Populism debate: Where next for the populist movement?

As populist movements continue to grow in Europe and beyond, what is motivating them and where is it all heading?
Political Editor Gary Gibbon is in conversation with Professor Matthew Goodwin, author of 'National Populism: The Revolt against Liberal Democracy' and Dr Daphne Halikiopoulou of Reading University.
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[@33Crazydude]

I believe the internet is one very big reason for the growth of populism in the western world. The internet has helped stoke the fire.

[@33Crazydude]

I assume you are the enlightened one

[@j94c]

It's not really a "debate" when all 3 people agree with each other...

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

One wants free range happy cows before stunned slaughter, one wants current small field cows & doesn't care how they're slaughtered & the last wants unnatural factory farming & unstunned ritual Halal/Kosher slaughter

[@joeandrew8702]

populism /ˈpɒpjʊlɪz(ə)m/Submit noun -support for the concerns of ordinary people. - the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people. Anyone using the term populism like it's a bad thing is surely an enemy of ordinary people?

[@TrevKen]

Exactly, and how are they meant to win an election without being popular? Doublespeak 2018

[@jamesgerardmccarthy2897]

I wouldn't rest the entire argument on the textbook definition, it doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the last 100+ years of history. Populism was the primary movement of the 1930s...that is the reason that people are concerned. Having said that... Populism in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, no more than a gun is, but the issue comes in the people who use the strategy of populism to their own needs. Hitler, Mussolini and Trump all used the emotion of the populace to gain power, the issue of course is that these were/are all self-centered con men who have no intent of helping the little guy. This is in contrast to the type of populism used by both Roosevelt presidents, in the U.S. primarily Teddy Roosevelt. These were also strong father figure anti-establishment figures who understood the woes of the common man and denounced corruption, but they were genuinely good. Think about it - both America and Germany experienced the Great Depression in the 30's, Germany faced hyper inflation and food shortages and America had almost 30% unemployment The result? America - Franklin D. Roosevelt states in his inaugural speech that there is nothing to fear but fear itself. He made clear that the American population would take ownership of their problems and they would overcome, which they did. Germany - Adolf Hitler asserts that the problems faced by Germans were simple, there was a single enemy (boogyman) called the Jewish race (substitute for the elites in the context of Lenin/Stalin, Mexicans/Muslims/Elites for Trump) and we know what followed... Lastly, Defining populism as the being concerned with the problems of the ordinary people is fine, so long as your able to also define which of us are ordinary enough to be accepted into this great new vision of the future (spoiler - there is no future vision for most populists, only destruction of the present). But what I'm not so sure about is - since I think populism could be both good or bad, am I an enemy of all these (new elite) ordinary people?

[@juanrayo3511]

Bill B you could make the argument that any political theory has been badly implemented throughout history. In this case I think giving ordinary people what they want would be guaranteeing them healthcare, access to education and affordable housing. Any politician running on those platforms would be a populist. The difference between that and someone like Trump is that he tells people what they want, he scapegoats and distracts, most of his policies negatively affect his own voters, for me that’s more demagoguery.

[@FroMarty]

They are trying to conflate right wing nationalistic populism with left wing popular ideas so they can tar everything that challenges establishment with the same brush. anything that isn’t oligarchy can be called this

[@rauminen4167]

@@jamesgerardmccarthy2897 I've no real stakes on this one point I want to raise with you (bit of a tangent too), but I'm not entirely sure it's wise to lump Trump in with the other two. Especially considering that Trump's point of view appears to be that of Roosevelt's - to me at least, but then again I don't watch leftist propaganda channels too much. (I find the ones that show full length speeches without interruption where possible) Also I like specific examples, so here we go. Looking in from the other side of the pond it would seem that you have real issues with illegal(!) immigration, drugs, terror attacks and political "elites" directly advocating for physical violence on video, facing no consequences (getting promoted to oversee financial institutions instead). Now the left-wing (and I'm not using the term liberal on purpose here) response to these issues appears to be - open borders - legalising drugs (not just weed, apparently... see Ocasio-Cortez) - no background checks - and endorsing the physical violence when it happens I don't see how these (maybe with the exception of the drugs policy, debatable) could help "ordinary people" in any way. It would seem, instead, that they are designed to help strengthen the power of people in a certain political party, by "importing" voters, and creating division in the general population, so a "public enemy" could be named and blamed - yes, you can guess who that is currently. Also, to say that Trump is the one that preys on people's emotions, when you have people on the other side of the political spectrum publicly breaking down to tears and screaming when they can't silence someone by calling them some "ist" or "phobe", seems a bit weird to me.

[@MerganNaidoo]

This lady is arguing for Authoritarianism.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

She's arguing for a Globalist Totalitarianism that is indifferent to the desires of the people who live under it but driven by the self serving desires of those who constructed & impose it.

[@GodsOwnPrototype]

Straight after Matt Goodson mentions the Establishment Indifference to Child Sexual Exploitation in working class Communities by non native groups she says 23:12 "You're assuming that what the people want, the people should get", thus exemplifying the dismissiveness he was referring to.

[@ParticleJesus]

The presenter absolutely 100% confirming Goodwin's thesis by immediately acting shocked over the possibility of not pushing social liberalism onto the peasantry en masse, hahaha.

[@ParticleJesus]

@Bill B The part about an overeducated oversocialised liberal progressive ruling class in journalism and politics who have a set of values that is rapidly diverging from the average point of view through various positive cultural feedback loops and echo chambers that they are still determined to promote at all costs.

[@ParticleJesus]

@Bill B Don't make the mistake of thinking that whatever people are educated into is by definition truthful or moral. People can be educated in Scientology or Islamic theology. A few centuries ago the most learned and educated men in all of Europe were highly devout Christian fanatics, because they controlled all the sources of learning and kept their opponents from institutional access. The exact same is true today, only the people in charge have an ideology that is only descended from Christianity and is no less irrational than it. It should come as no surprise that people want to impose or evangelise for "human rights" and "democracy" in the third world exactly like the missionaries of old.

[@rauminen4167]

@@ParticleJesus Umm, I didn't think I was religious, but I guess I'm a devout "human rightist" and "democratist". Also probably "authoritarianismophobe". Umm, also "liberalist", too. Well, what's that few compared to the dozens of different "ist" and "phobe" they've been calling me lately. That said I don't disagree on the feedback loops and echo chambers point. For one, it's human nature; and current higher education (in humanities especially, but it's spreading) seems to be exclusively dominated by leftist (post-modern, neo-marxist, socialist, and some cases communist) propaganda.

[@ParticleJesus]

@@rauminen4167 The reason that belief system has been so successful and virile is because it doesn't think it's a religion. Why does separation of church and state exist in the US? It's to keep religions from taking over government and forcibly converting everybody. Well, what is the obvious natural mutation/adaptation for a religion to make if it wants to bypass this rule and capture the US state? Nobody believes in separation of progressivism and state. Pretty convenient if you want to convert as many people as possible using the state as a vector. Almost as if that's what happened.

[@rauminen4167]

@@ParticleJesus Yeah, that is a way to look at this, although I'm not sure it has to be this complicated. Marxism (or neo-marxism, considering) is a clear political movement, with well defined ideology on it's own, there's no need to mix religion into this - for the sake of clarity. There was this ex-KGB guy who made a video (of his lecture) 30 years ago(!!) describing the step-by-step guide on how to destabilise and "convert" western democracies.... it's like reading current day news, you can recognise where, what stage in the process we're at... it's creepy. It really is. On a different subject I was just thinking about separation of church and state. If you look at the UK, it's not separated at all, but most of the population is secular / atheist. In contrast in the US the majority of people genuinely believe in angels... also there are all these fake religions made for tax evasion / money making purposes, with hundreds of thousands of members - which is practically unheard of in the UK. So... when it comes to "secularisation" of the population (amongst whom political leaders are ultimately selected) - I would say it did not work at all. (eg. religious people will be the ones elected, bc majority of voters are religious and it is important to them). Where in the UK the religiousness of a nominee matters very little for the average voter. Now I'm not saying I have any actual clue about WHY this is. Just found it weird and interesting.

[@heysupermanlook996]

26:21 "The Tories have moved further to the right." Wuuuuut??? In what way have the Tories demonstrated greater commitment to individual rights, individual freedoms, greater limits to the power of collectives to enforce tyrannies on individuals?

[@fintanstack2154]

Hey Superman Look Got a loicence for that opinion sir ?

[@LolLol-ch7sl]

Theresa May thinks Islam is peaceful, which just suggests she's as right winged as Marcon (yeap).

[@nil_db]

Long live populism

[@philc4661]

Three people not on the far right talking about the rise of the far right and how it can be countered. Where’s that diversity we keep hearing about? I would also argue that far right is far too loose a term and is quickly losing its control about how people perceive these parties. Most of these parties are simply ‘right’ with policies which range from far right to centralist. I totally agree with the point that there are genuine issues which only the right are addressing (terrorism, child grooming, etc) and it is giving them enormous pulling power. The left needs to stop fearing labels and talk about these problems or this will only get worse. Lastly, eastern european countries are ex-communist... they’ve seen first hand the delights of marxism politics and identity politics is just the latest form of equality of outcome. Historically right parties such as UK conservatives have embraced much of this identity politics and i would question where they can be considered to be right of centre still. The new right parties are clearly against identity politics and hence more popular in these countries.

[@petercrane2065]

Am I the only one who thinks these people LOVE the sound of their own voices?

[@commonsense5401]

Congratulations to Channel 4, an excellent debate devoid of the usual insult hurling and accusations of phobias. In these days of the hard left noplatforming most speech you have a chance to help solve the problems with more of this. I feel more positive about the future right now.

[@mutantdog.]

Remember when we had a referendum on electoral reform and nobody bothered to vote on it cos they were pissed at the Lib Dems? That fucked our chances of getting any kind of proportional democracy in this country for a long time to come.

[@avijitklodh]

I think the biggest problem is we all try to run right or left when most of us are actually centered. The center just isnt sexy or exciting. We are being manipulated by propoganda to basically belittle or demonize each other until we actually drive each other toward the extremes.

[@sacreligious74]

I love how populism is a bad word because liberals are losing popularity. Populism is democratic. The most popular party gets to lead a country. As an #WalkAway liberal, liberals refuse to look within why they are losing popularity. Actually, it's pretty funny. I am not anti immigration, I'm anti migration. When I discussed this with my liberal friends, I'm racist. I just laugh, if you say so. Hahaha

[@emm_arr]

"I am not anti immigration, I'm anti migration." That's just a little trick you play on yourself. I see you!

[@sacreligious74]

@@emm_arr you keep telling yourself they are the same. Lol

[@hcwcars1]

.Not far right just normal people that love their country. Arab and African people can never be Polish, just like Polish people can never be Japanese

[@samweisselberg8440]

there is a basic flaw on the guy on the right's argument. He basically says that one of the reasons y people reactionary is because they are reacting to the liberal elite imposing social liberalism yet that implies that they were previously socially conservative and hence it was not this 'imposition' that caused it. His argument may hold true synchronically but taking a historical perspective Daphne was the only one talking any sense

[@ParticleJesus]

They were reactionary but they were willing to tolerate the main parties and let them have their fun, until it all started getting too much and they revolted.

[@JacobMaccabee]

Channel 4 is not a news organization.

[@alanmoran8747]

uk says sorry for karl marx

[@MyKarur]

What must be done to make globalization more acceptable. This is where democracies have failed because drastic upheavals to people’s lives, when free movement of capital, goods and labor requires corrective action and this has not been forthcoming. Democracies have failed to redistribute wealth when multinationals have made huge profits. People must be retrained, new creative ways must be developed to make people feel secure and restore their sense of worth, new infrastructure projects to improve people’s lives like community centers, health care i.e improve quality of life. In short, the burden of adjustment to major upheaval to people’s lives through globalization must not be on the citizen but rather on the State. Some countries in Northern Europe, Canada and Asia have done better than the US and Central Europe.

[@ikm64]

Someone should explain the importance of the nation state to some of these liberal types. The two most dangerous words in any language are the words for "them" and "us", words that don't need an explanation by anyone. We are not all the same, and I've yet to see two men that are in any way equal don't mind any two groupings of people. Keeping people together in a grouping that allows them to see themselves as in some way the same, is a great achievement, the nation-state has achieved this, and has given us peace and an unprecedented ability to cooperate. Play with this at your peril.

[@samweisselberg8440]

The categories of them and us are ossified in the nation-state, where there are nation states there is no hope for ending this dichotomy

[@ikm64]

@@samweisselberg8440 Federations is a path to hope. To quote the motto of the greatest federation in modern history E pluribus unum Latin for "Out of many, one" ironic isn't it.............when you know the county of origin.

[@theyliveglasses4667]

Check out the Triggernometry Podcast episode with Professor Goodwin, fascinating stuff and useful for getting an understanding of all this madness.

[@macwilko]

Man on the right, spot on - factually based, cogent arguments. Women on the left, emotional, incoherent, insulting.

[@ruxiist]

They basically had the same points but disagreed on which took precedence. So how can one be emotional and the other fact based 😂

[@jamesgerardmccarthy2897]

I like these people! Calm, reasoned, intelligent discussion with a variety of views and what's more - realistic solutions

[@ChristianrnstrupRasmussen]

Economic insecurity leads to social insecurity which leads to political polarisation. French revolution, the november revolution the list goes on with financial crisis and various wars. In Denmark the Danish Folks party DF have had record beating poles in every election since the party was founded and won the majority vote in last election. This party defines populism. They tell the voters one thing and do the opposite when elected candidates place their votes in the parlement. DF said; We want more welfare DF excuse for voting against initiatives; It cost to much. It is not only claims it is true. In recent time immigrants in Europe is the hot topic, populism solved the middle east and Africa right? Populism has always existed, please read economic insecurity leads to social insecurity which leads to political polarisation again and think about it.

[@lizhang9898]

This is interesting experience. As a long time left of course I agree with Dr Halikiopoulou's point that inequality, be it relative deprivation or not, plays a big role in the rise of populism. However, I find it bizarre that she is trying to argue against what Prof. Goodwin has to say, i.e. political reform and rebuilding the trust between the electorate and the political establishment, though I would not call it a cultural explanation. In my view these two arguments can and should well complement each other. A leftist should be able to see, easily indeed, that a detached and corrupt establishment and media is critically important for the replication and proliferation of economic inequality.

[@MidnightRambler]

What? We have to listen to people without degrees?!?

[@hcwcars1]

.Open borders for France they love as many refugees migrants, and asylum seekers that they can get. The French taxpayers love helping everybody no matter where there from.... God bless all the French taxpayers

[@thecrusader6790]

Channel 4 is the ENEMY of the people!

[@emm_arr]

And you are pretending to be a Brit! Where are you really from? Just so everyone is clear, this poster pretends to be a Brit and pretends to be an American all the time. He's neither and English isn't his first language.

[@vasileiospetropoulos2046]

I like the Hellenic/Greek professor... The British professor was not able to make any logical assumption....

[@keharsinger3778]

Vasileios Petropoulos . I don’t think so.

[@juanrayo3511]

Great video! More please!

[@bigfan1041]

''I think reforms are always good'' This lady is incapable of critical thinking.

[@user-lw5oc1tt8k]

whats the populist movement?

[@heysupermanlook996]

IMO a populist movement is a movement that represents the interest of the greater proportion of the population. Contrast with an elitist movement which represents the interests of the elites.

[@user-lw5oc1tt8k]

thanks

[@funkydanieluk]

23:12 she makes an argument against democracy. Kind of worrying.

[@joermundgand]

Maybe Macron can use his new army to occupy those troublesome countries, is that your solution or maybe, just maybe people do not want to become "Europeans", maybe they want to live as sovereign citizens in a democracy instead of being governed by a technocracy.

[@sethuramanravi6305]

Good content on this topic. Finally.

[@lks6248]

The pendulum is swinging the other way. Get over it...

[@emm_arr]

You make poor choices. You get over it.

[@ddd-ly3rv]

You see it in what people believe should be natural relationships between people and what people consider unnatural relationships between people. Germans don't like paying for other people, and no one wants Germans telling them what to do. But yet a lot of gays have joined the right wing because of Islam, but religion is out dated. So they like gays and religion. Could be sort of we all eat off the same table relationship except for non German gays.

[@joermundgand]

What motivating them, that's easy, the people in that studio is motivating them, you're the anywhere people, for you this new World that is being created seems benign, to the somewhere people this new World is destroying everything they love.

[@mutantdog.]

Perhaps the left needs to adopt a more populist model too, just sayin.

[@MyMpc1]

This Matthew Goodwin dude is such a snooty insufferable Daily Mail reader hiding behind the fact that he's an academic. Mate, your views are no better than anyone else.

[@MyMpc1]

@Accelerationist I was triggered to write a reply, so ummm, yeah. Triggered. Seems you were too!

[@yinyangxperience5137]

"Do the people are the people,?? Bring your notes next time. Your barely making a point.

[@thecrusader6790]

God bless or Orban and Salvini

[@dancelittlesquire]

0:54 Gandalf meets two of his hobbit mates

[@MR.Mehran61]

This lady is brilliant.

[@TheSaltyAdmiral]

Beto 2020!

[@fintanstack2154]

Make Europe Great Again ..ie whiter

[@emm_arr]

"Make Europe Great Again ..ie whiter" "Waycism !!!!" The last thing you personally need is genetics-based politics. If you had yourself neutered, you could really contribute to raising IQs.

[@fintanstack2154]

M R Why is ethno nationalism ok for every other group but white europeans ? Change my mind

[@fintanstack2154]

Lets see who has the IQ for a debate.

[@emm_arr]

@@fintanstack2154 "M R Why is ethno nationalism ok for every other group but white europeans ?" Is it? I've no idea who told you that. "Change my mind" You change your mind.

[@fintanstack2154]

Native londoners know now how the Native Americans felt .Do you agree they deserved to be replaced too ? Or was whitey wrong for enforcing multiculturalism on Americas second wave natives who actually slaughtered viking arrivals .It cuts both ways .

[@fintanstack2154]

Waycism !!!!

[@kopend8638]

i like the ginger nut

[@dav220]

She's great and on point with her arguments

[@thecrusader6790]

TRUMP 2020