Poseurs, Elitists, and Goth

[@CadaverKelly]

For anyone who was wondering, I did chug the wine after I finished talking 😆

[@kublewagen]

Your left arm muscles must be rock hard by now.

[@kublewagen]

BTW this is what I call good content, well done

[@CadaverKelly]

Luis Villarreal Thank you! 🙏

[@schechter01]

As an amateur winemaker, I would've been a bit disappointed if you had not. 🍷

[@Pdoja1990]

I was wondering when you going to take a sip or put the glass down 😂

[@itstiphaknee]

That intro made me smile, from the absurdity of mainstream media and also the lovely goth clubs/performances from goth bands.

[@itstiphaknee]

Your point about getting out of high school and finally being free to find your own circle and how maybe you prefer people who are dedicated to the music hits HOME.

[@CadaverKelly]

🖤🖤🖤

[@gsamsa]

Same.

[@puncherofbread]

Everybody gangster till the goth girl starts speaking class

[@hatedbymanylovedbyfew3567]

Sheesh 🙄 I guess not valid dress Mobster influence Goth lol 😂 Prayers didn’t invented “Cholo Goth “ it was there the 90s I was one of them they just made it mainstream to the masses.

[@somekindofdude1130]

please change your name to BUGthesda Official

[@janettejones3925]

Everyone at my college in mid to late 90s was goth!!

[@hypnos4350]

What i really hate about the "elitist" goths is that they're always complaining about baby bats only listening to new bands and "not appreciating the good old stuff" but i just think it's pretty normal i mean it's 2020 and don't get me wrong i love the old bands but it's only normal for baby bats to be more familiar to younger bands, i mean u can always point them on the right direction about the roots on goth music and that's it!

[@CadaverKelly]

Plus, the newer bands keep shows and music festivals alive! 😊

[@KaiDecadence]

Is that really a thing? I notice that a lot of Baby Bats tend to listen to the old classics and don't really venture out to the newer stuff all that much. Like on my videos I tend to play a mix of things but when it comes to the newer Goth music, I get a good few people who look quite young thank me for exposing them to some new music like in my latest video haha. Either way new Goth music is just as important because like Kelly said, it's keeping the scene alive.

[@CrypticJasmine]

Yes exactly and this happens with all genres. It’s even happening with hip hop where old hip hop heads are getting upset with young kids for not listening to the old stuff and “knowing their roots” it’s an interesting phenomenon. Why do the elders care so much if young people are listening to old bands/ artists as long as the bands they are listening to are actually new goth bands what’s the difference? It’s interesting.

[@Blackburn-Arts]

Are there any goth bands I could listen to too?

[@kirstymoss9810]

Excately! It's great to acknowledge your roots but in order for goth to continue on generally and to evolve with the tine it's natural that the baby bats have their own musical god's . Just sit back , enjoy their evolution and remember where it all started. Stop hating on baby bats because they don't dress like you , talk like you , listen exclusively to 80's goth subgenres , just appreciate their involvement and their modified take on what it means to be goth . Like any good parent of you want , our only role here would be to just hold open dialogue about musical roots and subgenres , not cling mercilessly to them as the be all and end all of goth. In doing so we close ourselves off to New music and new ways to express ourselves with our clothes and our style . Don't hate the baby bats , they're gonna be elder goths soon enough complaining about the same thing ... Just rejoice that goth lives on and is refuge and safe harbour for those that feel deeply, love passionately , express loudly and fly in the face of the norm. If we've raised the baby bats with love and respect the. We are goth

[@angxldust3328]

For me, listening to goth music is a must have for a goth. I don't understand why do some people think I'm an elitist just because of that

[@tokyothekidd]

most actual goths think that. big difference between goth and gothic. hate when people say they’re goth and only listen to everything BUT gothic rock.

[@SpookySammy]

Goth music is ok but not my go to music. I like different genres.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@tokyothekidd But even with "Gothic", that one gets misconstrued as well. Like to actually be considered "Gothic" (or the more proper term, "Dark Romanticist"), you have to have enjoyment/interest in Gothic Literature Gothic Architecture, and/or Gothic Art and far too often when you see people describing something as "Gothic", it's not really accurate since "Gothic" has certain criteria that needs to be met in order for it to be considered as such.

[@KaiDecadence]

@@SpookySammy And that's fine but if you just are finding that you don't like the music much then it just means you don't like Goth music aka just aren't a Goth and that's not a bad thing. You can still like dark things whether it's fashion, other kinds of music, makeup, etc and not be a Goth. Goth doesn't have a monopoly on those things, it's just a music-based subculture.

[@SpookySammy]

@@KaiDecadence I didn't say I didn't like Goth music, I do. I just like to other music genres too.

[@PoseurGoth]

Ironically, focusing on anything except the music has the potential to create a far more toxic form of elitism within goth. If it becomes about aesthetics, it will naturally follow that it will be up to personal interpretation, which can lead to dangerous infighting within the subculture. Focusing on fashion will result in classism, where those with wealth, and possibly a fortunate location to live in, would be able to accuse the people who are simply wearing band shirts, or even something that isn't directly related to the goth scene as we currently think of it (band shirts can even be hard to come by) could be labeled poseurs. Heck, even the fiction genres could make it difficult for younger people to get into the scene, since public libraries are unlikely to carry the 18th century novels that defined the genre. As it is, goth is open to anyone regardless of their personal aesthetics or taste in art (although we tend to have common tastes), people who dress anyway they want (although we certainly have styles that tend to be more popular among us and are a handy signifier), and people who like all sorts of literary and movie genres.

[@darkstar7084]

I just wanted to say that your comment about classism is a great observation.

[@zenman10000]

This was very validating as a baby bat who's still figuring my personal style out, but likes a lot of goth music.

[@hineraable]

But using music as the central part of being goth is arbitrary as well, like what makes goth music more worthy of being the staple of being a goth over gothic literature? What you are saying is that one can be goth without consuming gothic literature, even tho this subculture wouln't exist without said literature? So, under your logic, an architect who works as a designer in gothic cinema, loves to read and write gothic literature, and wears gothic fashion, is not a goth because they prefer mainstream music over Joy Division? Public libraries being unlikely to carry 18th century novels is irrelevant, like, i doubt that most mainstream music stores have Bauhaus vinyl in their stock. In my opinion, instead of trying to implement a "central requirement" for being goth, we should just create a "system" of different types of goths. Literature goths, Fashion Goths. Arquitecture geek goths, and goths who are a combination of all those types of Goth. Our modern understanding of Goth was formed out of multiple different mediums that coincide with the love for the obacure, saying that one of them deserves to take precedence over the others cannot be anyting but arbitrary.

[@madfox1803]

​@@hineraablecouldn't have said it better

[@asuko-san7440]

Im in an alternative Japanese fashion, and let me tell you, a fashion based subculture doesn’t make it toxic. Especially if you guys agree that everything you wear is diy - ed. By all means, I am not goth, and have no place to judge. I just wanted to remark that it doesn’t make it toxic.

[@ashleydelgadillo4798]

I love how she holds the glass to flex but never takes a drink XDXD She's like a goth newsreporter, I love her

[@SogoTX]

Don't want to smear that lovely lipstick... ;)

[@KennyLauderdale]

she said she did

[@Accumortis]

You’re really making some great content on this channel. This was so well-planned and edited. Honestly one of, if not the best, goth video I’ve seen this year! The channeling of the Contra Points-style, multi-character philosophy lecturing worked out so well for this. It’s been so refreshing to see videos that are actually about goth on KZbin.

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you so much! I appreciate your videos as well 🦇

[@aytakk]

That wine glass must have gotten heavy after a while. Great video!

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you! The wine glass got far lighter after I finished recording 😆

[@Nightsong93]

Wine?!! You mean she's not drinking from a chalice of bat's blood? Total poseur!! 🙄

[@xXMisch13fXx]

You forgot the term"Gatekeeper", that term gets thrown around a lot too.

[@AdrienneLaVey]

This was awesome! It was so entertaining! 🤣 I do agree that people really use “Elitist” out of context and as a knee-jerk response. There’s a huge difference between someone educating you and someone putting you down with their knowledge. Providing knowledge is to guide, not to insult. I’ve literally seen people online who claim, “goth is ONLY about music, and if you think it’s about ANYTHING ELSE you’re a poseur”, or “real goth music died in the 80’s.” Those are the real elitists. Overall, goths are protective of their community; that’s what has kept us alive and together all this time. I’d really like to see fewer goths that brand themselves “elders” gatekeeping and shaming newcomers (and even goths under 30 that have been a part of it for a while) just because they’re young. It’s so condescending. I guess it’s all about finding that fine balance between preserving goth and welcoming new people into it. 🖤

[@CadaverKelly]

I agree 100%! We should be protective of goth, but only to the extent that is required to keep it going strong. The name-calling is as absurd as my acting in this video. 😂 Thank you for watching! 🖤

[@AdrienneLaVey]

Cadaver Kelly I loved it! And I love your new set, too! I’ve even seen people say that reading gothic literature and acknowledging it as part of the subculture qualifies you as a poseur. What even? How many Peter Murphy blow-up dolls do these people have shoved up their asses?

[@CadaverKelly]

“Peter Murphy blow-up dolls” omg 😂😂😂

[@ObscuraUndead]

LigeiaResurrected 100% agree. Tho I see people claiming too that everyone is telling them that goth is only about the music but I’ve never actually witnessed anyone non sarcastically claiming that. It’s another knee jerk reaction people have because they’re afraid to be wrong, when we all start somewhere. And the “goth is dead” people? They’re not elitists so much as fucking lazy 😂 I’m also dead tired of people claiming elder status. That title is bestowed! And it’s not just people under 30 getting shit. It kiiiiinda feels like it’s goth’s “dirty millennials” XD

[@jessiemeowser]

LigeiaResurrected exactly

[@little-miss-horror6036]

Funny how this popped up while I was chatting with a friend of mine. She told me how sometimes she feels bad and gets frustrated when others call her a goth when she told me she doesn't really listen to the music. She said she always shrugged it off, but gets worried if she interacts with other goths, they would get disappointed that she doesn't know the music. She told me she still wants to give goth music a go since she felt like she just needs to explore it more. But honestly, it makes me glad she now understands what goth music actually is and is at least honest about not giving the music that much of a try before. I had told her that most baby bats get confused over goth music and how most darkly inclined people get called goth, so she doesn't have to feel alone. I'm still helping her out with finding a sound she enjoys and got her started with some Goth CDs that play tracks from different goth bands. I guess she's worried about coming off as a poser, but you know, we all start somewhere in the scene. I'm just glad she's not defensive over being corrected or throwing the elitist card. Anyways, this is a good video. I might have her look into this as well as your channel.

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you! You are very right that everyone starts somewhere. It’s nice to see beginners who want to explore and experienced goths who want to help 😊

[@skullgirdlerip3694]

This is the best video I've seen on these subject matter to date. I've shared it on all 3 of my FB pages so it can be seen.

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you so much! 😃

[@mysterjaythang]

Agreed! Best video. I like that it is succinct and to the point.

[@Livingdeadinnz]

Haha love your "alter egos". Goth music has such beautiful elements to it and hopefully never dies. Seems be quite a resurgence of it lately though which is so great to hear. Love your videos 🙏

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you! 🖤

[@greekvampy3690]

Music elietist do exist I'm small country towns

[@mkeith9649]

To add onto the elitism point, there is "elitism" (or maybe more gatekeeping) in term of the aesthetic. Lots of gatekeepers try to eliminate variations of goth (such as pastel goth and harajuku goth [often called mall goth when its more harajuku goth and mall goth is an insult] and other more taboo styles). While gatekeepers argue that there is no "goth beginnings" in things like pastel goth, it doesn't mean that pastel can't be used in the goth community. Like you said, it all boils down to if you follow the fundementals and I feel there's so many wonderful looks and styles of goth and if you follow the fundemnetals of the music and the culture, you are goth. Woukdnt it be hypocritical to make goth, a nonconforming group, a conformist one? TL;DR: i strongly belive you're goth if you follow the fundementals and identify as such and your fashion is at least loosely related to goth elements :3

[@themidnightlycan8116]

Jazmin bean looks like the queen of pastel goth! Maybe not? Idk what shes going for exactly but when i see her thats why i think

[@FreeStuff11TakeItBy12]

what does this mean?

[@hineraable]

Real question here. What makes pastel goth, goth? Becouse a goth wearing some pastels is not the same as literally having pastels as your entire aesthetic. Like it really just feels to me that everyone wants to be goth while not actually being ineterested in the aesthetics. I can see why harakuju goth is goth, but pastel? Like, most of the time is literally just regular makeup and clothes. I can see why Jazmin Bean's style, for example, could be considered goth, because it does embrace creepiness, but then why not just called it creepy pastel? Or at least gothic pastel?

[@teijaflink2226]

What I have been explained the main thing with goth is the music, maybe someone really loves goth music but doesn't really like black but more pastel, I would think that person would still be called goth even if I would guess most pastel goths are fashion goths.

[@theamvgirlx]

Classism is more prevalent in goth than elitism I would say. A fellow KZbinr on here (not naming names) blamed poor people for the goth scene dying cause they could only afford to go to one goth event a month! And was properly saying “it’s YOUR FAULT our clubs are getting shut down etc etc” like once a month is a LUXURY to me because the net cost of a goth evening where I am including travel is over £100! And that’s doing it as CHEAPLY as possible. And when when we made this point - she branded it as “excuses”. Like....? You don’t see the metal community acting like this because we are all mature and understand that adult life gets in the way. Since social media and KZbin, I’ve noticed goth has a lot of growing up to do if they wanna survive. They can’t keep this “all or nothing” mentality. Like in order to be a “true goth”, it has to be our whole lives! We gotta learn to set boundaries even with a subculture or it will collapse

[@CadaverKelly]

Well put! 🖤

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

People fail to realize that poverty is complicated,and that its not always a choice. I feel like some people become self centered when they have too much money or privileged. I cant count the amount of times Ive been thinking: 'Dude, you live safe behind your computer and with a nice house. And you are pointing fingers when you dont know what the h'll you are even talking about'.

[@lydiaurban1123]

yeah...... so far i have able to go to only one goth party since i begun my journey into the goth subculture because im broke. (the party happened last august.) im sad i couldnt go to Prague gothic Treffen with my friends who helped me get into the community more. So for me going once a month would be a luxury as well. Have a nice day,whoever is taking time to read this

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

@@lydiaurban1123 Just remember you are not alone. I rarely travel outside of my home country, and when I do I never attend festivals. All goth events I attend are back home.

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

Ever tried coffee meetups? Im thinking this could be less expensive

[@InvictusAeterna]

I’m not a goth but I greatly appreciate goth music and culture... I have a feeling it’s something that won’t die, as “darklings” will always resonate with the music and ideas.

[@patandcri4242]

Agreed

[@stormapparition]

my autism is living because of the specificity and in-detail descriptions thank you!

[@zetovidillard]

Righhttt?? My neurodivergent ass is living

[@Ratsoftheswamp]

I can tell you watch contrapoints and I love it. This video was wonderful! Your videos are always so good thank you so much for being on this platform.

[@cartoonygothica]

I have started listening to bands like Joy Division and Bauhaus in recent years, but I don't listen to them all the time. What I listen to depends on what I feel like at the moment. I don't know if that makes me not a goth, but I'm up for recommendations from experienced goths.

[@thedragonsunicorn]

to be goth, you don't have to EXCLUSIVELY listen to goth rock, you can listen to other genres as long as you hold a love for and listen to goth music.

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

@@thedragonsunicornSeriously, there are bands like Chvrches that do a song with Robert Smith and I am sure people think it’s is not goth but it is very close.

[@freeandunexplained3011]

This was such a great video! You really feel a lot more livlier than some of your other videos and it was a lot of fun to watch!

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you! This was a fun one to make 😊

[@evahanson4090]

46 year old goth here. I don't know how old you are but you are clearly a goth much wiser than your years. I'm also a Virgo, and appreciate your illustrious vocabulary. Nice work!

[@LibrariansWife]

This is the best video I have seen in a long time, discussing the issues of Goth culture and the definitions of such. You’re a gem Cadaver Kelly 🖤

[@Something_Found-]

Great video! Lmao at the Bauhaus elitism omg!! Some people love to find ANYTHING to set them apart from others, even within a subculture. 🙄

[@norseczar27]

What’s wrong with that? I’m a freak snd goths and others make fun of me. I then tell some goths they are fake and wash their makeup or paint off when they go to sleep. I however cannot shrink my head to normal size and my scars and deformities cannot be removed. Some than walk away.

[@kalezuki9231]

Washing make up off doesn't magically make them not Goth any more. Seriously?! You really think one has to have make up on 24 / 7 in order to be Goth? What a sad narrow view and definition you must have than if that's your idea of what Goth is / means. I have rarely worn make up. So according to you then I must not be Goth , right? 🙄

[@CrypticJasmine]

Very well put together. You have actually made me reconsider my stance in this as I tend to lean more towards goth subculture is filled with elitists who just want to feel significant but you are right they probably just don’t want their scene to die and get buried. Sadly the media is mostly to blame for that. Even with the internet at our disposal the average person will look at anyone dressed in a dark or gothic fashion and think they are a goth. In the age of hashtags and searches it makes sense why people would use that word. I don’t really think there is a right or wrong, just a complex situation with many sides.

[@leahmontgo]

You are the Goth Contrapoints and I Staaaaaaahn Seriously though, that you for the intelligent discourse and consideration of how goth intersects with class and race struggles.

[@justgween7573]

I once comically heard that elitists are just hipsters in disguise. But the more I think about it as I'm watching this, the more true that statement becomes 😂

[@sukidakara4326]

you look so elegant!! the fact that you wore those earrings with gauges and that necklace made me reconsider the beliefs i had before and you actually inspired me to buy more feminine and elegant clothes, because in the end, i'm the only one restricting myself from doing, wearing and being what i enjoy. i always thought i wasn't classy enough, would look bad in petty clothes and that normal jewelry wouldn't suit me. especially as a girl on the heavier side i'm self conscious of what i wear and how i present myself, so i hide my body under a 2XL oversize hoodie, hoping to trick people into thinking i look good. i always look more tomboyish than feminine. the way you dressed and presented yourself made me hopeful and think that i could pull it off. thank you very much! you look absolutely gorgeous btw

[@CadaverKelly]

This comment warms my cold, dead heart! 🖤 Thank you for taking the time to write it. When you’re being true to yourself, your genuine energy will make any outfit look good. 😊

[@ademcanvaner2567]

I love your videos! They are nothing but high quality and filled with facts! I agree: When we say one is not goth because they don't listen to goth, we are saying "an ace is an ace, and a spade is a spade", not "stripes with stripes, and spots with spots". There is a fine line there. Goth is not a free-for-all. Meaning, it's a subculture that is based around the music, not around lipstick and bloody corsets. In fact, this is how I explain it now: A person doesn't have to be goth to look extreme, and a person doesn't have to look extreme to be goth! Let's look at a lot of post-punk bands in particular, many of them look very minimal. They're STILL goth. Whereas when you look at the 2000s stuff, they may look "extreme", but that doesn't make them goth because they don't play goth. It's really not that hard to understand. Take me for an example: yes, I do like your style, but it's not the reason I feel connected to you. I feel connected to you because we like the same genre of music. We even like some of the same bands (Paralysed Age, Virgin Prunes [whom I am still exploring], Lebanon Hanover, She Past Away, Bauhaus, and the list can go on). And when you go to a goth night or concert, you see some people who look very "extreme", and you find those who look minimal. But, we are all bonded over one thing: the music that brought us all together on that specific night. So, if this mindset is considered "elitist" at this point, then I'd rather proudly reclaim it but not bastardise my subculture for the sake of poseurs who want to taylor it to their personal satisfaction. One cunt attacked one of my comments on another goth channel saying that she would like to caution what I said because some people are deaf... Her point is that if they can't hear the music, why can't they just be seen as goths for merely participating in the fashion. I gave it to her ever so bluntly because I have experience with deaf people. I said to her, deaf people sign music (not only lyrics). I've seen this demonstrated in front of my sails in the past, and I am sure that there are videos of deaf people signing music in American Sign Language here on KZbin. It's been done with rap, classical music, pop, and several other genres. So, I said to her that if they are able to sign the latest rap songs and the latest Lady Gaga songs, are you really telling me that they can't sign "Lovesong" by The Cure? Come on... Also, they can still research the history of the genre. They can still be affected by the lyrics the same way that we, of the hearing, do. Disability doesn't equal privilege, is what I said verbatim. When I was growing up in the 2000s, I never heard of "darkly-inclined", to be quite honest. We described people like that as "alternative". They would have tatoos, piercings, coloured hair, and things like that but their music taste wouldn't be anything underground. You know, bands like Rob Zombie, Cradle of Filth, maybe some emo bands, and things like that. Also, they never adhered to one label. They would say "I am not goth" if someone accidently called them that. Honestly, I respect such people. The people I find so bloody ironic are those who are desperate to be labeled "goth" but have no interest in the music, not even in Siouxsie Sioux or The Cure! "Ironic" is even an understatement. It's so paradoxical that it's blinding. "I am a model because I have a small body and I am into fashion"... That's not what a model is. A model MODELS something for someone, and it's not always clothes. It can be hair, or anything. Thank you for speaking the truth, Kelly. There are so many things that I (and many people) want to say about this issue, and your voice is speaking for us. Don't let anyone discourage you because they have an inaccurate view on this matter. You are right, and they are WRONG. Cheers!

[@darkstar7084]

When I got interested in goth in 1999 the first thing I did was find online setlists and start investigating the music. It was harder then, especially for the import stuff (yay Napster), but I put in that work because I had a genuine interest interest in the subculture. I don't understand why anyone would want to claim the identity of goth when they had no interest in the actual culture.

[@greekvampy3690]

I got into goth in 1998

[@LittleMissDeath]

Goth music will always have a huge place in my life and my heart. As will blues and bluegrass. Honestly, I love them all equally. The above statement caused a very angry eldergoth to hemorrhage and lose his shit with me at a bar. He was a miserable person, so I said I'd pray for him. With that, the hemorrhage turned into a full on explosive brain tumor with a side of massive coronary.

[@CadaverKelly]

I love the blues as well! 😊

[@LittleMissDeath]

@@CadaverKelly Also, hello fellow Kelly! :D

[@anjelicam3047]

I haven’t been fortunate enough to meet many other goths in my day to day life which sucks because people often get confused and call me emo or an e-girl. This is even weirder considering I take most of my fashion inspiration from 80s goth fashion. I’m also a fan of the music but my appreciation of other genres like metal and punk has seemed to make the goths I have met call me the same things. I’m not sure what to do about that but I loved this video and it definitely has made me feel more secure in being a goth for myself.

[@vampiradeathrockerbatxq762]

I knew I wasn't an elitist for saying some people weren't goth for saying some rappers an k pop artist an emo-core bands are goth I mean I like metal an industrial music along with darkwave an deathrock music so I'm not saying that people can't like other music but at least like goth music, like what you said

[@Eibarwoman]

Rappers can't be goth, they aren't rock, punk, new wave, or metal... the music that is associated with goths or at least appeals to goths beyond the goth genre.

[@vampiradeathrockerbatxq762]

@@Eibarwoman right although i LOVE Mindless Self Indulgence. I hate when these girls an guys think they're goth from this girl called goth baby or baby goth (I can't remember) I found that out because I think babies with goth styled clothes are cute. An this person called lil pip I got into an argument with someone so I told them that he's also not goth.

[@vampiradeathrockerbatxq762]

@@Eibarwoman when I said some meant someone I have no idea who they're talking about that they is goth

[@Eibarwoman]

@@vampiradeathrockerbatxq762 One is free to listen to non goth music and still be goth, but nobody should ever claim Lil Peep as goth

[@smalltowngoth9591]

Every point you made was solid, and that intro was beautiful!

[@migi3976]

I really like your anaology, I am not into 80’s music like at all, and I’ve noticed that there are plenty of people in goth and alternative subcultures today that listen to more modern stuff.

[@Monokitsune]

As a musician, I find I’m pretty open to most genres. I can appreciate the goth genres. I think dark ambient and dark wave are the most enjoyable so far.

[@LordDagger]

Amazing video! Had a good laugh 🤣 I've actually had to leave a goth group on FB a while ago because one of the moderators on there argued with me saying that post-punk wasn't a genre of music. 🤷‍♂️

[@SomeplaceScary]

Great video! It always kills me when people say that at least liking SOME Goth music at bare minimum is elitist, especially when music is so wildly accessable now. You wouldn't say you're a metalhead, and then say u don't like any metal at all, I wonder why that's different with Goth. And I appreciate that you brought up racism/classism/ableism, which are all bigger exclusionary issues in the subculture imo than being interested in Goth music is.

[@KingdomHeartsBrawler]

I'm happy I found this video. There was a video talking about the history of the subculture, but it primarily focused on architecture and literature while leaving the music as a footnote. Said person in the video definitely looked the part but claimed to not like Goth music. I left a comment trying to correct the record in a respectful but still matter-of-fact nature, but I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm about to get flooded with hate comments and the like. Yes, Goth has many components but music is the core of the subculture. Without the music, the subculture dies. It'd be like claiming to be a metalhead without liking metal or claiming to be a Nintendo fan without liking Nintendo games/media.

[@shiftlessdeviant4532]

question, i got bullied a lot on discord so now im asking other goths for advice, am i not goth if i don't really watch horror movies and i don't like gore?

[@KingdomHeartsBrawler]

@@shiftlessdeviant4532 First off, the fact that you got bullied on Discord is no bueno. Seriously, that freaking sucks and I feel bad for you. No one should be made to feel inadequate like that and those bullies are serious losers for doing that to you. Anyway, Goth is primarily music-based, so that's really the main takeaway. As long as you like or appreciate the music on some level, then you're a Goth (and Goth isn't just Gothic rock. There's also dark wave, cold wave, ethereal wave, deathrock, and certain crossover kinds of synthpop, EBM, and industrial). There's also no exclusivity clause, either. I listen to Goth music; I also listen to metal, classical music, techno, trance, jazz, film and video game soundtracks, Danny Elfman, and "Weird Al" Yankovic. Goth has gained many different facets over the years but the music is the core of it all. Think of the subculture as a hand. The extra facets are the fingers but the music is the palm. You can still have a hand without a couple of fingers but without the palm, there is no hand.

[@shiftlessdeviant4532]

@@KingdomHeartsBrawler thanks for this! i appreciate your efforts in explaining this, I already knew these facts but it just got to me, thanks again

[@KaiDecadence]

@@shiftlessdeviant4532 What...? Whoever is telling you that is being ridiculous. Goth is a MUSIC-BASED scene, not a movie-based scene. If you're into goth music but not into horror movies, you are still a goth because you like goth music. Meanwhile a person who likes horror movies but doesn't like goth music would not be a goth. I have a question about this discord group. Do they actually talk about goth music there (whether discussions or sharing the music) or no? Because if not, it sounds like you're in a darkly-inclined group masquerading as goth when it actually isn't.

[@colummalec8043]

Definitely enjoyed your thoughtfulness and contextualization, use of the Webster and academic lang, and silliness comedy. Classy move too, holding, not drinking the vino. You're very well-spoken.😎 🍷

[@Saeuglingsfledermaus]

Kelly is embracing her inner Contrapoints. :D I love it!

[@CadaverKelly]

ContraPoints is A+ content 👌🏻

[@Saeuglingsfledermaus]

Very true. :) And now us Goths have a CP of our own! :D I really hope the Babybat becomes a recurring character.

[@nethrec]

Exactly what I thought, haha. I ❤ Natalie Wynn!

[@morgoth_bauglir]

@@Saeuglingsfledermaus hello there fellow sandman fan!

[@qwertus_thing7038]

Can I still be goth and listen to Kung Fu fighting on a daily biases is that okay?

[@CadaverKelly]

Yes! In fact, I would recommend it.

[@victoriahadley7138]

Yes!

[@darkbaphomette]

This was great the part with the fan had me in tears 😂

[@deshuvodeep]

I have been watching your videos for the last few days and would like to thank you for spreading all these positive messages about the Goth community. I would suggest you make a video on how to deal with name-calling and bullying, which usually the younger generation faces in school and colleges. I believe that the goths who live in places where the Goth subculture is not known that much are at a considerably higher risk of harassment. They often get wrongly labeled as depressed, suicidal, troubled, or harmful even when, in reality, they probably are happy, empathetic, and creative individuals. The simple answer might be to turn a deaf ear to all these judgmental people. However, some significant issues come with social isolation in schools and at workplaces as a result of all these wrong assumptions.

[@begoodvgoode]

this is such a great video! the dramatic fan open cracked me up

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

Works for steampunks too.

[@alienaf8151]

This video is so perfect. I feel like now it's kind of a big annoying problem of people dressing in more gothic fashion and then labelling themselves as goth without realising that there's no point claiming to be in a subculture that you have barely anything in common with

[@blackheavyblans]

"darklings" 🥰 I'm starting to use that.

[@fruitandveggies24]

Excellent video! It’s so funny to watch people online throw around “elitist” and having no clue what it actually means. Words (like subcultures) have no meaning if they aren’t defined.

[@devlishanjel13]

Elitist is just a fancy term for a snobby bully.

[@Bliss_Hop]

Not a goth myself, if anything I classify more as a metal head or punk, but these videos are intriguing. Goth has always seemed like a simple yet complicated culture but none the less interesting. Keep up the good work!

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you so much! 😊

[@Mina-fl6us]

That intro is to die for!

[@kirstymoss9810]

All arguments can stop , ok really, that was the most well thought out , highly intelligent , well researched band balanced, eloquent clip that I've ever seen on you tube. I applaud you Madame cadaver.

[@Pdoja1990]

I think your portrayal of the poser/elitist mentality is very well spoken. Also I think that this applies to many other types of cultures/subcultures.

[@tanjagoodwine5598]

You're videos are so amazing!

[@PeachyPosaune]

It makes me so so happy that you brought up donating to National Association for Music Education. Thanks for supporting our students! 🖤 a goth music educator

[@itskitty808]

All makes sense and valid. Also, can I call myself goth if I listen to reggae music sometimes? I love me some The Cure (huge fan) and Sisters of Mercy, but sometimes I like to listen to reggae.

[@the_cutter8485]

I think u can call urself goth if u listen to any goth music. Np with listening to other genres

[@stevenpastor1391]

Hi. Just subscribed. As a fellow Goth, I think your channel is awesome.

[@nickl.eakins3250]

I like the attitude of respect here. Indeed, it's quite acceptable for any subculture to allow individuals to participate as much or as little as they feel comfortable with provided those individuals who come and go respect the core values of that subculture. For instance, I would quite enjoy myself dressed in black attire yet I would probably never consider makeup. I have long gray hair which I think would work quite well with the outfit I have in mind. I believe extremely dark sunglasses and a stylish black hat would work for me. While I have very eclectic tastes in music, I have a pretty good idea what sounds and artists would be appropriate in Gothic clubs, parties, surroundings and gatherings. One must respect the sensitivities of whatever group of people you choose to be with at any given time. I would not presume to bring my Grateful Dead or Janis Joplin records to a Goth gathering. My point is some of us should be allowed to refrain from diving in head first as long as we don't pollute the water.

[@Applepoisoneer]

This was a fantastic video. It was the first one I've seen on your channel, and was a nice contrast to a video that I'd stumbled upon earlier this week. I'm looking forward to seeing more of your work.

[@saylremi]

You are an absolute gem 💚 Quickly becoming one of my favorite people to watch on KZbin. Once again, great job!! You rock!

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you so much! 🦇

[@frostazaththyrn1367]

Just subscribed too you're channel Kelly and i loved "Who would of thought Goth was dramatic" very nice yes i agree our subculture is dying because people don't want too know the music only the fashion and aesthetics aspect of Goth.

[@mrfry3]

In the 80s we called posers "mall goths" or whatever simply because they dressed ok but did not know a single band or go to any goth clubs in my area. My being 15 at the time. Now at 51 I still club at the one goth club left in my city I accept all and just glad new people are are still interested (I attempt it anyway with shot knees from clubbing for 30+ years)

[@KaiDecadence]

I feel like if a newcomer to goth is trying to make an effort to really get into it by listening to the music, that's enough. Butnif they're just calling themselves "goth" just because they wear black clothing and are obsessed with Halloween then yeah, that is the definition of being a poser. Not them wearing black or the halloween stuff but thinking that being into those things is what make them goth which it doesn't.

[@SinnersavedbyGrace1]

Goth actually originated from Catholicism. So technically, every type of Goth is not right or wrong. Real Goth started with The Church through poetry, Church Architecture and Monestaries, elegance and Beauty and Solemnity in the Mass. The Faith was common on the Middle and Victorian "dark" ages. Only have people recently turned it into a secular aesthetic through fashion and music. So the "rules" Goth and the Gatekeepers are pretty silly. They don't seem to know where the true origin came from. Now, since Goth Culture has changed a bit since then, the labels and "What makes a real Goth" is silly. People have the choice to dress how they want and listen to what they want. Honestly, the "Aesthetic" labels and "rules" are really tiresome. It's great to have the option to do what you want without being in a box.

[@nethrec]

A well articulated, rational deconstruction of two polarizing perspectives. Refreshing to see, thanks!

[@thunderider1]

as a boomer....i remember when there was no goth it was called "alternative" ;)

[@teardropsouffle]

I’m 51- I’d say in the US, even in the early 80’s there were goths and it was a separate subculture from alternative. The goths listened to Siouxsie, the Cure and Bauhaus and dressed in specific dark, theatrical ways.

[@arsphoenix1822]

but Goth was a music term before alternative was.

[@teardropsouffle]

@@arsphoenix1822 I think the question would not if goth is a music term but when did the goth music subculture arise…

[@arsphoenix1822]

​@@teardropsouffle I was replying to Bassbastard and in tacit agreement with you. The Goth subculture is older than the "alternative" subculture (unless "alternative" is really meant as "bohemian" or "underground"/"independent" here). I have to put alternative in quotes there because it is a huge umbrella term for a number of subcultures, some of which have nothing to do with one another (punk, hardcore, indie rock, shoegaze, grunge) rather than a subculture of its own, per se--at least until its homogenization and commercialization in the late-80s/early-90s, when the term alternative becomes a known quantity (but even then, one would typically pledge membership to one of these specific scenes not "alternative" as a whole). Funny tangent: I remember being laughed at in high school for trying to explain to some classmates that NIN is industrial while another person was yelling, "No, it's alternative!"

[@Helicondrummer]

From this metal head elitist, you can just replace the word goth with metal and x band for y band and this is no different from the metal community. As metal music historian our cultures have a lot of overlap. I've had to dig into goth music quite a bit when tracing back influences for gothic metal and sometimes non gothic metal.

[@Letheanscheme]

its kinda sad... i was so afraid of being called a poseur as i was a teen, even though i had found on my own and gotten into/listened to (in the 90s) puppy, manufacture, cure, depeche mode, nails, dead can dance, die warzau etc... and had always been into morbid and macabre literature and things since a child... that i never embraced goth or the society and fashion until my late 20s. which i truly and finally fell in ove with and vastly expanded my goth music library to rival that of any goth dj. i truly believe music is the heart of goth.

[@-_Donna_-]

Im in love 😍 my goth teacher learned so much from you beautiful creature😍

[@GothicTeaVea]

There's also Goth sub-genres. My gothic life consisted of starting at the tender age of 13 13 to 14 Nu metal Goth 14-15 Cyber Goth/industrial Goth 15-17 Victorian Goth/Steampunk 17-22 Traditional Goth 22-Now 50 shades of black. Now, fifty shades of Black is basically when You have to mask yourself and integrate properly society because your career counts on it. Managing to balance both your personal life preferences and your professional career is just a part of it being an adult. Not all of us can dress the way we want everywhere in life It's a part of growing up.

[@lucycooke4185]

Yes what she / he said 🖤

[@sigmareviews]

Not sure if you'll see this because this is a 2 year old comment, but it may be of some help to go for a "posh" goth look if you work in a business setting. It's naturally how I dress most of the time anyhow, and doesn't stand out too drastically besides the jewelry and overall dark colors (with that in mind I have a pair of black steel toes I usually wear outside of work that fits the look imo).

[@andrewhains3508]

this was an incredibly detailed and thoughtful way of putting this! thanks for making such an eloquent video! (also- love your style!)

[@bubblezcandygorre1986]

I got called an elitist and gatekeeper for saying that e girls aren’t Goth! It’s irritating!

[@pumpkin3731]

This is precise and intelligent. Thank you Kelly I really enjoyed this talk.

[@404-f1m]

I really love your videos. I found your channel a few days ago and you've help me a lot. I realized I started liking goth 2 months ago, but I'm pretty scared of in fact being called a poseur for not knowing everything. I do want to learn and I'm genuinely interested on listening to more music and knowing about the history of the subculture. I'm still scared of calling myself a baby bat tho.

[@CadaverKelly]

Welcome! 😊🦇

[@stephanvenner2939]

Humor and information. Probably the best video about the Goth Scene I have seen until now. I never had time for elitists and posers. I like good music and I don't care about if it's Punk, Goth, or any other style of Underground Rock.

[@ianbat7092]

man when i entered the scene i looked like the poseur but 3 months in im lookin like the elitist but with a deathhawk 🤧

[@calebdeibert4952]

This is like a 90s ad for goths lol

[@maggiescarlet]

Loved this video, your characters were hilarious :) isn't it strange that there are so many "goths" that dress like the stereotype without listening to the music, but I don't hear about any "punks" with liberty spikes and crazy doc martens that don't know anything about punk music. Maybe it's just because society has a broader definition of goth, thinking it just means wearing black hahaha

[@Saeuglingsfledermaus]

I guess it's because people think 'Goth' is synonymous with 'Gothic', meaning everyone who likes Gothic literature/ art/cinema/ fashion must be automatically Goth.

[@andreamaldonado1780]

@@Saeuglingsfledermaus Actually It's the same, goth is just the contraction of the term gothic. If you look at the wiki pages (just for give you an example) the classic goth bands are considered "gothic rock". It is the same

[@Saeuglingsfledermaus]

@@andreamaldonado1780 I am aware of where the term comes from and that it is an abbreviation of 'Gothic' - I've been in the scene for more than a decade and have done my homework accordingly. The point is that, while 'Goth' of course derives from 'Gothic', in the anglophone scene, the shortened term 'Goth' was used to differentiate between the music scene and the Gothic (the tribe, the architecture, etc.), because not every Goth band uses Gothic themes and not every band that uses Gothic themes/ imagery is Goth. My friend made a great video about the term 'Gothic' and its development (it is in German though, but I can ask the creator for his sources): kzbin.info/www/bejne/qInNdpqmbJKojKs

[@andreamaldonado1780]

@@Saeuglingsfledermaus I think I'll check out your friend's video because I don't understand what's your point hahaha Didn't goth and gothic mean the same?

[@Saeuglingsfledermaus]

I've tried to explain it the best I could. But perhaps this should help as well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6O7aXuIn6qoo8U

[@isaiahrosales6229]

I'm definitely not gothic or goth but I like to wear mainly dark colors I also like anything considered macabre and anything with Halloween-like aesthetics demons,werewolfs,ghosts,zombies horror movies about the undead and stuff like that I genuinely love all this scary stuff and I was wondering am I considered a poser of the darkness or a sub type that is not a literal goth? I do like metal though old school thrash and death is where it's at for me most

[@christihiatt3459]

Wonderful extrapolation on so many valid points; thanks,, Kelly

[@MammaApa]

The main difference between people involved in the goth scene of the mid to late 90s (I guess this is considered the second wave) is that some of us sought out this sub culture because we WERE different and did not fit in - while some sought it out because they WANTED to be different. And it was hard to tell at the time and I really hadn't thought about it or cared back in the day, the scene here in Sweden was contrary to popular belief pretty welcoming, but looking back on it now, it is obvious who were the "poseurs". Because some of us never quit, while some changed their style, music taste and friends very quickly after the scene shrunk enough to make the clubs unprofitable and closed down in the mid 2000s.

[@DarqnessGacha]

me, a new punk/emo goth: *approached by a elitist*hey. the elitist: hey. how are you? me: i'm good, feeling a bit undead. you? the elitist: same. i've got a question. me: ask away. the elitist: what goth band is your fav? me: bauhaus and zombie girl, + christian death, emilie autumn, nox arcana, then comes silence, my fave emo band is ghost town. the elitist: name all the songs bauhaus and your fav goth artists made. me: *looks the elitist dead in the eye* uhmm.. i don't know the rest of the songs? i only know romeo's distress, house of 1,000 corpses, you're so creepy, dead is the new alive, bela lugosi is dead, fractured memories, strangers. the elitist: you like an emo band too? hah, poser. me: i'm not a poser, just multi-subgenral.

[@KreeZafi]

Looking through the comments, I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one noticing the similarities to Contrapoints in the production style ;)

[@leezahbat]

Well said and excellently presented. You have clearly and succinctly covered this subject, and I hope a lot of people have learned something from this, as I fell I did. I agree with all points expressed> I feel that if more of us goths would try to embrace and educate (politely and kindly, of course) any newbies, baby bats or otherwise interested individuals, it would serve the scene well and aid in it's growth. Lots of love.

[@suitablysinister483]

Brilliant video, love your two personas in this! I've really enjoyed watching. I found an explanation which has helped. It's like manga and anime vs western cartoons and comics. They are similar and not the same, both can be appreciated but you can't describe yourself as an anime fan, sit with anime fans and then call them elitists because they don't want to talk about batman or Spiderman etc. Sorry that was a ramble, hope it made a bit of sense.

[@CadaverKelly]

Suitably Sinister That does make sense! I think there’s probably a lot of special interest communities where this type of thing happens, unfortunately. Thank you for watching! 🙂

[@Taylor-kv9gj]

I really like your vibe and I'm happy this video got recommended to me :))

[@nickl.eakins3250]

Yes, after a year, I'm coming back to this. I understand the destructive dichotomy thing very well. As a former Civil War reenctor, the same destructive label thing tore the hobby apart. The hard core dudes who sewed their own uniforms, baked their own hardtack and slept on the ground with no tents were labeled as thread counters and ancestor worshippers. The most common epithet used was the hard cores were Mudsills. On the other hand, the hard cores derided those who they considered totally inauthentic with the term Farb. After a few years, the hardcores had their own events which excluded everyone else. Then those on the other extreme began staging events where almost everything was acceptable. Of course, I'm much too old to participate in that scene now but the hobby has nearly died out. Between the extremist factions and the comic portrayals in public media, Civil War reenacting became a caricature of itself. It was a nice scene while it lasted. Of course, we all know what a Deadhead is. As for myself, I was more into the Jefferson Airplane but in terms of music, we all had a similar normie versus devotee thing. I used to travel to see the Jefferson Starship when Paul Kantner was still alive. We were quite happy when he'd resurrect the old Airplane tunes we devotees liked but these were songs popular with us and not so much with the old war horse songs the general public wanted to hear like Somebody to Love and White Rabbit. We had a few more esoteric songs played by the Jefferson Starship too but you'd hear an audible groan from us when someone requested a song from the Micky Thomas era, particularly We Built This City. Paul Kantner was glad to indulge his fans but he'd hand you your head on a plate for requesting that abomination of a song. The Deadhead too have the songs they know and love as contrasted to those most of the public are familiar with. It all comes down to a matter of balance. As for Goth music, there are those who like just a few songs but eschew the rest. There are those like myself who have only scratched the surface of the music and the subculture and wish to learn more. Then you have those of you who have been part of the subculture for some time. Yes, we have to agree on a minimal baseline for what is Goth but beyond that, those who know more should be raising beginners up instead of putting them down. We all need to start somewhere but we must agree that many casual listeners don't really want to start at all. The latter eventually remove themselves from the perimeter and don't usually need to be asked to leave by anyone. Let them pass through provided they do not impose themselves. Only then must they be dealt with.

[@katharinabaur6113]

I love this!! So well reserached and put together! Your videos are like a breath of fresh tomb air around here! PS: this is how we pour a glass of wine, yessss...

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you! 😊

[@alexorpen3382]

I love your necklace, Also you did a great video. Well done and keep it up :)

[@vampiradeathrockerbatxq762]

I love LOVE this video I've watched it like 3 times

[@richrichie7386]

I am so glad you did this.

[@Valenquill]

I actually had a conversation about this on Type O Negative. It went pretty well. Although I was told that it was played in Goth night clubs even though it was not considered Goth. That can lead to confusion. I was even told that Peter Steele added to the genre. I do feel like it's a controversial topic.

[@edgyintellect177]

Goth metal is rather considered part of metal, not goth.

[@Valenquill]

@@edgyintellect177 my question is why can't both coincide? I love Metal and Goth rock. Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, The Damned, 45 Grave, and I felt like Type O Negative took elements from Sisters and pumped it into overdrive.

[@edgyintellect177]

@@Valenquill I don't quite know either. That's just how it's usually classified.

[@Valenquill]

@@edgyintellect177 I understand.

[@FreeStuff11TakeItBy12]

I think its because its not Goth-Metal, but Metal-Gothic, if that makes sense. + Metal influences more than goth

[@LuxexNihilo]

Hi Kelly! I amazing content 🖤! I will be sharing your video when someone calls me elitist 😂

[@CadaverKelly]

Yes!! 😆

[@Nightsong93]

Excellent presentation! It's important to define your terms and many people seem to forget this when presenting an argument.

[@goose3246]

Really liked the background story of where the poser therm came from, super interesting ! With the rise of popularity of Goth subculture thanks to Tik Tok entering the community in 2024 is quite challenging even tho I have quite a good knowledge of the music. As myself a 28 year old baby bat music maniac that thrives more towards newer bands but still appreciate OG groups that I use to listen to as a kid, feels like the gatekeeping nowadays is super hardcore online. Kind of afraid to out in the world because of it 😂

[@mikalfatale]

I miss the late 80’s early 90’s

[@hatedbymanylovedbyfew3567]

Same stay spooky and stay safe hope is everything safe for your are .

[@devi-bookshelf]

kelly: who would have thought goth could be dramatic me: im not dramatic also me using an umbrella in the sun

[@WraithVoidwalker000]

I am from the older generation of goth, but I also appreciate the newer music. I have also walked the wild side into the Steampunk genre. It truly is a fascinating sub-genre. The music is also very rich in tone. If you haven given it a try, may I suggest The Cog is Dead or Steam Powered Giraffe. 😊

[@GothMusicLatinAmerica]

Great video, as always. I liked the characters.

[@itsthevillainerd1351]

I just discovered your channel and tell me: Why do you only have 2000 subscribers? Why are there no other channels that actually talk ABOUT the subculture or the music? Why is every other Goth Channel a Vlog-Channel where the host dresses in black, puts make-up on and just talks about her everyday live? I hope you get big soon and keep making videos. Also: The “No True Scotsman”-fallacy fits as well as the “Ad Hominem”

[@CadaverKelly]

Thank you so much! 😃

[@ObscuraUndead]

Such channels exist and we are multiplying! :)

[@itsthevillainerd1351]

@@ObscuraUndead Could you link some of them here?

[@ObscuraUndead]

Itsthe Villainerd Kelly’s unique in her tackling of issues from a formal debate standpoint, but here are a few off the top of my head Obscura Undead (we do weekly goth news and reviews 😁) kzbin.info/door/YpDKDYdNkpAPtzkjW1_6Ew Skullgirdle kzbin.info/door/Yue-qkikSQrfPcMLpjZrCQ A Goth In An Alcove kzbin.info/door/a7185b4jjv8bI4Q1unh8kw Accumortis kzbin.info/door/wnh_1dX6sWBkO5ZQyYR0Xg Sweeney Deville kzbin.info/door/eHjH40wuyDu2beTGfc86Ug Kelly has a great list up on her blog too: cadaverkelly.com/2019/01/31/goth-content-creators/ Plus her highlighted channels section is a treasure. Enjoy!

[@edwardsdistress5599]

There are other KZbinrs out there who are goth but they have such a big following that if they make it clear that goth is about listening to goth music, they'd lose them and they can't risk that.

[@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396]

Oh my goth…again…I am ALL THREE of the people you are portraying! It’s like an unholy trinity of my life! It’s like looking in a mirror…if I had a reflection! It is like the gothic Id, Ego and Superego all having a smash down. I am really adoring this video.

[@DarqnessGacha]

i'm still learning, so i might misconcept some music artists who made gothic rock or played gothic rock.