polyphonic Aftertouch - Do You Really Need It? 🤔

[@jdoo2252]

Before polyphonic aftertouch the common question in reviews was "does it have microtonal tuning". Both esoteric

[@IanWaugh]

Ha! Ha! I don't remember tht one 😄

[@mwmusic29]

Fantastic topic, Ian and well presented. My experience with Poly AT has been limited to the Hydrasynth Expolorer. Prior to that synth I had not used Poly AT at all and wasn't a real believer in its potential - but to be fair I hadn't really used any aftertouch at all on a regular basis. The first patch on the Hydrasynth (don't remember the name) sold me instantly on the virtues of Poly AT as it gave me the ability to chord with the left hand and use the right hand for lead since the Poly AT let me modulate just the lead notes. I was hooked. I have since moved on from the Explorer though and I'm back to the land of channel AT and while I don't feel limited in the work I'm doing I do see an opening in my studio for a Poly AT capable synth or controller. Thanks again for this great topic - well done!

[@IanWaugh]

Thank you. I think PAT can be great fun when improvising as you describe 👍 The Hydra is a great synth, too 😊

[@stevec.1802]

Wonderful explanation and presentation. I’m looking for a gigging all in one stage keyboard with after touch where I can access those 70’s & 80’s synth I remember. Glad I had found your channel.

[@IanWaugh]

Very kind, Steve, thank you 👍

[@panutalus]

When I found myself a great polyphonic aftertouch keyboard with soft sensitivity (GEM S3 turbo), it had pretty huge impact on me. The difference, the feeling of moving from channel aftertouch to polyphonic aftertouch felt pretty much the same when I very first time changed from stereo to surround sound home theather. It was really amazing and revelation how this new world opened for me. There always has been way too many keyboards with bad aftertouch mechanism making people think they don't need one. Also most of the Ensoniq keyboards from 90's had polyphonic aftertouch but basically the mechanism has gone bad by default by age so that all of them are very stiff and difficult to use. Luckily, we are finally getting more and more modern implementations of polyphonic aftertouch and alternatives when like decade ago there were literally none.

[@IanWaugh]

Good to hear. Hopefully the gear will continue to improve 👍

[@skrie]

I really need it. It's suits my playing style. Obsessing over Poly-AT has changed my life. Not sure if it was for the better. But the impact of Poly-AT is massive if you ask me.

[@IanWaugh]

I'm sure it was very much for the better 😊 👍

[@drsamurai009]

Poly AT is definitely not for everyone, especially if you only work inside the computer. For me, Poly AT simply affords me the ability to perform and record expressively in a single pass rather than individual parts recorded on two or more takes. Using controllers like the QuNexus, Xkey and Roli Seaboard, and synths like the Hydrasynth and Osmose, for my 2 cents, here is my list of pros and cons.... Pro - control of individual notes in a chord Con (on Osmose and Seaboards) - individual notes in a chord can drift out of tune due to shifting finger weight, hand to finger pressure, wrist fatigue and so on, so I rarely use it for this feature when playing those keyboards and limit my performance with one or two fingers per hand. (It's surprising how huge and expressive just a few notes can become, after all most orchestral solos are played on monophonic instruments.) Pro - individual articulations like filter and volume swells or vibrato per note, Con - Finger, wrist elbow and shoulder fatigue if you're not in Poly AT shape. My first nights on a Seaboard, the Hydrasynth or the Osmose all resulted in serious soreness after an hour or more playing, which I felt for a few days, and time flies when you are deep into sound and performance exploration you never experienced before. Pro - incredibly expressive live performance and "live" audio recordings Con - if recording MIDI for later editing, the Poly AT data stream is HUGE and in some cases (older machines) can crash a DAW, so unless you have to record this way, I'd recommend recording audio performances only. On a side note, provided you have a powerful enough computer, and the DAW can manage it, if you set up any VST on 16 tracks with 16 copied instances of the patch on all 16 midi channels, then any MPE Poly AT controller or synth should be able to have that individual articulation, even on the oldest VST, but that is a long way around the barn I admit.

[@IanWaugh]

Awesome! Thank you for your input. PAT certainly has it's place 👍

[@NexxuSix]

The thing about it is, that some of the most popular synths like Synclavier didn’t have aftertouch. Aftertouch evolved over time as a need by synthesist for a more expressive way of making music. Today, it is nearly a standard. I truly wish midi controller manufacturers would think outside the box, and give us polyphonic AT, and joysticks on these midi controllers. They give us some of the best software synthesizers these days, but severely limit their capabilities with the controller.

[@IanWaugh]

Indeed. It's interesting to hear what folks think about the likes of the Osmose 👍 Manufacturers could certainly do more with controllers - XY controller anyone? - and some can't even manage to put faders on them... 😤

[@synthseeker]

I like channel aftertouch and IMO poly is nice but not required. But I also tend to mostly use monosynths. :)

[@IanWaugh]

Hi Luke - No problem for you, then 😄

[@mudi2000a]

By the way the Launchpad X and Launchpad Pro also support Poly Aftertouch. I have the Launchpad X and I think the Aftertouch is quite controllable. But you need to practice a bit. Also it’s not expensive.

[@IanWaugh]

Good to know 👍 Any new controller need some practice, unfortunately 😊

[@SamLibman]

Just got my first Poly-AT synth (UB-Xa) and it’s been wonderful!

[@IanWaugh]

Good to hear - have fun! 👍

[@NeuroPete]

Interesting question, Ian, and good explanation of what polyphonic aftertouch can be used for. I have thought about this a lot, because I would like to have this feature, but not enough to go through the hassle of selling my existing keyboard, which otherwise does everything I want. I could afford to buy a second keyboard, but I don’t have the room for it. As a music hobbyist, I am certain I don’t “need” any of the music gear I buy. In my case, the better question to ask myself is, could I make use of MPE in the type of music I would like to produce? I would say, yes. There are times when I’m holding down a big chord with two hands, where I’d like different notes to change timbre over time. Tim Shoebridge’s software looks useful, but it doesn’t look like it would enable this particular feature. In my DAW, Studio One, I can enable MPE mode for any virtual instrument that supports it, and draw in automation curves on a per-note basis. But either way, it would be nice to be able to express in real time. If I ever buy another keyboard, I will consider MPE, but only if I get all the other features that I want.

[@IanWaugh]

Yes, I think it's nice but certainly not essential. Have you looked at the Osmose?

[@NeuroPete]

@@IanWaugh Yes, I looked at the Osmose. It excites me. It offers several per-key controls beyond just aftertouch and velocity - I think even more than the Roli Seaboard. Also, I prefer that the keyboard is more traditional than the Roli. I was concerned that the Osmose would be limited mostly to patches from the onboard synth engine, and that it would be difficult to control software virtual instruments. However, Expressive E, who make the Osmose, sell a collection of MPE presets for Kilohearts’ Phase Plant, one of my favourite soft synths. In addition to being valuable sounds themselves, the presets would demonstrate techniques that could be applicable to other MPE capable soft Synths, such as more than a dozen from Arturia, including Pigments, CS-80 V, SQ-80 V, and Korg MS-20 V.

[@IanWaugh]

@@NeuroPete Yes indeed. Although there are compatible plugins, they are still in the minority although as these sort of controllers become more popular - assuming they do 😊 - more instrument should support them.

[@Shred_The_Weapon]

It could be that [many of us] have no need for a synthesizer or keyboard controller equipped with polyphonic aftertouch. Subjectively, I’ve owned (among others) an Alesis QS6, a Roland JX-10 (which I no longer own), a JX-8p, a Minimoog Voyager (Electric Blue) and a Yamaha S90XS, all synthesizer models equipped with mono aftertouch. I deliberated from may 2021 to almost exactly 3 years later I’m getting my latest synthesizer purchase, the Hydrasynth Explorer, partly because of it being both portable and palatable for writing patches on and also because of (the novelty of having) polyphonic aftertouch. In fact, it has added me in one of the patches I have written as of Sept. 2024, a patch meant to emulate the mechanical sounds of the dishwasher my parents owned when I was born. That is something that I don’t think anyone has ever tried doing, duplicating dishwasher sounds, and I couldn’t sample the appliance itself since it was gotten rid of circa 1990. The aftertouch was useful in controlling the volume level of noise with one key.

[@IanWaugh]

Awesonme! No, not heard of anyone programming a dishwasher sound 😄 The Hydra is a great synth and its PAT implementation is reckoned to be one of the best 👍

[@Shred_The_Weapon]

That patch was fun to write and to record, Ian. Additionally, this little monster makes a first-rate controller for my two analog modules, the MKS-70 and the Matrix 1000.

[@IanWaugh]

@@Shred_The_Weapon Excellent! You're all set for any other gear that supports PAT. A few software doobries do 😄👍

[@Shred_The_Weapon]

If ever I turned my attention back to VST plug-ins, Ian, one of them would likely be an emulation of the CS-80 for that reason.

[@IanWaugh]

@@Shred_The_Weapon I use Arturia's and I think Cherry do a good one, too 😊

[@dvamateur]

I need polyphonic aftertouch on Minimoog Model D!

[@IanWaugh]

Maybe one of the software emulators supports it? 😊

[@dvamateur]

@IanWaugh It was a joke. Minimoog is a monophonic synthesizer. Why would it need a polyphonic aftertouch?

[@IanWaugh]

@@dvamateur ER, yes - back atcha 😄- , but I'm sure some of the emulations can play it polyphonically 🤣

[@davidriddle6798]

Playing a chord with polyphonic aftertouch can give you a nice organic sound, with each note changing differently over time in a ununiform way. Much like a string section in a orchestra would do. This is said to be biggest thing that sets the Yamaha CS80 form other analogue polys at the time, and why a lot of musicians liked to play it. The problem is aftertouch polyphonic or monophonic on normal keyboards are so badly implemented it is next to useless. The keys have so little movement for aftertouch, it is more off and on than a real control range. Some synths like ASM Hydrasynth are said to have a keybed that handles it better. I have yet to try one so I don't know. I have a Expressive E Osmose and the experience of aftertouch on this is quite different. The per note pitch bend and glide need practise to master and can make your playing sound bad, but the poly aftertouch is easy. If you turn off the pitch bend and glide, and just have the poly aftertouch, you can see how fun it can be, and how good it can sound on a keyboard made for it.

[@IanWaugh]

Sounds cool, thanks for your input 👍 I haven't tried the Hydra and I'm not sure I could master the intricacies of an Osmose 🤔

[@djkanyon]

It feels like ppl used "no polyphonic aftertouch" line just to bash the gear they don't like nowadays, see it everywhere!

[@IanWaugh]

Could be. It' a 'new thing' and some folks want to see it everywhere.

[@wavesequencer]

I would argue that poly after touch and MPE style per note bending can end up leaving you less in control. With channel after touch you get an average pressure that most people can more easily modulate/control. MPE and poly after touch are a great way to highlight mediocre keyboard skills 😊

[@IanWaugh]

A good argument. The more options you have, the more skill you need to control them 😊👍

[@qiqi2692]

It’s the opposite: I feel I have much much more control with Mpe and poly aftertouch : you need more skill and sensitivity to play on it , just like you need more skill and sensitivity to play or self express on a real piano or acoustic instrument . But I understand for some musicians it too much of a challenge , and they just want to press notes on the right place and time ….

[@wavesequencer]

@@qiqi2692 I was just playing 'devils advocate' here.. I would really like to get an Osmose, and feel I could probably get a lot out of it due to my background playing keyboard for so many years, but I think for sure it's not for everybody. Also just because you have an MPE controller, doesn't mean you have to make everything full of note glides, vibrato and constant note modulations... there's a balance to be had.

[@qiqi2692]

@@wavesequencerwell you certainly got my attention 😈

[@jaleneR]

Is Poly AT essential? Well, no, of course it isn't. But yes if performance and expression are important to the player, as well as for sound designers. Is it overhyped? No. Blasphemy, Ian! LOL. Poly AT does exactly what it says on the tin. Perhaps the reason for all the present hype is that it's now relatively affordable to get a poly AT keyboard or controller. Even your Beatstep Pro in the background there can do poly AT on its pads. Anyway, it's an excellent option. The hype is legit! ;) I will say, in my humble opinion, that at a minimum channel (or monophonic) aftertouch is absolutely vital on a synth or workstation keybed. When Korg first released the Nautilus workstation without an AT keybed I was absolutely baffled. I get keeping the costs and prices down, but really Korg? Really? They fixed that huge oversight with a newer model. And now Korg has an affordable MIDI 2.0 controller that has a poly AT keyboard made by ASM. Once you go poly AT...

[@IanWaugh]

Some people want it and some don't - it's up to each to make thir own decision. I'm not trying to influence anyone either way. Korg is run buy marketing bods...😞

[@jaleneR]

@@IanWaugh I know you aren't trying to influence anyone. But there's something special about poly AT, and I don't say that lightly. Most larger synth companies are run by sales and marketing. Most companies full stop are run by sales and marketing. It's the construct we live in and seemingly can't escape from. The problem, in my opinion, is that most of the people in sales and marketing aren't very good at their jobs and they don't understand their customers. Instead they're working solely to enrich their shareholders and their CEOs.

[@IanWaugh]

@@jaleneR Yes, such is the way of things nowadays. It weren't like that back in the day... 😢

[@WilliamAshleyOnline]

more stuff is good.

[@IanWaugh]

Often 😊

[@AlanCarriage]

YES its better to have . No Question no Brainer. .

[@IanWaugh]

OK. Thanks, Alan 👍

[@qiqi2692]

It’s not a hype , it’s becoming a revolution poly aftertouch and Mpe : I have been waiting and hoping for half my life for more expression power or try to express my feelings in an electronic keyboard . So I take this very seriously . It’s not a hype , it’s the future. I would never want to go back . If my osmose would Break or got stolen ; I would buy a new one immediately . Being sensitive is good for musicians : you should try it . By the way ,mocking Tim shoebridge says more about you than him : he is a wonderful musician . …

[@IanWaugh]

PAT id for you - that's fine. No idea how you got the impression I was mocking Tim Shoebridge - I love his channel - so please ecxplain

[@qiqi2692]

More and more software and hardware synths are adapting their sources to Mpe and poly aftertouch . I have been waiting eagerly for months. To osmose 2.0 software : so the pressure glide gets exported trough midi to other external synths .. this is TRULY. On another level of expression , not a hype . So maybe you should rediscover what self expression on a keyboard is or could be ..

[@IanWaugh]

I didn't say it was hype...

[@qiqi2692]

@@IanWaughyou literary said hype 3 times the first 35 seconds …

[@IanWaugh]

@@qiqi2692 I didn't say PAT was hype, I said I was going to cut through it and if you have actually watched the vvideo, including the first 35 seconds you'll have noticed I said I wasn't going to try to convince you one way or the other 😊

[@jumpingman8160]

PolyAT has always been desired. And its an old affair. CS-80? One of the most desired synths ever has it. Nowadays it's a lot cheaper to get it. So the question "is it needed" is as faux as when the plane was invented. Do you need a plane to go from US to Europe? Probably not. Do you want to travel by one? Yes you do.

[@IanWaugh]

More control is a good thing although I guess some folks would prefer to travel buy liner 😊

[@jumpingman8160]

@@IanWaugh you ask any musician what they'd like their instrument to be able to do (be it a keyboardist, a violinist, a drummer...), they will always say "more expression". That's the reason why instruments evolve over time. The Piano Forte is often regarded as a "perfect" instrument, but is all but perfect (big, heavy, goes out of tune, doesn't allow vibrato...) and outside the classical stage it has been evolving continuously, to the point of allowing the player access to other voices and tunings, as well as becoming lighter and more portable (look at Workstations. And some even give you Poly AT).

[@IanWaugh]

@@jumpingman8160 Yes, we all want more, but not everyone uses the 'more' they are given 😊 In my video about NI's S Series Mk iii many commenters said they had no interest in PAT.. Strange but true 😲

[@jumpingman8160]

@@IanWaugh because most synthesists nowadays are not keyboard players or even instrumentists of any order. They are used to VSTs and a cheap midi keyboard. Some don't even use midi keyboards at all because their DAWs offer the chordal function. Ask the ones who actually play real physical instruments and the response will be very different (then again, those will prefer real instruments to VSTs)

[@IanWaugh]

@@jumpingman8160 You could be right. The barrier to entry gor making music is almost zero 😊