Practically FREE Primordial Gravitational Waves Detector

[@roqua]

50:28 This part of the discussion with Frasier's response as mind-blown and Dr. Zwick's counter-response affirming how crazy the phenomena we are talking about are... just so cool. 100 seconds of signal strength peak as light is zipping through the distance this supermassive black hole could collapse in

[@marshalleubanks2454]

This was first done in an attempt to detect very-low-frequency-band gravitational waves by Doppler tracking the Voyager I spacecraft at its solar oppositions in January, 1979 and March, 1980. The paper is "spacecraft-Doppler gravity-wave detection. II. Results " and Ron Hellings is the first author.

[@LPMutagen]

​@@marshalleubanks2454 here's the abstract: A description is presented of the results of experiments conducted to detect very-low-frequency (VLF)-band gravitational radiation. The experiments are based on Doppler tracking of the Voyager I spacecraft. There were basically two kinds of experiments performed. The first was concerned with the detection of solitary bursts of gravitational radiation such as might emanate from a single violent astrophysical event. There were no positive results of the search for such burst events at a level of 3 x 10 to the -14th, nearly two orders of magnitude away from the required sensitivity. The second kind of experiment performed was related to an attempt to detect the isotropic background of cosmic gravitational radiation. The negative results fail by a little over an order of magnitude to limit radiation below the existing limits due to cosmic evolution. In summary, there was no detection of gravitational radiation at an amplitude of 3 x 10 to the -14th for VLF waves of frequency around 0.001 Hz.

[@MatthewMaughan-w9r]

This channel is a consistent way for me to answer the question, "If I had unlimited funds, where would I put that money." The answer is every experiment that is on this channel.

[@dmitryshusterman9494]

I think nasa would do a better job of allocating your money. Just sign them in to your bank account and you good

[@revmsj]

@@dmitryshusterman9494probably, but there’s still a better way. Can you imagine the amount of fat that could be trimmed from any governmentally overseen entity like they?? Kick the congress men and women out of their review boards, and I’ll bet you we get a lot more done with less money. Also just the various fat that may exist within NASA itself. Oh and also ban all future Blur Origin involvement as they tend to be a net loss with their propensity for litigation. 🙄

[@revmsj]

Oh yeah and another thing, they can save money on astronauts! Hell, I’d be willing to pay them to go to the moon!🤷🏾‍♂️

[@Skukkix23]

nobody talking about how he casually knows all the engeneering numbers, also from lisa and can in a few seconds calculate possibiliities? holy moly

[@chimpychimp4921]

Lol. I love that moment of realization Fraser gave him. "Oh, shoot, you're right, we could do this with ANY outer solar system probe!"

[@MelindaGreen]

I loved the moment of realization in the other direction when Zwick told him that Lisa is just the right size to pick up direct collapse of SMBHs at high redshifts.

[@NovaDeb]

Super interesting! It's great to see how much enthusiasm that he shows!

[@MelindaGreen]

So the dream mission would be a swarm of gravitational laser Sputniks. Glutniks? I'm calling it now!

[@wolpumba4099]

*Summary* *Dr. Lorenz Zwick proposes using existing/planned space missions to detect gravitational waves.* * *(**02:39**)* *The Idea:* Use the Doppler ranging data from spacecraft on missions to the outer solar system (like the proposed Uranus mission). * *(**05:59**)* *How it Works:* Doppler ranging measures the distance between Earth and the spacecraft. Gravitational waves would cause tiny, oscillating changes in this distance, detectable over time. * *(**15:07**)* *Advantages:* * No additional hardware needed on the spacecraft. * Explores a gravitational wave frequency range (microhertz) not covered by other observatories. * *(**15:46**)* *Potential Discoveries:* * Individual supermassive black hole binaries. * Primordial gravitational waves from the early universe. * Insights into dark matter interactions. * *Challenges:* * Noise from various sources needs to be accounted for. * Requires long-term tracking (10+ years). * Sensitivity is not as high as dedicated gravitational wave observatories. * *(**22:54**)* *Ideal Mission:* * Multiple spacecraft (2+) at 90° angles for better localization. * Upgraded ranging from radio waves to lasers for increased precision and sensitivity. *Other Research by Dr. Zwick:* * *(**35:29**)* *Direct Collapse of Black Holes:* Investigates the possibility that supermassive black holes formed directly from large gas clouds in the early universe, potentially detectable with Lisa. * *(**50:39**)* *Black Hole Accretion Disks:* Explores how gravitational waves can be used to study the properties of accretion disks around black holes, especially those feeding supermassive black holes. i used gemini 1.5 pro to summarize the transcript

[@jkn6644]

Good summary! We do need additional hardware on Earth! We don't have enough large radio antennas to continuously monitor all satellites we have.

[@GadZookz]

Thanks!👍🏼 Without these interviews there would be a big black whole in science news where now there is light.

[@Roguescienceguy]

*hole

[@ianshepherd2861]

Great interview, Dr Zwick is awesome. Thanks Fraser ❤

[@ytcampana]

Super interview ,thanks Fraser. 👍

[@davidwhiteford4936]

Another outstanding interview and guest!

[@fkaMilo]

Wonderful interview!!!!

[@cavetroll666]

great interview cheers.

[@kurtisengle6256]

Lorenz Zwick. What a name. One feels the urge to interview his parents. "What were you thinking?" I'm guessing cosmology.

[@marshalleubanks2454]

At 24:00 - there are two proposals (at least) to do gravitational wave missions using laser ranging / interferometry with multiple spacecraft in the solar system on a "super LISA" scale - the ILTN (Interplanetary Laser Tri-lateration Network) (which I am involved with) and microAres (muAres).

[@frasercain]

Of course you did. Am I going to need to interview you again?

[@marshalleubanks2454]

@@frasercain Let's get something published first :)

[@warpeace8891]

Great interview, Thanks for sharing your excellent efforts Fraser. I have so many questions.

[@revmsj]

This is super interesting but I can’t wrap my head around the sheer amount of noise there must be necessarily stemming from all the normal sources but then the constant movement and your sensors (the probe itself) not exactly being shielded etc. that has to be accounted for and removed in order to render proper results. I suppose that’s why this guy is obviously way more learned than I…🤷🏾‍♂️ Good luck to him! I really can’t wait to see the results! And, Fraser, thank you, sir, for all you do!👍🏾

[@brainbark]

Amazing. Simply amazing.

[@papaver5]

Damn, this was one of your best interviews. I absolutely loved it, so easy to understand. I would hit like twice if I could.

[@bachtube11]

Fascinating! ... and inspiring! maybe its possible some day to use gravitational wave detection to detect planet X!

[@NicholasNerios]

I vote yes, with the understanding it's not depleting resources. Although straight time might be only acceptable if no other uses might arise requiring use under different settings.

[@tejbirsingh5661]

How about we do this for all space craft that travel far away from earth? Over time, we would build up a lot of data with minimal added expense.

[@SailboatDiaries]

Is there any meta-material for bending gravitational waves? A “gravitational wave invisibility cloak” for alien civilizations that don’t want to be found?

[@tiagotiagot]

Could the whole constellation of GPS satellites be used as an Earth-sized gravitational wave detector?

[@nbyz]

Question: What is more energetic in the universe: Dark energy or solar Fusion?

[@RagaarAshnod]

Could a mission to Uranus, like this, also be used to measure the one way speed of light? 🤔

[@NOM-X]

Cain, you have to talk about the new better telescope in Aerospace that has been talked about, that supersedes the WEBB. Or if there were two Webb's that would do more, but bring undisputed evidence about life on other planets. Different systems, Stars, Planets, Moons, GV pull, etc. I know its like talk about going to the beach with the wife, and analyzing every grain. But at the sme time, there is something out there that we have to find. Tax dollars and Congress is the hardest part. But when the day comes where we know, it all pays off. Thanks for the great episode, and as always bud, Stay Safe. - NOM

[@zelrex4657]

Shouldn't there be 3 ships so that it can track in 3 dimensions. I feel 2 would be only able to detect along the plane of the earth and the 2 space crafts.

[@tiagotiagot]

Could the Stereo satellites be useful for this?

[@rajveerchampavat6757]

I think astronomers should rewrite the classification of stars (population I,II & III) as it creates confusion. It should be like the first generation of star should be called population I star and so on. Can we raise this issue?

[@THX..1138]

Here's an interesting idea for gravitational wave detectors...If aliens are flying around the galaxy with warp drives gravitational wave detectors may be able to detect them. So maybe it's time for Gravitational Wave SETI.

[@ahgflyguy]

I wish more time would have been spent on just how much radio comms time this would take. Like, does a single outage between jupiter and uranus cause problems? Or is that fine. What's the degardation of the data? Could you have one earth station that services the satellite for like 8 hours of the day? Or would this require 3 earth stations minimum? What amount of continuity is needed? Are they wanting to count individual wave crests? Because that has implications for how big the dish has to be. For a dedicated mission, would sending one straight north be an idea, so that it could use a single dedicated dish in Thule or in Canada? What is the expected amplitude of the oscillation (in seconds) due to what we think is the most typical thing we think exists at a typical distance where we think it would be? The frequency he stated this would measure is micro-hertz range, and I think he said the black hole pairs would have orbital periods an order of magnitude slower than that, so our solar system would contain a tenth of a wavelength at a time I guess? How much stretching are we talking, in terms of millimeters / micrometers? How much noise do we think is there? When the signal is of a longer period than our measurement, doesn't that make us extraordinarily susceptible to all kinds of low frequency noise?

[@FernandoNuevo-il7ym]

Fascinating

[@nekomakhea9440]

Does it have to be a space craft, or could Earth-based radio, microwave, and optical instruments measure doppler shifts as Earth moves towards and away from the outer planets? Earth could easily have 2+ instruments for measuring Neptune & Uranus at the same time for triangulation, if so. Missions to the outer planets are rare, two at once even more so, but there's many instruments of many types on Earth. Most missions of this type would have a limited observation time; perhaps a permanent probe in a highly elliptical orbit of an outer planet could act as a long term gravitational observatory in this gap between pulsars and interferometry, but again, outer planet missions are rare, while Earth based observation would be effectively permanent. The "Earth-based" instrument doesn't necessarily even have to be on Earth's surface, it could be orbital observatories' instruments measuring doppler shifts as well. Or perhaps an instrument with the required accuracy could be put into orbit relatively cheaply since it's just a pair of laser or radar range finders, and continuously measure perturbations in the triangular distance between Earth, Uranus, and Neptune from orbit where it doesn't have the noise of passing highway traffic and seismic vibrations like surface based instruments.

[@mybirds2525]

They went on a 2 day tour of the Spacestation , Their tiny ship was toossed..... I think we need to rename the space station Gilligans Isalnd

[@lyledal]

"now you don't need a camera" NEVER send out a spacecraft that doesn't have a camera! I need pretty pictures, Fraser!

[@Chris-op7yt]

galaxies do similar dances and cause similar gravitational waves?

[@revmsj]

Al Gore Rhythm!😃👍🏾

[@davesatxify]

wow

[@Hobbes4ever]

i really hope they will probe that planet before I die

[@williamgalbraith3621]

Sorry, I gotta fanboy over that classroom! Imagine sitting in there with all that history and accomplishment just oozing out of the walls! WOW! Okay I'm done. Very cool subject by the way!

[@JeroenvanGutsem-u7e]

Just this week 2 asteroid crossed our tractory between moon-earth, i propose to hitch a ride gravity detector on near earth object flybys

[@emrekipmen]

Population IV stars then, that feeds and collapses to massive blackholes.

[@roqua]

Dr. Lorenz Zwick was a fabulous guest with excellent communication skills and a good interviewee manner about him. Hope you can bring him back soon to follow up on these topics.

[@picksalot1]

Wonderfully interesting Interview. Your ability to ask really smart questions at the right moment in the conversation is impressive. It brings to light the fascinating details of how the exploration of the Universe is taking play and why certain techniques are being used. Thanks

[@Paulus8765]

The guest is on tne of the clearest speakers I've ever heard explaining difficult material. The discussion was also exciting.

[@phemios]

Their curiosity is so contagious ❤

[@andytroo]

he says he zwic says his idea gets strain sensitivity ~10^-15 - LISA (the space laser gravity wave detector) could get 10^-23 for 10^-4 to 0.1 hz ... i'd be interested to see what the noise floor was limited sensitivity in that frequency range. Nanograv achieves 10^-15 from the pulsar timing array at 5 nano-hz with 15 years observation....

[@illustriouschin]

I'm extremely interested in sending a Stubby Hubble to Mars.

[@mattscott8961]

Great interview! Great idea!

[@jeffknott1975]

Wow so we're getting that good at measuring you could sense gravitational waves using radio? This is mind blowing I hope it can work!

[@rainaldkoch9093]

The sensitivity with microwaves over interplanetary distances is similar to that with optical lasers over a few million km (LISA). Both are much worse than the sensitivity of LIGO, but the astrophysical sources are stronger.

[@HebaruSan]

His pronunciation of Uranus is admirably non-embarrassing.

[@Spherical_Cow]

Yeah, it's annoying how English speakers snigger at their own mispronunciation. In the original Greek it is more like, ooh-RAH-nos

[@HebaruSan]

@@Spherical_Cow Yeah, that certainly beats even the alternative "urine-us"

[@MrJdsenior]

Transitional phases of fields. Interesting, and not totally surprising. Analogues on analogues. Direct collapse from gas seems unlikely, but from highly dense primordial matter, as energies dissipate to some required level for the mix, not so much, to me, anyway.

[@mrln247]

High pay grade question? Is anyone looking into the possibility that some of Dark Matter is some sort of Gravitational Wave interference like storms at Sea. Maybe I'm being dumb and gravitational energy wave isn't the same thing as having Gravity.

[@georgitushev]

They need atomic clock to establish the blip pattern

[@rogerdudra178]

Most interesting.

[@junkmail4613]

It is interesting that you are thinking, probing some of the greatest, most creative thinking minds in the world. Fraiser, KEEP IT UP!

[@adamphilip1623]

Is anyone else really hoping that Dr Zwick would lean back in just the right way so that the light fixture in the background looks like a tiny hat? 😂 It hasn't happened yet but I'm still only ten minutes in, 🤞and yes I do have ADHD 🤣

[@dennisestenson7820]

Why not do the same with Voyagers' radio signals? Or does it need extremely very high frequency light to detect the miniscule difference in the measured frequency due to differences in gravity?

[@Prometheus-Unbound]

If in the very early universe massive blackholes formed due to high matter concentrations one can't help but wonder how much of the "missing" matter which dark matter is used to explain actually ended up in them. I know there are other measurements that make the case for dark matter but might the overall balance be wrong?

[@tiagotiagot]

Can we have a constellation of satellites that bounce lasers from the retroreflectors left on the Moon, and use that to detect gravitational waves of large wavelengths? (probably gonna need to use GPS signals for fine-tuning the position estimation of each satellite I imagine)

[@joshmiller7870]

What's the likelihood Triton and Pluto are siblings? When's the next mission to gather more data on Triton?

[@lorak101]

Can this be worked into the Dragonfly Mission Ops?

[@jeffbenton6183]

His name is Lorenz Zwik? His parents clearly wanted him to become a scientist!

[@rajahua6268]

How can a single detector determine the direction of the wave? Perhaps this is just a good-to-have experiment to prove that detection is possible; then send more detectors out in future.

[@cargorunner9960]

"Voyager is too far away".... Is there no historic data from voyager and other missions?

[@nirbhay_raghav]

Lorenz And Zwick(y) in the same name!! Are you messing with us Fraser??❤

[@1000dots]

This one was really fun

[@tomholroyd7519]

how do they correct for the gravitational waves that are already present in the solar system

[@danielsamson9505]

👌👍

[@dunkybones]

Do planetary systems within a galaxy tend to spin in the same direction as the galaxy itself? From a north/South perspective?

[@frasercain]

No, it's random

[@dmitryshusterman9494]

Asteroids rotate, so it would be difficult to keep those mirrors in site. What if we launch thousands of tiny reflectors in thousands of solar orbits with powerful earth based lasers. A perfect application for that technology. I think it's almost within reach now.

[@rainaldkoch9093]

Asteroids are dirty, emit gases and dust, have satellites. Tiny reflectors would be invisible for earth-based lasers. You need "amplification" as with secondary radar.

[@rienkhoek4169]

In the same train of thought, can't the mirror on the moon they use to measure it's distance from earth with a laser be used for the same thing? ( I supppose someone already thought of this and the answer is no)

[@rienkhoek4169]

@25 minutes; D'oh!

[@Roguescienceguy]

This message was brought to you in soft Südtiroler English. Thank you Dr Zwick. Keep coming up with good bargain deal science😉. Very impressive

[@Mr_Kyle_]

This sounds like an ultimate dark gravity experiment and tool!

[@ozumsoz]

Awesome conversations! With a bit of laughter 😆

[@Randomthingswithmidnight]

I am the first view how?

[@rwarren58]

Must be quantum. That’s always the answer.

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

There must always be a first. But there is always a vacancy for last position.

[@NOM-X]

Also, just imagine if NASA, SpaceX, ESA, Blue Origen, JAXA, etc., came together on one common goal, and project that will turn heads to say that we are not alone in this Galaxy, along with the universe. It is truly impossible and ignorant to think that we are the only ones amongst the stars. Thanks again Fraser

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

At 55:20 has he just explained dark matter? If applied to a galaxy rather than to the event horizon of a black hole. It would explain the flatness of the rotation curve of galaxy arms, i.e. dark matter. Without the need for actual dark matter. I think of it in a similar way to dropping a weight with a chain attached. That weight falls quicker than just a weight without a chain. The stars in the galaxy arm acting as a chain pulling the outer stars quicker than if there was not a chain. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jl60d3R4Zcx4qqc

[@StabilisingGlobalTemperature]

And when applied to chains of galaxies, would it explain dark energy? The force of attraction is propagated along the chain. But with something pulling on the further end of the chain, it gives an acceleration force. A bit like the chain fountain: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZW0e3V4oNGjh7M

[@rwarren58]

I understand they make sounds as they stretch space and time. Question: Do they make time waves?

[@ahgflyguy]

" they make sounds as they stretch space and time." Not really. In space nobody can hear you scream, because there's no air to carry your voice. "Do they make time waves?" In space, nobody can tell if you're late, because our space suits are covering up our wristwatches.

[@oatlord]

Lorenz. Zwick. Nick name: Einstein Newton