Post Office lies to their OWN barrister to get him to mislead judge; then tries to get judge removed

[@a_numbers_girl7025]

I am in the US. This is absolutely outrageous. We certainly have a lot of differences in our legal systems. My background is data analysis and financial audits. It perplexes me that all these people were prosecuted. The first thing to look at is the system and underlying data. This actually seems like malicious prosecution.

[@continental_drift]

Yes, the idea that sub-postmasters are suddenly crooks and no one questioned the software is amazing. The software is the first place I would have looked.

[@maureenstarr5744]

How could this happen in the 21st Century no fraud and then all of a sudden 700 people its just laughable

[@dontuno]

I think that's exactly what is was, and the PO simply kept digging a deeper hole, into which thankfully it would eventually fall.

[@andrewholdaway813]

Where senior judges are appointed purely on their political leaning?

[@simon22273Z]

Absolutely I wrote accounting s ware systems ...spec ?

[@gunner678]

'Not only must justice be done, it must be seen to be done'. This whole Post Office debarkle is a disgrace.

[@greenpedal370]

Don't hold you breath, There will be 1 or 2 half-hearted attempts at a prosecution which will result in a hung jury, the CPS will decide against a retrial and it will go away. Do you really think the police are interested in this. They won't even tackle a shop lifter, the complexities of this case are beyond their understanding.

[@LordOfLight]

"debacle"

[@nevillewright1998]

The big mistake was letting the complainant (Post Office) be the investigators and prosecutors. Evidence and disclosure were always going to be biased against the subpostmasters.

[@Drainy1986]

Private prosecutions are fine as long as it's individuals with accountability who are bringing it. The fact that court was misled by the prosecutors may not necessarily be their fault, with individuals punishing bad faith makes it much more reasonable

[@shetlandsheep3081]

Agree. No organisation with a vested interest in conviction should be involved in decisions on taking prosecutions to court. Whether that’s a Post Office or an RSPCA or whatever, it is a complete conflict of interest.

[@nexus1972]

Well in fact in these cases they were the 'victim', investigator and prosecutor. No conflict of interest there at all gov'nor'

[@heidimueller1039]

@@Drainy1986As a Canadian, what the hell is a “private” prosecution?

[@Drainy1986]

@@heidimueller1039 a prosecution brought by someone other than the CPS or the Police. In the UK you can do it but obviously still have to follow the Civil Procedure rules and the judge or magistrate still has oversight/ can throw out if lack of PC etc. they actually give 'the little guy' a way of trying to seek justice against someone who works for the state who may not be prosecuted otherwise

[@TwoBassed]

The people in charge of the post office knowingly went ahead with false and malicious prosecutions and they should all be held accountable in a court of law and imprisoned for their crimes!

[@pjcnet]

Surely there will be criminal charges now, if not then the the justice system would be a complete joke.

[@OH2023-cj9if]

They now provide the software for the justice system, so quite right!

[@jinno4594]

I have 4 words for you with regards to policing in the UK : "Non-Crime Hate Incidents". OK, policing is only an entry point into the justice system, but I really don't see that much difference with the USSR's justice system.

[@Atari-stfm]

No chance. Tony Blair is still walking the streets.

[@G-ra-ha-m]

The Justitia system is already a joke, false joinder to apply commercial and admiralty law to living people.

[@andydudley1775]

well it is

[@63sgjunior]

These people need to be held accountable for perjury at the very least. No way should they be practicing law.

[@supertuscans9512]

The key question is did the Barrister and the defences solicitor’s lie or were the lied to by their client? The Barrister would appear to have been deceived, hence his writing a letter to the judge, declaring that he’d inadvertently misled the Court. It is similarly possible that the Defence’s lawyers were similarly misled. In this case these legal professionals are not guilty of anything other than being deceived. I really look forward to further disclosure about the behaviour of the legal professionals in this case.

[@dh2032]

@@supertuscans9512 the lawyers will side step any that comes there way

[@pjcnet]

Their deliberate dishonesty lead to destroying lives and even suicide, their crime has the highest culpability and impact on innocent victims, imagine how the sub postmasters must have felt when they were sentenced, sent to prison and lost everything, no amount of compensation can heal what they've been through and you can't bring back the dead.

[@andydudley1775]

judge held for perjury that kind of dessent could find your self in a lot of trouble if said in court .you lucky to see the light of day ever again to question one.

[@paulwalton1222]

​@pjcnet very true. I heard the victims don't like it being called compensation because its their own money that was taken so reimbursement is what they want but yeah they should get a lot of compensation on top of that too.

[@SusannaSaunders]

The post office and Fujitsu bosses should be charged (for their many crimes) and thrown in jail. They need to be made an example of now!

[@Trevor_Austin]

I have been reading about this debacle in Private Eye since 2003. The whole thing stinks. I just wonder how long this debacle will go on for. I truly hope that every single person (not entity) who covered up, lied, invented, destroyed, tampered with or withheld evidence involved in this dreadful miscarriage of justice is properly dealt with. That also applies to counsel who are frustrating the claims of those going trying to claim compensation. They know what they are doing is dishonest and immoral, yet they are still participating in this charade. I wonder which chambers they are from (I can guess).

[@maureenstarr5744]

They should all be locked up but they won't this is UK

[@petergregory5286]

Please, if you can guess, let the rest of us know.

[@kennethsimmons2029]

Paradise Chambers have been compliant with embarrassed counsel as a witness but maybe a suspect is his proper title having doctored the bundles in person on Sept 7th 1998 when representing 2 post office investigators name of Hoole and Heppenstall in Sheffield. Luckily home sec Blunkett was local MP and I was able to inform him of colluding police officer Alan Smart, Dave threatened to sue me in 2006.

[@JustAlanJohn]

More money has been paid to lawyers than the Sub Postmaster how can that happen one massive gravy train.

[@waynegoldpig2220]

Because the inns of court are the most arcane and corrupt pieces of shit institutions in the City of London.

[@Bozebo]

Unfortunately that's just the reality because law takes so much care and attention and time and education, and there will (in practice) always be more demand than supply, that it is extremely expensive. Handling a network of post offices and their accounting shouldn't be that complex, though clearly it was for horizon and the post office themselves.

[@mostevil1082]

@@Bozebo I suspect it's more a consequence of self regulation. There are countless more taxing proffessions that cost much less per hour.

[@melvinbarfoot7969]

Greedy fat lawyers feasting on other people's tragedy

[@waynegazard5038]

I assume the you must register 3million before you can take us to court and final cost after winning did it for the viewers, similar case I was a witness in driver found not guilty saved his licence, not awarded costs, judge was no fool,the guy had paid for a barrister who flew into local airport for 2days costs must have been eye watering.

[@kamcg1049]

There will be a number of senior people at the Post Office (past and present) and partners who are having sleepless nights because they know prosecutions are coming their way. We the public and press need to keep an eye on the inquiry and prosecutions to see justice is severed. This is not one bad apple, this is a rotten orchard!

[@brianlopez8855]

When will the Solicitors Regulations Authority investigate all of its members who worked at and for the Post Office during this period ?

[@rosewhite---]

SRA doesn't dare tackle bent lawyers.

[@brianlopez8855]

@@rosewhite--- Their standard response is that unless the Member makes a habit of lying to a Court, they will take NO ACTION.

[@rosewhite---]

@@brianlopez8855 I've had experience of slummy solicitors!

[@rosewhite---]

@@JelMain Hope so but the entire establishment is pretty rotten.

[@jancaulfield3549]

Whoever did the investigation into this then wrote the script should receive a commendation. Actually shows what investigative journalism should look like

[@dougle03]

The ITV drama is the latest in a long line of storytelling and investigative journalism about this scandal... It's a shame it's taken a true fact drama to rouse up the public to shame politicians into action... It's this that needs to change. It should have been dealt with year and years ago when the first stories were coming to public and politicians attention. Ed Davies certainly knew what was going on when he was PO minister, he needs to own up and step down along with various other government ministers that sat on their hands and did nothing in both Labour and Conservative governments...

[@andym.6141]

It’s important that P.O. Executives are brought to book over this affair in order to deter executives in other organisations contemplating similar dubious behaviour.

[@simon22273Z]

Its Common... 😢 Go work for HMIR Customs & Excise 😅 Nobs... No obvious income to? Afford? Pay for assets worse case in sudden death 😢 and Probate filed but lots more in name than declared 😂😂😂and no HM Queen to loan, Gift 😅 £12m nudge nudge wink wink 😂..... Be a lot of that ex Bit coin... As they don't pop round your door to pay out in cash 😮 or do they😂? New legislation on payments ex air b&b, Etsy, etc etc 😮 now Jan

[@supertuscans9512]

Those involved at the Oost Office who were guilty of improper disclosure should be jailed, it really is that simple.

[@stetomlinson3146]

The ones responsible will most likely be long gone from the Post Office, and working elsewhere.

[@davidioanhedges]

@@stetomlinson3146 The CEO during the worst of it has gone, the CEO who replaced her and covered it up has gone The current one seems on the face of it to be cooperating with everyone, and is just as horrified

[@dougle03]

@@davidioanhedges All of them, and those at Fujitsu should be on trial, in fact anyone that had knowledge, and was in a position of power to do something but didn't, should also be on trial... It would be huge, but it's necessary to restore the public's faith in the criminal justice system. And all the costs should be put upon Fujitsu..

[@pollyester6639]

PO riddled with incompetence, bias, cruelty, malevolence, pomposity fuelled with a diet of spite. The justice system an ass.

[@anoyakashi8775]

These people need to serve in prison for a few years. They had spoilt people’s life.

[@nexus1972]

In many cases theyve had a direct impact on the ending of peoples lives. So sad.

[@neuralwarp]

On this scale? Prison for life.

[@pauliboo22]

What I don’t understand is why the uproar about the government stepping in to overturn the results of the judicial system because that goes against everything, yet the judicial system in this case wasn’t fair or impartial.

[@melodycybergal7605]

This is becoming similar to Watergate; the cover up is a greater crime than acknowledging your IT supplier has failed to meet contractual obligations despite the customer throwing desperate amounts of money at them

[@DepakoteMeister]

And similar to the Maddie McCann case for the exact same reason.

[@Sujowi]

Exactly…how hard is it to say: “sub postmasters have identified a flaw in the calculation system and we are working hard to fix the problem, we want to get it right.”. But then I’m a communications specialist who would have advised that on day one! Never lie! Chumps failed to think simple and instead dug a hole and headed through hard rock towards the magma!

[@nigelmcculloch3746]

Yes, it's called corruption, and they panicked, instead of being honest and realizing cover ups always get exposed eventually!

[@MissWeeLassie]

Never fails to amaze me just how brazen some folk can be - and to presume they'll not be caught out/pulled up for it, sheesh! I do enjoy listening to these wee chats you do Alan - more, more, more!

[@steveknight878]

Well, they often are not - that's part of the problem.

[@theclotshotdidit3115]

Exactly! Around 2012 pfizer was fined over 2 billion dollars in a CRIMINAL case for...... "Bribing doctor's and covering up adverse events" I wonder what they are doing now? Johnson and Johnson talcum powder with asbestos giving babies and mum cancer, just split off that department to take the losses and start making experimental injections 🤷🤦

[@JD-cw4qg]

Flipping heck it just gets worse and worse. They seem to be happily digging their own grave 🤦. Love your videos on this.

[@doug_vickers]

The can of worms is well and truely open now so I expect an awaful lot of people will be sweating at what is inevitably yet to come to light.

[@amandamcauley]

If all the people who were complicit in taking a wrecking ball to so many lives yet slept peacefully in their beds probably won't be sleeping so peacefully now.

[@jjab99]

Thank you so much for your videos, they really tell the truth and explain things in an easy to follow format. These people (Post Office Management) have done far worse than the crimes that they accused innocent people of, yet they get to walk away free with fat cat pensions and a clean record. Where is the justice? Please keep these videos coming, I have plenty of BP Meds!!

[@Daniel-deMerrivale]

Really interesting, thank you. Your analysis also seems to show how cavalier (or at the very least culpably lazy) those others with ‘oversight’ and certainly responsibly (government, cps et al) were in this and are now trying to wash their hands. They had access to what was going on also. People lost their lives, were jailed, divorced, bankrupted and lives ruined over this and that’s why the anger has gathered so much momentum.

[@andrewgilbertson5356]

Thank you. Not boring at all. Having these issues explained in a way I can understand is great. I’ve followed the “case” in Private Eye and via Radio 4 have not watched the TV show.

[@rockflowerful]

Thank you for bringing all this technical stuff up and clarifying what was actually going on here. As terrible as the lack of justice has been for the unfortunate victims, this is just the tip of a deep well of unease that I increasingly feel for the whole structure of governance. I am rather ancient now but it seems there are too many administrators, directors who have too much power. We saw it with NHS administration in that case of babies being murdered by a nurse. We see it in financial institutions.Recently even local authorities that go against the will the will of the people. It seems in general that administrators have total contempt for their workers, their clients and citizens in general. Yet when they make errors of judgment they are never accountable. They may resign with a nice sererance payment get a new appointment and that is it. Don’t even mention politicians, in my lifetime have they been held in such poor regard. Who do we vote for?? NB…..since this wonderful drama about the post office has really made people so angry……the politicians, the civil service can……..all of a sudden arrange meetings, focus committees you name it the following day!? Where are the academic lawyers and political science people? Does anything work any more.? Well thank goodness you are pointing out some facts for us, keep it up no matter how dry and dusty these facts are.

[@davidbull5757]

"Let the punishment fit the crime," let them try sleeping in a van for a year. Plus all the other traumas the subpostmasters had to undergo!

[@neuralwarp]

How can this end in anything less than life imprisonment for Perverting the Course of Justice, for every manager concerned, and every past and present director of Fujutsu and the Post Office?

[@highmyope-ps2by]

The ghastly Vennells woman was proposed as Bishop of London; Welby was backing her for that post. I wonder that, when she stood in the pulpit while all this was going on, the church roof did not fall in on her.

[@steveknight878]

Good job that she is very religious - otherwise she might have had no moral compass.

[@melodycybergal7605]

She came in halfway through this. Look at Crozier and her successors

[@BlueInk912]

Welby Vennells' Banks & Religion subtitled "we are only human" is the book i would like to read. XD

[@royhenderson9826]

Not surprising the church attendances are decreasing.

[@cliffordbuttle4529]

What else would Welby be invoiced in 😮😮😮😮

[@stephenbland7461]

What really boils my p#ss is that everyone is blaming ‘the post office’ when it’s the actual people who worked for the post office who need to be blamed. NAME ALL THOSE VILE SHAMELESS INDIVIDUALS WHO LIED AND DECEIVED. PUBLISH THEIR NAMES SO WE ALL KNOW WHO THEY ARE. PUBLISH THEIR NAMES SO THAT THEIR FAMILY, FRIENDS AND NEIGHBOURS KNOW WHO THEY ARE.

[@BobK5]

Fujitsu appears to have lied to the PO by continually assuring them that their Horizon system was working properly and was robust and secure. PO Chiefs then rolled out the management mantra to their staff ‘system is working properly, it is robust and secure’. Were the PO Chiefs lying when they assured their staff about the efficiency of the system? Well that all depends on when the PO Chiefs became enlightened on the possibility that the system was flawed. If they discovered that the system was flawed, with the obvious suggestion that their accounting standards could be skewed, and subsequently continued to chase down their staff, harassing and bullying them into handing over money that they most likely didn’t owe and then prosecuting them, if the PO knew that the system was unreliable then those senior PO including the Heads must go to prison for lengthy periods and return any bonus’s and lump sums. If they didn’t know until it was too late then the responsibility is fully with Fujitsu who caused every subsequent unsavoury turn of events by claiming their system was infallible.

[@someonesgranny5387]

From the judges statements re PO winesses- they knew!! I am happy to defer to the post masters :- 'people' for the Post Office - persued them, didn't try to find errors, told them they were the only one, took away livlihoods and destroyed lives. And these same people have compounded the situation with dishonesty and evasion in court.

[@janebuckland737]

Perfect thank you for this I am avidly following the IT Inquiry and Sir WYN Williams and this bit I I haven’t been able hear much on it. Thanks again, don’t worry about my blood pressure, I like the subject

[@Alec_Collins78]

Thanks Allan. I'd happily listen to you for much longer on this.

[@Alec_Collins78]

Alan, sorry.

[@coachhousechambers2047]

@@Alec_Collins78 No worries. I once got pulled over by the old bill and managed to spell my own middle name wrong. (I don't use it a lot)

[@szendrich]

I'm not British but I find this all very interesting. Many thanks for explaining.

[@Sotto_]

Likewise. These principles are relevant.

[@Rocwallaby]

It’s truly disgusting but unfortunately accountability flows downwards. We have a scandal in Australia called “robodebt” and like in this instance the likelihood of the decision makers suffering any consequences of note is very low. You do have to ask yourself how some people sleep at night.

[@pittarak1]

Our evangelical ex-PM Morrison who over saw this criminal scheme (Robodebt) escaped scot- free (no pun intended) and went on a very lucrative speaking tour when he left office. With knowledge of his past record (bush fire and PFAS management ), I expect he doesn't give a second thought to anyone who was affected by his government's policies and so sleeps very well?

[@simon22273Z]

Even if they do "the EGO and the id" .... They generate such bad guts, they get "leaky gut" and other poor health..often fat gut, pressure on heart, lungs, liver, kidneys etc, ..too much alcohol, maybe drugs, stress job and guilt Cortisol an adrenalin surges, little fitness little exercise, cholesterol, high BP ...not a good life 🧬

[@harrybruijs2614]

Very well because otherwise they wouldn't be on that management level. There are a great number of psychopaths in those positions.

[@isbestlizard]

Isn't a barrister who discovers his client has lied to him, required to discontinue the case due to 'professional embarassement'?

[@cliffordbuttle4529]

Only in the real world not here in cuckoo land 😮😮😮😮😮

[@ModernKnight]

Fascinating and also totally outrageous.

[@ridefast0]

Not involved, but my blood has been boiling since this all became known, and there is no sign of any improvement - anything less than massive compensation and real jail time for the conspirators will not be acceptable to the UK voters.

[@sleekitwan]

I am here because the ‘Black Belt Barrister’ pointed your channel out. In my Employment Tribunal - a real eye-opener as to the tactics of some professional Barristers - as I defended myself/represented myself, the Chairman (now it’s a Judge, they are called I believe), had a duty to give a degree of guidance here and there. Even before he did much I even noticed, the Barrister for the employer was coyly implying there was some bias creeping in. I think the Chairman had literally paused the Barrister for a moment, and explained a statement the barrister had just made… …and the penny dropped for me right then. The way some barristers/solicitors work, is to be as enormous a d!ck as possible, in the weaseliest schoolboy manner, because a win is a win, and right and wrong are just words. I had one solicitor early on, deliberately engage me in conversation as the Chairperson was just entering the Hearing Room…I ended up scolded because I had assumed I was conversing with a normal person…but the solicitor was game-playing like this all day long. However, they;d shown their true colours, and I didn’t get caught out much after that. I just considered it childish and immature, and expected this from then onward. It was like being back at school. They behaved a certain way in front of the Chair, and played on being ‘normal’ with you, but in fact it’s all adversarial, you cannot trust what they say in the slightest. Maybe that was just my employer’s taste in barristers, I don’t know. The biggest and worst game-playing was when assisting a friend in a Tribunal…I saw the barrister go past, just two minutes after the Chair walked into the building/floor. He beetled down there, unfortunately for him, he had to pass our door, which I cracked open and jammed my ear to the crack. He weaseled a private 40 minutes with the Chair/Judge, was the gist. He must have given them the talk about how ‘our boys’ (it was against the MOD) are giving their lives out there, and this awful administrator wants a huge payout for a bruised typewriting finger (it will have been like that). When we got into the Hearing - delayed because he’d had 40 private minutes first in which to put his case! - the Chair immediately went to declare racism and sexism as voided headings. Funny. How we laughed. (it was a black woman I was helping). The other side totally denied anything had been done wrong. They ‘laid siege’ to the woman, refusing even to pay monies undeniably earned and owed. IE pay/holiday. Then they made a final-hour offer of not much. But, that told me, they did not want their key witness - a Captain - to take the stand. So I refused to accept the terrible ‘offer’. We got the Captain on the stand, and he totally upended the drift and implied view of the employer to that point, to wit: nobody said nuffink about sacking the woman, and nobody made no stoopid jokes about it, and no three senior men had a damn good laugh about her being sacked, at her expense right in front of her. And so, the case was proven to have a sexist element, if not a racist one. 3 senior men in the barracks, taking the pi$$ out of a junior staff member. One of the three had amnesia apparently, couldn’t recall anything about that hour of note, in that office. Another had retired, but in a shirt statement sort of said that also. The Captain must have said he wouldn’t lie, which would have made the barrister uncomfortable I am sure. So if we appealed it, she’d likely have won. Most people in the UK couldn’t last three months without a paycheck, or they’d be broke. This woman, lasted a year to get to this stage. She wasn’t going to go another year for an Appeal, no matter what money might be at the end. The stress and anxiety was crippling. So, what’s happened with this employer, with even more power, and the huge imbalance in representation here, in this Post Office Horizon/Fujitsu case, does not surprise me in the slightest. They got the nastiest barrister/legal team possible, and they all worked on ‘plausible deniability’ for what little tricks they could pull between the employer and the barrister, and went to town on these hapless, poorly-backed individuals - normal people. What this says, is who was dumb enough, to let the legal aid system drop to where it is, and the Post Office, a commercial company, be left with the power to avoid involving a jury, the CPS, and the Police? The successive British Governments, is the answer. What a crock. Thank you for covering it. Good luck all. It’s Brexited Britain, don’t expect it to get better.

[@theclotshotdidit3115]

Great video, not surprised the judge said "oh well, never mind", has the same boss as the post office. 2 teir "justice" and cover ups are standard practice! "The courts are open, so is the Hilton hotel, would you like to discuss among yourselves" is an old quote from the barrister that taught me contract law. You only get justice if you can afford it and if it doesn't embarrass the government and friends!

[@tomhollandroberts1737]

Innocent people were jailed. The guilty people (Royal Mail) were given bonuses and Royal decorations. That sums up the British legal system for you.

[@Baka_Komuso]

Any barrister who believes their client without corroboration shouldn’t be.

[@CatholicSatan]

Meanwhile, PO managers were getting eye-watering bonuses whilst all this was going on. Should they not be made to pay back some of these (especially given the PO is now technically bankrupt)?

[@benhamilton5692]

Andrew Bridgen MP was the first to raise this matter 14 years ago. Excess Deaths is the new Post Office scandal magnified by a million.

[@simon22273Z]

Osh yes that long ago and some more decade?

[@gmo4250]

He wasn't the first, one of the first he says. MP Ed Davy behaved appallingly, but MPs Kevan Jones and James Arbuthnot stepped up and were very supportive.

[@GDC348]

The post office has no respect for their employees and even less for the law

[@somalilandrecognition5413]

Mr Robertshaw, please be assured that this detail is very far from boring, it in fact gets to the heart of the matter that being how did the Justice system fail the victims, because in my view they certainly did. So please please please do carry on and give us the benefit of your thoughts and what you have uncovered/discovered.

[@joerudnik9290]

That’s very bizarre. If a judge in the US needed a document from a third party, as an important component in a trial, they would simply subpoena the holder. Justice is more important than some third party’s ownership. Sounds like the judge was doing the Post Office’s bidding.

[@cloudsingh3147]

I am not bored by your videos on this topic. Not in the slightest. I look forward to others. Particularly the disclose and conduct issues. Lovely tea room too. Thank you, 😊

[@coachhousechambers2047]

It's a really nice space. I was initially heading to a rather scenic spot on the north coast where there's one of those engine houses right on the clifftops overlooking the sea. But it was so cold I decided to just divert to the cafe.

[@GreatArtExplained]

This is all so shocking - great video!

[@vatsmith8759]

I'd like to see you make a video clearly outlining the disclosure process (certainly the PO fraud squad would benefit from watching it!)

[@bk2764]

Very interesting as ever. It sounds like a story is also starting to develop on failings in the legal / court system that these miscarriages were allowed through on such a scale. Throw in the blood pressure raising points you make and the courts are not looking much better than the Post Office here. More on that would be vaguely interesting (to coin a phrase).

[@nobody-x7g]

Very well explained. The Post Office deliberately tried to fix it.They should go to prison.

[@JuliexSteadman]

Not boring. Fantastic that u bring these things to light and put them in language we can understand. Thank-you.

[@DavidRobinson-rj2sp]

Vennells and her Team should be charged with conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. There is already enough evidence for a successful prosecution and guilty verdict. Minimum 20-years without parole sounds about right.

[@occamraiser]

Really, you have seen the evidence have you? or are you just parroting the comments of others who make a living collecting youtube clicks?

[@andrewclimo5709]

Thank you so much for explaining this. It seems that the Post Office's management knows no depths of unacceptable conduct. The only thing one might say in favour of the PO's conduct is that they are at least equal opportunities offenders.

[@marksterling8286]

Thanks for sharing, I find it incredibly interesting, the technical nuances make it even more fascinating.

[@isbestlizard]

Why when the post office wins against a postmaster, do they get to claim fees against them, yet when the postmasters win against the post office, they get their fees taken out of the settlement?

[@stevieb6368]

Somewhere a prison cell is waiting!

[@Woodman-Spare-that-tree]

She’ll have died of old age before that happens.

[@AbzScotland]

Thanks for this, pretty much the only detail I know about this case.

[@noelward8047]

Everyone 'knew' that the was something very wrong going on in the Horizon problem. The establishment kept the lid on it for decades ... the truth will always out in the end. How many people, in different cases, have suffered due to similar tactics !?!

[@cp4512]

This is not corruption by an organisation, it is the individuals at the top making the decisions. They should be taken to court and dealt with, not a fine for the taxpayer owner organisation. Well paid exec Individuals need to be held to account and not allowed to walk free.

[@angelmessenger8240]

I suspect they've got away with things like this on the quiet for years, They're so cocky they think nobody will say anything.

[@AntonyBall-hm4jo]

So what can we assume will happen next: - All charges dismissed....and the government claiming justice is finally done...and hope the issue fades from the public eye. - PO senior management blame Fujitsu to deflect the issue. - The establishment to close ranks and delay any investigation into the PO management. - The government to stall/ignore any criticism of the handling of this despicable affair. We all know what should happen but, we'd be surprised if it did! The only winners from this are the usual suspects - barristers & solicitors.

[@julieholden7343]

We kep saying the Post Office which it is, but this is a case of people lying deliberately and sinking as low as they can all in an effort to prove they are on the side of right and not giving a stuff they are and have ruined people's live, so these people must and I m must go to prison, the sickening thing is they are still lying.

[@tednruth453]

How many Post Office management staff are complicit in this? Will Fujitsu be held accountable?

[@travelwell6049]

Thank you for explaining this. I saw that bit in the drama and didn’t really understand it. It seemed like so much had come out in the trial showing the post office were doing awful things and of course the judge would start forming a judgment against them.

[@Ps119]

Very interesting thanks. If justice is done then there will be a significant blip in the prison population

[@Rbourk252]

We are observing two reveals from this trial. The first is the mechanics of exactly how innocents are criminalised in courts. Something that should be learned. We are also seeing how employers will squirm to get their way. It’s a sickening sight to see. They have been given such a protected status for so long that this country has lost its way. These are the byproducts of a class of people who dictate while ruling with the pretence of being the guardians of democracy. That contradiction cannot continue forever.

[@tonieveritt7045]

This lot better go to prison

[@andypandy955]

Very very interesting I feel heads will roll for this misleading judges and the list goes on. But why the cover up there is something deeper going on here????

[@lorrainegunn4111]

I find this case to be "incredible", in every sense of the word; each episode is another "layer of the onion" exposed.

[@Bozebo]

There is so much to this. But honestly as a software developer, it's been extremely obvious for well over a decade where the fault lies and I haven't even inspected the code or hardware it's running on or anything. It would've had to be deliberately engineered to defraud postmasters then mislead courts in the future to have any plausibility that it could've gone this far with the software working correctly, which would've obviously been illegal itself. In a practical sense that means the post office's claim is that the software was working fine in its purpose to leave a forensic trail to mislead courts, eh. Could they not have literally run a horizon system in court, it would be immediately evident that it does not work with the facts clear for all to see.

[@Bozebo]

Wait, due to more revelations it now appears that's what they have done. "the software was working fine in its purpose to leave a forensic trail to mislead courts" it seems

[@jeremyashford2145]

It was not “The Post Office” that lied. It was employees of the PO acting to protect themselves. Are they vulnerable to perjury charges?

[@hildatrellis907]

Thank you for demystifying this very complicated case. It seems that the more one looks, the more chicanery manifests itself. It’s sickeningly corrupt and horrifying that people use the law in this way. I do wonder how many other large organisations have used this as a template………

[@judithpayne1145]

Thank you so much for this Al. Very interesting indeed. I subscribe to your channel, but haven't received any notifications of these videos on the PO. I heard abou this one from listening to BBB.

[@mr-biz]

The PO scandal and Grenfell Tower are both benchmarks by which we can measure the integrity of institutions and the degree that illustrious leadership may be held accountantable when harm occurs due to their intentional mismanagement.

[@Sotto_]

The *_appearance of bias or compromise_* is not to be underestimated. It is the standard benchmark for ethics and conduct.

[@gbear1005]

They need to jail all of the fujitzu, post office, and post office attorneys while they sort this out.

[@joffey1212]

They will pay up quickly in the hope the issue is dropped,its more important to track back on who did what ,and jail them

[@PhilMacVee]

Thanks Mr Robertshaw, I'm sorry few people turned up for your party. 😀. Seriously,though, this is stunning stuff.

[@dlbiggins]

I keep asking this, but I don't get an answer. How is the behaviour of the principals on the Post Office side not conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?

[@davidspear9790]

Because of archaic laws that haven't been reviewed in 300 years, they can take people straight to court without having to supply any evidence (apart from their say so) with complete impunity. Even police don't get a free pass to take anyone to court. The CPS makes a decision on the available evidence.

[@anonnemo2504]

What is the possibility that perjury may have been committed in this case?

[@melodymacken9788]

Fascinating conversation. Thankyou Sir.

[@geekhomeuk]

Would love you to go in to more detail on this and how the post office has been conducting itself etc, I really think it needs a legal explanation for people like the TV series did explaining what happened to them.

[@kesamek8537]

If I was trying to keep Post Office IT systems far from public view for some reason, then stalling litigation using all such tricks is what I would do too. The real question is why should is be so important to keep scrutiny away from Post Office IT systems? Why is it such a nest of worms? The answer is wiki SIGINT and understand the Post Office has been a public-facing intelligence agency operating outside of what we think of as 'government' for at least 300 years. You want to poke at those systems, you will receive what the postmasters did if you're lucky. Welcome to Britain.

[@stevel9914]

Postal system was always an intelligence gathering system for powers that be .... alwaus considered important to have the right people either heading up ... or have successfully infiltrated... all the way back to 16th century

[@DickFrancis-dt3tl]

Until the 1970s the Post Office was a government department and the Postmaster General was a cabinet minister, so clearly NOT outside of government. The Post Office that is involved in this scandal is only a tiny fraction of the original Post Office that was government department and has few of the powers or roles of that department. So no, I don't agree that this case has anything to do with signals intelligence.

[@stevel9914]

@@DickFrancis-dt3tl out of curiosity .. do you see my reply that gives historcial information that suggests otherwise to your supposition? I can't see my own reply for some reason

[@Rachel_M_]

​@@stevel9914 your reply with the history isn't showing. My dad was into CB radio decades ago. No news to explain the powers of the GPO to me 😉

[@DickFrancis-dt3tl]

@@stevel9914 No I don't see your reply. However historical information won't help your claim, The Post Office that is involved in this scandal isn't the Post Office that existed prior to the 1970s.

[@alexanderv7702]

Where are the operators that carried out the will of their masters, who changed the figures of the sub postmasters from a healthy balance to a deficit?

[@jaywalker1233]

Hang on a moment! If the client lies to their barrister the barrister resigns! And if the defendant blatantly lies to the judge they get prosecuted for perjury! But neither of these things happened - so what the f*

[@Selena-ff5er]

Thank you I found it very interesting but always thought this kind of lies went on because like you said the amount of money involved to cover these cost is absurd no wonder people just can’t continue.

[@andykrykant5378]

Total failure of the legal profession, justice system, Lawers, courts and judges. Now they are all talking to us as if it was nothing to do with them. Must have been someone else.

[@kieranbarry4203]

I think the max penalty for "perverting the course of justice" is Life. Everyone involved in the prosecution inside the Post Office and Fujitsu and both boards should be charged with that and conspiracy.

[@Tonyd5996]

More than ‘vaguely’ interesting sir, very interesting. I look forward to more of your musings, especially on the Horizon case. Thank you for your input.

[@JeffJefferyUK]

At what point does a barrister fire their own client for lying to them? Surely if you've been put in to the position of having to write an apology letter to the judge it's time to say "Screw these people, they can find a new solicitor to act on their behalf..."

[@ianmowbray3284]

This is very shady that the post office new about big problems with the system and they chose to ignore it.some of these poor people lost everything.

[@anthonymauger9388]

Justice had a day off when staff were found guilty, PO bosses need jail time

[@christinemackenzie5454]

It’s not all highly technical and boring. It’s the truth that FACTS were withheld from the Barristers in the first place AND they even had the hard neck to attempt to get rid of the judge, these two facts alone prove that behaviour of the Post Office officials slid UK Legal experts into Banana Republic territory. Why the silence at the time?

[@formicapple2]

Thanks for this enlightening post.

[@doughill1945]

One big question. Who in the Post Office (or Government) decided to ask for recusal. The public ought to be told

[@xcskidog6937]

So why aren't these people in jail for perjury ?

[@funbank1]

Why were outstanding entries in that suspense account never researched properly? Why weren’t auditors screaming about this . We used suspense accounts to plug end of day outages until they could be researched. This was in bank accounting. Remarkable.

[@palemale2501]

Can you please give a list of possible criminal charges that might be laid against the Post Office staff and their Board and any witnesses that the Post Office produced. I reckon there may be over a dozen, excluding FSA and Banking Regulations. The defence and their lawyers seem to have been frivolous, deceptive and deployed tactics to abuse the court system..

[@indigohammer5732]

Certainly perjury. The recent parliamentary committee highlighted that their company accounts submitted dishonest figures regarding their bonuses. The CPS charging all concerned and seeking successful prosecutions is no vital in ensuring public trust in The Post Office. The fact that it’s taken an ITV drama to get this out in the open, is scandalous

[@palemale2501]

Thanks - I wanted a qualified lawyer to list all likely formal charges. Problem is after Inquiry there may be a token Post Office fraud officer or 2, and maybe a tech from Fujitsu charged, then later cases are dropped. There are maybe hundreds of wrong-doers here who will escape especially the elite PO board and CEOs@@indigohammer5732

[@rickbear7249]

The Post Office, despite [supposedly] being a private company at this time, had somehow retained legal privileges that we might only expect to see in organisations like the MoD. I'd love you to produce another video looking at how many other private organisations have these kinds of "law unto themselves" kinds of privilege; explaining how they work and from whence they originate. Thanks.

[@davidspear9790]

I guess it's the archaic laws that have never been repealed since the Crown had sole control of these organisations, even though most of them are now in private hands.

[@carolynhaywood7701]

I would bet money on that all the Bosses, Lawyers, executives, M.Ps and any high ups will get away with all of this. None of these will be prosecuted or even have to pay anything. There will be NO real justice for all the Postmaster/Mistress.

[@dinahhemstock6765]

I can see where you're coming from, and hope you're wrong.

[@carolynhaywood7701]

@@dinahhemstock6765 I really hope I’m wrong too.

[@Hertog_von_Berkshire]

Un-blinkin-believable!

[@peterteagleteagle9958]

I bet the shredding machine working flat out