in and find out!
Big thanks to Carmen Imes, Andrew Whitehead, and Malcolm Foley for taking the time to chat.
The Bible and Politics video - • The Bible & Politics -...
The Ballot and the Bible by Kaitlyn Schiess - amzn.to/45OpcyC
American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church by Andrew Whitehead - amzn.to/3KZeuO4
Being God's Image: Why Creation Still Matters by Carmen Imes - amzn.to/3Pd4eEn
Theology in Pieces Podcast with Malcolm Foley - www.theologyin...

[@TheGretsch6120]

Great conversation. One thing I always thought was that Christian Nationalism assumes all the blessings of the Israelites with zero of the responsibility and accountability for them as recorded in the Bible.

[@christinec3170]

Not only are so many people misusing scripture, many have not learned the art of thoughful dialog and discussion (rhetoric). I'm thankful that The Holy Post is sharing thoughtful ideas that contribute towards dialog and conversation among believers on very challenging (and dare I say divisive) topics Christians face today. Let's all come to the table, set aside our "us vs. them" thoughts for a moment and really listen. The more the world sees Chrisians arguing and bickering with one another, the more people will say, "No, thanks, I dont want any of that."

[@Meemilicious]

Why do I feel like a joke coming on? “An historian, OT scholar & sociologist walk into a bar…”

[@PattyEverAfter]

This four-some definitely needs to return once a month to talk church and politics. ❤

[@jamietaylor4260]

So about that Biden quote... I remember when it happened and people were largely upset at the comparison. But I think it would be worth considering that there can be other sources for Bible awareness in politicians. I think it's highly likely he had another source for that quote in mind. There's a VERY popular post Vatican 2 hymn called "Here I Am, Lord". It's sung in lots of liturgical denominations. The refrain borrows imagery from Isaiah 6 and 1 Samuel 3. It sets both as analogies for a Christian's call to serve. I would bet my right eye that a regular Mass attender of Joe Biden's age has sung that hymn about 10 times a year or more over the last 40 years. The phrasing he used sounds much more like the refrain in that song than a direct quote. Is it much better? Maybe not, but it shows a context for drawing a general analogy of service that is at least understandable. By the way, not the first appearance of a post Vatican 2 popular hymn in a Biden speech. On Eagle's Wings made an appearance as well.

[@signingcharity]

I was thinking the same thing. Even went back to read the speech and thought he was probably harkening to that.

[@jamietaylor4260]

​@@signingcharity It jumped right out at me. Glad I'm not alone! I was honestly surprised to see the criticism but realized that was probably due to this song being outside evangelical subcultures. It's really a Catholic/ Mainline song. Biden is like most of the oldest generation in my family: grew up pre Vatican 2 (Latin mass, professional cantors, little congregational singing) but raised kids in the post Vatican 2 church. There was a major cultural shift in the US Catholic worship experience, with these sorts of scripture heavy folk hymns crossing back and forth between Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran and Methodist musicians. Goodness, Marty Haugen's impact alone... If the Bidens are like my family, 99% of the scripture they've internalized comes from the music of that specific time.

[@rea6601]

😊

[@adamrshields]

I think it is reasonable that it was from the song but the song is still from scripture and so I am not sure that it really changes the discussion because it is still a scripture reference, just one that is mediated through a song first.

[@karenallen7064]

This was a very helpful insight. It's not a hymn I'm aware of at all!

[@ringthembells143]

No first century Christian would ever have been accused of nationalistic pride🔔🚨🔔

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

So many Christians have no problem with an American flag being in the sanctuary of their church or having "patriotic" services. I wonder if they would've approved of Roman regalia had they been living in the first century Roman Empire.

[@bethrossiter1857]

except Peter 🤷‍♀️

[@christinec3170]

​​@@bethrossiter1857Perhaps @ringthembells is referring to Rome (which was the dominant government of the time) and first century believers were having to live under persecution...

[@elbryant1226]

Great conversation. I just started reading Kaitlyn's book this past week. Here book would be a great companion book with Andrew Whitehead's recent book.

[@adamrshields]

I think Mark Noll’s history of the use of the Bible in the US from 1794 until 1911, America’s Book is also a good partner to both. Noll gives a lot of historical examples beyond the ones in the Ballot and the Bible. And I think Karen Swallow Prior’s Evangelical Imagination also is helpful in drawing out the ways that evangelical culture can distort the reading of the Bible. She makes the case that many Evangelical traditions are rooted more in Victorian era culture rather than the Bible.

[@amobrmexy]

I’m a bit underwhelmed with the answers to the final question about advising Christians how to wisely discern the use of Scripture in politics. They basically each said- understand the Bible according to what I personally find important. I too am against Christian nationalism and for the help of the marginalized, but firstly those aren’t the only issues within Scripture, and also simply telling people to discern according what I tell you the right focus is hardly helps to create understanding, thinking Christians. It’s honestly the same tactic they find dangerous when done by those on the other side they disagree with. The answer should be How, not What.

[@tomfrombrunswick7571]

This will come across as patronizing. However it is pleasant to see some highly intelligent Christian people discuss issues in a reasonable and insightful way. So much of Christian content on KZbin is so annoying

[@edluckenbill9382]

Great video ! Like the historian. Did take the land from the Indians forcefully also .

[@cecilwinthorp4038]

I have yet to hear a pastor or politician speak on Exodus 21:16 (Yes there are more than 10 commandments).

[@edluckenbill9382]

Like over 500 commandments .

[@2serve4Christ]

"...there are times when the most instructive question to bring to the [#Bible] is not 'what does it say?', but 'what am I looking for?' I suspect #Jesus knew this when he said, 'ask and it will be given to you, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened.' If you want to do violence in this world, you will always find the weapons. If you want to heal, you will always find the balm." - Rachel Held Evans (RIP)

[@NoahFred29]

Nice you checked all the boxes - black male , white male and two white women… very diverse… very good 👍 Social Justice Warriors around the World applaud 👏 you! Virtue Signalers Unite !!!!

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

The irony of people opposing "virtue signaling" by signaling their own virtue through these types of comments never gets old. You must be so proud!

[@NoahFred29]

@@makejesusgreatagain7220 no I’m humbled … by the mighty hand of God.

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

​@@NoahFred29 well, you're not showing it.

[@NoahFred29]

@@makejesusgreatagain7220 because I don’t read the Bible in a subjective Liberal lens ?

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

@@NoahFred29 regardless of your methods of interpretation, you've come to the conclusion that diversity and social justice are bad enough that you actively fight against it. I've rarely seen the fruit of the Spirit from such people. Maybe you should check out Jesus sometime. You'd be surprised how "woke" He is if you give Him a chance.

[@thetruest7497]

The problem with the idea of "misusing scripture" is that the all knowing God knew this would happen with the scripture and still created this way, so it is the way he wanted it to be. Christians need to consider the problems that all knowing and all powerful create for this deity.

[@rodneystewart-wilcox4001]

God knew we would sin but that does mean that God made that or wanted it to happen.

[@thetruest7497]

@@rodneystewart-wilcox4001 did he know how people would use the bible before he inspired it?

[@patrickc3419]

@@thetruest7497 Yes. God doesn’t learn anything, change His mind, or have a “Plan B”.

[@thetruest7497]

@patrickc3419 I agree that this is how Christians tend to view God. The problem is Luke 2:52.

[@patrickc3419]

@@thetruest7497 Okay, and I completely agree with you sharing that verse of Jesus’s growth. Everyone, not simply you and I, need to read and interpret scripture using context, context, and context, not whatever fits the narrative of our politically correct times we find ourselves in. A spiritual mentor once told me the best way to gain a grasp of a verse is to read the 3 verses right before it, and the 3 verses right after it. So what’s happening at this point in Jesus’ life? It’s right when he was still quite young, and his parents found him at the temple listening to the lessons taught. His ministry hasn’t yet begun, he hasn’t yet been baptized in the Jordan by John the Baptist. He hasn’t yet called his apostles. He’s fully God, yet fully man. And yet without sin. When the passage reads he grew “in wisdom and stature” (and pretty much every translation uses these words) it’s saying he increased in two things: 1.) In his literal physicality. That’s just a part of nature. In growth from infant to toddler to child to teenager to adult, we physically grow. Height, weight, hair, etc. 2.) In wisdom doesn’t mean that he was at any time unaware of his divinity. Being fully man meant he still had to learn to read, feed himself, be potty trained, take a bath, etc. None of those things negated his being God in human flesh. In his humanity, Jesus experienced all the things that you and I do, including temptation (Hebrews 4), yet was without sin. He never had to repent. He did what you and I could never do; live a life of cradle to grave perfection. What he was learning in “wisdom” was earthly knowledge, not spiritual. Probably included learning the still-valuable trade of carpentry, from his dad, Joseph.

[@israelmacario3853]

Can you have someone that disagrees with the book?

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

There's already plenty of that in the comments section and the rest of KZbin. This isn't really a debate channel. They don't have leftists appear on their channel either.

[@israelmacario3853]

@@makejesusgreatagain7220 what is the point of this video. Skye did a great job of presenting the book. This didn't bring anything new.

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

@@israelmacario3853 not everyone watches the podcast, and this video is a shorter time commitment. There were guests on the video as well.

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

@@israelmacario3853 we're going into election season, and there's a lot at stake. Doesn't hurt to have another video on it.

[@NW-sm8xq]

Depends on how you define "leftist".

[@asdfrozen]

Is Dr. Whitehead giving any talks this semester? I recently moved to Indianapolis and I'd love to attend a lecture or something!

[@ndrewwhitehead]

Yes! I'll share on social media when those happen.

[@asdfrozen]

@@ndrewwhitehead Awesome, thanks!

[@n.d.6430]

You get bible misquote for both parties ! Vote by biblical policies ! For Isreal! Pro life ! And against sexual sin

[@hsuehhs1]

This is why I can’t stand CBN News! It’s hard to believe that Superbook is on CBN because Superbook teaches pretty woke messages

[@ericcarlson9885]

I found this video on the Bible and politics (along with Kaitlyn’s previous one on the same topic) as deeply, deeply troubling. The “Quest for the Historical Jesus” was soundly criticized because every new version that came out made Jesus a clone of each particular scholar’s ideal man. Now, it seems that we have folks on the right AND the left lecture us on how the Bible views politics exactly the same as each new scholar’s own politics trends. Well, all I can say is “a plague on both your houses”! The Christian Nationalism of a Lauren Boebert or a Marjorie Taylor Greene makes a mockery of Scripture. But so does the clearcut secular globalism of the Holy Post crew! When will somebody-anybody-stand up and say that BOTH sides of our divisive national political debate are about as far from Scripture as it is possible to get? How can you rail against Christian Nationalism but stay silent against a Democratic Party that is exuberantly pro-choice, celebrates same-sex life styles, wishes to promote transgenderism to young children, and denigrates Evangelicalism every chance it gets! Both the right AND the left are anti-democratic…and potentially tyrannical …and the alt-left outnumbers the alt-right ten to one! If you want to come up with a biblical way of dealing with our present national crisis, please do so. But quit endorsing (and voting for) leaders who are brazenly pagan and postmodern (simply because their rhetoric makes you feel good about how compassionate they say they are)! Quit taking the splinter out of your brother’s eye…and take a gander at that log facing you in the mirror!

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

Why is slavery immoral, and how did slave masters justify their practices leading up to the Civil War using slavery?

[@adamrshields]

It is hard to take seriously a comment that labels this group of scholars secular globalists and suggest that they are not looking internally to ask if their own biases are impacting their reading. That is really the main point of Kaitlyn’s book.

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

I happen to find palingenetic ultranationalism to be deeply, deeply disturbing.

[@ericcarlson9885]

@@adamrshields Perhaps you’re right. After all, I haven’t read Kaitlyn’s book. I have listened to her quite a bit here, and, to me, her introspection rings hollow. She’s sniffing for White Supremacists and Christian Nationalists under every Evangelical Republican rock while deftly giving every Evangelical Democrat a pass.

[@ericcarlson9885]

@@makejesusgreatagain7220 Me, too. In fact, ultranationalists of any stripe scare me to death! Nonetheless, I will sleep easy at night until you’re able to point one out to me anywhere near my neck of the woods. Christian Nationalism is an invented bogeyman of the left. We’ve had hyper-patriotic fundamentalists for just about forever. And yes, they tend to be somewhat racist and more-than-somewhat anti-intellectual. But, in general, they’re solid, upstanding citizens who are not a threat to anybody. I assume your other question was about slave masters using their Bibles to justify their heinous practices. Not hard to answer. They had cultural presuppositions strong enough that you yourself would have given into them. They were “evaluating” an institution which had always and everywhere existed, an institution which, in many ways, had made it possible for the poor to-oh, I don’t know-live a little longer than they might otherwise have lived. Whole societies were trapped into perpetuating some form of serfdom…it was either that or starve. It took industrialization, along with free markets and democratization, to change these things. It wasn’t just the rise of abolitionist ideals. And yeah, just like today, the managerial class both made the whole system possible…and exploited the masses to benefit themselves. Good and bad. We keep trying to restrain the bad without “cramping the style” of the good. Neither the left nor the right is doing a very good job of getting the balance correct. It would be nice is they would at least try. The Bible directly excoriates and condemns slave traders while merely telling slave masters to be kind because it simply wasn’t practicable for them to free their slaves. In all honestly, it probably wasn’t even possible on a grand scale.

[@chrisregas5045]

13:10 Hard to understand why taking the Bible out of context is wrong for conservatives but okay for progressives when applied to social justice issues they promote?!?!?

[@makejesusgreatagain7220]

Example?

[@middleofthemit]

Do you mean the sermon on the mount?

[@reenchanted]

They spend pretty much the whole video saying it’s bad for either side and even call out Biden for one of his misuses. I’m not sure what you think you heard that said it was ok for either side to misuse the Bible?

[@thetruest7497]

I think taking it out of context is a problem for all sides. And unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective literally everything is out of context if you're trying to apply the book to today's world. It wasn't written for us or by us and they couldn't have imagined the type of issues we have today.

[@johnmorawski1778]

Thanks for this.