WHO'S COOLER? WATER METH vs INTERCOOLER

[@B0RN2RACE100]

This channel deserves 10 times the views. Just commenting for the algorithms

[@btchhopperou812]

SO true man...YT really sucks a big fat one nowadays with its AI garbage algorithms

[@pr0n5tar]

Sucky

[@davidreed6070]

Imagine Richard And a couple buddies building a motor and car on a weekly TV show and racing on the weekends. Great, yeah.

[@lamontwaters510]

Wish you had some info for a intercooler and water meth injection which is what most people are using in reality.

[@lamontwaters510]

Wish you had some info for a intercooler and water meth injection which is what most people are using in reality.

[@robertkb64]

The real reason to use water/meth injection is to prevent knock, not anything else. The most illustrative use of w/m injection was seen in WW2 combat aircraft, both US and German (the Japanese only used it very little). When looking for power what matters isn’t boost at all, but air mass. Colder air has more air mass, so will make more power with less pressure (assuming the fuel ratio stays the same), which is how an intercooler works. This setup used a constant pressure gate, so for the intercooler made more power, but increased knock probability. Water and methanol are both knock inhibitors on their own, so in addition to lowering the temperature they also prevent knock. This means that when running w/m to gain the most power you need to use more aggressive timing, or increase boost even more. All things being equal, you can run more timing and higher pressure using w/m than you can with an intercooler - but you can do a lot more using both, as an intercooler is even better at reducing temperature, it just doesn’t do anything for knock (other than heat induced knock, of course). The best easy setup is to use as large of an intercooler as you can fit and increase boost pressure until you either get the power you want or become knock limited using whatever fuel you have available (pump gas for a daily driver, of course), then only add w/m if you need more power after becoming knock limited - which should add another 20%+ beyond where you were.

[@KillJD]

What an excellent and factual comment! I'm going to running water meth on my 2J E46 build and I'm excited. It's going to be pump and wmi, plus flex fuel!

[@mikeruthen6236]

Actually with water meth you can add far more boost than what you can on intercooled engine using 93 oct safely and gain bunch hp on top.

[@robertkb64]

@@mikeruthen6236 that’s what I said, just with a historical example and explanation of why that’s the case :) Lower temp = less heat induced knock Higher octane. = more knock resistance Higher pressure @ constant temperature = high mass air flow Higher mass air flow + more fuel = power So if you really want to go crazy, find some 150 octane gas, run 40 degrees of advanced timing, and 100 inches of water from your turbo, plus w/m injection (fyi - these are real-ish WW2 figures - we weren’t that aggressive with timing, it were using 150 octane aviation fuel by 1944 , but with modern metallurgy we can do what they couldn’t)

[@3800TURBO]

When you introduce Alcohol you change the burn rate and you have to change timing. No one would leave factory timing if you switched over to Methanol completely. There was much more in the meth kit.

[@kouzman]

You read my mind. Actually I am surprised that it didn't lose power. Not sure how it works on a v8 but day on an intercooled twin turbo porsche 911, power using the same gasoline, methanol injection and tuned for it can increase horsepower close to 100 hp. Spraying before the throttle body. Great analysis but fairly incomplete test IMO. We ought to see timing and of course afr. Guaranteed with the water/meth the car was running pig rich!

[@thud93091]

@@kouzman he was using it for cooling only.

[@kouzman]

@@thud93091 but even then you need to review the timing and afr even just a tiny bit. The spray is a whole different ballgame since it will change detonation tolerances completely. It would be great if repeated the test but checking the tuning for it.

[@WASTED__POTENTIAL]

This is what I came to say. Meth allows more boost and/or timing.

[@ShawnGilbert1967]

@@thud93091 well he had to be adjusting the timing as well or the intercooler test would have shown no increase in power.. The meth did its job...I use 2 nozzles well back from the tb at different angles hoping to get some good mixing, even if overall charge temp is lost to some preheating

[@ghosttheoremproductions5469]

WMI nozzles need to be installed on the outside of a 45-90 degree elbow at least 12" from the TB for good distribution. Those BS throttle body swirl thingies actually help. - NEVER put a WMI nozzle before the turbo. It doesn't matter that it's a liquid and the droplets are incredibly tiny, you are throwing mass into blades spinning at hundreds of thousands of RPMs and it does a lot more damage than you'd think.

[@bentheguru4986]

I couldn't have said it better. Spraying in-front of the compressor wheel (turbo or centrifigul SC) is a fail in the making.

[@erikryan9204]

pretty sure it was just an action shot lol

[@dylanbachora8939]

Good thing volvo tested your theory here. "In extensive testing done by Volvo in the 1980’s on pre-turbo injection, they found that 80,000 to 100,000 miles of pre-turbo injection started to wear the compressor wheel" meaning the wear is so minimal that it only makes a difference after 80-100k miles. That's longer than most people with WMI will ever expect to get out of their turbos. You ignore how fine the mist really is. It's not like a water plane getting worn propellers.

[@KaosProject21]

​@@bentheguru4986 draw through carb setups have entered the chat... 🙄

[@bentheguru4986]

@@KaosProject21 Old school manifold bangers.

[@BIGGELATO]

[ SUMMARY ] [NO IC/WM 2:28] 651HP/587TQ @173F' degrees 8:10 @11.5 psi [WITH IC 6:35] 729HP/637TQ @85F' degrees 10:12 @13.8 psi (IC made more power) [WITH WM] 715HP/575TQ @86F' degrees 9:40 @14.8 psi (WM made more power) 12:02 for boost graph 13:00 for power graph Conclusion: (Richard's opinion 15:01) IC +50HP/50TQ@mid-range (view @ 13:00) P.s. WM vs IC = depends on your application. WM best for big turbo, high rpm peak power. WM may be better for peak power AND... race fuel *WM best for high octane tunes. (important)* WM not cooling evenly in all cylinders @15:42 Cause; long runners. Consider shorter runners or multi-port injections, or different intake manifold. You'll get better cooling with IC overall. Tried all tests but one, injecting directly in the turbo was not tested. 16:33 Richard's takeaway @ 17:16 p.s. If you're considering E85 tune, forget WM. Like I said, WM works best for high-octane tunes. 91 to race fuel. IC best for mid-range, most applications... "IC" = Intercooler "WM" = Water/Meth

[@306familyfarm]

I would like to see egts for each run.

[@donmerrigan2362]

The correct answer is obvious. Run both an intercooler and water/meth injection.

[@Alfaduk]

The fact of the matter is, water or water/methanol injection displaces air. Even if you could somehow fully evaporate it, the water/WM displaces air. The air is cooler, but there's not actually more air molecules in the same volume. But the intercooler removes heat from the air charge without putting anything into the air. If you had a hugely efficient intercooler, 1 that could remove enormous amounts of heat energy but still flowed well, on a supercharged engine, the air would become so dense that boost pressure after the intercooler, would drop. Cold dry air is more conducive to making power than cold damp air. But(!) that water is able to absorb a lot of heat energy when it evaporates. And it can really only do that in a really, REALLY hot environment! There just isn't enough time to evaporate a reasonable amount of water in a relatively cool environment like the inlet plumbing and manifold. But inside the cylinder, even on the induction stroke, in the coolest parts of the cylinder/combustion chamber areas, the heat is much, MUCH higher than the inlet manifold. It's inside the cylinder where the water can evaporate, absorb a lot of heat energy and in the process, lower the combustion chamber temperatures and effectively increase the knock limit of the fuel being run. Then you can take advantage of this in tuning. Any excess fuel that is added to try and quench knock, could be reduced. And timing advance that was otherwise removed to keep knock under control, could be reintroduced. That is where the real power from water/WM injection comes from.

[@moisesr7840]

Keep in mind the octain ratings, timing and knock all play a role in the real-world. Which were not taking in consideration in here, though you did touch on it, cause the test was Intercooler vs Water-Meth. I rarely watch 15 minute long videos, this one is a must to watch!

[@turbotysen]

Do a video on different sized charge pipes (2.25” ,2.5” and 3”) for turbo combinations and spool up differences, potential boost creep issues with using the smaller pipes with smaller wastegate vs it working fine with the bigger pipes!

[@1999ekk24]

Bigger pipes spool earlier and the shorter the pipes the better the spool again .bigger pipes also create lower exhaust temperatures because they need less boost to make the same power. I tested 2,2.5,3” on a 300hp sr20 on 16-18 psi depending on the pipes size. If 3 inch is better on 300hp it’s going to be better on everything above it . My next test will be 3 vs 3.5 vs 4.

[@1999ekk24]

The test was also done with 2m of piping with only 2 90degree couplers on the intercooler so the more bends in any system will make the gains of going bigger pipes even greater

[@grumpysteelman]

Matthew Barron - No. 300hp at > 1bar is 350cfm+. The size difference and length between 2 and even 4 inch pipes would be so small that you wouldn’t be able to measure it at that hp level especially since a 2 inch pipe can support over 500cfm. If anything, the smaller cross section would spool infinitesimally faster, as it wouldn’t take as many microseconds to pressurize the tube before the motor - because that’s how that would have to work. Besides bigger pipes would have diminishing returns on your application because the TB is so small - a 3”+TB on an SR20 would be hilarious - and you can’t pretend like big pipes with a smaller TB inline could pay off. I’m sure that you don’t have dyno charts, videos, or pictures of this experiment - prove me wrong.

[@1999ekk24]

Eric Simpson you’re the problem ! After all my internet searching on the topic I was under the same conclusion as yourself except I do not just accept it as facts. I did the test at my mechanic/tuner at the time and the results were as I said, I later Changed mechanic/tuner and tested again just to verify what i had already seen but we also took data of pre and post intercooler pressures, temperatures and also exhaust gas temperatures all on the same day with in 4 hours. If you had a different approach and just asked to see my results instead of telling me I am wrong when you haven’t even tested it yourself I would of gladly shared but you can continue believing what you assume to be correct with out real world testing. Enjoy

[@jridenour31]

​@1999ekk24 Your claim is contradicting itself. Larger diameter has a higher volume. Shorter pipes have a lower volume. Lowering volume one way and increasing it another way aren't both going to improve spool.

[@michaelgunning347]

Location of the meth injector , I’d still say injector to the runners , will not give enough time to affect density , no you need to redo the test , from the rotary engine which are pigs for heat , the Meath only showed any gain after 14 psi and needed to be over 18psi to show gains Wurth the cost , and these were intercooler as well

[@malcolmwatson7609]

During WW II some German aircraft used water/meth injection. It didn't work, not enough time for heat transfer to air. From Frank Walker on water injection..... German engineers tried water injection (Wassereinspritzung) on their gasoline engines, but with limited success. Germans, who were very good at building high- precision pumps, had perfected direct fuel injection for their large aircraft engines. German engineers injected water directly into the cylinders as well. Since the water did not have time to evaporate and cool the induction air, the large cylinder inlet temperature reduction was not achieved. Frank learned of this while reviewing a report on a captured German aircraft engine.

[@Turbo_Todd]

Richard, after reading the first 80 or so comments, it is obvious that people are not watching/ listening to the entire video. You said yourself that the long runner dry intake was not good for water/ meth and that was most likely the power difference. You mentioned a single plane or hi-ram setup would be better for water/ meth. You also said more testing is needed! Nice video.

[@richardholdener1727]

I need to put more info in the beginning

[@michaelangelo8001]

@@richardholdener1727 There will always be idiots. You can't fix stupid...

[@leebrady6326]

I would like to see the water meth before the turbo and with the inter cooler, also before the turbo.. Even so very good information for turbo and intake temps to keep in mind..

[@richardholdener1727]

you don't want wm before the intercooler

[@bcbloc02]

If you have the space and the weight won't kill you I would always prefer the intercooler over any other method. I have pulled 450+deg of intake temp out before with water injection but nothing is worse than having the water fail to come on for some reason and blowing your pistons out the tail pipe. :-(

[@superkillr]

Fact. That is the chief downside of liquid. Sensors, pump, nozzles.

[@adamarndt7617]

Great conclusion. Agree 100%. Water meth is appropriate for an intake that was designed for wet flow (single plane is ideal); if running an intake designed for dry flow, find a way to fit an intercooler.

[@garybegay3028]

Make test with non intercooler with E85 . Also E85 as a cooler with E85 coming from fuel injection.

[@lordhumungous7908]

I first read about water/meth injection over twenty years ago. Clearly, the charge air is being cooled, but I remember them saying that the cooling effect happens in the combustion chamber during the compression stroke where the water completely evaporates. I guess their is no practical way to measure this. Great video! Thanks.

[@hoonaticbloggs5402]

I had a 1993 Mitsubishi evo1 with a manual water spray onto the air to air inter cooler. On a long uphill run in Germany it was pulling 135 on the clock, I sprayed the cooler and it hit pushed 140 on the limiter. My practical proof cooler charge works.

[@waynebeaver4096]

This channel is a godsend for anyone scratching their heads on where to begin.

[@RJHMcGonigal]

Wouldn’t the true advantage of the water-meth injection be that it would allow you to run higher boost (and/or timing) while avoiding detonation? It makes sense that there was not much power gain from WM injection because even though you’ve cooled the intake charge, you’ve added H2O to the mix resulting in a slower combustion speed (similar to high octane gas). I understand that this test was just a direct comparison, but if the same 2 combinations were run with optimized (and maximized) boost/timing/AFR then surely the WM combo would come out leaps and bounds ahead of the IC combo(?) Love your vids Richard, keep it up!

[@richardholdener1727]

IC is better than WM

[@Nate-oh1wg]

I’ve blown my car up 2 times (#7, #8 pistons) running only w/m. Now I’m water to air with water meth and a single plane. Learned my lesson.

[@crw3673]

I guess you don't get equal distribution of the water/methanol, specially at the rear of the engine. Good thing to know.

[@champspec]

Was this an LS engine? Where was your nozzle? Let me guess spraying directly into the manifold, in front of the TB... What manifold were you running and how much power were you making?

[@MauricesExoticPets]

Individual port injected water methanol + air to water intercooling maybe.

[@carazo321]

My setup is IC DP w/m injection. It’s a 108whp difference

[@zzzzzsleeping]

I have a small air to air intercooler - then I supplemented with a small jet methanol water injection and gives me dramatic air change.

[@dirtyfax]

3 year old video but I'm just seeing it. I'm on Saturn Sky/Solstice forums where everyone is trying to get their cars as close to the 400hp reliably limit of the stock internals. Max power on the cheap is the goal. Stock turbo's with a larger compressor wheel, larger charge pipes, larger downpipe, and a bigger intercooler is the combination. Some run E85/E47 tunes to get a little more. I was debating keeping the stock intercooler and running water/meth since i can't get E85 in my area. After this video I think i'll just go with the bigger intercooler instead of messing with adding wiper fluid to my intake. I won't have to worry about the pump going out and burning up my engine. Good information in your video.

[@charliedee9276]

My old Saab 900 spg I ran h2o/meth injection through the individual runners, easy to do with the layed down engine design, ran it with the factory air to air intercooler. Allowed quite a bit more boost before the APC detected knock and dialed it back.

[@richardholdener1727]

those were cool

[@futten3230]

would be good to see the same thing done with blow thru carb setup

[@VTLIFE-so4dc]

It's 2020, bro. Should Richard run a points distributor, too?

[@otm646]

Who is trying to run a turbo and a carburetor, EFI stand alone is $1,000, much less if you go with factory components.

[@kar6994]

@@VTLIFE-so4dc sure, why not if that's what you have.

[@kar6994]

@@otm646 a lot of guys still running carb.not saying it's better but it's what I have.

[@roykrossin8343]

I’m building a 5.8 blow thru , air to water or just air intercooler is my question !

[@RandBLSWorld]

Thanks Richard ! You me help with separating the flysh*t from the pepper when it comes to engine info !

[@SloppyMechanics]

I pushed every button

[@richardholdener1727]

points for you

[@garymorel1882]

@@richardholdener1727 mr. Richard I noticed a lot of people are saying that you should’ve bumped up the timing on the meth injection Because of the density and the higher octane rating of the meth My question is have you tried this I’m just curious about the results and if it did make up the difference to compare it with the inner cooler anyway thanks for everything I know this video is old but we still watch

[@gmcnelly2468]

You know, Banks says it is all about charge"density". The calculation is a little complex, but no longer uses boost pressure. May want to get his take on the matter.

[@richardholdener1727]

I know Gale and understand Charge Density-this is not that

[@gmcnelly2468]

@@richardholdener1727 Richard: no offense intended by my earlier response.

[@deegan727]

Every time I’m wondering about anything cam,turbo,supercharger,nitrous,E85,meth etc. etc. Richard done tests on it. Seriously Richard you save a lot of people a lot of time and money. Thanks.

[@richardholdener1727]

WE R ALL CAR GUYS (AND GALS)-WE HAVE THE SAME QUESTIONS

[@deegan727]

@@richardholdener1727 Your doing a great job answering them all, and we appreciate it.

[@ZergZfTw]

You should try pre turbo methanol injection, Cosworth used pre turbo methanol injection on the XB Champ car engine in the 90's, so there has to be something to it.

[@aaronnoyb]

On a big budget race car, go for it. On a budget, you don't want the erosion that the water or methanol, droplets will cause. The better the atomizer nozzle works, the less erosion will be seen.

[@ZergZfTw]

@@aaronnoyb True, it's probably not the best choice for road course or endurance racing, but for a street/strip car or drag car that will see relatively little time in heavy boost I don't think it would be to much of a concern. Besides a low budget build with a junk yard ls and eBay turbo isn't going to have a infinite life anyway. I would bet a cast piston letting go would kill a turbo long before the methanol damaged the compressor.

[@ZergZfTw]

@@bigboreracing356 Good point. Compressor wheels aren't that expensive to replace.

[@farinafranqui]

Water going from liquid to gas increases in volume. This volume contributed to the boost pressure displacing the air and lower power output. This is why you see a major A/F change that is not all from the methanol...its from air displacement also.

[@chrisdragosh8034]

Individual port water methanol ejection would have actually given you even lower power output. The problem is in your tune, the water vapor slowed the combustion process, adding timing would have produced the same results as the intercooler.

[@richardholdener1727]

incorrect

[@drewlarson65]

This boost creep is from non-linear gas expansion mostly from the adiabatic effects of the inert gasses i.e. nitrogen acting as a pumping fluid that isn't participating in the combustion process. Air is mostly nitrogen and no one seems to remember that

[@dilsher12]

I would like to see if a single plane intake manifold helps with better distribution

[@troyclaerhout3005]

Same here, I'm running a Victor jr. With an elbow on my ls in my 32 pickup build. I'd like to mount the turbo in the grill shell w/o intercooler and run meth I'd bet the distribution would be a lot better and the turbo would have zero restriction of fresh air. I'm thinking single nozzle at the wheel.

[@ericmaysonet3135]

I wouldn't put it in front of the turbo, but I would try moving it further away from the throttle body.

[@seancramer1096]

I'm inserted to see what kind of numbers you would have while running both

[@highrzr]

Nice info. I especially appreciated the comment about the intake manifold was designed to flow air only. That point is sometimes overlooked by people.

[@kar6994]

Snow now makes an individual runner kit,you can plumb your nozzles whevever you want them.they make universal kits as well as application specific kits.lots of options. I also am waiting to see the results of your pre compressor iat test.

[@mxguy2438]

Look at it from an air density perspective... I used the numbers from 6k rpm... 640hp, 157 deg f and 10.5 (25.2 absolute) psi and got .10664 lb/ft assuming 50% humidity. Compared against numbers @ 700hp 80 deg f and 11.4 psi (26.1 absolute) gives .130054 lb/cuft. This means that density increased 22% with the intercooler, and it should have made 780 hp with the added air you provided (density ratio*starting hp). So another question is where did the other 80 hp go? I mean, from a cylinder pressure perspective, its probably making it, its just not making it to the dyno number because of losses somewhere. How much power would this have made if you had not added intercooling and just turned the boost up to get to that same 22% density increase? You're not comparing apples to apples when you provide an engine 22% more mass air by driving the turbo faster due to tricking the boost control with a colder pressure signal because it doesn't account for the difference in temp. Sorry for the book, but all of these intercooling tests use a flawed method and none actually answer the question, other than prove that you can spin a turbo faster if you lower the pressure of the control signal by cooling it. It proves nothing else. If you would do this test again on a non knock limited setup, just electronically control the waste gate off compressor pressure (before the intercooler instead of after), you'd have a 90% answer. If you also measure airflow and exhaust backpressure, along with what you already have, you'd be at 98%.

[@richardholdener1727]

the temp change should not add that much power

[@mxguy2438]

@@richardholdener1727 That 157-80 degree temp change alone is roughly an 18% difference in density at the same 25.2 psi absolute. The other 4 % is the additional .9 psi. Please don't take my word for it, do the calculation and let me know if/where I'm wrong. Here is the calculator I used, there are others: www.omnicalculator.com/physics/air-density .

[@fascistpedant758]

MxGuy I believe you are over simplifying by considering charge density alone. You assume no change in volume flow, therefore an increase in mass air flow proportional to the density. Given the greater density, greater pressure across the intake port would be required to flow the same volume through the port during the same time period. Also, one should assume that if the compressor is flowing a greater mass of air, the turbine may also require higher inlet pressure to produce the greater energy required. This would lead to increased residual exhaust gas pressure in the cylinder reducing volumetric efficiency and increase pumping losses due to higher back pressure. All else being equal and within a reasonable range, one can roughly correlate power output to changes in boost pressure because the change in density correlates to the change in pressure.

[@GroovesAndLands]

Back in the day I had a turbo thunderbird with the 2.3L. I had a big turbo and a big air/air FMIC on it. Then I added a water injection arrangement (sometimes I'd dump a bottle or two of rubbing alcohol into my tank to supplement the water). Two key take aways: 1. After a zero to 140mph to zero run, with the water injection, my intake manifold was icy cold to the touch...Not the case with only the FMIC. 2. When I pulled the cylinder head off, the insides of that engine were SPOTLESSLY clean. I mean, clean as a whistle. Never seen a cleaner engine that had ANY runtime.

[@jamesgreen2364]

I think a single plane intake fuel injection system, with a plate style water meth injection system would be the best, if you aren't going to run an intercooler.

[@fgchotline3964]

James Green but will that give it enough time to remove the temp from the charge?

[@btchhopperou812]

@@fgchotline3964 yes it will because it actually is done in the combustion chamber- this is possibly why he claimed the differences in IAT seemed somewhat Insignificant in his test. I believe the true cooling effect from meth/h20 is most notable under compressions/during combustion perhaps. By and far the greatest benefit is from running a combo of IC AND meth injection being the meth SUBSTANTIALLY elavates the OCTANE in the charge and H20 handles the temp drop... Sorry for the ramble, hope I was at least somewhat helpful LOL

[@salvadordollyparton666]

Like he said, he'd like to see port injection kits...

[@oliverscorsim]

I prefer meth but on my DD I have noticed a nice tq gain on Cruze. Hit a small hill with it set at 5lbs and the boost jumps when it comes on even with Cruze control on

[@tobystacy959]

The point was charge air density for the same temperature. Intercooling made the air way more dense thus more fuel (if closed loop it did it automatically) and more power. Now similarly with meth injection, you can get away with much more boost and timing before detonation occurs, but you won't make the same power for the same temperature as intercooled

[@richardholdener1727]

we don't run closed loop

[@brianhoffman5414]

I was unaware to the potential distribution issues when adding meth, good stuff Richard you just giving me more to research. LOL

[@exploranator]

Curious if all parameters were optimized for each setup, including advancing the timing, if water was injected proportional to the overall fuel/air mass, or it was just a dumb-inject constant-flow and settings not optimized for each setup. If timing, for example, was not advanced for the cooled versions, then a lot of the potential for power gain was merely squandered. Also, having water proportionally injected at each cylinder's port would make it so one hot cylinder was not dragging down the entire engine.

[@fwiltrak]

Wasn't the use of water/meth more for the octane addition and allowing more timing than the cooling effect and now E-85 makes it irrelevant.

[@alexisthemexican]

Isn't it for AITs? I'm sure the methanol gives a slight boost to octane but I bet it's almost irrelevant. The cooler Temps allows you to pull some timing. E85 doesn't make this irrelevant. In my state E85 is not readily available. Meth injection is easy and cheap compared to gearing up a car to run E85

[@tobystacy959]

Sure E85 runs cooler with higher octane, but every scenario would benefit from cooler IAT's

[@justinredman4389]

Yes. The meth injection is to allow for more timing safely to get more power, but he even said the timing was kept all the same so it didn’t take advantage of that benefit

[@fwiltrak]

This is right from Snow Performance site "Whether running a supercharger, turbo, or high compression motor the Stage 2 Boost Cooler will make the induction charge colder, denser, and increase 91 octane fuel to 116 octane race gas levels allowing full power all the time!"

[@jonlipton9079]

I would love to see the test again but install the WMI as close to the TB as possible

[@richardholdener1727]

that changes nothing

[@jonlipton9079]

@@richardholdener1727how would it change nothing? I’m no expert but if you where to spray it as close to the runners as possible there is much less chance to has distribution issues vs injecting at the turbo

[@manitoublack]

Would be great to do some static load, static RPM tests. Say 5000RPM wide open. Hold for 60-120 seconds. Test No IC, A-W IC, A-A IC and WM. + water spray on A-A IC Oh yeah and you really need to get a 3 port mac valve, they've only $30-40. I'm sure Westec can afford one ;)

[@richardholdener1727]

all of it

[@s4060]

This please!

[@niknasstie]

Be awesome to see you test the killer chiller intercooler set up. Using the refrigerant and ac compressor instead of water. It definitely works but compare it to a water with ice set up.

[@pospc2]

Another snow user here. Been running it on a mixed use car ( some street driving,trips to Mexico and drag strip) for going on 3 years. Not a problem. I have pump mounted in the trunk so its away from the elements. Going to buy another kit for my daily that i want to turn up the boost.

[@_illtal]

Pro-Meth has direct port kits available.

[@robwhite240z]

I tried on a 6 cyl draw through carby , putting boost pressure onto a sealed water meth bottle that would then spray onto the top of the carby. more boost = more spray, it worked.

[@laiky71]

Your charge DENSITY went up, even though boost is only slightly different

[@zfreak2808]

Yep. And the boost creep is responding accordingly. Should have run two wastegates.

[@jeremyl4600]

I love that you read the comments. Big fan and been watching for a while now. Ask me how i see this turning out. It may shock you.

[@richardholdener1727]

I love the comments-best part of doing this

[@jeremyl4600]

@@richardholdener1727 i think you should capitalize on what you have started and see that you are the R&D guru for us the hot rod community. All others are pushing products. You are basically the lead guy in this area and im not sure you see your potential to reach more .

[@shaneriley8803]

On this video especially and others it'd be nice if you could pan around and show us the complete Plumbing on the headers to the turbo that looks like a combination I could use but I can't see the left side of the engine thank you please respond back

[@richardholdener1727]

the walk around video showed the left (passenger) side

[@414Chevy]

Thanks for doing this one!!! Boost increase probably comes from temp drop. Cooler air is denser air. If intake side is improved, boost goes up. Exhaust side improvement, boost goes down, BUT power still goes up. I'm still confused why the power increased so much with the intercooler vs H2O Meth even though temps were so close. Hmm.

[@stevesedio1656]

With denser (cooler) air, the same boost will provide more oxygen, thus more power. I agree, the water / meth results don't look right. The boost and air temp were very close water / meth and intercooler, why wasn't water / meth wasn't much better below 6000RPM. Evaporation will increase volume, so I would expect a bit less power with water / meth than intercooling. Not that much less.

[@exploranator]

With sloppy water injection one bad cylinder pulls timing from everything g.

[@sanger440]

Good stuff. Logical confirmation test would be single plane 4 barrel type intake with an elbow and a plate system for the meth. Maybe Egt probes on each cylinder to as a way to monitor cylinder to cylinder distribution patterns.

[@michaely6665]

The dyno curves for WM are odd..... WM almost equalled IC power & torque at high rpm, but was far off in mid range, there must be some water:fuel ratio problem occurring with WM at lower revs, or the manifold design like Richard said. The reason to run Water injection is for more boost in safety from destroying engine, this test didn't explore that. Test did show a good intercooler is preferable for power without complex tuning needed, but not all cars have space for all the piping etc.

[@jaydnisevil]

Awesome! Well done! Keep up with the direct comparison videos! You're making isolation bearable! :)

[@cab32h42]

The water alky injection decreases the temp by mixing a liquid fluid with another fluid in a gaseous state which I would speculate being the water is denser than air could explain why it has priority over the temps but would not add any more air to make more power... The intercooler however increases the cfm by cooling the air itself which again I would speculate increases the volumetric efficiency of the air charge system itself. (i.e more air effortlessly being forced into the engine= more horsepower) But Having the injection for a street motor on pg for safety appears to be just as reliable as the water to air system.

[@davidthurman2267]

Best channel on KZbin for gear heads

[@coqulation]

I'd like to have both on my truck, adding a method kit. Wonder how it's going to go after the intercooler

[@fascistpedant758]

I'm glad you cleared up the question of water/meth injection. I can tell from the comments that everything is now crystal clear to everyone. LOL

[@richardholdener1727]

exactly

[@SARJENT.]

@@richardholdener1727 have you ever done any testing using two sets of injectors one set for low boost pump fuel and the other set for high boost methanol?

[@GreenLifeOmaha_GLO]

@@SARJENT. just run e85

[@tylerosborne3980]

Water meth works best when injected near the ports, kind of like fuel injection. Water meth also allows for adjustments in the ignition timing to make more power.

[@chipschweiss]

I'd love to see the test done on a modified diesel with lots of boost.

[@mechanicsdiary1438]

as always great testing , answers a lot of questions i had..

[@LuisS1k_]

for how cheap and easy it is to run a water meth kit. its a win for me. im running a water meth on my 2014 silverado gt45 12lbs with no intercooler.. was there added timing to the engine with running the water meth taking advantage of the cooler IATs, putting the 1 nozzle in front of the turbo should cool the air being compressed by the turbo and have the 2nd nozze at the tb should do a bonus. and do intercooler with water meth, and WIC with water meth aswell.

[@GunniGST]

No ecu data review, was it the same ignition, pulsewidth, lambda, did the ecu read the same charge temps for all scenarios, was there any knock registered anywhere and so on and so on. What about all the testing done with different locations and volume of water meth, what was the conclusion there? Just not scientific enough or at least the data review isn´t

[@kyleorsak]

id like to see more about this as well.

[@edmundu]

I think he commands same for all(timing,lambda,etc) the scenarios. That is why the water meth kit it picked up at the end of pull when wastegate wasn't keeping up so it leaned out water meth so it could actually produce the similar power to intercooled version. If he trimmed the fueling for water meth it would've been almost identical to intercooled version. My take away is run both WMI and intercooler with temp failsafe add some timing and trim fuel for WMI and could've added more power!

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

You are very thorough! You should start a similar youtube channel.

[@leepederson5254]

At 170 be hard to keep timing

[@richardholdener1727]

we don't run a factory ECU-we used Holley-obviously all AF and timing the same-been doing this a few years (decades) now. We tried every conceivable combination of nozzle size, single and dual, activation onset etc.. to tune the WM. Registered knock! That's Tuner funny

[@robsheffield4371]

Love to see this using E85

[@azza9575]

I have seen somewhere , e85 takes the need away for water/meth

[@SoftiesTruck]

Az Za E85 really has that big effect on cooling? What IAT temp difference are you seeing on E85 vs no E85? Thanks man

[@leviholt3821]

If the W/M nozzle was further from the intake would that help with distribution and provide better cooling across the ports?

[@GroovesAndLands]

Maybe? I think the key take away here, is you should NOT rely on good wet-flow distribution through a manifold designed for dry flow; especially a long-runner one. The early LS1/LS6 guys that ran wet kits discovered time and time again how easy it was to blow apart a manifold on account of puddled fuel combined with a backfire through the intake. I believe the FAST manifolds back then even had a pop-off valve feature designed to help prevent the manifold exploding.

[@jedwards100able]

Richard Holdener try running 100% Methonal instead of water/methonal mix.

[@TMgarage540]

Juicy info! This guy deserves more attention on KZbin!

[@bdugle1]

By my quick/dirty spreadsheet, a change in charge temp from 173 to 86 makes about a 10 lb/min difference in air due to density. That’s about 100 hp! Like other comments, I’m wondering if a carb-style single plane would work better with the water-meth injection. Ditto also on the tuning parameters-was there a big timing difference? How about water-meth injection well before the throttle body, assuming it gets triggered near or after full throttle. It seems like once the charge was cooled, it would stay cooled. More tests!

[@dgpgarage9291]

Yea, engine masters showed the same results, that intake manifold sucks for wet flow causing distribution problems, you’d need a direct port setup. Or a better intake manifold

[@Hitman-ds1ei]

Wish you had done an E85 fourth comparison run with these three, I feel that would have been a real world deal as would cover the 4 most likely options for DD

[@richardholdener1727]

e85 does improve charge cooling

[@Hitman-ds1ei]

I was referring running it on straight E85 with that particular combination as a direct comparison as this would be a practical option for a daily driver, one can theorize all day but real world back to back testing like this, as they say "the proof is in the pudding"

[@james10739]

Ya I surprised you did not put in at least another temp sensor in the rear too and I saw people mention timing which makes sense to me especially with water as well that takes some air space but also doesn't burn well so more timing makes sense to me

[@davelewis2174]

100% correct on needing IR water meth injection on any manifold.

[@tunerdadtunerdad7927]

Very nice test...I really appreciate the work you do. I dont run intercoolers anymore...I am a water injection guy. That being said.. It is a packaging issue for me. My cars always get faster and pick up boost when removing the intercooler...but my cars don't have the realestate for an appropriately sized AtA intercooler.

[@sexyfacenation]

i imagine you add timing when injecting water ?

[@davidleslie6207]

I'm going to guess that the high rpm boost spikes on both the IC and WMI are from greater charge density. Which in turn increased the quantity of exhaust gases for the WG to process causing the rising boost at high RPM. I'm also going to guess that the WMI caught up with the IC on the top end because the distribution equalized at high RPM. I believe the distribution equalized bc the velocity was high enough at the upper RPM and/or the turbo outlet temperature was high enough to boil the water MEOH mix. Higher temperatures cause greater atomization and higher water saturation of the air. More then likely it was a combination of both Temp and Velocity. So port WM injection would be interesting, but would the WM have enough time in that short distance/time to absorb the heat energy before it hits the intake valve. Thereby increasing the charge density before the intake valve, allowing more charge into the combustion chamber? Another cool test for WMI would be Octane increase or knock resistance. Because at the end of the day boost is not the end all be all of it. It's more like how much power can I make without breaking the bank or breaking parts.

[@richardholdener1727]

the distribution did not equalize at high rpm-difference in temp of cylinders was over 100 degrees-difference increasing with rpm on the WM

[@GroovesAndLands]

If there was greater air density with the water/meth - why did the engine not make more power?

[@Parents_of_Twins]

Could the increase in boost be from the expansion of cooled air? We know that Pressure*Volume=nR*Temperature so if the temperature of the air is increasing near the end of the run that could lead to an increase in Pressure=Boost at that point in the system. I have to say I like the way Gale Banks is dealing with this by not worrying about boost pressure but instead looking at air density. I don't know if this is a usable hypothesis or not.

[@JerryLee..]

Great test and data sharing. The analysis is a bit incomplete though.

[@craigyoung3449]

C can you please show us where you put the second nozzle for the watermouth before the throttle body thanks much appreciated help,s of knowledge from this Video 👍👍👍👍👍

[@richardholdener1727]

should be shown in the photos

[@Cheap0]

Great info man as always nobody else gets the details down to a t like u fairly new to ls game in a s10 but if I gota question I come here ... Richard never fails ..........

[@Dwarfgrinder]

Great tests. Imo-if you are going to inject anything it might as well be NOS.

[@danielsullivan9865]

Need to test e85, air to air cooler with 2 additional injectors insalled in the charge pipe.

[@Boostaddicts_YT]

Lots of companies like snow, Prometh, Devilsown, Coolingmist etc all offer direct port set ups

[@gmcnelly2468]

Richard, it looks like, based on several learned sources, that the water injection volume should be about 14% of the fuel volume. I have not knowledge of the water injection used on this experiment, but was curious if followed the foregoing volume and tailored directly to the change in fuel flow???

[@richardholdener1727]

we adjusted up and down

[@danielferguson6135]

Why not both?

[@LSXvoodoo]

Great content as always. How about making a video about turbo lag, a too little turbo vs too much turbo for DD vs Racing. Keep them coming..

[@bartpang]

It's really hard to simulate turbo lag on engine dyno because the rpm sweep is controlled and pulls are made a WOT.

[@fascistpedant758]

@@dj4monie Why would a V8 have less lag??? Mirrored turbos are mainly for aesthetics and might help with packaging. They don't make more power.

[@austindoud273]

@@dj4monie everything you just said was wrong

[@GroovesAndLands]

@@bartpang Agree it's very difficult to simulate lag/response characteristics seen in a car with the dyno - but it's NOT difficult to conceive a test that allows you to compare lag/response differences between different turbos. The SF902 water brake dyno is capable of holding a steady rpm. All that's needed is to have brake maintain, say, a steady 3000rpm while you go to WOT. Repeat at 3500 and 4500rpm. This will create several different boost vs. time data traces. Swap to a different turbo and repeat tests. You'll see very different curves.

[@yotaismygame]

BW S366

[@manitoublack]

Question: does the water evaporating displace O2 therefore less power? Also water meth pre-turbo works very well and solves distribution issues as the turbo chops it all up. Old rally cars use to do it (water only, Don't want a bomb in the intercooler

[@luvspus69]

That's what I was thinking, the meth is supposed to be injected before the turbo. All of the water evaporates in the hot turbo to provide the cooling effect.

[@jamest.5001]

Looks like the water hitting the compressor would slow down the spooling, I'd rather inject after the turbo, but a good way from the throttle body, i don't like how what ever is injected, nitrous, water/meth, stays on one side of the throttle blade, if injected close to the throttle body, looks like distribution could get really bad, maybe put two injector nozzles about 4"-6" from the throttle body , not up top one on the bottom side, they say 50/50 is the best, I wonder what straight methanol injection would do?

[@jamest.5001]

The water turns to steam in the combustion process, and just before, taking heat from the cylinder, not really effecting the o2, the methanol evaporates almost instantly, depending on the temperature and pressure, dropping the temp of the intake charge , allowing more o2 into the cylinder, but even the water steam cools the chambers, while being super heated, the Methanol richens the air fuel, and can add octane,

[@buiItnotbought]

Check out prometh volute injection

[@richardholdener1727]

does it help distribution lol

[@mikew6135]

I wonder if you have ever done a test where water/meth works? Many have but you seem to have a lot of issues with the systems. You added boost and LOST horsepower made same power as non intercooled run with a cooler intake charge. Very interesting testing. I'll keep looking for a successful test by you. Thanks for your efforts.

[@richardholdener1727]

it only adds power if timing is increased or you use straight meth or boost is increased

[@jeremyl4600]

Ive got several ways i see this video progressing

[@shawng7902]

about 9 min mark you were talking about charge temp and how people run these in open engine compartments. I've seen a lot that is sucking air right off the back of the radiator and intercooler. I will have to search for a video, but I've always wondered what the +/- of actually plumbing some sort of cold air intake into turbo. Anyone ran a test so far to see what a few feet of pipe on the intake side would do. Its all a trade-off, for me I'm going to run a filter on the street. Today you can run 1 of these fairly mild turbo combos at 700-1000 RWHP. Does the 50hp you loose really matter on a 275 radial driving on the street? Id like to put mine together and have it last a few years honestly.

[@madvtecyo546]

I’m not even a v8 Guy. I drove Honda’s my whole life. I have a boosted s2000 making a cute 430whp haha. But I Love the channel man. Seriously makes me what to LS swap something.

[@richardholdener1727]

My last Honda was a sweet, sweet, VX-gave it to my Buddy Chad Reynolds last year-50=5 mpg Freeway. Miss it so! Lots of Hondas in my life.

[@madvtecyo546]

Richard Holdener awesome! I had a VX hatch at one point. With the awesome lil single cam Vtec-E, Running on 1 intake valve per cylinder instead of 2 at low RPM to save even more gas. Pretty cool design. With All this LS stuff crazy to think you drove a civic 😂 You’re a real car guy for sure. Love all makes and models. Anyways take care. Keep the videos coming 👌🏼

[@aaronliddell4280]

So is there any disadvantage to running both (intercooler and meth/water)?

[@markburkey6371]

There is such thing as making an engine too cold...but if you do it right, it works great!

[@aaronliddell4280]

@@markburkey6371 so at what point is the engine considered too cold?

[@markburkey6371]

@@aaronliddell4280 not sure, that's just what I've always been told...🤷‍♂️

[@aaronliddell4280]

Richard, can you touch on this?

[@GFPRACING]

Snow Performance Water/Methanol Injection System, Stage 2.5 Forced Induction Kits, 4150 Flange Naturally Aspirated, Carbureted

[@remybrouwer8700]

I dropped you a test question on your ATA vs ATW video related to cooling the fuel and the effects on it. ( if any )

[@richardholdener1727]

cooling fuel is good

[@remybrouwer8700]

@@richardholdener1727 do you see it possible to make that test I described ?

[@remybrouwer8700]

@@richardholdener1727 yes I agree, it seems logical that if one cools air doing so with fuel will as well have some degree of benefied but there are skeptical that say it is not worth the effort or there is nothing to be gained, I guess the only way to settle this is by doing a dyno test.

[@Anth0ny_IHML]

Would love to see a pre turbo and individual port meth injection to compare the results 🤔. Thank you for all this data

[@richardholdener1727]

pre turbo coming

[@curvs4me]

Air mass at 480 degrees vs 80 degrees is half per cubic foot. 40psi at 480 is the same amount of air mass as 20psi at 80 degrees. Those aren't exact but close enough to use in tuning. In an extended run the hp at 20psi should be double the amount of the non intercooled one. If your dyno is capable of holding 8-900 ft lbs you will get much more data. You can also setup mass air flow to see how much less air you pull in as it gets hotter even though the boost is the same. Air mass is far more important than boost alone.

[@kensmechanicalaffair]

Thank you.