Pot Gets Too Big for my Hand ($6000)

In this call the Hero 4 bets QQ to drive out a field caller then is left in quite the predicament postflop when the pot gets very large.
To submit a hand for consideration for the call-in show read instructions here: crushlivepoker....
If you want to improve your live win-rate checkout the best training site for NL cash games in the business CrushLivePoker.com.

[@peter12215]

I was at the table when this hand was played (seat 1 if Hero remembers). I think as a default i'd bet turn. River sucks, this guy is an action guy but people generally dont bluff here for this size and this guy is more the loose calling type of action than the bluff for huge size type of action. I think hand is played fine, if anything turn check is bigger mistake than river call IMO. Reason for turn check IMO would be thinking V floats flop light a decent amount and then bluffs river, or that it's hard to get value from worse on turn. I don't think JJ, or Tx ever fold turn and nut FDs probably still call as well so I'd just bet. Basically once you check turn i just don't think you can fold river because you took the line to bluff catch river.

[@jf5618]

Given your knowledge of the table dynamics, if H bets turn, given it sounds like V can still have FD, T,9, etc, then what do you do in H spot vs all in river shove? Sounds to me that V is the action player who is capable (?) which lends to getting paid off w big hands as you well know. Not being there when I heard H say his image was TAG…given the line takin, perhaps that reason I could find to bet turn, fold river. In fact, I thought he was going to fold given that information ;-)

[@CrushlivePoker]

Peter, is the guy I was referencing that is the new CLP coach over CrushLivePoker where he reviews a lot of his own play from this very game. Peter, do you think it's too thin to go bet bet bet for stacks with QQ in this specific config in the game? I think it may have been edited out at the beginning but this game plays like 5-10-20 90% of the time and for whatever reason in this hand there wasn't a straddle on. That comes into play I think a bit in these situations (people not treating this as a 450BB effective spot). Peter's latest video is here you can check out 5 minutes of it: crushlivepoker.com/videos/player-pool-exploits-and-good-board-textures-to-bluff

[@peter12215]

@@CrushlivePoker When you can't get value from TT anymore i think it might be getting a bit thin to play for stacks mainly targeting JJ. Also knowing the Villain i also don't know how much Tx he squeezes pre. I think on an 8 or lower board i'm playing for stacks 100% even 450bb deep. because you can get value from 99-TT now. Idk even on this board it's close. I don't really mind how the caller played the hand. River spot just sucks.

[@peter12215]

If i bet turn i'd bet small. I also think hands like TT and AA will c/r off turn sometimes when you do that so going small is that is an argument for going for river value on clean rivers

[@ivangonzalez2367]

@@CrushlivePoker I would never check turn here, with nit players, its very difficult to make profitable call on river, imagine that QQ if u check in turn is your best bluff catch hand and you both are doubting to call or not to call, so i prefer make the hand more simple by betting turn and fold vs shove raise or lead shove in river, if turn was bet call i check back on river. On turn u still can make fold to AK AQ suted that has like 20 porcent of equity to bust u on river and u can value bet 99, JJ and some TT. I hate the check back on turn vs weak nit players.

[@bradleyhanson]

What's even worse about the euro situation is most of them don't pay any taxes either! An LA reg has to gross $150k to take home $100k whereas a traveling UK reg can earn $100k and take home $100k. It's an astronomical difference in potential net win rates.

[@phrikshin1]

I think as played some QQ hands have to call but I think the Qc is an extremely relevant blocker. KQcc and AQcc are here for most players.

[@billmoran6]

Usually ppl aren't supposed to bluff missed flush draws because they block folds. In a 4bet bloated pot though I'm not sure if you can find enough bluffs without bluffing missed flush draws though, and if it's really all that relevant since youre range betting flop presumably and you might check back some flush draws on the turn to realize equity. Having the Qd or Ad would be just as bad imo because hands like AQdd would definitely float flop and would bluff river at 100% frq, and a lot of regs these days don't bluff missed flush draws often enough because it's a pretty good rule of thumb that they just overdo (there are spots where you have to bluff missed flush draws but many regs just think missed flush draw=bad bluff and don't fire). Since there is only one combo of QQ without Qc or Qd you might have to just call this combo.

[@Daniel-fo9jf]

This hand is probably best as a bet, bet, checkback river line. QQ seems way too thin to play for stacks when TT beats you and your only main value is from ATs and JJ on the river. Checking turn seems to me to be a huge mistake as you allow your opponent to realize with AK and flush draws as well as take the betting lead if he has AA, KK and TT. If villain donk shoves river it's much easier to fold and less costly if hero just bet the turn.

[@tonyneuman1500]

Agree 100% here. This is for sure a "two streets of value" hand, but the two streets are very important. If we assume villain's range includes all AK, that's 16 combos right there (and him having would also be critical b/c it blocks 50% of your AA and KK combo), and is a big reason I'd bet turn and then shut down almost all rivers that aren't a Q. When you check the turn, you give villain WAY too much incentive to push you around on river. For example, if I had AK and you played as is, I'd likely jam river to either try and get you off a chop or make your life really hard with QQ or JJ. Checking the turn takes away a lot of your positional advantage but empowering villain to fire away on a lot of rivers. If you bet turn and he c/r's you can probably fold. And if you go bet-turn, he calls, then jams river, you've also got a lot more info than you have now. The one thing the caller said that I really like though is about the possible bet-sizing tell by villain on the river. By slightly over-betting when a 2/3 to 3/4 is readily available to him, unless we believe he's a thinking, well-balanced player, that might be enough to sway a decision. But to be honest, if I had checked to set up the river, on that exact river I'd have probably beat villain into the pot and then looked foolish, but I really think you do have to call.

[@SmokinBear199]

@@tonyneuman1500 Super agree with this, and it makes a lot of sense that the two streets are very important. Also I'm glad you see my point about the bet sizing tell, it's the main point of my call in to be honest. This ISN'T a super smart player - he's somewhat aware but not balanced/disciplined. If you think about it in his shoes why bluff $2400 when he could just bet $1.8-2k and seemingly accomplish the same thing? I think this singular data point in a live game skews his hand for value as much as 50-60% more often, but at the end of the day it wasn't enough for me to go off of in the moment.

[@Daniel-fo9jf]

​@@SmokinBear199 Also think this play (bet-check-bet) would be much better with AcA, you don't have to worry about him catching up with a flush draw or spiking a set (so unlikely). But AA no club, KK and QQ mainly want to be betting the flop, the turn and then evaluating the river, probably betting river with KK+ and checking back QQ. But yeah the river call isn't bad, personally I think this player is repping AA, TT, 99 with his sizing and as we all know live players don't bluff enough, however I'm just a chat pro so I'd probably reluctantly flick in the call too 🤣

[@xxxYYZxxx]

@12:25 "...pot control comes from pot limit". Great insight. I think limp/re-raising is a PL play and straddling comes from PL too.

[@patricksweeney6414]

I think more emphasis should be placed on the hero having the Qc here, blocking hands like AQc, KQc, and even QJc that villain could be bluffing river with. Other bluffs might be A5c, A2c, A3c but if villian has these hands then he also has A4c. Other than that, he shouldn't be floating flop with too many other hands that would miss and then feel the need to blast river. I think AK checks river other than occasionally trying to get hero off a chop. He's going to have 10's and 9's all day. If he has A10 or JJ I don't think he is taking this polarized size on the river. Really tough spot, especially given that we are relatively high up in our range after checking turn and so we are more incentivized to put the money in. I think a reasonable approach here might be folding out QQc and calling with non-club combos. Thanks Bart!

[@Daniel-fo9jf]

main mistake seems to be checking turn, turn check makes sense with AA to balance with AK, but QQ is probably better as a bet because you deny equity to flush draws and AK while also giving yourself the option to simply check back the river.

[@patricksweeney6414]

@@Daniel-fo9jf Yeah, he is going to have some ace high floats as well as ace high flush draws after the flop action, as well as specifically AK, and denying equity makes sense. However, hero blocks so many flush draws with the Qc, particularly in a 4 bet pot where lots of suited broadways like AQc, KQc, QJc should be reflected in villians continuing range but can't be in this spot, that checking turn is much more reasonable than if villian didn't have a club. Also, if villian connected with a K or A on the river it would just go check check anyway. Even if villian already had 10 10 he might check it over to the hero on the river. So I think checking turn is ok. But for the same reasons I think checking is ok, an overbet from villian on the river is a lot more value heavy than if hero didn't have a club.

[@patricksweeney6414]

@@Daniel-fo9jf I say all this as someone who's first instinct was to snap call river bc "well I checked turn with an overpair". After thinking about it, I think it might be a fold with the Qc. Not sure I would actually find a fold live though.

[@patricksweeney6414]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 This deep, it is possible. But I agree, out of position it would be a mistake. The problem is if you're going to discount A4cc, you also have to discount all those other bluff combos. Meaning he barely has any flush draws since the other hands we would be looking at are ones with the Qc. Meaning we are heavily weighted towards having to fold anyway.

[@patricksweeney6414]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 Sorry you're right! I meant A4 suited otherwise.

[@gabrielrockman]

I think AK is a good hand for the villain to bluff with because he blocks Aces and Kings, and he can be targeting a hand like Queens or Jacks with his bluff.

[@sr4087]

On a scale of playing scared to Ram-Punting; gto lies in the middle

[@Will_Moffett]

As a rec player the sucker in me likes to see massive stacks at the table because I like the idea of buying in for 100 bb and having the potential for winning 2000 bb. I think Doug could have it wrong here but I doubt there's been like a survey or anything done. This is why parlays are so popular in sports, because it's the suckerish side of people thinking they can risk small and win big.

[@bandpeeps1]

any decent rec player knows if someone is sitting 20x their stack, they will be losing that day. poker and parlays are vastly different, apples to oranges.

[@Will_Moffett]

@@bandpeeps1 What does "decent" mean for describing rec players? To rec players poker and parlays and the lotto is all the same. You have no gamble in you. You are one of the studious boring guys who came into poker after it was a well worn path. Just shut up. There has got to be someone somewhere playing too many hands you can go make a few bucks from.

[@cryptobenjis8600]

In order to balance your AK range checking the turn you need to be able to call QQ on river since that’s the best hand you’ll normally check turn with

[@jaydreb]

On the river, you have to ask whether 33% of the time he can be value betting a worse hand or bluffing. The only worse hand that he could be value betting is literally just JJ. Whether he could be bluffing is player dependent, but most live players aren't bluffing $2k into a 4 bettor. River is close but I can find a fold.

[@jmvindustrydaredeviljo1382]

No one is value betting 100% pot with JJ there (unless there is some weird meta). QQ is purely a bluff catcher and it is just quite dependent on the player. I’d say most prolly underbluff but some overbluff. Live, there always seems to also be interesting metas which may tilt things toward either direction.

[@ActionKingsPoker]

I'm calling here

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

I think against most players in my player pool it’s a clear fold. Losing to AA/KK/TT/99. But I still put in the crying call 😂

[@DescartesRenegade]

Literally only beating JJ, but Villian isn't betting pot to get value from AK. If Villian had AKcc, it would've played been for stacks on flop. AKo isn't calling out of position there.

[@danielhurst8863]

Stopped at 8:00. I think this hand went a bit off the rails because you changed how you were going to play the hand, street by street. That's usually a bad idea. I'm not saying don't evaluate cards on the turn and river, but have a plan for the hand before the flop is dealt. On the flop, you indicated you were playing for stacks, which was a plan, but what hands can your foe have here and call off for stacks that you beat? AdTd? JJ?. That seems to be a bit thin for someone to stack off with a pair of tens or jacks. Personally, outside much more information about the player, I'd not be going for stacks on that flop, but I'd still bet the flop, likely half pot, but my plan would never be get it all in by the river, my plan would be charge JJ, AcKc, AdTd to continue, but I'd keep pot control in mind. I'd also bet the turn. On the river as played, raising is EV-, whether. you call is very player dependent. There are some players I'd snap call his because they bluff a missed flush draw way too often, and other players it's an instant fold because it's always TT. With the information given, I'd lean to a fold, and only call if I believed that foe would definitely bet 9c8c (that requires foe 3! 98 suited from the small blind against a UTG raise, so not going to be here that often) and AcKc on river as a bluff, which means there are other bluffs as well in his range. While your turn check may induce foe to bit wider on the River, what is he betting that you beat? Pretty much JJ. You lose to A4, TT, 99, T9s, which would all play how foe played.

[@isaacfreund4474]

One small thing - hero beats all combos of T9.

[@rhpmike]

Good analysis. As an aside, have you outsourced titles and images lately because I am not the first to notice that they seem less and less relevant to the calls.

[@brianfloyd2279]

Capped buy in games are usually better. I used to play a home game that was 2/5 with 300 max, and the game was juicy af. Then we moved it up to 500 max, and it was still good. Once it went to max stack it pushed the smaller weaker players out, and u ended up with a game where it's 7 or 8 grinders (and me! 😂) playing against esch other.

[@thegriz2270]

Local home game to me is better being a deep match stack game. The true gamblers wanna play deeper in my area

[@brianfloyd2279]

@@thegriz2270 do u want true gamblers or softer players? I'd much rather play 1/2 with a table of suckers than 2/5 with true gamblers.

[@paulpena5040]

I would have called for sure. WHen someone DOESN"T 5 bet you pre, while it's still possible they have As and Ks it opens up their range pretty wide to many other hands. 3 bet squeezers don't like to fold (unless he was getting cute with a really weak hand). You gave up on the turn and river so your hand really does look weak like AK, AQ s type of hands. If he had 10 9, J10, Q 10, AK s or busted flush draws they could all semi-bluff the river and you only need to be right 1 in 3 times. I think it's +ev regardless of the outcome.

[@DavidSmith-lj1yz]

I guess I see too many monsters but..we open, call, raise, we raise again, fold, call...what is calling here? Aces maybe, not KK or AKs, QQ thru 99 but we have QQ, and suited wheels maybe some suited connectors. Flop 10, 4, 4...what are we beating here that calls any size c bet? JJ, AK, A5, and 99 but that gets there on the river. Are we really winning half the time here? Again, I play lower stakes but I don't see too many pot size river bluffs in 4 bet pots. Great content as always thanks.

[@bobbyshnoby2603]

Agree with most guys here: 25%-30% bet on the turn and check back river would have saved hero some money

[@rhpmike]

I’m folding this most of the time and I think the way it was played is fine. River decision cannot be wrong by more than a couple hundred dollars if he has a bluff range here.

[@alwayssorry2037]

These spot happen so often. Can over bet or pot bet mean a strong hand all the time on the river?

[@tightlines7]

I think you have to call with the line you took which I like to play also. I do fold if I take the bet bet check line when he raises.

[@drfunkinstein1]

I'd say you need to call the bet. After checking the turn that is the plan to induce a bluff. Then snap call river.

[@peterkerr7698]

Can someone explain what Bart means when he said the hero needed to call with the top 50% of his range on the river when the villain bet pot. The hero would be getting 2 to 1 on a call, so wouldn’t he need to win 33% of the time to call and profitable, so where does the 50% come from. In a given scenario, when a villain gets pot, a hero’s top 33% of range may not always win and his bottom 66% might now always lose so it makes sense why it might not be 33%, but why does Bart mention 50%? I’m not sure about that part.

[@peterkerr7698]

Sorry my math is wrong here lol. He needs to win 33% of the time to break even, so using thag logic he should call with the top 66% of hands in range if I’m thinking about that correctly but my overall point still stands of where does 50% come from?

[@joec5139]

I don't get the logic of thinking you're good on the flop and not on the river when it bricks? But I do get that seeing a free river isn't always a bad thing. Got taken to value town. Everybody visits value town. The lesson here? Call with pocket 4s and take everybody's 💰

[@crooninmoonie6440]

i “love” how he cuts the speaker from telling the hand not even 5 seconds into it lol

[@drdrayfromla99]

He could have suited 10-x and thinks you missed with two over Broadway cards especially with your deceptive check on the turn. If you’re checking that turn, you should expect a lead out on the river by the villain which is what you’re trying to induce by checking the turn. Not a bad call. Lost the minimum I think by checking that turn.

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

That doesn’t make sense. If he thinks you have AK or AQ why would he bet pot with JT and make you fold? T-x would either bet small (block bet vs QQ/JJ, get a crying call from AK) or check.

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

KQ/KJ/QJ seem like more likely bluffs.

[@ToneGuruLA]

short stack reg at HP. I love when huge stacks are at the table and I can buy in for $500. They call light. It use to be a $500 buy in. Been playing online since they made it 8 ring and masks... kinda ruined it for me in many ways. Will be back at my usual 1000 + hour a yr pace very soon tho. BTW, Keep up the great work BH.

[@youtubelife9248]

Love fish like you. Anyone that short buys gets zero action from me

[@ToneGuruLA]

​@@youtubelife9248 Aren't you special... Most folks think short stack in a cash game is a disadvantage... one of the many things that make poker awesome. Common misconceptions.

[@Its__Good]

I don't really grasp what the complaint about the 'euros' is? As in, I literally don't understand the situation. Could someone enlighten me?

[@boojay7076]

How can I go over a hand with you? I have an interesting one where an opponent checks back full house when I rivered 2 outer

[@whataretheoddz]

I do not play much live poker but I'm confused as to why in a 4 bet after checking the turn this river call is even in question?

[@drdrayfromla99]

It isn’t either imo for the reason you stated.

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 you could argue AT is a better call on the river. It blocks AA and TT down to 4 combos total instead of 9. It loses to JJ and QQ but do those hands really bet pot on the river? I don’t think so.

[@whataretheoddz]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 I'm only 4 betting a10 suited as bluff at like an 8% or so frequency in certain configurations in 6 max so I don't see myself ever even ending up here in a live game with an a10 combo. However if I did it would be a snap call for that sizing just like queens. I'm also not looking to make exploitable folds unless I am absolutely sure they have no bluffs, and i beat none of there value.

[@granjerojose]

Regarding the euros: they don't care for sure lol

[@michaelmulvania6060]

I can't find a good reason to fold.

[@fastfunpokerjamie124]

The pot size bet is making up for missed value on the turn… not saying i lay down

[@DescartesRenegade]

Calling with Ax on the flop out of position...? AKcc would likely be a check raise for stacks. JJ-99 is whats check calling on flop. By time river is there, hero is only beating JJ. Is JJ betting pot for value from AK? The river is a pretty clear fold.

[@brianmaher2662]

Yes, AA through 99 and A4s are the only hands villain has by the river and like @Ben Pon just said you're only beating JJ and would JJ be betting pot on the river.

[@edwardrendleman3892]

When most people call a bet from out of position on a dry board and then bet a later street, they’re rarely bluffing in my experience. Either they had to float with plans to bluff or call because they may be good but bluff with their showdown value. It’s a way underbluffed spot. I’d fold here.

[@gregdigio8318]

Guy says it's more comfortable call on river if it 2/3 pot, then says why bluff full pot?? Answered his own question.

[@persianprince4689]

I’m calling just because we checked the turn.. it’s bleff. I would have rather checked the flop with the Q of clubs to not inflate the pot

[@rockwithyou2006]

the caller is so confused

[@alistairwillock7266]

This. His thought process sounds terribly confused.

[@blakefredrickson6506]

“I called. I put him on Tens or 9s, and he had Tens.” Classic case of ppl acting like they knew all along what villain had… except this guy called despite “knowing” he was going to lose. Weird flex.

[@kemillionaire2]

Calling and expecting to see a A4

[@Mathemagical55]

I don't like 4-betting QQ this deep.

[@CrushlivePoker]

There was a flat call behind in the LJ though.

[@jolaz69]

Just a cooler in poker. It happens. Pay the guy his money and move on.

[@joemiller95]

Almost every hand on this channel is the same: the caller describes a situation where he played horribly preflop, generally made it worse on the flop, and he wants to know how he should have played from them on and usually what he should have done on the river when things were already in full disaster mode. How is it worthwhile to go that far preflop with QQ? He raised to 40, which is slightly high, but ok, then someone calls, and then the SB reraises the pot of 130 by 165. That's a high raise and it distorts the pot odds. Maybe that's a call if you want to push it. Our guy calling that brings the pot to 460. Our guy raises that by 470. With QQ. And his issue is what to do on the river?

[@isaacfreund4474]

What exactly is the problem with the preflop sizing? 4x is slightly larger for live but not that unusual, and if he’s going to get action at that size, he can be using it. Then his 4B! vs a SB 3B! is pretty standard with QQ with the SB incentivized to squeeze with the LP caller inbetween. I think the really mistakes here are: - caller not having a consistent plan after saying he wanted to go for stacks on the flop but then deciding to check back the turn. and - checking back the turn here to call river. I think this is a 2 street hand given the action. Probably should have gone Bet Bet Check on the river, especially with Qc in his hand. But still, the hand wasn’t played badly, he just got beat.

[@joemiller95]

@@aheroictaxidriver3180 That's great. I would love to play against people who take QQ that far preflop.

[@88mphDrBrown]

@@joemiller95 what do you mean "that far"? It's a 4! with QQ and his sizing was fine. You're advocating that he should flat so he can play monkey in the middle with a LAG behind him with QQ?

[@joemiller95]

@@88mphDrBrown Player raises to 40 UTG, sizing is already on the large size and he only has QQ. When asked, the player has to think about how much he had, doesn't offer that first, yet it's very significant, and doesn't say how many people in the hand, only gives a rough idea, also very significant, seems like the player isn't very conscious of two of the most significant elements before the hand even starts. There's a caller, pot is 95, with the call from SB pot is 135, and now the SB raises the pot by 165, which is 122%. Of all the players this guy should want out of the pot, why the LAG who's playing foolishly? That's the guy he wants in there to keep making his mistakes. And the raise was more than big enough for his need if he wants a bigger pot. He has QQ, which isn't particularly dominating UTG. He has a decent hand, not much more than that, he'd like to see a flop, and he can probably call that even though the raise is distorting his pot odds. But now the pot is 460 and our guy decides he needs to raise that? With QQ? Again, why? To avoid "playing monkey in the middle" with the guy he most wants in the pot? How is that a positive choice? So our guy raises to 650, which is a raise of 445 on 460, or 97%? And this is for what reason? It's already distorted enough and likely to remove the profit center from the hand, the LJ, which it does.

[@Jackyjr24]

1:15 why is that bad?

[@sr4087]

As played a fold here is ludicrous and not the Asian Hustler

[@shadowwarsshadypeople6299]

The last 3,4+ videos are all reuploads..what's going on here?

[@CrushlivePoker]

getting old..

[@ggthegoat3455]

how is 4x a standard open? isnt that too big?

[@nodsmir]

Dude, you beat JJ and AKcc and NOTHING ELSE! Horrible call.

[@DescartesRenegade]

"if he's capable of bluffing I'd call" is one of the most costly mindsets to have. You're gonna get wrecked thinking every decent player is bluffing you.

[@rhpmike]

Feel like this would be a better take if it wasn’t referencing a long term winner in these exact games …

[@jakecooper5855]

It's absurd to think that this sort of analysis and decision making is happening during the hand. Maybe more so with this caller than others. He is trying to justify and analyse his play after the fact. During the hand the only thought process is exploitative. It's QQ up against a LAG and he is playing each action based on the cards with no outright plan. As happens in just about every single hand by everyone ever. All this analysis and GTO strategy is a myth used to look back on hands played, but in the moment everybody plays exploitatively, with some basic hand charts for their preflop action. There are very few players that are an exception to this.