Preach Thinks Shadowlands HURT WoW Forever

[@TheDailyPreach]

While mike was having some lunch, he mused on the continuing lack of interest in WoW at the moment and the possible permanent effect that Shadowlands may have had on the playerbase as they branch out into other games.

[@keshavramsamy891]

Maybe you can change that with some class guides increase dps, similar to older video on stacking cooldowns and the sort. Best expansion for years imo p.s preach ff14 is trash tier

[@ahayesm]

Dragonflight improved on a lot of aspects that made shadowlands bad but the underlying rot of it being too complicated to be fun still exists.

[@xRichhhx]

So your typical burnout of the xpac that happens a few months in with each xpac (and with every game tbh) that's causing a "lack of interest" is the result of SL? Even though the game's always holding a very steady viewercount on Twitch and KZbin? No one can deny that it did but it's moreso that people have achieved most of their goals by now. Seems to be doing just fine for being out so long tbh.

[@Patchy237]

Shadowlands killed all interest i had in buying future WoW expansions forever..it allowed me to branch out and play both other MMOs and even other genres i normally would not have tried. At this stage in the expansion i cannot imagine dropping $50 plus $15 for a month of game time, when i might only play for a week tops before getting bored again..and that is a feeling that will hold for future expansions as well, it's so much better playing a game that respects your time like FFXIV.

[@axl4394]

@@ahayesm how tf is Dragonflight too complicated? You get gear, you do the content you wanna do

[@boozie773]

This has turned out to be true for me. Shadowlands was the final straw I just didn’t know it at the time. I don’t even watch WoW related content other than a few of Mike’s videos which was never the case in the past. Even if I was on a break or unhappy with the game I always consumed WoW content of some kind everyday.

[@nhagan001]

Yeah, I don’t think Blizzard quite realizes how much they killed their fan base on this one. Playing for lore? Haha Jailer go Brrrr. Playing for Raiding? Oh all the systems you have to conquer just to start. Playing for Mythic Raiding? How many hundreds of millions of gold do you need?

[@LethalShadow]

Same for me. After I quit Shadowlands, it was the first time I did not start missing WoW after a while.

[@nolp2898]

Same exact boat. Even when I would take breaks from the game I would follow loads of creators and be generally well informed. But now? I couldnt name a single Dragonflight boss/zone or anything. And I dont really care to see any of it.

[@Kiobao]

Same. Shadowlands was just one of the LAST things that pushed me away. It has been there for awhile and I still like aspects of WoW and watch a few people play it sometimes, not nearly as much besides Mike and 1 or 2 others, and I'm interested in news about it, just hard to get motivated to do anything in the game because of it. It wasn't just the systems, it was the botch of the lore, what they've done to characters, blizzard as a whole, and the culture sort of behind them lately as well as just the PR and mentality. Even down to the "Body type 2" sort of things that just make me think maybe I need to not be bothered with this game anymore. I did play more WoW classic more, but I've largely stopped playing MMO's all together for the most part currently.

[@andyramirez4293]

Yea same I tried song dragon flight me and my girl did we bought the expac got to level on the 2nd day we got like one level and logged off idk man I just I just don’t feel it anymore the passion and love I had for it I once did it’s dead for me

[@alexandersnider734]

It was the entire Sylvanas arc of BfA - Shadowlands, that not only dispelled a lot of the story and world magic with completely ridiculous and bad story telling, but also over-systemized the gameplay. They basically broke the spell the game had over people by making the world feel unbelievable, with no immersion or story to identify with. It just became World of Item Levels (oh and heres a villain we were forced to come up with).

[@JoseHernandez-em3rp]

I would disagree....I would say it was a lot of the gameplay mechanics that the game had implemented in BFA and Shadowlands that ruined it for everyone.

[@aaronclay4665]

if you ask me everthing after mist of pan was just down hill........it just went off a clif with bfa and shadowlands

[@Valvad0ss]

@@aaronclay4665facts

[@gymonstarfunkle136]

The community is part of what makes WoW into World of Item Level. I would say it is the main part. The vast majority of pressure I have felt to chase ilvl has come from the WoW community itself.

[@mikhailg4667]

​@aaronclay4665 yessss!! Literally the start of the slow descent

[@Tijuanabill]

How can they have blown such an easy story opportunity, to have made SL all about the characters that died previously, helping us make it back or whatever, and maybe even bringing some of them back somehow? It could have been a nostalgia-fest that wrote itself, and everyone would have loved it.

[@richardb8157]

It's Blizzard, remember? They wouldn't, COULDN'T pass up on opportunity to completely fuck something up.

[@cool_sword]

I remember thinking that was exactly what it was going to be. I was pretty unenthusiastic about the expansion when it was announced because I thought it was gonna be a bunch of uninspired nostalgia bait that would put you to sleep but fly off the shelves, like so much other media these days. Should have let me write it, I guess.

[@gf1917]

I think ripping the veil off the mystery of death was a bad idea in the first place. Death should be the mysterious land behind the grey-rain curtain or where the trains from the otherworldly King's Cross take you on to, not a machine for which we and all character in the lore we ever cared about are just fuel.

[@kwaziiman]

How we had an entire expansion about the afterlife and we DIDNT get any time with Varian, Cairne, Voljin or Tirion is beyond me

[@ghost-in-the-ciel]

the jailer

[@Snuzzled]

I know so many people who quit during Shadowlands and said that it was the final straw for them, and they're never coming back. And they so far have meant it. I've known people who left and came back, left and came back, but they never said they weren't coming back before. They did this time. Shadowlands was a one-two punch of not just horrible story that completely thrashed the old lore, but also severely punishing content. It was just too much for a lot of people.

[@keelhaulsthingsthatdontmatter]

WoW lore used to be fun and exciting, for all the shit it gets (some rightfully, some not), in Cataclysm, if you did all the leveling quests you'd start to see threads between certain zones and stories, even across factions, and discovering those threads was genuinely rewarding to me. It's hard to pin down when exactly things changed, but by BfA I realized that, the more quests I did, the more I just recognized a lack of connection. The gorilla boss in Battle for Dazar'alor? Makes no fucking sense if you do both the Horde and Alliance version of those quests. You can literally only make it work by headcanoning that the "good" Alliance gorillas are actually the evil ones lying to the Alliance and pretending to be victims. I realized that knowing the lore wasn't fun, it was punishing.

[@AutoriotM]

This exactly. For me, my partner, and many friends this was the case.

[@kaster15]

I will get hate for that. But WoW used to be fun to casually clear mythic raids. But then M+ happened, getting one 15+ run for the chest was fine, nothing bad. Then the whole vault thing happened and... Nah, the pressure to do ten times that just burned me out permanently. I just hate doing Mythic+, it was rarely fun, plugging it was bad, doing it with your group it was generally boring. I fucking hate the endless gear grind outside of raiding. I missed the time where you got your pre-raid bis and then you progged and you were free to do your alts. Other MMOs offer you that while WoW forces you into an ARPG grind fest for variations of the same item, the same trinket/weapon/whatever through insanely layered RNG system.

[@Rhob81]

@@kaster15 Exactly this, Vault was the most awful addition to the game and the second worst isn't even close.

[@hotpotato3311]

@@kaster15 This is one of the reasons I left the game and am playing Guild Wars 2. Legendary items are very difficult to make there but once you make them their stats become customizeable and you can use them across all of your alts. That is just unbeleiveably convenient.

[@mchowast]

I think for many players a habit has been broken and they have seen that other games can be just as or even more fun. Even though I have been out of the game for a long time(last time was Legion) for me personally a big part is there is nothing in the game that interests me. I like small group content instead of raiding, but I don't like Mythic+, simply because I don't like time based stuff. The first 10 or 15 or whatever at the start of the expansion, with shitty gear is kinda fun, but afterwards it's just the regular treadmill. Also just the logistics in getting back, like setting up addons, reading up on what's good and stuff like that, I just don't feel like doing it.

[@Waybackwhennn]

You should give DF a shot, i'm a new player only couple months in but i'm really enjoying it, of course my opinion is skewed since i'm fairly new but i've tried to play wow before and never really liked it (20 lvl trials), this time i've made it to end game and still having fun so far

[@TimmyTechTV]

BFA killed wow for me, Shadowlands was just the last nail in the coffin.

[@witcherpie]

both expansions were amazing for me, seems like you didn't even play them and you spread crap to join the hate wagon hype

[@SuperLuigiFan22]

​@@witcherpiecope harder

[@witcherpie]

@@SuperLuigiFan22 what's there to cope for? I do mean it with all my heart that one day I'll be able to play again these 2 expacs as classic wow lol, or in private servers Both were fantastic

[@SuperLuigiFan22]

@projectalpha4831 both expansions were bad, game shoulda ended after legion imo.

[@witcherpie]

@@SuperLuigiFan22 seems like you don't want to play wow anymore, and nobody cares, the ones who do tho actually enjoy the hell out of it. Plus the negative opinions usually make the most noise, the guys who are having fun are spending theyre time in game, not complaining how bad the game is and all this crap xD

[@ZiaErina]

The level of apathy I feel towards WoW honestly makes me very sad. I have had some genuine bouts of depression around WoW and despite Dragonflight being a very good expansion, I just can't put the time in. Not because I don't have the time, because it just feels like a waste of time. Its like SL shattered the glass and made me realize how pointless the pixels on the screen are, how little I am achieving while not all together having too much fun anyway. Its bled into my enjoyment of games in general and has led to a really intensive adjustment in my perspective on how I spend my time.

[@lautarotrefilio4773]

once the veil is lifted you cannot go back it happened to me back in the day (for the opposite reason) with DS3 killing Gael and seeing everything come to an end left a gaping hole in my soul that no other game could ever hope to fill

[@lieQT]

I think it's possible to come back from that. I'd suggest not just a break from WoW but WoW related media too. I didn't truly start to feel a bit like I could come back to WoW and enjoy it after 3-4 years of not even keeping up with whatever was happening or consuming any content. Came back now and I'm having a great time, just making sure I play at my own pace and focus on goals I want to achieve and closing the game the moment that derealisation happens.

[@StealingYourWiFi]

"how little I am achieving while not all together having too much fun anyway" Man that sums up ALL of my SL experience.

[@jakubpelikan2393]

So basicaly happen exactly what i was saying since MoP. Blizzard in order to make game acessible made WoW feel like its all waste of time while being boring.

[@Rhob81]

Tried DF, enjoyed leveling through Dragon Isles but once in endgame the hamster wheel kicked in and I instantly quit. I'm not mindlessly pursuing empty numbers anymore.

[@bloodofsanguinius4222]

The sky shattering at the top of Icecrown Citadel was actually the breaking of people’s WoW addiction, dispelling the illusion of enjoyment in the game

[@omegaxtrigun]

I mean, Sylvanas literally said she was going to “set us all free” in that cinematic. We just didn’t know how true that was at the time.

[@minuette1752]

It could have been so much more interesting but Shadowlands failed almost completely.

[@eodyn7]

I don't have an illusion of enjoying the game. Dragonflight is awesome.

[@minuette1752]

@@eodyn7 I would not say awesome. It is good and a step in the right direction for sure. That is praise for an mmo as old as WoW.

[@deckofcardboard]

"This WORLD is a prison!" People are cluing into the meta-narrative.

[@Grimbonez]

For me, as a player who started in the rts era who cares more about the world and story, wow has kind of always been a downward spiral. Each xpac retconning and killing more of what came before it. I quit in cata, with every major story and design choice pushing me further away. I tried to come back in mop and again in legion, but by then, id already found 14 and after capping in legion(and running some of the endgame stuff pre-raid) I realized that there was nothing i thought wow did better. There was nothing left for me in that world. There’s nothing left they could do to get me back. No matter how good they make DF(or future expacs)The damage has been done and it’s irreparable for me. Shadowlands was just another nail in that tightly shut coffin lol

[@mikhailg4667]

Thank you so much for this comment. I agree completely. The single-player experience will, for the most part, focus on story and lore. Imo MMOs' other priorities shift those resources away, and I've always felt sad seeing games like Fallout, Warcraft, etc. be pushed into a more mononetizeable market like multi-player games. Thanks again for articulating what you did! :)

[@dorsia6938]

I agree, I'm one of those vanilla guys. The world back then felt so...magical but grounded at the same time, it was fantastical, dark but also the right amount of expansiveness. I also like the lack of quality of life features. I have to really think about what I want to do on vanilla because things take so long and so when I do decide on something it feels like it has more weight. Idk, I know the game has less bells and whistles as later expansions and I did enjoy BC and Wrath for the most part but there's simply something beautiful to me about vanilla that none of the later xpacs captured.

[@DTremens1ea1]

BFA made me mad, and wow needed an uplift, shadowlands just kinda smashed the nail in, they proved that they don't care about players so i went elsewhere, and i know people are having fun in DF but it all seems like it's exactly what it was before with a few dragon things, needs to be above and beyond to bring people back

[@zombiejesus7445]

/agreed! BFA was sooo alt un-friendly and I think that is what did it. Even trying to play 2 specs on the same character seemed like a pain in the dick

[@nhagan001]

@@stu.chainz completely gone you say? You seem confident that Blizzard has completely changed their ways… So you can guarantee it won’t come back? That blizzard won’t pull another jailer out of their ass and destroy multiple character arcs? That they won’t do Azerite Power or Covenants again? You seem to be looking at Dragonflight as their Promise to never go backwards again, but I look at it as blizzard BEGGING us to come back and give them a third chance.

[@DTremens1ea1]

@@stu.chainz why would i come back to the game, when they spent 6 years giving me the finger, which encouraged me to find other games i liked. Are you somehow mad that someone enjoys other games or something? Like.... is this Ion on his rage account or something?

[@DTremens1ea1]

@@stu.chainz projection? you ok?

[@Eoleoriffic]

Was going to comment my own experience but this was basically it to a T. BfA did way more damage imo because it felt so shitty to play coming off the high that was Legion. I hated how my characters played, leveling was completely unenjoyable and I always loved leveling in a new expansion. I resubbed to SL for two months and although the leveling experience was much better, I realized that after more than two years away from it, I hated the endgame grind and having to manage addons and such. Maybe it’s age catching up with me, but I just want to be able to jump on and do whatever and not worry about having to put the hours in.

[@thedarkfox9851]

I have tried going back to WoW but now there is so many things that I do not like anymore compared to FF14. The biggest issue for me is probably the ability to play any class without having to get on another character and I actually prefer the combat system in FF14 now. Also I meet alot more nice people in FF14 compared to wow where I felt like I just play for myself because Im not on the level of skill where I could do the things I want. Never really felt this way before, but the last time I logged in was when the trading post came out so I did that and instantly felt burned out again so I guess my wow days are just over.

[@brathambright]

ffxiv's combat is the biggest flaw for me. I might just be a turbo simpleton, but ff's button bloat is terrible. every class feels like it has a general idea that's fleshed out at level 70 and then the next 20 levels is just random abilities added on for no general reason

[@jacktconnor]

I've played since Burning Crusade on and off for years and raided quite a bit in BFA and Shadowlands. I hit an epiphany when after slugging through both expansions I wasn't enjoying the game, when Dragonflight came around I gave it an honest chance and despite how much everyone sings it's praises it feels so stale and the same formula rinse and repeated for years that I've completely fallen out of favor with the game. Power to anyone who is able to still enjoy it it's just no longer for me anymore.

[@Emidretrauqe]

Same. I wish I had more to look forward to than just dragon riding...

[@gf1917]

I think DF is a cleaning house expansion. They throw out all the rubbish they accumulated during the previous expansions but the result is a dull, not too exciting room that feels strangely empty now that the trash is out. The question is whether they can fill it with functional and fun things OR keep it mostly empty and sterile OR fill it up with trash again. We'll see.

[@rayvg7709]

Yup, it started during Legion for me. I dropped the game in Shadowlands, came back a bit before Dragonflight was gonna launch but never bought it.

[@cattysplat]

@@rayvg7709 Legion was amazing but exhausting. There was so much if you did all the class halls and the artifact grind was real. Some insane whiplash after WoD of just farming garrisons and raidlogging.

[@matthewchapman7301]

Shadowlands strangled my emotional interest in an IP I’ve loved since 1995. Dragonflight is a great expansion, and the devs should be proud of the work they’ve done…but my interest in the game is incredibly tepid right now. Keeping on eye on it, ducking in every now and then to check something out, but I can’t stick with it for more than a week or so

[@aaronclay4665]

honestly its the best way for old wow attics to play wow, they all need to move on, andjust come back every patch and play for a bit, honestly no matter what mmo you play now of days if your an old wow coupim head that stayed with it till shadowlands, there are decadoes of good mmo play out there, Black desert, final fantays 14, guild wars, final fantasy 11, osrs and a few mmos that are fun for a month or so.......even genshin impact.... its what i did, just stopped playing after MoP and jplayed other mmos and it was the best thing i ever did, i dont even come back now tho, since i just find wideing my mmorpg play has shown me how bad WoW really was after mop.

[@marmorad4319]

Yup. It looks good but I am just waiting for them to turn around and turn it into shit again. I've been unsubbed since 8.2. I saw the writing on the wall when they decided to genocide a playable race just to make the opposite faction feel cool without giving the victims the time of day. Lo and behold SL's story was just as offensively bad as I predicted. Not to mention the fact that I knew something was morally wrong with these people, just not to what extent... I didn't buy SL or DF, and I'll be waiting until 10.3 before I even consider buying DF.

[@Scottoest]

One pretty good expansion isn’t going to fix WoWs damaged legacy, after the spell has broken for a lot of people. They need multiple expansions demonstrating a massive, sustained change in direction. I honestly think this might be a good time to start considering a sequel, as it would let them reset the hype meter and expectations. It’d also let them put stuff in that tech debt won’t let them do now, like player housing.

[@jace743]

This is my thought process as well. For me, part of it was that I’m just in a stage of life now where I don’t wanna spend the time that WoW requires, but I’d also just seen enough instances of WoW “finally fixing things” and the fix lasts for a patch or two before they start doing anti-fun, time-wasting nonsense again, coupled with bad story. One expansion isn’t enough for me. I need to see a trend lasting years at this point, and even then, I would only come back if my life circumstances allowed it.

[@darkstorm2579]

There's no guarantee that a sequel would take off. The MMO industry is a lot more competitive now and Blizzard doesn't have the reputation it had in its prime anymore. They could very well be digging their own grave by making WoW 2.

[@terrine8391]

@@darkstorm2579 They would need to do it in a way that people can transition from WoW to WoW2 like it's an expansion or smth. A bit like Phantasy Star Online 2 New Genesis did.

[@Grubnar]

Have you seen what happens if a new player tries to play World of WarCraft? Have you actually watched any of the videos here on KZbin or elsewhere that show what it is really like? Most new players just give up after playing for a day. Most give up within an hour! Compare and contrast that with the "new player experience" in WoW Classic ... it is like night and day. Forget about expansions ... they first need to fix what already exists.

[@darkstorm2579]

@@Grubnar So which is it? Do new players give up after playing for a day or an hour?

[@Rhob81]

I was completely sucked by WoW since release and I'm full glad SL made me realise how I was wasting my time. I now spend a lot of time in FFXIV, but it's quality time with my friends, being it raiding savage, running maps on a Friday evening with some beers, preparing my crafting/gathering melds for 6.4, tweaking my house, doing some isle stuff or doing some tribal quests or pissing around in clubs. Every day is different and enjoyable for me. You nailed it in the video, I've been saying since I joined FFXIV and after realising how casual content rich it is, that WoW is just an empty husk outside raids/M+/PvP. The fact that DF has freed up a lot of time due to no borrowed power to grind is good, but they need to put casual content out there that isn't world quests so people can voluntarily fill that time and hang around with their friends. Basically more social oriented stuff (housing, small battle scenarios, perma and improved Darkmoon faire, more in depth emote/char customisation system...), or even personal solo challenges with cosmetic rewards (in order to make them fully optional). End of the day, casuals are the majority and they need content to stick around when they're not doing their rando M+ runs or raids.

[@TheGerrok]

I play some FFXIV too, but it's only a few weeks for a patch here and there. The fact that I can drop in/drop out is just the way I want to play. I wander away to play other games as I see fit, and I know that the game is waiting for me and gives me plenty of reasons to come back when I want too. I think playing WoW as a single game is fine if that's your jam, but there is a lot of top tier games that I haven't played over the years and I love going back to play games like Dark Souls every year or two. If I was letting WoW dominate my free time I wouldn't have the opportunity to enjoy all the great games out there.

[@marxman6896]

I think BFA and SL definitely did lasting damage to the playerbase, but more than that, it's been the sort've abandoning of the middle 80% of the playerbase that has caused so much damage. It used to be, the bottom 10% and the top 10% of players just kind of had to exist within the content made for the middle 80%. These days, *all* of the content is designed for that top and bottom 10%, and the middle portion of the playerbase, the vast majority of semi-casual and ssemi-hardcore players, are just expected to git gud or go full casual... and I think that makes for a significantly worse video game. WoW is SO FUCKING COMPETITIVE these days, and I don't think that has been to the benefit of anyone, really. I find it hard to care about WoW now because WoW doesn't care about me, a semi-hardcore, former-hardcore player who's just looking to clear dungeons and raids at a moderate difficulty with some buds. That's increasingly difficult in today's WoW, I think.

[@lelandwhitehead56]

I don't think that is the fault of the game design. Wrath Classic is as close to WotLK's original version, and people were clearing Naxx within hours of it opening, and then the same repeated with Ulduar. Yogg0 was killed in less than 24 hours, compared to his original 85 days.

[@marxman6896]

@@lelandwhitehead56 I don't see that as a problem. Solved games are easy, shocking! I think Blizzard has just added layers of complexity onto the retail game over and over and over in an attempt to "beat" weakauras, and the result is a game that just isn't as fun as it used to be for a vast majority of its playerbase. I'm 34 years old. I don't have it in me to be a sweatlord white-knuckle grindgod anymore. Even if I physically could, even if I had the time to do so, I wouldn't *want* to do that anymore... but in the last several expansions, it feels like it's either that or go full casual and become a pet battler or mount grinder. That also doesn't really appeal to me. You know what *does* appeal to me? Full clearing the raid in 1 night a week relatively easily, getting some BiS items, and shooting the shit with the boys. Classic, basically. If I played that way in retail, I would be insanely behind the curve, because M+ and Mythic raiding have made "keeping up" so much more time and effort intensive that it's not even really fair to compare the 2 games.

[@thareus20]

Exactly bro. I got Heroic Rasz and Keystone Hero relatively early in 10.0 but I have to abandon my current guild to progress further and sink even more time than I do currently. Ergo, I just think I will uninstall because even if I did all these things, it's not gonna improve my skill since I parse like 99% relative to ilvl for most M+ runs and raid bosses. I just don't (maybe can't) become a top top player and I don't wanna do certain things that would allow me to do so.

[@stoney202]

@@marxman6896 This just sounds like repeated talking points post 22 especially when it comes to Dragonflight. If you want to raid Mythic It's true you need to commit at least an extra day a week to clear 4 +20s for the vault. If you're struggling to clear heroic with the boys one day a week in the time between big patches, then you either need to join a more competent group or play more competently yourself. There is a lot of time investment you need to make to clearing Omega, Even Savage can be difficult on 1 night (before Alliance raid) if your group isn't altogether there.

[@marxman6896]

@@stoney202 The difference between FFXIV and WoW retail is that FFXIV provides a shitload of content that isn't competitive M+ or raiding. WoW really hasn't in recent years. Either you're a giga casual and do world quests and collect mounts, or the game expects you to be doing +20s and Mythic raids. There's no in-between that feels good... hence my point. FFXIV as a giga casual actual feels pretty good to play, because the game isn't just about the gear treadmill like WoW is.

[@blue.lagoon00]

Shadowlands was definitely the last straw for me. I think it started in BfA with Azerite armor and the endless grind of systems, then Shadowlands became the last nail in the coffin for the game and provided the justification to go start from ground 0 in a new game, since even starting from nothing would be better than endlessly grinding unintuitive and abusively structured systems. They burnt that bridge so fully that even if Dragonflight is a great expansion I can't justify coming to check it out; the burnout from Shadowlands is just that severe.

[@Scottistic]

I look at wow and Im like “this looks cool” but i am then reminded of how burned out i am

[@Emidretrauqe]

I think 80% of MMO's are just pavlovian responses. People ignored WoW's problems, not out of patience, but out of positive conditioning formed under a better game. Since then the opposite has happened. Everything about the game just makes people feel anxious and tired now. Just because of their associations with everything else. The same walls the game built to keep people in are now preventing people from coming back.

[@aaronclay4665]

@@Emidretrauqe nah, wow fans just had on blinders and there is a whole crowd of"if i stop plaing i will lose the last 10 years of my life" sunken cost , everone who was not like this left wow after wrath or mist...the ones who stayed were just on coupim or wishing beyond wishing that wow would go back to its leeroy days.

[@minuette1752]

WoW is a very old game with a couple of expacs left at the most, and then they should finish it. Just my two cents.

[@TheProud1]

@@Emidretrauqe This hits perfectly, and reflects Mike's comment as well. I left in Shadowlands, came back for DF, had a blast leveling and trying out the new class, but as soon as I hit endgame and the grind started again, I quickly remember a big reason of why I left in the first place. I don't want every decision I make to be purely focused on how I get more gear. Simply wasn't an enjoyable experience again. And it is sad cause there are some things that I genuinely like that they are doing, but I don't want to go through the whole gear slog to enjoy them.

[@jshskylark]

9.0 was a real highlight for me. Lost my job during COVID and wanted to lay low for a while. The game offered some solace at that point - kept me socially active and structured. By the end of 9.1 I'd been back working a few months and became so frustrated and disenchanted with the game and my guild that I just didn't want to do it anymore. I got out then, I've dabbled here and there trying to rediscover a joy for it and just haven't been able to feel that spark again since. There's a part of me that wishes I felt as excited for the game as I used to, but I just cannot seem to manifest it anymore.

[@thareus20]

Lol shadowlands was so bad that you got your life back together just to get away from it 😂😂😂 Anyway, happy for you man.

[@jshskylark]

@@thareus20 Lol yeah I guess that's one way of looking at it :P And thank you!

[@lukeluckynblue1873]

@@thareus20 It happened to me also :D i was like without work and doing hardcore progression in wow legion BFA every expansion and then shadowlands came..and i was like What the hell am i doing this is garbooooo so i stopped and start getting back into life After some time i can tell that it was the best decision i made So shadowlands is not that bad because it cured me and pushed me back on track

[@jshskylark]

@@lukeluckynblue1873 Great to hear, dude! As you say, in a roundabout way SL was great for you because it put you in a direction you're happier with. Maybe there will come a time where it feels right to play again, but likewise it doesn't matter if you never touch WOW again. As long as you're happy, it's a win win regardless.

[@Asin24]

Honestly, Wow has been on a decline for me for some time. Legion while a high for many was also where I was realizing it just wasn't doing it for me anymore. It was always a thing I would return to and want to raid. I'd play it and FF14 on and off with wow being my main game, but as time goes on I found myself far more drawn to FF14 for the content and wow just being more an afterthought. BFA and Shadowlands just really killed my interest in wow so much to the point I just don't even really have the passion for it anymore. I played a bit of Dragonflight (only since a friend bought me it) but I have absolutely no hype for the game at all anymore. Even with all the good things they done, it just lacks that magic. It doesn't remotely live up to the hype of FF14 content does for me seeing new fights. FF14 was always usually my side game, but I can't really even say wow now fills that niche or would I want it to fill that niche. I just don't have any interest in it outside playing it in a short burst and then just not touching it again.

[@liquidfox003]

I was also in that wow bubble for long time, watched all the wow news videos, had many alts, was even in a guild with people I liked to play with. But shadowlands was pushing me away from thr game then the controversy... I just quit and never looked back. There are so many other games out there to enjoy. So many completely new experiences To be had.

[@chrislawrence6701]

I like dragonflight and played it for the first month, but I can't go back to having to keep a main + alts. The one character system of FF is just too good for me to ever go back to wow.

[@jsjsjsjs]

In many ways, Shadowlands was to WoW what Season 8 was to GoT.

[@AMVmushroom]

well said. It left a taste so bad you never want to try it again and killed all previous enjoyment.

[@TheHeartlessFour]

💯 I used to marathon GOT regularly, until season 8 came out. I haven’t touched my blu-rays since.

[@NezeruGaming]

If I want good story or social RP, I'll just play FFXIV. If I want a gear grind and build crafting, I'll just play PoE or Destiny 2. If I want challenging PvE content with personal responsibility, I'll just play a singleplayer game. Nothing really interests me to return to WoW when other games can serve more specific niches.

[@Larannis]

I checked out before BFA was over, was sick of the bad story, and I was just tired after over a decade of playing. I am glad to see that so far Dragonflight is good, but I really have to plans on ever comming back.

[@discountronswanson69]

Cannot speak for others, but i know it broken me free of WoW. Played since vanilla. Now, the only real content I enjoy, having anything to do with WoW is you and Xaryu, Pikaboo, and Bellular. WoW as a game for me is over.

[@PrimarchRoboleonFrenchyman]

Lol, it's funny how you say "broken free", I love that slave mindset of WoW (and LoL) players

[@aaronclay4665]

@@PrimarchRoboleonFrenchyman its crazy.......i dont mind if you go back to it now and then, but man.. i played ff11 online for 13 years but when it got bad and was no longer the game i liked i just moved on(i come back once a year to see how the game is and do some stuff).... some people dont know how to let go, and all there self worth is mixed up in one game..

[@janah6473]

@@PrimarchRoboleonFrenchyman Entire comment section is full of "victims". So crazy dramatic.

[@TheDeliciousMystery]

Honestly why would i go back? everyone who made the game i loved is gone and Danusers whole pulling back the curtain on death is a trickledown foreversabotage on narrative. We literally had hearthstones in the afterlife for two years. Who gives two shits at the 47th world ending threat. Oh no if we die we might have to go to ardenweald where you still pay gold to repair your gear, get your auction items from a mailbox its just run by a 3d printed titan+. They can't walk it back. Thats WoW now. Forever. Even without the half a decade of straight scandals that make me not want to give them a single penny of my money let alone time. Its corporate dirtbags putting out a product using the ip i used to care about but the people that made the thing i cared about aren't there anymore. Its just paying to clap and recognise brand while getting more of this cringe narrative and staying on ions purple fever treadmill. Other mmos give me variety and dont feel like they actively spite the player on top of everything else. I loved WoW for a long time but its over the hill and like Halo or something only exists now as a zombie ip. Its getting content because theres still enough custom to make it profitable. Thats it. It shambles along without direction with its villains wrapped, its tales told. It just exists in a state of endless asspulls now until the day profitability drops below a threshold and then its maintenance mode.

[@Caen-MK]

Yep, broken and never coming back. For me it was BFA. I went really hard in legion. Had a great group doing +20s. Then we just mellowed out till BFA hit. Honestly, I can't even remember anything of bfa. It felt so soulless to me with the islands grind and such. After day 3 I just liquidated all my money to wow tokens, took my characters to a special place to log out one final time. I made my peace with the game. Then came the sexual accusations, blitzchung incident, ret conning everything, turning beautiful women into fruit, shitting on Arthas, making Sylvanas a 6head, and dumbing down the game. The soul is gone. Don't care about the raids, don't care how 'great' dragonflight is, don't care what is top Dps or what cool mounts are dropping. For me, it's over. I enjoyed my time, and have some of my fondest memories in vanilla, bc, and wotlk.

[@nathanpurss4582]

The most egregious thing Shadowlands did was try to claim it being "behind everything since WC3" which is just the most bullshit thing. And what they did to Arthas. One of the most iconic video game characters completely shit on by a dude that has a Sylvannas body pillow

[@Deverer93]

I do think it comes down to how Shadowlands with the dragging of feet for fixing systems and the horrendous story destroying a lot of peoples' emotional investment. That and it was probably just a moment of "you've had like 5 2nd chances Blizz, not this time." Combine that with the lawsuit, and ppl just finally felt pushed out or got themselves out. Even if DF is good, ppl still want to see Blizz themselves do good too. But so far it seems like Blizz is not changing so they have no faith in WoW being worth it to come back even if they improve stuff that probably should have happened 5 years ago or more in peoples' eyes.

[@markj.a351]

From a story perspective; Shadowlands ruined near 2 damn decades of story and character development. Dragonflight then introduces the new Disney story of comical non-binary dragons. The feminism pandering also hits way too hard with every leader being female and males are weak, flawed or bumbling morons who need female guidance. From a gameplay: A casual player has the choice of LFR or the hyper toxic m+ environment.

[@campk7970]

It did for me. I still kinda care, but it opened my eyes to how little I cared for the skeleton of wow, and what I really wanted. Especially seeing Dragonflight vs Shadowlands. Even as good of a course correction it is, its still nothing for me to be excited for. Like you said, it broke the hold of nostalgia on me, and now I demand more.

[@danmarshall4812]

I played Wow primarily for mythic plus and heroic raiding (and the occasional early mythic). I made it all the way through the issues of BFA and Shadowlands but the final straw was the quality of the Dragonflight main story, to me it didn't even feel like Warcraft anymore.

[@Trudas00]

Honestly this I cannot understand, I also do exactly that content (m+ Dungeons & Heroic Raiding) and I think SL & DF were okay for that.

[@TakodaMae]

I didn't just quit Wow. I quit Blizzard, probably permanently at this point. I started in vanilla and played through BFA. Blizzard is constantly doing things that disrespect my time and generally being greedy. In the later years, they made me feel really gross with the various harassment scandals, kissing China's butt, and joining the "record profits therefore layoffs" corporate crowd. I'm so much happier playing other games. I don't plan to go back even if Blizzard fixes their leadership issues, and I do not trust them to maintain any sort of quality in their games.

[@UniBlue1000]

As someone who enjoys RPing in MMOs, Shadowlands did irreperable damage to the lore imo. That's also not mentioning how neglected the roleplay community is and will continue to be by Blizzard. Their focus is on systems that complement the thing they do best, combat. That's fine. But it will drive people away. I had lost interest over time, Shadowlands was just the final straw that made me realize I was wasting my time trying to play WoW for the things I enjoyed when other games do it much, much better.

[@LoveIsMurder17]

SL was also the time when I stopped doing RP, like many other players. I'd been such an RP enthusiast since 2010 and put so much time and love in my RP alts on an RP server. I was so invested in the lore and the world and .. those were great times. But when 8.3 and the end of N'zoth happened, I started to lose interest and found the lore to become very silly. This continued with SL, where nothing made any god damn sense and I didn't know what to do in RP. Other people also didn't know, so most of the RP became some boring 'slice of life' stuff and just markets and taverns everywhere. With DF I thought of coming back into the RP scene, but seeing how little there's going on on our RP server now and how many people left for good.. it's demotivating and I don't see the point.

[@KingpinFox]

Shadowlands patch 9.1 killed our guild. Half of them went to classic the rest found alternatives. I went to FF14, it gave me everything I wanted and I see no reason to go back

[@H25Invicta]

I played WoW since 2004 when I was only 7. For most of the time I played I obviously didn't know what I was doing but I started to actually play the game the way its supposed to be played in Cata. I downed my first boss on Heroic in Dragon Soul. Fast forward to BfA and SL, I was 3k rating in M+ and 2.1 in Rated BGs. I loved the Warcraft setting and I'd played WCIII religiously. Warcraft III: Reforged and the BfA-SL degeneration of WoW broke the illusion for me. I felt like a fool for playing these games for so long. I felt betrayed. I rarely watch WoW content anymore, I don't follow the new patch content, and I haven't been subbed since Zereth Mortis.

[@Zoeila]

It's the combination of of shadow lands and shadowbringers. Wows best is no longer good enough. I tried dragonflight and was aghast at the lack of any resolution when you unlock world quests

[@OmegaShanic]

I cannot agree more with this. WoW still wants to tell it's story over the course of an expansion. Final Fantasy realized we deserved better, and delivered.

[@zach6395]

They ruined the core story. You can only retcon so many things until it all comes crashing down. Bigger bad on top of bigger bad. They ruined fucking Arthas, their best character. Shadowlands, in particular, had so many wild paths it could have followed. Each zone should have been shown more love. Garrosh could've and should've been a badass in Maldraxus. Malfurion should've swapped out with Ysera in Shadowlands. Arthas could have been hiding out and on the run from the Jailer for failing him in Icecrown. Kael should have had a much larger role in Revedreath, and maybe have characters like Garithos there, and should have been the place where a lot of Sylvanas story should have occurred. Only Bastion really lived up to expectations with Uther. How cool would it have been to see Varian and Garrosh be forces to team up and wrecking undead in Maldraxus?

[@cammokyle]

The community kinda pushes people away constantly. Wow is amazing to play with friends. Pugging is absolutely disgusting. The community doesn’t allow you to do the things you want. I always give up trying to do mythic plus as soon as it takes over 30 mins to get into a group. 6/8 mythic and Ilvl415 btw. It gets way too obscene to be sitting there for hours just to untime a key so I purely raid logged

[@thareus20]

I found myself in a similar situation. I even have the same ilvl, but my guild literally stopped raiding overnight because, once we did 2/8 Mythic raid, and we moved to Terros and did some ok progress, but no kill, people said there is no point to do more mythic raid bosses because it's just not worth it unless you go hardcore. Therefore, not wanting to lobby myself into another good guild on an Alliance EU server, I just quit... Hoping to see a fresh wow classic or classic+, at least I can enjoy that with my friends.

[@solkar7]

Ive always played other MMOs but wow was the main one for me, until shadowlands. I recognize dragonflight as a good expansion. I just can't seen to play wow for more than an hour before I find anything else to do. 🤷‍♂️

[@mc2010925]

yes it's real... i left and never looked back. me quitting WoW opened up a whole world of games for me. I enjoy other games more with FF14 as the main mmo rolling.

[@Kristers_K]

Game being designed around endgame is what has been killing it for me for a long time. I just can't play an RPG like that where the only purpose is to grind something at max lvl....i just can't, its dull and defeats te whole purpose of an open world RPG where gradual character growth, imersion used to be everything. So making ''fun'' content just wouldn't be enough anyway, when everything outside of the current expansion/patch is completely irrelevant/obsolete...ignored by Blizz and practically skipped. *Endgame only matters if i feel like i've invested time and effort into getting to that point, aka leveling and everything that comes with it.* If the only focus is endgame, it's not a roleplaying game, it's raid/dungeon/whatever simulator.

[@merabledawnspark5827]

Yeah I remember talking this with my mod/friend about it after he was asking about WoW and what was the reason behind me stopping (December and first week on January, I did play as a gift for the expansion). I told them I was uncertain. It just... stopped. Motivation wasn't well at all. He put two and two together that it was because of Shadowlands. For the most part, he had been on FF14 and away from SL and I was in SL trying to have fun, but I didn't. I stopped at the patch with the raid against Sylvanas. Never even did the raid. I just got the glasses and that's it. Then when the accusations happened, I just... stopped fully. I didn't want to play the game anymore and since then outside of that small gap, I didn't return

[@barisaxman2]

I think personally, I found out that after playing FF14 I realised that WoW was never meant for me even though I played most of the recent expansions. I never got into high level raiding, if I did I was bad. I hated doing mythics. I realised I preferred msq story and the more casual nature of FF. So I have no desire currently to return to WoW.

[@GrandMagusDK]

I do still keep up with it a little bit via Bellular and stuff but I don't actually play it. I switched to FF at the start of Stormblood and I really don't regret it. I have been raiding with mostly the same people in FF since early Stormblood and it's just such a nicer experience than I ever had in wow raids. Smaller group, better fights, better class gameplay, just better in every regard. The huge problem I think wow has to me is that without going deep on M+ or atleast Heroic raiding there really is nothing in the game. I don't PvP, I'm not a mount or transmog guy, I play the game for PvE content and WoW can't hold a candle to FF in that regard in my opinion.

[@josegranola7]

absolutely, a huge portion of my friends quit for good in SL, they haven't returned for DF because a lot of them found a new home either be FFXIV, GW2 or even Runescape. A single good expansion isn't enough to redeem blizzard for a lot of people

[@trxe420]

I don't think it was just Shadowlands, it was the combination of BFA + Shadowlands. That is 4 years of pure crap, lies and broken promises. We literally had a crap game for nearly half a decade and meanwhile the devs are telling us we are the one's who are wrong. The only thing that kept the boat floating was classic, but they messed that up too. If Dragonflight came out right after Legion or even right after BFA I think things would have been different. If you even set foot in another MMO like ESO, GW2, LA, FFXIV or whatever during these years you had a better than 50% chance of quitting wow. Who plays games they quit out of frustration? Barely anyone imo.

[@kimaclaret]

I have mulled this over for some time. I started playing WoW back in beta and played through 9.1. I have taken breaks during Cata and WoD, and I've played other games. LOTS of MMOs. Just for context, I belonged to a WoW community, so even though I was playing some, I wasn't "alone". This is the first time I've ever not felt a pull to play WoW again, and I have no idea what could possibly bring me back. Dragonflight looks great, and I'm so happy for my friends who are enjoying it, but the game at it's core is just not fun for more anymore, and it's taken a long time for me to realize that.

[@DTremens1ea1]

This right here is incredibly true, but it also kinda sucks. I found a bunch of games myself that I really REALLY like now, many that address a lot of the things that I heard the people I played with upset at every single day that they logged in to play, and when I suggest them, they're still just in the WoWhole. I'm glad that DF is better, but they still complain about the same stuff as before, lack of things to do outside of the trio(pvp m+ raid), feelings of lore having holes in it, the feeling of being a background character instead of the storymaker, knowing that your effort this season is gonna have to just get COMPLETELY redone for any m+ rewards you have for next season because now you have to get that same item AT A HIGHER ILEVEL!!! It's like you said, glad they're happy, but for me personally, I wish they were happier.

[@gf1917]

@@DTremens1ea1 ​Strange how most of the things they complain about were solved by GW2 and ESO before Legion came out. FF has the gear grind but it's much less emphasized and offers a lot of side activities too.

[@kimaclaret]

​@@DTremens1ea1 I understand that completely! Most of my old friends are those suuuuper casual types that play everyday, but don't do much, and certainly don't engage with the typical WoW endgame content. It's hard when there's something I know that they specifically would love in another game, but their whole life is WoW, so they don't branch out. Even now when DF is supposed to be more time friendly. I do have one story loving friend who has dedicated one day a week to play FFXIV, and they are loving it (in early HW right now). I hope it's a gateway to other games, as well, because they were very young when they got hooked on WoW.

[@maxwell4322]

I dont think WOW can fix its problems with more content now. There was a time when it could, but that time has passed. I think ppl realized that "You Can't step into the same River Twice" Shadowlands made it clear that that old Nostalgic WoW is gone and it's never coming back. It allowed alot of ppl to let go of what they had clung on to for so long. And the majority has moved on. I think Wows other big issue is attracting New Players. It's just isn't on par with Newer Games and gameplay and experience that it will bring in the surges of new players. The majority of ppl getting into wow are people who were previously there and ofc numbers will dwindle. Realistically what can wow offer that other games haven't been at the forefront for years? Like housing? They are about 8-10 years behind on that. Dragon riding?Guild. WArs puts that to shame. It's not new and it's not fresh. They have alot of catching up to do and if they do start adding those things it will just be an introductory feature while other games had that years and years ago and have already progressed that feature.

[@skyex4701]

Shadowlands is the reason I won’t even try to enjoy dragonflight…. Looking back it was the nail in the coffin and it was my first go with Wow…

[@starwolven]

World of Warcraft: 2003-2023. The game is dead now. It passed through the shadowlands. What exists is a farce: A shadow of it's former self. I was loyal since the start until SL. I never went back and that was a great decision as there is much better out there.

[@TheHeartlessFour]

I would agree with that. How much lore it ruined, how badly it abused my time as a player. It was the final straw. I’ve moved on from WoW

[@slytherben]

Lore. I enjoyed the game. But LOVED lore. The Chronicle Books were a literal BIBLE for millions of us. We read them over and over and debated the books like medieval theologians. Danuser. Killed. It. All. Danuser killed out WoW mythology and religion

[@Tekuroshi]

I can only talk for myself, but yeah 100%. I don't give any F's at all anymore I tried dragonflight it was ok'ish. I don't know if it's because I played evoker or because I had no plans or guild to raid or even if I need a good story to stay invested now that I did FF14. The fact is I did level at launch capped and just stopped playing and never looked back.

[@kelathos]

It would take too many words to describe how BFA failed WoW and my love for the game. Shadowlands turned that bitter disappointment into hatred. I hated Shadowlands and Torghast. Now my guild is gone, my WoW friends list is empty. There is nothing to go back to. WoW would have to be not just okay, not just good. It would need to perform a miracle. Because if I ever have to choose between WoW and FF14, you know which one is going to lose. And it is not even close.

[@UninterestingASMR]

Shadowlands has tarnished WoW's reputation forever. Not only will people not give them another chance, despite how good DF is, people who play MMO's who don't even play WoW know how bad it was. Pessismistic, maybe...but Blizz will never recover fully from SL.

[@smashi4088]

I quit in shadowlands and started raiding in FF, and even after coming back for DF and getting vault of the incarnates CE now i just kinda cba anymore. The draw of wow to me over other mmos was always raiding, and now I honestly just enjoy raiding in ff14 more. And, wow's casual content is still the same grindy reputation bar filling experience that it's always been, compared to ff14's casual stuff which (at least in my opinion) has much more thought and effort put into it

[@mebrandonb]

I played Dragonflight up until a month ago. I wasn't really impressed but my friends just wont play any other game. GW2 just ticks all the boxes for me, FF14 story is awesome, but wow... needs more than raids and M+ to hold my attention any more. The mythic raid lockouts, the cross realm restrictions, the catalyst being delayed...Just let me play the game man lol And honestly, regrinding bis gear every tier just doesn't seem fun anymore. Truthfully I'm not sure if it was ever actually fun. Getting space away from the game during Shadowlands really exposed that for me.

[@adamosborne9440]

BfA was the downturn. SL broke my WoW addiction. I tried DF on launch but...eh... its over for me. So many other great games out there.

[@TheElviz86]

"Loving and Hating a game are like 2 degrees off from each other and they both come from passion - from people who are highly engaged. The opposite of loving a game - the thing that will kill your game - is apathy." - Destiny 2 Developer And thats where i am at with WoW. Complete apathy. I dont fucking care anymore. Maybe in 2 or 3 expansions i will try it out again, just for fun, but never the way i used to.

[@plainlyJaren]

Bfa and shadowlands clearly communicated to me that I was no longer in the target audience. I had already tried FFXIV twice, I made it past the first few dungeons in the past but it never hooked me. I decided to give it another chance shortly after shadowlands launched and I fell in love this time. I found a new home. Even though I've heard nothing but praise about dragonflight I just don't have interest.

[@Emidretrauqe]

Shadowlands was the second Cataclysm. The game will never reach that level of interest again.

[@Skyblade12]

The second WoD. BfA was the second Cataclysm.

[@boo.1337]

I quit ffxiv to go back to wow for SL, then SL pushed me back to xiv right around the time I was getting to shadowbringers and I realized how awful wow had become, I don't even have the battlenet launcher on my pc anymore

[@sephrinx4958]

Well, yeah. That's because it did. The mass exodus to FFXIV was a definitive nail in the coffin for WoW in a lot of way. Why do you think they're doing all these promotions, free weekends, recruit a friend, ads all over instagram, snapchat, etc. They are desperately trying to get players back. I hope it works, DF is a great expansion, and the game is going in the direction it should have never steered away from after MoP.

[@RasnerG]

I wouldnt say great, but Ok the story is simple since if they mess it up again it will kill the game itself again, wow has amazing lore but the storytelling right now is lacking, by far no borrowed power yet, but now we have that new ring and those new gems that will be our new "legendary" easy to grin but will be obsolete next tier or next expansion, they still have to refine de formula, DF is an ok expansion but not a great one

[@gf1917]

The thing is, why you purchase and sub to WoW for an expansion's .0 patch's worth of content when you have all the content to enjoy at your own pace for free or a low entry fee in GW2, ESO or FF14 (including the award-winning Heavensward expansion)? WoW is a good game but not an outstanding MMO towering above the market anymore, other MMOs have built themselves up while WoW's been slacking.

[@Skyblade12]

@@RasnerG WoW HAD amazing lore. Shadowlands threw all that lore away.

[@Crowback354]

Gameplay is still stagnant and boring since BFA. Systems are bad and boring, lack of small group content that isn't just doing the same dungeon on repeat over and over. Gearing is magically still shitty, upgrading your gear feels meaningless, class design and balance is still horrible in both pve and pve. There is just absolutely no reason to play this game single player and multiplayer games including other mmorpgs all do it way better in everyway. Blizzard has not innovated or change WoW in a meaningful way at all and it's showing the game is just old and boring.

[@JH68er]

Yes, I don't give a single fuck anymore. Still watching your videos on the game, I just cant bring myself to play it anymore.

[@Bougsiminator]

Shadowlands indeed hurt WoW massively longterm. But what really hurt Wow is the fact, that a large part of the "decent" community went away/stopped playing somewhere in the past ~4-6 years or so. At least in Germany. I tried to find a semi-progress guild with 2 raid evenings and "normal" human people since BfA and never found anything fitting. I went through like 8 guilds in 4 years and had trial raids in like 4 more and either you have a bunch of grey loggers, standing in every puddle and not beeing able of even clearing NHC, if the entire raid had their skill level or you find decent players who are human trash. The time where a group of people comes together to archieve something AND is basically a group of friends while also beeing decent at the game is over. I than siwtched to M+ only, because I wanted a group, playing ~3 evenings a week pushing for 20+ keys. I went through 5 groups in a month and had the same thing. Bad players or bad humans. And of course there is all the drama... I'm done with MMOs. I'm too old for this shit.

[@balover214]

I agree with you, Mike. I was a WoW-only player since Vanilla and never really cared to play anything else. I had a group of friends who would hang out and discuss lore and storylines and what would happen next. When SL hit, and all the scandals along with it, I took a break and went to join some other friends in FFXIV. After playing 14, I am spoiled for a good game. WoW feels crappy in comparison, after coming back for Dragonflight. The DF gameplay reminds me of WotK and Legion, which I loved at the time, but the story and style have lost me. So now, slogging my way through DF zones, I have literally no feeling or connection to anything that is happening. I am never having a moment like..."I have to see where this goes!! I need to know what happens next!", which I constantly feel when playing through 14 from Heavensward on, anxiously awaiting the "a series of cutscenes will play..."moment where I will learn the next big thing to happen to my npc friends. I guess I never realized how bad of a game (storywise) WoW was, and how much that really affects what I see as I play, until I tried out other stuff. I will probably keep playing DF for awhile longer, but my heart just isn't in it anymore. The rose-colored glasses are gone, and the WoW nostalgia is just a relic of days gone by.

[@Orthane]

SL was easily the worst expansion. It completely ruined the lore and story. Steve Danuser is probably the worst writer I have ever seen. So many characters completely butchered, so many old storylines ruined... and the gameplay was also dogshit. SoD might be one of the worst raids in the game. SL did hurt WoW forever because of just how bad it was.

[@thomasblake8504]

Of course Shadowlands will hurt WoW forever. The expansion of the lore just broke the story forever. Absolutely nothing works anymore lorewise. The whole thing with the Jailer 6D plan and the rewriting of the Titans to insert the First Ones just broke the lore. And they did Arthas dirty. Also it was a dogshit expansion.

[@AbeLinkoln5002]

I started playing in classic off and on through the years as life permitted. I really enjoyed getting to know the people I raided with and guildmates. I even met my wife in WoW during Mists of Pandaria so it has been a long road. The end for me was in Warlords of Draenor and that heap of a failure expansion. I tried legion for a bit with a trial and it just didn't interest me then the issues with BFA/SL just made it more apparent that my time in wow was done for good. I wouldn't say I am sad about it as it was all completely worth it in my eyes. It was more of my time to depart and many of my friends did as well.

[@treybagley4024]

Yeah hes probably right. Dragonflight is incredible but not everyone will give it a chance like people used too.

[@Emidretrauqe]

Especially people like me who hate end game gear treadmills and just want to relax...

[@DawnAfternoon]

They have years of lost trust. It'll take years of good expansions and directions to start regaining them.

[@neugassh3570]

Incredible 😂😂😂

[@someguy9970]

"Incredible" lmao. Yeah, only a mazed addict can think Dragonflight is "incredible".

[@jacobmoore4493]

@@someguy9970 I quit WoW cause of Shadowlands, played since being a young child and SL killed me off in the next 5 hours. It's hard to say "incredible" in the sense of being an absolutely fantastic game, but it's incredible in the fact that it seems they're listening now. It would be incredible if they kept up this trend of listening into the further expansions, I say that as someone who thought they'd never play retail again for a solid 2-3 years

[@NemXX2]

I have said it before and i will say it again. Legion killed WoW. BfA, Shadowlands and still Dragonflight... it is all the continuation of the design philosophies from Legion. It might've been the rolling out of the old guard, i don't know. Legion killed WoW. I knew it back then when we were still in WoD and hardly anyone saw it (i had beta). I was dreading that pre-patch cause i knew what was coming. I burned out in Legion. I came back and i kept playing the game. I still do. But, i play it for the people, not for the game. If FF was to the liking of everyone's sensibilities i would never play WoW again and what happened with WoW is i stopped caring. The devs wounded me so many time and still do it these days always trying to come up with their crappy systems such as group loot and the upcoming loot system. But no matter, i do not think WoW is gonna last much longer. They burned too many bridges and still do to this day. Even in DF the game is super buggy (patch is out today and some talents aren't even working), M+ is frustrating (world of swirlies), Raid is unrewarding (group loot, super rare drops), overworld is super grindy. The game is simply not fun and the devs try really hard to make it as unrewarding as possible in this insane atempt to keep us strung to it. For example they think putting super rare items in raid will make people run the raid over and over rather than just give up and spare themselves the misery. They are hellbent in wanting to make their game a casino that wastes your time like there isn't anything else to play these days. They think they are still in that time where WoW was the best there was and there were no alternatives. That time has gone, but the devs still haven't realized it. Let us have fun. Season 4 of SL was super fun. I don't need you to try and force me to log on. I will do so if i am having fun. Yet, here we are again. They can't take a win, even when they get it.

[@sirbear9396]

Did you not pay attention to the SL trailer? Sylvanas said she would set us all free... and so she did.

[@kaimeraprime]

Shadowlands was so disrespectfull to players time and was such a wast story wise that i did not even play after 1st raid teir hell i dont even have it installed now. on top of all the drama arount assaults and sexual abuse around blizzard made people quit and try other games i.e FFxiv / guildwars 2/elderscrolls. Once you do and you see how much games like FFXIV respect there players time. It turned my appathy to WoW into actualy contempt for how Blizzard treats its players. i have heard this from other former WoW players as well that going over to FFXIV was like a revelation as to how bad WoW had become.

[@tackjens]

Hes right about shadowlands have hurt the wow story forever

[@zombiejesus7445]

I agree.. but what percent of players pre-shadowlands played WoW for the story? I could assume it would be >10% of the player-base. I think it was that SL was a copy of BFA with Grindy system over system to get to the point that you can do the "fun stuff". Making it feel like a 50h job to finally have fun for the weekend before going back to work.

[@Emidretrauqe]

Let's just say I found the story barely tolerable in BFA and now I can't stand any of it. Especially not any of the characters that were involved in Shadowlands. They all make me sick.

[@tackjens]

@@Emidretrauqe I still found enjoyment in bfa loved the Zandalar stuff but yeah...the sylvanas story was just anoying, becuse it made no seens for my troll to even lissen to that corps,

[@Emidretrauqe]

Yeah, the Kul'Tirans and Zandalari side was like the sweetener that they mixed into some cheap bottom shelf whiskey. They were what made the rest tolerable. Shadowlands was just drinking the whiskey straight.

[@Skyblade12]

@@zombiejesus7445 A lot more people care about the story that everyone thinks. The story IS the IP. People didn't try Shadowlands because "ZOMG, Covenants are amazing", they did it because "ZOMG, Sylvanas vs Lich King".

[@Slashresto]

Persoanlly i belive WoW went downhill with Legion. While Legion did some things insanely well like DH was so much fun , M+ was great and the new voice covers for quests was great but class design , legendarys etc was very offputting.... and for me personally the redesign of Mistweaver was the biggest mistake they ever done.... But yea WoW is to modern and raids / M+ are way to difficult for players who hasnt played in many years... its so hard to get back into wow if u didnt play for an expansion or two and this didnt used to be the case, u used to be able to login to the game and almost always be able to pick it up and compete within a few hours... Now you get overwhelmed the moment u login... 200+ systems to catch up on... classes doesnt have a simple design and everything is overcomplicated

[@Kikkia2018]

SL's failure definitely added to the reason why WoW has been ruined for me, but I think times have changed. WoW used to be my life pretty much, I joined later than others (Cata) but I was still young when I started and grew up with it. Now as an adult, I realized I can't play as much as I used to, and I don't enjoy playing WoW casually. Though the daily chores have improved, I have no motivation to log on to do anything anymore. I had max characters and most of them were max level back in WoD/Legion. I burnt myself out by playing everything. But now, I have finally quit WoW, and I feel free. I play multiple games now and do not feel the need to log onto them every day/week. I've taken a huge break from FF14 too but I know I will come back for a new patch. WoW patches don't feel as exciting. Dragonflight was fun for a week until I realized I had to do M+ (which I don't like) and LFR (which I didn't have enough gear for) because I don't have time to do a full raid -- I wanted to do neither. The only reason I want to play WoW is to raid, and I don't have a guild anymore, nor do I have 3-4 straight hours of free time. I thought I could never escape the want to play WoW, I kept coming back and wasting money on a subscription just to play for a few hours, but Dragonflight killed that somehow -- even though it seems to have a lot of improvements.

[@Waybackwhennn]

There's a new end game island for lvl 70 newbies/alts to farm gear so you can easily get the ilvl req to join LFR, i'm fairly new and gonna be doing my first LFR soon wasn't too complicated.

[@Scribeprime]

My return to wow experience was this Joined my first random dungeon Said hello to the group Got told to go fuck myself Left Playerbase remaining is also part of the problem I feel, you compare wow community to FFXIV or Gw2 and you see just how bad wow is

[@Alexisilver]

I've fallen into Raidlogging in Dragonflight. Stuff comes up, you get busy, you know how it goes. But like, even when I have free time I'm not playing Dragonflight because I literally _do not know_ what to do in the expansion outside of raiding and M+

[@Emidretrauqe]

That's because there isn't anything anymore. There is unironically more to do in vanilla than there is in dragonflight.

[@Fabriciod_Crv]

@@Emidretrauqe that's false lmao, vanilla you got: 1. an absolutely inhumane grind (Rank 14) 2. raid logging.

[@Emidretrauqe]

90% of vanilla was levelling in an expansive, varied, _highly replayable_ open world. If you're doing the hardcore challenge you can up that 100%.

[@Rhob81]

@@Fabriciod_Crv Big and expansive leveling, gold farming in Tyr's Hand, essence farming to craft Lionheart Helm or Lifegiving cloak, Furbolg and other reps for recipes, world PvP in Tarren Mill/Southshore, arcane crystals farm for Arcanite Reaper, exploring all the zones and easter eggs... All of these things can seem boring/grindy by today's standards, but the fact that they took place in a living breathing world made them so much more enjoyable than the current theme park.

[@Fabriciod_Crv]

@@Rhob81 so basically all the same stuff i can already do in dragonflight, but with worse systems, worse traversal, worse classes and worse pacing. Got it, i’ll keep that in mind while doing my dragon races, varied world quests, M+, transmog/mount farming and leveling through zones and expansions that have an actual storyline.

[@James-kv3ll]

A game that was king of the genre getting humbled because the devs went too far with their experimental design choices and then finally returning embrace the game’s strengths is a good thing for that game. Shadowlands HELPED WoW become a better game in the end. Sure it lost relevancy and popularity, but since when was popularity the sole indicator of whether a game is good or not. Plenty of amazing games out there that aren’t popular. Just look at GW2, mike’s latest adventure/content cow. Good game, not popular. Shadowlands also helped the mmo genre. Pretty obvious why.

[@hush9185]

ill never play wow again, ill just watch from a distance

[@hush9185]

also I refuse to give blizzard any money

[@PrimarchRoboleonFrenchyman]

Beware of the other thing you put money into then, you might get few surprises 🤭

[@Skyblade12]

@@PrimarchRoboleonFrenchyman At least the other companies won't tell me "the Horde is waiting for me".

[@FantogemeStudios]

World of Warcraft (and Blizzard as a whole) makes me wants to projectile vomit most of the time. I like watching Preach and others for various other things (Drama Time in particular is good fun) but WoW itself? Fuck it. Fuck it to hell and back.

[@Koudellka255]

I played WoW for 13-14 years took BFA to finally kill it for me. Much happier where i am now.

[@jibrilles]

I just can't go back. After being away, the characters and the armor just looks SO OLD and bad :(

[@Morg2851]

I used to immerse myself in the world of Azeroth and enjoyed the lore. That's impossible now with the mistreatment of the franchise, it's writing, history and characters. It happened before with WoD, and it has caused so much damage to the game that I'd bet it would never happen again. With Legion they even seemed to realize their mistake. Then BfA and Shadowlands happened. Even the loooong final patches 4.3 and 5.4 and the ideas behind legiondaries were tolerable in comparison to what the freaking Helm of Domination ended up becoming. A shame.

[@melissas4874]

I tried DF and lasted like a month? Regardless of what they say, a lot of things feel mandatory which isn't fun. Part of it is the new crafting system since some recipes require a very high renown plus running heroic raids - so by the time I could make the item it would be useless for the iLvL.

[@junglecack]

It's true. I've played every single expansion, got to max level, took a little break and came back before the next expansion hit and dabbled in lfr so I could see the raids and such. After shadowlands , I don't know if I'll ever come back. After shadowlands something was missing, I couldn't tell you what it is to be honest. I never played enough to do torgahst or have to worry about borrowed power. But something in there ruined wow for me. When dragonflight came out I told myself I wasn't going to play since I didn't think I hit max level at the end of shadowlands, but once I checked up on the armory and saw that I was indeed max level... I just didn't want to jump back in.

[@Obironnkenobi]

This is true. Shadowlands decimated the fanbase. I have at least 2 dozen friends who stopped playing and even though Dragonflight is good, won't even give it a chance and I honestly can't blame them. Shadowlands was a slap in the face and people aren't just going to suffer through and hope the next expansion is better. Blizzard will need to pull out a major upgrade in the follow up to Dragonflight and even then there's no promises that people will give it a shot.

[@gf1917]

And friends stopping to play is the start of an avalanche. The best moments of WoW for me were wiping in BFD, PvPing in Stranglethorn or just chilling next to a campfire in Mulgore under the good old dark sky with friends. Without them it's all just worthless pixels, zeros and ones that will one day be gone when the servers are turned off.

[@Esotaric08]

WoW's shit campaign quest at the start of BFA and FF14's great MSQ (heavensward onwards) didn't help either

[@Thrano]

Oddly enough, 9.0 was one of the best times I had in the game. I liked it genuinely and probably would've played the rest of the xpac if I didn't get dragged into a raid group that split 15 minutes after clearing the raid for the first time.

[@ruffnarbobnar5960]

I remember when wow launched. Good friend of mine didn't like the game all that much. We both liked mmo's that you had to think a bit on. Acherons call if you just started building randomly your character would be a gimp. Anarchy online. Similar... Anyway I loved wow when it launched for what it did. It brought me into the world of warcraft. We all played the rts warcrafts and loved them... I told my bud just play it for what it is. The world of warcraft. We played for many years I ended up buying the collectors edition to Cata. Without even caring about the direction of the game. A few weeks in I just stopped playing. I missed pandaland and wod I came back I guess midway into legion. There were things I didn't like about legion but for the most part it was fun. Everything after that has just felt like a chore. I stopped playing a few weeks into bfa came back for SL really disliked that steaming pile. Ended up playing with my old school buds about 5 months into classic relaunch and had a blast. Didn't hit the first raid but I ended up having every crafter you could get maxed more or less and spent my time playing the auction house and crafting. Something I didn't do at all in og classic. Stopped playing again Df was being teased and the thing that actually made me mad was the new race. The idea was cool I could stomach that human form wasn't your choice. But dragon form not having the armor you are wearing just screamed lazy to me. I get it they would have to make all new models from all the armor previously oh wait no dragon race can only be evoker so no they wouldn't have to remake all the old armors from plate down to cloth. You get what I'm saying. Now I have a bud at work that keeps telling me how great it is and he is having fun with wow again for the first time in years. I subbed to play logged in one day didn't do a single expac quest, that time burned up when it charged for a new month I played a few days on a new toon. Not the evoker just a new monk, I couldn't do it. I hate to say it I have loved the lore the feel almost everything about the world of warcraft to some extent over the years. But it just feels like the game is not for me anymore. The world feels hollow now. Who knows maybe I'll play dragonflight at some point, they took so much out of the game and so say most of it is back in the game like talent trees. I can say this I have been playing turtle wow for awhile now and it actually feels like the "World of warcraft". I have never written a long winded post like this but this crap just hits home. I don't want retail wow to feel like a hollow soulless shell but it is what it is.

[@JoshHolden-Aka-evani]

He's not wrong, i've played Wow since BC all the time. BFA left a bad taste in my mouth and Slands put me on a knifes edge. When they made the world boss mounts common AF i just threw in the towel it was the straw that broke the camels back. I tried DF it's good but i just lost any care i had for the game. Yes me losing interest over other people getting rare mounts easily is probably toxic or what ever you want to label it i get it, it's my issue but it's an issue that i had so i just removed myself from the game and have been much happier playing all the other amazing games made over the last 15 years that i have ignored due to playing wow.

[@brosirs]

SL lost people, DF didn't do enough to bring a lot of them back. People who consider returning look at wowhead and can quickly see that the current "philosophy" as Ion and Morgan like to talk about is: * They don't respect your time - getting guaranteed tier is delayed so you're best starting 10 weeks into the tier * They want you on a dopamine treadmill - raid super-rare items that some people will go all expansion never seeing, lack of deterministic loot * They want to force social interaction and RNG in crafting - previously you would craft exactly what you expected and sell it on the AH, now you have to try multiple times to craft what you hope for and sell it through trade chat spam * They want you to use talents you don't like - new tier forcing unpopular choices without understanding they're unpopular for a reason * They don't understand m+ - random additional mechanics that interact poorly with orchestrated mechanics is LAZY, it's not fun or challenging, it's LAZY These are all things that can be fixed, but it feels like an 11.0, or a change of leadership thing that's required really. It should not take a whole expansion to understand what people want and be able to deliver it.

[@AMVmushroom]

agreed. a change of leadership is sorely needed at this point. You can see they have no interest besides the current treadmill that a lot of people are tired of.

[@Profato]

A lot of things play into this. Every expansion really is the same loop. You gear your character, get achievements, kill bosses, then start over. When I started raiding in Cata, this gameplay loop was great, getting BiS for the first time was amazing in Firelands. Mists of Pandaria was peak for me, but after doing this loop over and over for a few years you just dont get the same excitement from it. You get older and even if the game is great, you dont see it with the same eyes. I'm pretty sure that if I showed 19 year old me Shadowlands when I was playing back in Cata my head would explode.

[@330DKNY]

This is it really, they haven't added anything new to the game in years.

[@gf1917]

@@330DKNY I don't think they should add anything for the endgame progression loop. They tried it in the previous few expansions and all it did was add extra chores on top of the proven gear progression. I 100% agree with Mike that what they should focus on is casual activities. Make Azeroth a world we want to spend our time in again, not a workplace we enter to achieve a goal and then leave. Now that people have had the latter perception already it will be MUCH more difficult to undo it compared to if they just jumped to DF from the farms and serpent races of Pandaria.

[@Profato]

I still love the game, but I dont play as much anymore. Its like a second home I visit from time to time.

[@hunterofpeace9840]

Looking back, my friends and I were burned out by the endless treadmill of BFA. We likely would have quit before SL were it not for season 4 being as fun as it was (we all had a blast goofing around with corruptions). Now none of us are just playing one game, but are instead moving between several. I would not be surprised if WoW ends up back in the rotation eventually. However, it will not be during Dragonflight.

[@ThermalX90]

I watch the stream because I enjoy the community, I think you're a great streamer and a lot of fun to watch. But I am now in the boat of I don't care about WoW that much anymore. I played for a very long time, but since bfa my interest and game time has gone down to what now is 0. I moved on to more MMO's, now playing FF and GW2 among others.edit: I am very glad about what has happened to WoW, it may end up being better for their game in the future but it opened up so much for other MMO's. It was so good for FF and even GW2, and others. It was good for the MMO community to open their eyes to what amazing things exist in other games.

[@crepuscular]

when you reached end game, pretty much all you do in GW2 is 1. have a L80 of every class with all the elite specs unlocked 2. doing raid / wvw / pvp for legendary gears 3. open world metas for materials and gold for crafting the legendaries, and also for chance of high rolling an infusion that's worth thousands of gold. use the event timer "/wiki et" in chat to plan out what your own meta you want to run. my typical day on my day when I'm off work is at daily reset (10/11am for me) is Tequatl -> Pinata -> Chak Gerent -> Home instance and guild hall gathering, Pact Supply Network Agents -> Dragon Storm -> Drakkar -> lunch break -> Karka Queen -> Verdant Brink Matriarch -> Icebrood Saga Strikes -> Auric Basin Octovine, then after this I go do PvP to get the daily win done, take break do other random things until my WvW commander comes online for 2-3 hours of WvW. On days I do have work, I would drop off a few of those metas, but Tequatl, Pinata, Dragon Storm, Matriarch, looting AB is a must for me.