Practicing Latin Long Vowels

[@fluffytom82]

I hope you won't overdo it... Many of the KZbin "experts" (and primarily the ones with English as their mother tongue) tend to completely exaggerate sounds that are uncommon or inexistent in English, such as the rolling R. The difference between short and long vowels is subtle, and should come natural. Not exessively long, as if you're impersonating a sheep :) Good luck, I'm curious!

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@@rho9904 A lot of Spanish speakers have that minute difference and actually compensate by opening the vowel and lengthening it (e.g. not perrrro vs pero but E: and e)

[@bobthabuilda1525]

My thoughts on this is that if a speaker is attracted to a certain sound in a language (a rolling R, a long vowel), then what's the harm in exaggerating it? Indulging in the little aspects of the language that we find attractive gives us added motivation, and that keeps the language alive. Speak the language how YOU like, but gatekeeping pronunciation is the most needlessly dickish thing I can think of.

[@luizfelipe5399]

@@bobthabuilda1525 I guess when we say English speakers exaggerate the R for example, it's because they fail to make RR stronger than R. Caro and carro should sound different in Latin, as they do in Spanish.

[@goodday2760]

@@bobthabuilda1525 You go gurll!!1 Destroy that MISOGYNIST S**TLORD!

[@Taz.K]

This is cool! I find it interesting seeing the IPA of the pronunciation. I never noticed Latin had a /y/ in the language

[@Taz.K]

@@rho9904 interesting

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@@Taz.K Misspelling is somewhat of a presentist judgement. You can find Vulgar Latin texts of the 700s using y "correctly". It was already /i/ in European Greek early on anyway.

[@Taz.K]

@@ABAlphaBeta ah I see…interesting

[@aantony2001]

@@ABAlphaBeta /y/ was the latest sound to merge to /i/ in Greek, and it is believed to have happened around the 10th century in most areas (possibly retained until modern times in Athenian).

[@ironinquisitor3656]

Who needs porn when I've got stuff like this!

[@aryyancarman705]

Gonna be fun

[@aryyancarman705]

Edit It was

[@angiesworld8038]

This would put you right to sleep. An asmr.

[@Noah-dg3ng]

You are a brilliant intelligent man and brilliant KZbin page. I love your content. You are amazing. Keep up the great work👍

[@slowmolife4289]

Remember: the "t" is dental and unaspirated

[@ArthurPPaiva]

Nunca havia entendido como funciona os vogais longas, mas na verdade é como nosso acento circoflexo e agudo, mostrando onde é a tônica. Pāstōrēs > pástôrês Málum > málum Malum > malúm

[@MedK001]

Não exatamente. Em português, as palavras tendem a ser paroxítonas (tônica na penúltima). Em latim, as palavras tendem a ser *proparoxítonas* (tônica na última). Se a vogal longa estiver na penúltima sílaba, aí sim que a sílaba tônica muda, parando na penúltima sílaba conforme marca a vogal longa. Mas se não tiver, então não muda a sílaba tônica. A vogal longa só deixa as vogais mais longas mesmo kk. Pāstōrēs, por exemplo, só é paroxítona por causa do O longo. Se fosse "pastores" ou "pāstorēs", aí a vogal tônica seria o primeiro A. Tanto em malum quanto em mālum, a primeira sílaba é a tônica. Espero ter ajudado. Eu recomendo bastante os vídeos do Polýmathy (é em inglês, mas este canal tbm e você tá aqui, então...)

[@Jilktube]

Wow, this is actually a great resource. Thanks.

[@ricchburglar]

Amonuss sussus

[@soapp405]

amogus

[@ricchburglar]

@@soapp405 amongus

[@aismcrock3151]

AMOGOS

[@LeonidasArg2021]

Vtubers in year 250: Ā

[@midnightgeminimia3554]

This sounds like Asmr but your speaking in different language so it's different language ASMR

[@AyeeeItsAlii]

I can't wait!

[@almazzagitov9799]

Speaking of Latin pronunciation, I am still not sure about my pronunciation of “Z”: my teacher told me that it was pronounced “dz”, whereas there were people who argued the pronunciation of this letter as “zd”. Could anyone help me and tell which one is correct?

[@ABAlphaBeta]

It's reconstructed as /zd/ in upper class 1st century BC Latin but then (or in other lects) becomes /z/.

[@lcu1976]

You should check polymathy youtube channel and look up the "pronunciation of greek Z". Very detailed. After all Z was a Greek letter imported in Latin because that sounds didn't exist in Latin.

[@Pandadude-eg9li]

Because the book didn't use the IPA, the original way I thought short was pronounced was like /ə/.

[@sami66666]

Well that’s how only English describes their “long and short” vowels.

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@@sami66666 Plenty of languages have unstressed ə though? And English has qualitative and quantitative pairs

[@sami66666]

@@ABAlphaBeta I’m talking about how English describes long e as /i/ and short e as /ε/

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@@sami66666 that's orthography, not actual phonemes

[@parmaxolotl]

English moment

[@whadadoin1962]

Don't try this, I accidentally summoned my in-laws ghosts

[@veganagev2062]

Beautiful

[@jakubolszewski8284]

Ausasus. xD

[@fernandoazeredo1388]

What kind of spell is this??

[@nikitahichoii482]

IPA

[@jakubolszewski8284]

Why /jakijunt/ non /jakiunt/? And why a as /ɑ/? Even that Vox Latina system of vowels doesn't hae that as I remember. And when I mention this: Why not Calabrese? Hahae. E: And why /i'jakiunt/? xD

[@ABAlphaBeta]

>Per Adams, diphtongs would actually be realised with a glide in the middle. [ija], [ejʊ] >It isn't [ɑ]. Times New Roman shows like that in italics. >Calabrese is fringe and far removed from the actual pronunciation - on a purely linguistic scale, and then there's the fact most appreciation of it is fuelled by a desire to make the pronunciation italianate (and Calabrese winging the article in the first place to be an edgy revisionist), which is at best anachronistic (all evidence points to the contrary, meaning Calabrese is essentially baseless and sourceless) and at worst only serves Italy's national myth (if Latin was pronounced exactly like modern Florentine Italian, that means Italians are epic Romans; fuelling the disgusting and unacademic attitude of "Forza Italia, immigrati fuori!"). A wide corpus of documents, starting in the 2nd century BC, show that e.g. i and e were close. Allen's Vox Latina itself admits qualitative differences, and the phonological chart he presents is accurate. >It's stressed on the antepenult. i.a.ci.unt is the syllable structure there.

[@jakubolszewski8284]

@@ABAlphaBeta Ok that ija for ia is even more natural to me, as polish speaker, but Calabrese system isn't even like Italians vowels. Italian has these [e] and so on, that system is like Sardinian, and change from [e] to [i] is less possible that from [i] to [e] as I know, maybe I'm wrong, but for me Allen's system is more like: Make Latin more like my language; cause of [ɪ] and [ʊ] which are not necessary, and are absent in all romance language as I know (however that absence may be irrelevant) xD.

[@ABAlphaBeta]

​@@jakubolszewski8284 They're a) not absent, b) wouldn't necessarily be reflected in Romance even if they were and c) are closer to e and o, explaining spelling choices and their development into [e] and [o]. What do you mean it isn't like Italian vowels? It's deliberately replicating Italian vowels and justifying it through Sardinian, but Sardinian doesn't even have [e] except allophonically. I'm not sure where you've seen anyone claim [e] became [i], but in any case it would be an easy phonological development to explain.

[@jakubolszewski8284]

@@ABAlphaBeta Hm, and why syllable structure is i.a.ci.unt? If it was like /jakijunt/ still antepenult would be stressed.

[@ABAlphaBeta]

​@@jakubolszewski8284 Because diphthongs are counted as two syllables. Yes, the antepenult would still be stressed, but that isn't the point at all. Stress doesn't dictate syllable structure. Plus the initial isn't a glide.

[@daikon711]

I think lacrima should sound lacreemaa

[@ABAlphaBeta]

Linguists are quite sure it didn't sound like that

[@semsot-the-fake]

No. There was most possibly the f-ing russian sound lmao So it was like /'lakrɨma:/

[@Eliza-yd7fi]

@@ABAlphaBeta How do they reconstruct anyway? Like if they are wrong, how wrong would they be?

[@ABAlphaBeta]

@@Eliza-yd7fi Slightly, usually, rather than anything majorly wrong.

[@aslakberg]

Where do you get the j sound in luteus from? It’s the first time I’ve heard anyone argue for that? Idem for uw instead of u:

[@ABAlphaBeta]

[uw] is just what happens when you try and say /u:/ with a consonant behind it, and is a more likely realisation per Adams. Adams also says that diphthongs have a glide. This is largely borne out by "spelling mistakes" (the term is a bit judgemental but it's essentially what's going on if using Cicero as a referential). So for instance, we know ue was actually realised [uwε] and in fact could even turn out as [owε] (because short u is similar to short and long o, unless you believe Calabrese). One example is CIL 03 p. 0962,02 . Likely written by a young child learning to write, they copied down their teacher's parable verbatim, and instead of puero, they heard povero. Elsewhere, povella is also attested as a legitimate variant of puella. Almost always, unless you're using a glottal stop in between, vowels in hiatus (lu.te.us) are actually going to glide (luteius). /w/ for back vowels, /j/ for front, with exceptions when it's actually a proper, legal diphthong that doesn't mechanically require a glide (e.g. ae, oe).

[@esti-od1mz]

@@ABAlphaBeta i find this comment really interesting. It could be, since in modern Italian, and also in my regional dialect, Sicilian, it happens to find words with an intrusive "v" between vowels, whereas latin only shows vowels: For example "Ruina" in latin, "Rovina" in modern italian, even if we can use "Ruina" to sound old-fashioned

[@saltrocklamp199]

@@ABAlphaBeta My Latin teacher tended to pronounce such words very precisely, almost performing a full glottal stop between vowels to place them in separate syllables, so as to avoid any impression of them being a dipthong. I'm not sure if that was founded in some scholarship about how Romans might have spoken, or a teaching tool specifically developed for the classroom, or some weird pseudo-classical thing from older times. I also don't recall if she pronounced "-eus" specifically this way. I love how something as mundane as children's spelling errors in school are able to help us reconstruct 2000 year old speech!