Pose Method Running-Can You Really Run Without Pushing with Your Muscles Part 3 with Todd Martin MD

Pose Method Review Part 3. What is Pose Method Running. Pose Method Review. Learn how to run properly. How to run without knee pain. Can you really run without pushing off using your muscles? Can you fall forward and pull up your standing leg without pushing off? In part 3 I will review the phase of running where we go from the "fall" in pose method to pulling up the standing leg to swap it out for the other leg. In Pose Method, we are supposed to be able to do this simply by leaning forward with gravity and then pulling up the leg. Gravity will keep us moving forward. This might sound like nonsense to many people, but Pose method has been very popular in the past and had strong backers like Cross Fit and some branches of the US military.
This lesson will help you understand a part of running technique that is mysterious to most people. Understanding how we use our core to propel ourselves off the ground. It is not as simply as it may seem. How we use the core will determine how efficiently we do this and also will determine how we come down on our foot. Will we forefoot strike, midfoot strike, or heel strike. This lesson will help you improve your running technique.
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[@charlesbao1802]

Thank you for all your videos! You have the best explaination that I have found so far and showing and explaining it. Your demonstrations make it easier to actually feel what's going on and feel the propulsion going forward. Like you said , the movement is very subtle to actually see it.

[@ToddMartinMD]

My pleasure. I am glad you have enjoyed my explanation and demonstration.

[@lucagian9801]

excellent analysis. thanks.

[@ToddMartinMD]

Thanks, Luca

[@rondochu5339]

Perfect explanation !!

[@ToddMartinMD]

Thanks.

[@devohnmitchell]

Thanks for the Video 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@ToddMartinMD]

My pleasure.

[@kjlkathandjohn6061]

In the foot strike, my flexed knee and hip have tensed muscles in anticipation of the foot strike. Between foot strike and mass alignment, my various tendons are loading, and even more joint flexions are happening. Extension begins when my mass passes forward of my grounded foot. My grounded leg is a spoke on a wagon wheel, spring loaded and rapidly lengthening as the hub (hip joint) is farther ahead of the foot. When almost fully extended everything recoils to attend to catching the body weight gently with the other foot, then loading and spring unloading this leg, the other single spoke wheel whose hub is a hip on a rotating axle (pelvis).

[@ToddMartinMD]

What you are suggesting would imply that it would be very difficult to not jump back off the ground with all the spring loading if you wished to stop running. There is no amount of potential energy built up that would propel the body off the ground without active extension (pushing).

[@Villa21Thes]

I think Pose method suggests pulling your foot off the ground using your hamstrings, so it does using muscular force. By the way, i have to thank you for all your informative videos, watching most of them i started to walk again properly ( i think the last one with the belly button example, includes all your "theory" of core rotation and it's a must see), i was in orthotics for 2 years due to sesamoid injury! 👍

[@ToddMartinMD]

Thanks for your comment. I am glad you liked the belly button video. Regarding pose, they do indicate pulling up which does use the hamstrings, but no force against the ground to propel the body up. Without muscular force in the direction of the ground, the pull would result in instant collapse. It is also the wrong muscular focus. When the core is activated correctly, the leg pulls up automatically.

[@Leonidas-eu9bb]

Usain Bolt said once they did tons of core work in their training. make sense

[@ToddMartinMD]

Definitely does.

[@globe8949]

I think spending much time on criticizing PMOR is not fair because it had and still has its own value that in some situation it is more efficient by using pulling only rather than much of muscular force together. Definitely there is other factor than falling alone, otherwise stride length is determined by your height alone then you have to increase cadence to run faster (PMOR recommends 180 cadence btw). Also PMOR cannot explain the effect of Nike’s super shoes of these days (I think what super shoe does is almost the same one what our ankles do). However emphasing on forefoot landing and effective use of gravity in running is what we need to keep in mind when we improve running skills. I am not defending pose method entirely, but in conclusion knowing the method will be beneficial if you run reguarly in my opinion.

[@ToddMartinMD]

I disagree. The point is their “method” as they describe it is pure fiction as much as flat earth is. What they claim to do cannot be done and is not how running works. You are not falling to gain speed. You are forcibly pushing down with the glutes to gain speed and lift the body off the ground. The pull as they describe it would cause the body to collapse instantly.Increased cadence is not gained by leaning into gravity. It comes from altering the pattern of core movement.

[@globe8949]

@@ToddMartinMD I get your point, but that is too mocrospic analysis.

[@chilloutvibesforyou]

@@ToddMartinMD This ^^^^^

[@sportFitDotCom]

For those challenging Romanov’s physics and running model, I’d ask: where is your model, and what specific evidence do you have - as in a published scientific research papers, for instance - in support thereof? Nicolas Romanov, and Graham Fletcher have presented their findings in Runners do not push off the ground but fall forward via gravitational torque, Sports Biomechanics, October 2007. That carries weight. Theirs is not some personal voodoo, but bona fide scientifically-based conclusions. From the paper’s abstract: “Ground reaction force is not a motive force but operates according to Newton’s third law; therefore, the ground can only propel a runner forward in combination with muscular activity. However, leg and hip extensor muscles have consistently proven to be silent during leg extension (mid - terminal stance). Instead, high muscle-tendon forces at terminal stance suggest elastic recoil regains most of the center of mass’s height. Therefore, the only external motive force from mid - terminal stance is gravity via gravitational torque, which causes a horizontal displacement.” That is, push off, paw back, foot drag, and whatever Todd is describing - according to physical science - simply don’t happen. More from the paper: “Maximum quadriceps muscle activity occurs at the transition between knee flexion and extension coinciding with maximum vertical ground reaction force (branded, 1973; Nilssson and Thorstensson, 1985). After this, hip and knee extensor muscles activity begins to decrease and ends just as leg extension begins (Brandell, 1973; Mann and Hagy, 1980; Montgomery et al., 1994; Nilsson and Thorstensson, 1985; Paré, Stern, and Schwartz, 1981; Schwab, Moynes, Jobe, and Perry, 1983; Tank, Frick, and Schmidtbleicher, 1998). Therefore, as the leg is rapidly extending during the propulsive phase, the leg and hip extensor muscles are silent; this has become known as the “extensor paradox” (McClay, Lake, and Cavanagh, 1990).” That is, after mid-stance, the muscles aren’t doing anything to push the runner forward. “The runner’s body possesses minimum kinetic energy at maximum vertical ground reaction force, while the stretch-shortening cycle of the muscle-tendon unit contains maximum potential strain energy at this point. This potential strain energy results from gravity’s work during impact.” That is, it’s elastic recoil that lifts the center of mass upward. Continuing: “Ground reaction force is not a propulsive force as of itself, but operates according to Newton’s third law (Zatsiorsky, 2002). The ground reaction force experienced by the runner is equal and opposite to the force exerted by the runner on the ground. Muscle force is an active internal force and can displace one body part with respect to another, but it cannot displace the center of mass without an external force )I.e. ground reaction force; Zatsirosky, 2002). However, without the ground it is not possible to move using the muscle system alone. During the propulsive phase of running, as noted earlier, the muscle system is inactive (“extensor paradox”). Casting doubt that the ground and muscle system can propel the runner into the air.” “Ground reaction force increases as it resists body weight from impact to maximum ground reaction force and reduces after this point reflecting a rising body. The body is rising but the ground is not pushing the runner upwards (Zatsiorsky, 2002). Presently, conventional running theory postulates applying increased ground reaction force to increase acceleration of the center of mass (Hay and Reid, 1988; Munro, Miller, and Fuglevand, 1987; Weyand et al., 2000). Furthermore, increased running speed is directly associated with greater force application to the ground enabling the runner/sprinter to drive themselves forward (Hay and Reid, 1988; Weyand et al., 2000). Hunter and colleagues (Hunter, Marshall, and McNair, 2005), however, found tjhat it was not advantageous to have a large vertical impulse during the acceleration phase of a sprint. In fact, their fastest runners only produced relatively moderate vertical impulses. Moreover, as running speed increases, the decay rate during the propulsive phase from maximum ground reaction force until terminal stance increases (Miller, 1990). Hunter et al. (2005) found vertical impulse not to be advantageous, because maximal vertical ground reaction force occurs at mid-stance while the body is at its lowest position with the center of mass poised to move almost vertically upwards. A large vertically directed impulse cannot produce a horizontal displacement, which requires a horizontal force. The increased ground reaction force in sprinters may simply reflect their increased acceleration from their bodies at impact. However, sprinters also exhibit the “extensor paradox”, suggesting that they are also not using the ground to accelerate themsleves (Mann and Hay, 1980; Novacheck, 1998).” There’s more, but you’re probably getting the idea … The scientific method doesn’t seek to prove, rather it seeks to find what cannot be disproved. Scientists disagree all the time. Scientific consensus is pretty much an oxymoron. There is always an argument - and that’s good. But disagreement and skepticism do not disprove anything, nor do they prove some other model. if you’re going to challenge someone’s model it would make sense to have your own model constructed on a solid foundation of research, deep understanding of said research, and its underpinnings and implications, and to present it in a form and format such as a professional journal. (Yes, “science” is political, and biased, but the method is objective.) I don’t comment often, but Todd included a video clip from @posetv, so I felt slightly more compelled - I’m the guy in the video clip.

[@ToddMartinMD]

I believe I explained the mechanics in the video. If not, I may have in this one. Midfoot Strike vs Heel Strike Running Technique with Todd Martin MD kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZXXiGyhbrdli7c I believe the extensor paradox is that there is no active quad extension right after maximal knee flexion. I agree with that. It is active hip extension. The knee extends passively as a result of the full core movement, which involves the abs and the hip. This initial motion is the equivalent of throwing a cross in kick boxing. The power comes from hip extension, not knee extension. The knee of the rear leg actually remains flexed. In Tai Chi, this is the energy of PUSH. When sprinting like Usain Bolt, this energy is applied while still in the air, pushing the leg down in conjunction with specific rotation of the abdominal core. After contact with the ground, the impulse off the ground is triggered by waist rotation. In Tai Chi, this is the energy called Ward Off. What he call a fall is the Push. The hip extends, the lower abs turn back towards the ground, also applying energy. The upper abs turn i. the opposite direction. This is a Push. Like the cross, it does not involve knee extension. The harder you push and faster you rotate, the faster you “fall.” Without extending the hip, you will not lean forward with an erect spine. Leaving the ground is a matter of turning the upper waist quickly toward the standing leg. This is when the knee will actively extend and the ankle will actively plantar flex. The power of rheumatoid arthritis upper waist, lower waist, hip, knee, and ankle all pushing off the ground is what propels the body into the air. It is a motion that lasts just an instant. The standard analysis of these movements ignores the power of the waist rotation, which is what produces the horizontal movement.

[@ToddMartinMD]

Results: During running, all gluteal segments presented peak amplitude during the stance phase and anterior GMin presented additional second peak amplitude during the swing phase. All gluteal segments evaluated demonstrated consistently higher amplitudes during the stance and swing phases of running compared to walking. The mean amplitude assessed using surface EMG was 32-87% higher compared to fine wire during both phases for running and walking.

[@sportFitDotCom]

@@ToddMartinMD Muscles maximally active at mid-stance; go silent some 20ms after, including: "The gluteus maximus [which] also extends the hip, although its activity is in late swing and the first third of stance (Mann and Hagy, 1980; Montgomery et al., 1994; Nilsson and Thorstensson, 1985), showing that this muscle is also inactive during the propulsive phase of stance." The biomechanics of running are different than walking - at mid-stance: minimum height of GCM in running, maximum height in walking. The loading of muscles (tendons, and fascia) from contact to mid-stance in running is not in question.

[@sportFitDotCom]

@@ToddMartinMD I think a review of the Romanov / Fletcher paper would help your case. Or not, since I've heard nothing that refutes. What's more, Pose Method can be taught quickly, easily, and can take an awkward heel-striker and have them running like Michael Johnson or Usain Bolt within an hour. That, because it's a well thought out conceptual model with a specific methodology that works explicitly with the physics we know. Insofar as punching, kicking, throwing, leverages, that too is about repositioning the GCM. It's not a muscular application of force.

[@ToddMartinMD]

@sportFitDotCom I think it is only a good methodology if it is true. What repositions GCM other than muscles, with the exception of actual falling, which is collapse? The EMG results I posted from another study shows maximal glute force during the standing phase. That refutes Pose right there. He is proposing no glute force.

[@jeffreymcguire77]

Romanov's physics is suspect, but if you focus on good posture, letting your body weight center of mass lead (instead of throwing your foot forward), and pulling ("goddam!") your foot from the ground, then your body will take care of the rest without your conscious intervention.

[@ToddMartinMD]

I don't have any issues with whatever visualizations people want to try to improve their running form. I simply have an issue with false representations of what they are teaching that defy the laws of physics. Plus, I would argue that trying to pull your leg up isn't even a good visualization. Avoiding reaching the swing leg in front is a good visualization.

[@jeffreymcguire77]

@@ToddMartinMD The visualization is to pull your foot from the ground with the hamstring, not pull your leg.

[@ToddMartinMD]

@@jeffreymcguire77 Obviously, that is what I am referring to. The lower leg is attached to your foot, so the visualization is to pull it up, flexing the knee. When you really run, there is no active pull necessary in the hamstrings. That is a reflexive action that is unavoidable if you are using your core correctly. Trying to actively pull the foot up is unnecessary motion, so unnecessary thought. I suppose it could distract you from other wrong things to think about, but I can't think of another reason to perform an unnecessary motion. If you bring your flat of the foot down, the other foot will lift automatically.

[@jeffreymcguire77]

@@ToddMartinMD Yes, pulling the foot up is reflexive as you run, unless you enjoy face-planting. There are shufflers, who keep the feet low during recovery - that works pretty well for some people.

[@ToddMartinMD]

@jeffreymcguire77 Agreed.👍

[@dm9078]

This is more silly than the forefoot walking fantasy

[@ToddMartinMD]

So true. I wouldn’t even comment on these things but so many people believe this stuff.

[@bui340]

I like this. The rotation in the spine can also be achieved more easily by moving the hands "wrong" way so to say, resulting in a movement of the shoulder with a fast effortless way.

[@ToddMartinMD]

@@bui340 Whatever way makes it easiest to visualize, but all movement starts in the core and reflects outward, so that is how I explain it.

[@bui340]

@@ToddMartinMD Yeah, core movement is important and my wierd running style makes it easier for me. Thanks for good content and conversion!