Porsche vs Singer: Is Porsche Coming for You Next?

[@Fatty420]

In an effort to prevent brand dilution their tactics end up diluting their brand. Bold move.

[@OutlawGarage]

It’s risky by Porsche that’s for sure

[@kevinbodman1011]

You would think Porsche would be happy that owners are restoring there cars spending money at Porsche classic.

[@OutlawGarage]

Totally, it seems crazy to me to go after small garages and individuals

[@popps33]

mmhm! with formalized licensing packages, Porsche could be making money than spending money

[@g5k830]

I get that builders like Singer are possibly taking away new car business from Porsche as price points are targeting the same market as their new car buyers. I wonder if this is the unspoken concern. It’s a pretty unique product development situation using someone else’s product as a donor to the creation of new IP. I wonder if Porsche should follow the lead of Nintendo, Atari etc and start making their old stuff again. You would have people lining up to buy an old 911 remade by Porsche today with new tech and techniques.

[@OutlawGarage]

If Porsche made an Aircooled 911 again the market would go nuts. Hopefully they could price it sensibly, but I doubt it. There was mention of development in some of the documentation I read, not the easiest to read with google translate though. Using Porsche’s product base for your own development is risky, especially if you advertise it as well.

[@g5k830]

@@OutlawGarage They should totally do it, it would reinvent the brand. So many of us into that wouldn’t buy what they make now. It seems so obvious and surely it’s easier than the complex cars built today. They can also see there’s a market.

[@OutlawGarage]

And they should be able to do it and still be compliant with emissions I would have thought, surely they can do that. We should be the first 2 on the list!

[@g5k830]

@@OutlawGarage my deposit is down (hydrogen combustion air cooled 🤔)

[@Peanutdenver]

I agree with you, for the most part and would like to know this much. Are Porsche buyers who are looking for ultra rare 911s, 918s and Carrera GTs sharing some cross market shopping with Singer? I know most of Singer's 911s start at $1 plus million(US) and go up from there. Now for those who are shopping for a 992 GT3 RS/Turbo S/911 ST could also be looking to add to their collection with a Singer DLS or their new 930 Singer Turbo for another 1-2 mill or maybe not. I currently own a 718 GT4 and love the look of what Rob has done to his "reimagined" 964 911s but I'm not considering buying one as their as much as a home and I'm not in a position to purchase, but maybe quite a few of Porsche collectors are???

[@aphromew4502]

I would understand brand dilution for reconstructed cars, like straight kit cars, but hopefully that doesn't apply to restorations

[@OutlawGarage]

I agree but women of these restomods in Europe seem to be attracting the attention of Porsche

[@981_pdk3]

Interesting video I guess the modifications depends on how easily it can be removed. If you order a track car and a non brand passenger seat is added then I guess it can be removed for sale and return it to like it left factory. Sometimes certain models get non branded exhausts as well. It’s all a bit crazy

[@OutlawGarage]

I though the conversation of a narrow body car to a wide body and Porsche being upset was very harsh

[@historychannel8457]

It might be time to look for another fav brand. Who love their customers back. Poor empathy. Great video. Great points. "Holding People Back from creativity..."

[@OutlawGarage]

Thanks It all seems very strange. We haven’t seen any of this in Australia but it’s just really concerning

[@keithbuxton5671]

I think that its the outlaw and restomod cars that have brought Porsche back into the limelight over the last 10 to 15 years. Without these companies there brand would be boring. If someone is prepared to pay loads of money for a Singer then Porsche is missing out. Why dont porsche build a restomod?

[@OutlawGarage]

It would be a great market for Porsche, but Porsche prices would mean only a very select few could afford it

[@brendankeenanFF]

Any word on whether they have reached out to Rod Emory? He’d be out of business if they were serious.

[@OutlawGarage]

Not sure, but his website does make a clear position about what he does. I suspect others haven't been as clear...

[@dra911]

Note the enormous disclaimer on the latest Singer videos. Surely they will not do "a Ferrari" and go after individuals. Modifications have been part of Porsche from the get go. Curious to know about some of these other stories now, especially since I love modifying my own car!

[@OutlawGarage]

It seems very strange but perhaps it’s due to EU rules being much stronger. Some very odd situations

[@dra911]

I'm in France, so I guess I'll see how I go. There are lot of shops working on old 911s and providing parts over here, so what's the line that we shouldn't cross? One assumes companies like RUF have some sort of agreement with Porsche then?

[@OutlawGarage]

@@dra911 RUF have an agreement in place. the line seems to be very blurred.

[@smtkelly]

If you building to order that's one thing. If you are saying you've done it better than Porsche (i.e. standing on their shoulders) and manufacturing to scale for sell then I wouldn't be surprised porsche is getting miffed. I like singer but I don't think I would buy one but can appreciated what they have done. Long term Maybe they aren't great for 911 enthusiasts. I think there will come a point where they will become cliche (only original once pomp and all that). While discussing 911sc value Singer came up in conversation with someone involved with one of the cars mentioned. I was saying how anything porsche can have cult spring up around it as the market pushes people to the next cheapest option. 911sc might be worth it in a few years even though they are cheap/plentiful now how when I was last in the market a 964 was considered runt of the 911's but its strong money now. They mentioned it's a direct result of singer buying every 964 they could find, killing supply and driving up used prices. In effect they have butchered the plentiful supply of 964's resulting in unmolested one's becoming rare and valued lol

[@OutlawGarage]

Very true and a great comment Perceptions of the 911SC could change very quickly and Singer has most definitely had an impact of 964 prices 📈

[@mattstanbridge]

I can't find any information on Porsche confiscating an ev converted 911. Surely this would show up somewhere. And if they don't own the car I find it hard to imagine that they are legally allowed to take someone else's property.

[@OutlawGarage]

You’re right but I did a search on a number of documents I received and couldn’t find any. I don’t know if this is a EU thing or what, but the documents are real so it’s very strange.

[@paulhawkins6415]

I have read a fair few comments and no one has said anything about right to repair. This looks like the beginning of it in the EU.

[@OutlawGarage]

Oh that’s a really good point to raise, in Australia the consumer is somewhat protected but companies are trying to find ways around it.

[@DoubleOSeven007]

To be fair, Singer only made 450 classics & they had Cosworth/Porsche built 4.0 boxer engines. Not a threat the brand at all.

[@OutlawGarage]

I really think it’s general brand protection by Porsche and I suspect the copyright laws are different in Europe

[@robbchastain3036]

The popularity of owners doing work to their own cars has been declining for decades. Porsche should be happy that many people are still enthused abput buying and souping up their sports cars for show or go at an SCCA race.

[@OutlawGarage]

Yes they should and I’d imagine Porsche have quite a healthy business selling classic parts

[@robbchastain3036]

@@OutlawGarage Imagine if Chevrolet had taken action against the low rider community for all their mods of classic Impalas? They did not, of course, and now those cars are icons among fans. And we all love Porsche, too, 911s and 917s and the one driven by James Dean. But not Mean Porsche. Life is too short to have them get mad about anyone's modified high-performance aerodynamic Beetle. 😀

[@OutlawGarage]

@@robbchastain3036 🤣👍

[@tonmanify]

The EU has some very strong competition laws & that may be why Porsche is going hard in Europe but not (sa far) anywhere else. Copyright can be messy too, in that if a brand doesn't defend itself from every alleged breach, then that counts against it in future cases. So Porsche might be at least partially painted into a corner by tough EU laws and needing to go after every little instance to protect itself in case any big instances come up in the future. Whatever the reason though, it's weird to be taking legal action against people for personalising their own cars.

[@OutlawGarage]

Yes the EU definitely have different,and it appears stronger rules. Going after individual garage about individual cars is wild

[@tonmanify]

@@OutlawGarage sure is - makes it really hard to understand Porsche's endgame.

[@DrJRaven]

Why does Porsche have the right to confiscate a car?

[@OutlawGarage]

I’m not sure and it was a real surprise. Converting a 911 to electric is no reason to confiscate it. However, there must be more to this so I need to do some more digging

[@Andrew-lu6wp]

Dont bring ruf into this , they are a manufacturer, they are basically like AMG . Good friends with Porsche .

[@OutlawGarage]

Agreed 👍

[@diegohorton869]

Vin # tells you if it’s real Porsche or not. Porsche is a Porsche no matter what. Modified or not. If it’s a remanufactured its boby is still a Porsche.

[@OutlawGarage]

But for example, when a shop has done so much “development” and work on the car, at what point does it potentially become something else?

[@diegohorton869]

@@OutlawGarage I think when the Porsche is made “factory” it’s an undoubtedly a Porsche. It goes to a private owner, “it’s a Porsche” it’s entire life is a Porsche. Don’t care what part is changes happens, modified or remanufactured, it’s a Porsche. You can’t sell it any other way, outlaws, Singers, Ruff. Porsche Lawyers not able to remove its name from these cars as I think they want to. It’s not a smart business decision overall but who’s going to stop this silly nonsense, as an enthusiast we should get petition to ask them to stop this, I would sign it. The old cars are ours to do as we please or a business that does the work. We are not restricted by anybody, no lawyer can say we can’t call it what it is.

[@kalisz01]

In the US, the issue will be trying to sell and profit off of a modified Porsche product. See Singer's issues. As a vehicle owner, and not a business, you can do anything you want with it. This is protected by US law. So I'm not really worried about it. Obviously, Porsche wants to control the product after they've taken money for it... and I guess in the EU, this is allowed. Sad and ridiculous.

[@OutlawGarage]

Definitely the law is different in the EU and that’s why Porsche are testing it. It’s just not a positive impact on the community

[@nextechsolutions5955]

Remanufactured, restored and restomoded classic Porsches have become so numerous and favored that they have begun to eat into new Porsche sales. Updated classics are better drivers cars than the new digital versions.

[@OutlawGarage]

Just strange that Porsche would take this approach, especially with small independents

[@TheDjcarlos67]

Don’t be silly

[@OutlawGarage]

Good point but some of the confidential information people provided me was very scary and concerning, but there are always 2 sides to a story

[@popps33]

Porsche should think about offering licensing deals. but, porsche is trying to sell their cars not have to compete with their own older cars restored/modded. Personally, The resotmod porsches are sooo much cooler. Destroying a car is insane! Crazy Germans.

[@OutlawGarage]

Crazy times we live in. Definitely at the high end, new Porsches are competing with these restomods so it makes for an interesting market situation. Like you said, new Porsches competing with old Porsches models, not something they would have predicted

[@RorySeanWainer]

This doesn't make sense ... can you site some examples with links? Sure, reproducing badges, etc is a breach of copyright but under what law does a "sold" product still belong to the manufacture?

[@OutlawGarage]

I don't have any links but I was sent, in confidence, legal papers issued by Porsche to a number of companies. I was also provided one final signed agreement. I also searched on the internet and really couldn't find anything but these were all cases in Europe so perhaps they are not readily available??

[@Georgebarber1]

I think it's unlikely but not outside the realms of possibility that our ac community could be hassled for altering our cars. Although most of us with these cars might well get a smack across the knuckles, you my friend are in deep shit with your garage. 😂

[@OutlawGarage]

I’m not answering the door to any random strangers 🤣

[@johnrb9397]

Porsche need to pívot their focus to China. Didn’t I see a Chinese made Taycan ‘homage’ the other day??

[@OutlawGarage]

Oh I’ve not seen that, I might have to do a google search 👍

[@DrJRaven]

Porsche is on the brink of killing the very reason why Porsche is so popular.

[@OutlawGarage]

It seems that way in Europe for sure, hopefully they realise the error of their ways

[@neiltitmus9744]

Gee they are becoming as bad as ferrari

[@OutlawGarage]

I just hope this doesn’t creep into the UK, US or Australia

[@neiltitmus9744]

It's not a problem for me but what are they loosing ? Why don't they get in on the act if it's lucrative?

[@OutlawGarage]

@@neiltitmus9744 I'd love Porsche to do that but not at their ridiculous price's

[@neiltitmus9744]

Most of it is just sorting out their engineering issues

[@dipling.pitzler7650]

It is very misleading to ramble 15 minutes about legal issues without showing the disputed cars and cases! It is one thing modifying a car and another heavily altering the style,then manufacturing and selling these in numbers as practically new products using the Porsche badge as a marketing tool. Any idiot would understand the difference!

[@OutlawGarage]

It was just not fair to the owners to share their documents in the video for legal reasons. The papers also had very clear photos of their cars and their details everywhere. It would have been very easy to trace. Hope you understand, not easy to share but a real issue for some individuals and small garages in Europe.

[@jquimbly7334]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Five minutes in and you haven't revealed anything of value.

[@OutlawGarage]

I had to be really careful with the information that was shared with me, I just couldn't share as much as I wanted.

[@1kontrabida]

NO offense but for more than 14 minutes nothing no proof was shown other than its all hush hush but their coming after u if u mod ur cars. It seems like something out of a corporate plant lol! next time post a little bit of proof so videos like this will have some credibility and not depending to be taken on face value or what this video was all about which is hearsay.

[@OutlawGarage]

It’s really hard to show the documents I’ve been sent in the video as they have specifics in them and also photos of the cars. I just can’t show this information as it’s too specific. It’s definitely not hearsay but it’s hard to show specifics without breaking the commitment I gave to the people that shared the information with me. Hope you understand.