Pre Turbo Water Injection - Explained

Skip to the halfway point if you understand the basics of combustion. Or enjoy my non technical explanations. Then learn about why I inject H2O into my turbocharger's face.
Water injection kit by wannaspeed.com

[@godfreypoon5148]

Rob sure does have the knack for explaining things without getting unduly technical. The guy has talent.

[@bhearts77]

true that.

[@orlyrx7CanutoUltra7]

Honestly I watch when you build the fd 20b the fd 4rotor the 13bt Corvette the rotary formula car you bought and the white fc ..I like all your videos that I watch, I did not watch it all you got so many, like when you did your first burn out on the all wheel 4 rotor..when you race Travis pastrana, ...ect...is all good quality & detail explanation of your work, your failures and the successful content....thanks. is good to have a Rotary engineer like you....keep up the good work...I freaking love it.

[@TheCHIEFMONGO]

Saw water injection on a turbo video and got curious because I know about hydro locking but you explained it very well that when used properly, it’s not actually catastrophic like I originally thought it could be. It makes sense considering the higher engine rpm’s, not enough water (I now know it’s just very humid air) is making it into the cylinder to cause issues for the engine. Thanks for breaking it down Barney style.

[@bradenjnelson]

Just wanted to say, you're the man. Such a good explanation that anyone can understand. Thank you for taking the time to make this.

[@affatmatt08]

Coming from someone that doesn't know a lot about engine internals, this vid was super helpful Just picked up a new car last month and bought a Cobb AP for it. Now I know what all that data means! Thanks again Rob!

[@baribari600]

I have been considering adding water injection to my track car FD, so finding this throwback is nice...

[@WobbleKun]

very cool video! unlike most teachers, you gave the background info, which i think is the most important part in understanding anything! it's like you cant do calculus without learning addition! and then you showed the parts in real life so everything isnt just theory. you make a good teacher, keep up the good work. i love these lesson videos.

[@NDil97]

and youre saying," rob you sellout, you piece of shit" lmaoo you're too funny

[@Yan1nc]

Omg never thought of old video from rob to educate me on pre turbo wmi

[@TravisTellsTruths]

Excellent explanation. One more thing. Water by itself obviously increases compression as it doesn't compress. Then there's the super steam aspect.

[@NismoZTX]

That was well explained Rob. Love your down to earth mannerisms and interest in MORE POWAHHH!

[@lukethekanefan]

pre ignition is the mixture igniting before spark Detonation is where the end gas of the cylinder charge is ignited too quickly.

[@stang_daddy5980]

I am so glad to learn that I'm not the only one on the internet trying to correct people on this! it grinds my gears so hard how many smart technicians and even "tuners" say "pre-detonation"!

[@STREETCARCULTURE]

Rob, your confidence behind the camera has come along way. 👌🏾

[@RobDahm]

Haha considerably!

[@mk6matt]

Its like a fuel gangbang. I was laughing so hard at that lolol. You are awesome Rob

[@shamroc514]

I miss this rob. Blast from the past

[@thinkpad411]

Very cool, the cool thing about engine parts is that they are very strong, but break with sudden load/impacts. That's why valve clearance is so important and why cams are sloped, a slowly increasing load is fine, a sudden sharp load is bad, that's what detonation/knock is.

[@alexzander1839]

Have you considered that water can actually expand between the compressor outlet and the intake manifold and exert a positive pressure on the piston on the intake stroke on a pre-turbo set-up? So in effect the intake stroke also becomes a secondary power stroke. Smokey Yunick's Hot Vapor Engine had a carburetor before the turbo which heated and expanded the air-fuel mixture without igniting before shoving down the piston on the intake stroke.

[@huckilt]

Gasoline engines are designed to burn gasoline. They are not designed to “explode” or detonate it. There’s a huge difference. During normal operation, air and fuel is introduced into the combustion chamber, compressed so as to improve the force of expansion as it burns, then near top dead center, it is ignited by the ignition system. What is supposed to happen is that the fuel immediately adjacent to the spark plug is ignited, and as it burns it ignites the fuel surrounding it and so on outward from there very much like a wave of flame. It’s like making a circle of match heads on top of a table and dropping a lit match in the middle (or anywhere else in the circle). The flame will spread rapidly, but never instantly. Not my words got this info from a thumpertalk article on octane ratings but thought I'd share with you so I can better understand how gasoline ignites and burns if you know this sorry jus thought I'd mention after you were trying to find the right words to say about it.

[@JimGriffOne]

Compression causes the ambient heat contained in a large area to squish into a smaller area, therefore *focusing* the heat. It obviously becomes hotter. Take all of the heat in your room (293.15°K/m2) and put it into a volume of 1/10th the volume. It should increase in temperature by approximately 10x, (minus losses due to conduction and radiation in the time taken to compress it.)

[@sigmacentauri6191]

Water expands 2000 times in the combustion chamber. That creates power. Yes you can cut fuel consumption down with water injection or HHO.

[@TheBrawlmastah]

I like how many things I think about - like water droplets being introduced into an engine (yes I am fairly passionate about cars, and internal combustion engines, especially very innovative ones like the rotary :)) end up being addressed in one of your videos. Keep up the good work.

[@ValentinTeodorTamas]

THE FORCE IS WITH YOU.

[@campaspe810]

I think we should be friends. Have bbq's and beer and high fives.

[@MrROTD]

I have water injection on a NA car, it increased the mileage a little and runs better on shit gas

[@SoulfulSolid6]

did you tune it for it and what was the water rate?

[@ScottScharfenberg]

I believe the word for the controlled burning of a fuel is deflagration. I could be wrong though

[@Wafflebrah21]

Billy madison reference, lovin' it dude. Lol. Get those dam mazda's running Rob!

[@a2dc2]

Rob, what made you choose Pre Turbo Water Injection vs a water/injection unit made by AEM ? Whould you care to make a video explaining the pros and cons between the two units? thanks

[@Wannaspeed]

Fuel gang bangs are the best lol

[@1hateeverything]

If the water container is being feed air from the same line that goes to the nozzle, how is it staying pressurized? Is the nozzle acting as a restrictor and most of the pressure goes to the container?

[@JFSX]

Minnesota-Eh? Thanks Rob.... Thats Canada eh! That was a fun video, course last time I put my finger on the end of the Rx7 it was white. Seems like a fun thing to attempt to install after I fix the whole fuel regulation issue. The list never ceases....

[@athikerguy4life]

Good video. Been wondering about water injection for awhile.

[@physicsudel2013]

just a couple notes for u from a physicist. water injection really does just one thing, It lowers the air temp through "heat of vaporization". colder air is easier to compress for both the engine and the turbo. The turbo then can compress more air and the engine gets a boost in heat injection headroom. The P-V cycle will have a larger area due to extra heat injection (fuel). in short, the greater the difference between the initial and finial energy of the air are..... the more power u will have

[@TheBrawlmastah]

I have started to watch many more of your videos, I like the channel. This comes from conversations with my dad a couple years back... You mentioned in the video that a main purpose of the water is to absorb the heat from combustion and to clean engine components. I thought that there could be an added effect, especially when water droplets are introduced into the engine. The heat from the combustion will turn the liquid water into water vapour, which is much much less dense.

[@CalMUK91]

This is such a good video. Really enjoyed it.

[@chelseafan4life09]

Why did you place the water tank in the engine bay? Im curious to know because water retains lots of energy. Does this hinder the system in anyway?

[@Ryanheet]

Rob, have you been to the U of Ms Aerospace building? They have really cool engines there! A friend of mine is there and he built a transparent engine where you can actually watch the combustion on a high speed camera. And that engine you were talking about that ignites with only compression is called a homogeneous charge compression ignition engine (HCCI). They are really efficient on the highway, and they will probably be used on the new cars coming out. Excellent summary btw :)

[@tamersir22]

You may have covered this but i have a more specific question. When you are placing the injection of this Pre turbo do you still get the same cleaning benefits on the valves pistons etc? I ask this because there is little oil on the turbo piping and intercooler system..

[@sidodorifto]

dude sick backround love it!

[@djanthony101]

GREAT VID!!!! so its not an explosion ;) could you give me aome advise... i have a toyota celica gt with a 1zz-fe 143hp engine witch is n/a stock i turbocharged it with a t25/t28 turbo running 7psi of boost would you recommend a water injection for this setup? greatz from the Netherlands!!

[@V8sareslow1]

Are you still using this system? If not, just wondering what the reason was for ditching it. Thanks!

[@KisteFoder]

This has nothing to do with water injection, but my lady friend was leering over me at the studio while I was supposed to be doing work and said "That guy was on the The Bachelorette".

[@yoancarlove7383]

The combustion can be called an explosion. But unlike high-explosives, it doesn't chemically explode but burns in controlled manner where the gas expansion are used. I think the fact that it burns and the gases expand is enough to call it an explosion. Off course everybody should say combustion because it's the proper term because more often then not, explosions are "uncontrolled".

[@boosteroids]

So you just pour the water to the tank,and spray directly into the throttle body through air filter before the turbo? What is the concentrate? Just water or mixture with methanol?

[@micahakasuperman7]

Easy to understand bro... I like!

[@thinkpad411]

Water injection is great for N/A too, but fuel and ignition is much more critical to get right to make power from it.

[@kedaotuning]

why u dont install the nozle close to the trotle body?

[@NismoSaab]

Freaking rob! Why you so good at explaining things?? Amazing video though great job on it and hey does the lambo have a cat?

[@labidus74]

just a stupid idea, with non-turbo, using a fogger and put the mist produced by this directly in PCV, is a good idea?

[@Jarmezrocks]

Man how things have changed. Hey Rob have you ever come back and checked out some of your old clips? Haha how much things have changed eh? Question is..... Do you still believe in WI or are you down on the E85 now?

[@tuononno92]

Greeeat video. You only need some graphic animations for the first part and then you'll be a perfect teacher

[@turtlemann14]

you forgot about steam, water expands way more than air, thus giving you more torque and more pressure you drive the turbine all while increasing efficiency because heat is staying in the cylinder vs absorbing into the head and cylinders.

[@TobiasKornmayer]

Hey Rob, ever tried water injection between engine exhaust and turbo turbine to get more volume to boost from?

[@TravisTellsTruths]

Wooow, bro

[@240sxtwintubro]

very nice i have a setup in the works on my 240sx and what two step system do you have for your rx7 looking for a new one i have the msd one 2nd gen the al6 its cool but i want to keep my turbo in good shape for years to come and ever think about running evans waterless coolant ? great vid keep them up

[@TheBrawlmastah]

The water would expand from this change in phase-and create more pressure inside the cylinders, resulting in more force on the pistons. Im not sure if this effect is actually taking place, since it may be water vapour entering the engine in the first place. I will have to look into this a little bit further-and the heat the water absorbs is obviously crucial, but this seems to be a potential area to achieve more power in addition to running higher turbo pressures.

[@FlaviaPitariu]

Love how you have a rotary in the background. Where did you get the spare from? Methanol/water mix is really good for rotary

[@BatchCam]

i like the water injection on ur rx7 tho if ur trying to cool things having a cold air box instead of a pod filter in front of the radiator might help.... good explanation tho

[@covingtonrace1]

I wouldn't spray it into the turbo because you could get cavitation, it will eat your blades up

[@TeamEpsilonRacing]

is that why ppl do seafoam cleaning too? because it cleans out carbon?

[@zeforte2222]

lol, "fuel gangbang"

[@pbkrbhamidipati]

can water be injected in a normal aspirated carburettor petrol engine?

[@fedjadrndarski5606]

Pre turbo WMI is not good idea because of compressor damage. Efficiency of turbocharger doesn't depend only on heat. There is lot more parameters, A/R, compressor wheel design, dimensions, turbine design and dimensions...

[@15buggie]

Awesome video! Keep up the awesome videos. I love the 3 rotor you have. Do you still have your boosted 13b?

[@mpereztwomx]

I had read this water thing but with a 6 stroke engine, one stoke for putting the water in and another for taking the steam out. But this is not the case, right?

[@boosted0079]

I'm trying to research and find out how well this particular method of water injection cooling would work on a supercharged setup. M90 on a GM 3800 series 2 without an intercooler (because GM was the only idiots that made a supercharged engine without an intercooler). I'm possibly looking at going with a smaller pulley for more boost, but I want to cool the charge, and my project will not allow clearance for an aftermarket sandwich intercooler. I'm considering water methanol, but would there still be an advantage to just water injection vs without anything? Would the gains or efficiency be worth it?

[@lutherblissett9070]

yes straight water with a smaller pulley will work well

[@magna59]

Rob,nice piece.Everything has it's potential down side,adding water/moisture to the combustion chamber may increase BHP etc,but are you not potentially just generating a steam cleaning effect,that does help remove carbon build up,but also removes oil/lubricant from the walls of the cylinder&add additional water to the sump oil (normal burning of hydro carbon produces steam/water).In LPG/propane fueled vehicles,oilers are added improving up cylinder lub, May be for this application also?

[@MrWilburlandaverde]

If you inject Water/Meth before the turbo will it also decrease turbo temps and clean it? I assume that the cooling would be better than throttle body injection.

[@dylan4972]

+Wilbur Landaverde There are different opinions, if before the turbo then by the time it gets to the intake manifold it has lost most of its cooling effect along the way, so while the turbo is cooler the intake temp isn't greatly decreased also I have had friends with water puddling in the inter-cooler or any low bends from pre-turbo setups. I don't believe it cleans the turbo greatly as the turbo is only taking in filtered clean air. Direct port injection is the best or in the throttle body... the methanol and water have a cooling effect and can help decrease the exhaust temp resulting in a less 'hot' turbo.

[@lethaldriver]

water injection pre-turbo.......................won't the fine water mist/droplets damage the impeller spinning at 100,000/200,000 rpm?

[@GuhbsBeats]

hahahaha that cracked me up

[@HiTechDiver]

Wow, how did he manage 500k viewers? They must have thought he was also going to be discussing meth/water injection, and wanted to know what those drugs were doing to their brains.

[@s550andrew]

Watching this high as fuck. Thanks for the laughs haha

[@GuhbsBeats]

I love your vids man thanks a lot.

[@kbaugti2839]

i was thinking of running water methanol right after my throttle body (to avoid the methanol from eating awayat the tb)so whats your take on post turbo water inj? thanks

[@jkk20]

power is derived from the expansion of gasses. it has nothing to do with the differential on cold air going in.. temperature only affects how dense the oxygen,hydrogen and what not gasses that are in the atmosphere. colder usualy means more per square inch. but it always depends on how efficient the combustion cycle to produce that power. and the mechanical link between the engine end the driving wheel.

[@sirfancy7645]

now do u have any problems running it this way vs on the tb with water collecting in the intercooler pipping?

[@bartvanriel6767]

so it does pretty much the same as raising the octane level, question is: does it help make power on a tuned naturally aspirated engine?

[@ceikalimited177]

+Bart Van Riel Only if you raise compression of the pistons or advance timing. Octane level of water is infinite as it doesn't burn but you can't add past certain points. But you can keep adding methanol to the mix to raise octane further and/or switch to e85 which has most of the advantage of WI but all day long and reliably.

[@bartvanriel6767]

CEIKA Limited so if you build an engine with a 25 to 1 compression ratio and add water you could pull it of without knock right?

[@ceikalimited177]

25:1? You are talking diesel i assume. I will not be able to help much with diesel i don't know what is safe but i know that it has been very popular amongst diesels and truckers with massive turbo. If you build the engine around water injection past the knock limit it is a bit of a time bomb to be honest.

[@bartvanriel6767]

CEIKA Limited no I just said some crazy high compression ratio but about what do you think the limit is?

[@SI0AX]

It's the same for N/A and turbo gasoline cars. The only difference is that turbo cars benefit more thus more gain but then again turbocharged engines always have more gains in just about every mod that can also be done to N/A. Example is changing out just the intake and exhaust + tuning will provide sometimes more that 60HP gain to the wheels vs 25WHP to N/A car.

[@TimMc333]

great video, as always.

[@FELiPES101]

So water injection is in addition to the turbo system and is not required?

[@bohnerbob]

I know air with a high relitive humidity is less dense than dry air with the same temperature. water vapor is less dense as it is oxygen and hydrogen. That being said wouldnt spraying water into the turbo heat, then vaporize, thus lowering the density of the air charge? The answer is yes, and it kills engine performance. They developed watermeth in ww2 aircraft that injected the mix directly in the carb when the A/F mix was at max lean. It prevented detonation and increased boost.

[@LG396]

I know what you're saying even if your wording is not correct quite a bit. For example compressing doesn't make it more efficient, and it's not the same amount of particles, it means you fit more of them in the same space. But we get it, and have these goofs make this video even funnier :)

[@yoancarlove7383]

You statement is wrong when I say that: You take an engine and reduce the volume of the combustion chamber with the heads only. For example go from a 26cc combustion chamber cylinder head to a 16cc. You increased compression and it is more efficient because you reduced the displacement and still makes more power. This is according to the fact that you use both the same fuels and timing without detonation.

[@junpakaplog69]

Is this applicable to turbo diesel engine?

[@king.dannyman]

Where can you buy this kit? ***** can you share the link to your friends store!?

[@B0untyHunt3r2113]

the word your looking for at 15:20- 15:27 is called atomization

[@Jesse22H]

Rob, you are awesome haha

[@globalteamwork4light]

thanks for explaining this topic. dont try to be funny, just stick to the facts.

[@jakesta717]

The word you're looking for in the beginning is "deflagration".

[@ForestTDI]

Is there any posibility of cavitation caused by pre-turbo injection?

[@LoneSailor88]

Yo Rob, your vids are great but there is something bothering me about your back drop. That rotar and housing are all messed up. The apex seals and the housing must make contact at all time otherwise your car starts shaking and you end up on the side of the road with your hood up trying to figure out why there was an earthquake and no one seems concerned.

[@ultimatecleveland]

@Rob Dahm Can you run a safe tune on your engine and then add water injection and increase power?

[@RIPPERTON]

My intercooler gets up to 130C so theres my water already turned to steam before it gets to the engine.

[@MKNAOMIII]

every time i hear him speak he sounds like he's trying too hard to talk about a topic he does't fully understand.

[@daesyoung]

Cvristian .DvAid but thas how a feeling of understandment for any creative new endeavor form may function alike how did a bridge port was concieved? by anyone general it looks like it make sense if u seen tha most professional ports done with angles in n out like cheese but most ports arent. yet it still braps, tha rotary has math applied but has to many variables of consequence even for its considered simple design, that no man can account for all in its efficiency. othrwise whr dem rx9s at... cant wait.

[@stephenmwyatt2]

100% lost , such as "compression ignition"

[@EstrellasNEUMI]

@NPC #303 water does too ;)

[@WarnerBosss]

Emmmm... when you inject water-meth before turbo, you will compress less air, you should note that. And one more thing why I do not use it anymore - cavitation factor and corrossion. Compress wheel on turbo will die much faster than it should. I've ruined 2 turbo cartridges before understand what's wrong. Water mist should be very, very good dispensed to prevent cavitation and compressor wheel damage on high rpm and no any of water-meth system with the smallest injectors can not give such mist. One of tech solution that can be provided it is ultrasonic mist dispenser but it consume big amount of electric power that make such solution useless cuz this power will take from your generator and it will still your engine power. But if you have amount of budget to overhaul your turbo more often than pre-turbo injection is not bad at all

[@AswinKarthick]

is it suitable for Diesel engine car???????

[@5FaLlEn5]

I have water/meth injection and never though of plumbing it pre turbo but i do have 2 of them may have to try it out. and definitive evidence on the pre turbo set up

[@TheBIGJake111]

so my mother is looking at buying me a porsche boxster over the summer (im 15) but the one thing that is making her want to get me an s2000 instead is that the boxster takes premium fuel..... would it be okay to run on normal fuel with premium every third fill up or so btw i live in a low altitude area since i do believe that altitude has a play in things

[@soggybottomboys2792]

I have a smart and stupid idea but it might work 😬 take diesel injectors put them in the intake 1 for each cylinder and use a p pump or a smaller pump lol to pressurize the water/methanol

[@kingbiggz86]

Are there any downsides or dangers to running a water meth kit, it seems like it's too good to be true

[@bobjoe-bv2vc]

Water/steam isn't air, thus it displaces oxygen in the intake stream. If you can't increase boost (turbo not big enough), then it can hurt performance. It allows you to modify the tune/setup for more power.

[@SuffolkProbatedProperties]

bob joe water contains more oxygen (1 hydrogen, 2 oxygen) by volume than air which is over 80% nitrogen and carbon, and I believe 14% oxygen. However in air it's "free" oxygen. But without more boost, you can advance timing, create more pressure, and cool the intake charge which brings more air into the engine.

[@bobjoe-bv2vc]

The oxygen in water is so tightly bound, that it plays no chemical role in combustion. Thus steam only serves to dilute the charge. The energy absorbed by evaporation of liquid water can cool cylinder temps enough to advance timing, but can also quench the fire and reduce cylinder pressure. I understand the advantages of water injection, the OP asked for any downsides to it's use. PS: Thanks for the flash back (2 years)

[@stephenmwyatt2]

you clearly do not understand the ratio of air to fuel? what are the exact units? 14.7 what and 1 what?

[@3dw3dw]

Dude, do drugs much? The term you are looking for is detonation. This occurs when the fuel and oxygen mixture reaches a pressure and temperature greater than the flashpoint of the fuel. 9:1 is considered a low compression ratio. 13:1 is high compression. When you compress the air you pack more air in the cylinder. It is not only higher pressure, there really is more air in there. Air is 78 % nitrogen and 20.5% oxygen. It is the presence of additional oxygen in the combustion chamber that provokes us to inject more fuel producing higher cylinder pressures upon ignition. You are almost right in every statement and the poor delivery of the info along with the improper nomenclature seems to be preventing you from effectively communicating you message. Perhaps if you were to remake the video with a pre-written script and a little less cocaine you could be more easily understood.

[@HiTechDiver]

Agreed. BTW 78.** % nitrogen, 20.95% Oxygen, and approx. 1% other gasses. In Navy diving, we just use 79/21 since the other gasses are also inert.

[@Ts68mo]

I believe, you meant to say : PRE-DETONATION !?

[@satyanandansivanesan6333]

Bring back water injection