President Coin Is ACTUALLY Lucy Grey Baird | Hunger Games Film Theory

[@SuperCarlinBrothers]

Yes we accounted for the "apparent" age difference 😂

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

You guys are great🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤

[@iimax_9135]

Will you be doing a hunger games characters sorted into Hogwarts houses video?

[@michaelodonnell824]

No - You didn't, because there is one other factor about Coin's age you didn't account for - there was a disease swept through 13, mainly affecting Children, and Coin "lost" her child in it - and she wasn't a sixty year old mom....

[@cococovers1333]

@@iimax_9135 I think we can all agree katniss is a gryffindor

[@Gummyz25]

@@michaelodonnell824we don’t know how old her child was. They could have been an 18 year old or older

[@Salamon2]

This theory just demands too much suspension of disbelief. I am much more inclined to believe Alma is Lucy's daughter... heck Snow and Lucy's daughter, whose mother raised her to hate her father.

[@AuthorZaraHoffman]

Agreed

[@Magenta4ever]

That's definitely what I expected while reading it

[@gothamwarrior]

@@griphookflitwick4565I thought that the Justice League used the Quantum Portal to perform inception on Galdalf.

[@piercetaliaferro5393]

How would Snow and Lucy have had a daughter?

[@brynniefresh9746]

i also thought that

[@Huebz]

I’m amazed we jumped through so many hoops on Coins age instead of the much more obvious choice…Coin is Lucy’s daughter.

[@binkbaf]

Not so absurd. Snow poisoned himself over the years. Its great how deep the creator went in reasoning out things though.

[@thewitchiebunny]

I feel like it would make more sense for Alma to be Lucy Gray's daughter avenging her mother against the man who tried to kill her and hurt her so badly.

[@darkman80723]

I feel like that is a lot more likely.

[@ronanh.9261]

yea

[@jkmacrunnel]

I was going to say the same thing!

[@shannonpatch7233]

Was Lucy Gray pregnant when she fled to 13 and Snow is Alma’s father???

[@arfym2581]

I doubt that. I imagined it was her daughter by someone after she arrived there. Not related to Snow at all.

[@leezus7875]

I think it makes more sense to think that Lucy married a district 13 man named Coin and President Coin is their daughter. Explains the age gap and why she knows Snow so well.

[@iantha999]

Or she is pregnant from snow the moment they depart from eachother in the forest.

[@nuotatorre8741]

​@@iantha999In the book it's never emplayed intimacy betwin Snow and Lucy Grey. The latter would be also be very carefull to not endup pregnat, since she is already struggling to survive with the Covey and an other mouth to feed might be a problem

[@iantha999]

@@nuotatorre8741 does it need to be implied though?

[@nuotatorre8741]

@@iantha999 Yes... otherwise Lucy would have never ended up pregant by Snow

[@thewitchiebunny]

Coin was married herself, so that's likely not even her maiden name.

[@meatballhead15]

The one thing that could basically make the theory work even with the age difference is that Coin is Lucy Grey's daughter. Lucy Grey made it to 13, had a daughter, an told her EVERYTHING, and she grew up to seek revenge on The Capitol and Snow.

[@MasterTMO]

I'd come down to the comments to make this same suggestion.

[@thomaswarner5904]

This was my thought

[@WendyDahling3]

Maybe Lucy was pregnant with Snow’s child. Coin as that child, could be honoring her mother by seeking revenge against her father Snow and by giving a subtle nod to her mother by wearing gray/Grey.

[@gildedbear5355]

This is my thought as well (though admittedly my knowledge comes exclusively from Carlinbrother's videos 8)

[@whome6533]

I came to the comments just to see if this was where others were think this. It made sense in my head that a bard by trade would tell their children their last through elaborate stories and fine details. Coin would have grown up knowing Snows weaknesses and may have grown to hate her mother for what she perceived as weakness for not killing snow when she had the chance. Because of that Coin went the exact opposite of her musically inclined mother to rigid.

[@lizrose8601]

I personally believe that Maude Ivory was Katniss' grandmother and that Coin could've been Lucy Gray's child after she made it to district 13. I especially see it in Coin's final speech before Katniss is suppose to finish off Snow. We've never seen Coin be so theatrical so maybe she was reveling in her mother's memory and spirit before avenging her. I believe that maybe they did have music when Coin was growing up. But after her daughter and husband died (and probably Lucy Gray too) from the small pox epidemic in 13 she could've grown cold, not seeing a reason to continue having music or celebrations. Although I do believe that the gray suits in 13 is a textile conservation situation it could also be a constant reminder of what Coin's fighting for, for Lucy GRAY.

[@MrsMoz]

this is the best theory and there are no replies...weird...

[@celestegrubbs3910]

There’s also a theory that Maude ivory is Katniss’s grandma. Which would add to her knowing so many of Lucy grays songs

[@brandibastian4193]

I figure why she knew so many of Lucy Gray's songs is cuz they went down in Panam history. I feel like for kids of katniss's time That would be like her mom singing songs to her to get her to go to sleep. That maybe her mom saying to her as a child that might have been popular when the grandma was a kid. You know when Lucy was around

[@kevinm1317]

​@@brandibastian4193Many of the songs Katniss knows are written by the Covey, and not likely popularized. The Hanging Tree in particular was sung only once publicly (at the Peacekeeper commander's birthday?) and the Covey was told not to sing it anymore because it was too dark. I think Deep in the Meadow was also created by Lucy Grey for Maude Ivory. It's all but confirmed Katniss is somehow related to Covey, and Imo the most realistic theory is Maude Ivory, due to her ability to memorized songs after hearing them only once.

[@brandibastian4193]

@@kevinm1317 honestly I feel like it got popular specifically because it was not supposed to be song anymore kind of like in the end of the first Harry Potter movie when Harry wakes up in the hospital wing and starts asking questions Dumbledore says everyone's fine and of course what happened between you and professor quirrell in the chamber of course is a complete secret which means naturally the whole school knows

[@triciaa7259]

Nope. How did Katniss have the knowledge of Lucy's song and other connections? And your age difference explanation is a stretch at best. Also, you are suggesting that Lucy completely changed her personality. No color. Everything measured out. No art, no music, no whimsy or folktales. I feel like she'd rather die than live in a place like 13.

[@caitlynburke7607]

I think this theory makes the most sense

[@gurujimmy4536]

I love these theories. My opinion of Lucy grey and Snow’s final scene in the woods is that Lucy grey ran away because she thought the third person Snow killed was going to be her.

[@mr.baselineart8658]

If that were to be what she thought I think it would’ve added a nice touch to their final encounter

[@fitp74]

No I believe she ran away because he lied. And they swore to never lie and he got his best friend killed.

[@ΑφροδίτηΡουτση-β4δ]

Lucy knew who the 3rd person was.

[@natejablonski]

Requesting a theory about why Tigris, the cousin of Coirolanus Snow who likely brought fashion to the Hunger Games, came to side with the rebellion.

[@scottstout7595]

That was implied in the books that she hated the monster that her beloved cousin became. That and the issue that he was responsible for her not being a designer anymore and reduced to working a small shop

[@ShirleyLestrade]

Yes! I’ve always wondered this since reading Ballad

[@josephjeavons6517]

I second that

[@lucygarrett9785]

I feel like it’s pretty self explanatory. She loved her cousin but he changed after twelve. I imagine things were rocky after he was basically adopted by the Plinth’s. After their grandmothers death there probably just wasn’t anything left holding them close, he had changed too much.

[@Matt-id5mi]

@@scottstout7595 not only that, he fired and basically blacklisted her for being ,”too ugly”

[@kayv8593]

I actually think she isn’t Lucy Grey, I think she’s her daughter. Not only that but I think she may be the daughter of Snow as well. It would explain her hatred of him for trying to kill her mother, as well as her extreme similarities to him and them being two sides of the same coin. She’d also likely have all the knowledge about how to get under his skin as she would have learnt it from her mother. Her use of the Mockingjay could also not only be to get to Snow but as a way of honouring her mother by using the bird that represented her as the symbol of the rebellion. Plus it explains the age difference, with her being slightly older than Katniss believes, due to the reasons you laid out, but still being roughly 18 years younger than Snow.

[@Kidlauren15]

How would it be snow kid?

[@corey6158]

loll right. I guess they missed the part of the book where he shot her in the woods and then returned to the Capitol.@@Kidlauren15

[@anonmouse2253]

Not to mention the silver hair

[@chanmarr8118]

@@anonmouse2253 What does silver hair have to do with anything? Her hair was clearly black that grayed with age.

[@chanmarr8118]

@@corey6158 I seriously think a lot of these comments are made by kids who don’t know how having a child works 😂 Nowhere in the book did it imply they slept together. It would make more sense if Lucy Gray survived and had a child with someone else.

[@EdmundSnow98]

I always believed that Lucy Grey Baird was Katniss' grandmother. Another theory is that Coin is a secret love child of Snow and Lucy Grey.

[@jtpadilla1]

Yea this oddly enough was what I thought… that Coin was Lucy Greys daughter… it’s the description of the grey eyes since grey eyes are seam eyes

[@frostbite88]

I have always thought that Katnis’ grandmother was Ivory

[@Ashely56]

That makes more sense with the age difference and would account for how she know all about Coin but has an entirely different personality to Lucy

[@Twix_loves_domo]

That would lowkey make the story more tragic. Like both mother and daughter dead before the aggressor 😢

[@mienfu9824]

Did Snow actually sleep with Lucy while they were dating in District 12?

[@kerrypeterson554]

Although katniss may not have seen an 80 year old in district 12, she is in the 75th HG arena with Mags (who won the 11th HG games at 16, a year after Lucy) who is 80 during that game and who Katniss describes as "elderly".

[@ericahamel4404]

Yeah but she knows how old mags is from knowing when her game was right?

[@neen2660]

Fishermen be out in the sun

[@folkloreuh]

They don’t get a lot of sun in District 13 & they say the sun causes wrinkles 🤷‍♀️

[@qtgurly9539]

District 13 is underground, thus coin doesn't get much sunlight. Sun is like the main thing that causes aging and wrinkles which is why she might look a lot younger.

[@MissLauraAlicia]

This would make Lucy 81 ? And president snow 84 ?

[@waveeyes]

If Lucy wasn't "broken" by the games and all the horrors that happened during them I don't believe that Snow betraying her would break her either. Also, worth noting is that when Lucy (supposedly) attacked Snow with a snake it was not a venomous one, so even in the heat of the moment when she'd be feeling he anger and hurt at his betrayal the strongest she didn't try to kill him. So personally I don't believe she and Coin are the same person. However, it is possible that Lucy Gray could be Coin's mother.

[@doldfamily9983]

I agree

[@jadacampbell9331]

Exactly 💯

[@hbluemole6941]

Maybe a venomous snake wasn't there waiting for her to take her?

[@ameliasych9849]

Personally, one of the best & most believable theories I've heard is that Katniss's father was actually a son of one of the covey-members (Perhaps Lucy Grey if she lived, but not necessarily). The 74th reaping was rigged by Snow to get revenge on the late Lucy Grey & her family by ensuring the youngest & sweetest member of their family line (aka Prim) would be killed in the arena despite the odds a 12 year-old wouldn't be reaped. It explains why Katniss & Prim's dad knows the "Hanging Tree" song, why music was passed down in the family, etc. It also explains Snow's absolute disdain for and fear of Katniss before she even became a real threat. He knew fate was coming back to bite him at the end of his life.

[@laurenbrinsfield2614]

Love this theory! I also would love to see one about if Katniss in a descendant of the Covey. After all, how else would she have known the Hanging tree song? Everyone who heard it was either too drunk to remember it or forbidden to sing it again. Unless it was passed down within the Covey to Katniss's father, who we know to be of similar social status to the Covey and is the one who taught it to his daughters. He is often described for his love of music, and the mockingjays stop to listen to him sing, just as they do for Lucy Grey. How fitting would it be for Katniss to share blood with the family that Snow almost found himself a part of during his time in 12?

[@I_am_OK]

I thought that Lucy’s cousin, Maude Ivory might be Katniss’s grandmother (on her fathers side)

[@laurenbrinsfield2614]

​@@I_am_OKexactly. I feel like the language used to describe the Covey is too similar to that used to describe Katniss's dad to be a coincidence

[@michaelodonnell824]

Whatever about the Gray Baird / Coin connection (not on board with that, I could go along with Katniss's father being a descendant of the Covey's, except that Katniss describes both herself and Gale as "Typical" of District 12 natives - Olive skin, dark eyes and hair - the Coveys would not be "Typical 12". And some people just have great singing voices irrespective of background...

[@chelseafedy9046]

I would love to see this!

[@laurenbrinsfield2614]

@@michaelodonnell824 Katniss would be at least 2 generations removed from the Covey so those genetics could be covered up. Also she describes her looks as "distinctly Seam" not district 12 in general (if I remember that right)

[@SongBirdie92]

The hardest part of this possible theory, while it's well thought out, is that Coin suggests a hunger games with the capital's children. Lucy being a good person who admitted that she still has one foot in the games, it just doesn't seem likely to me that she would then suggest another version of the games since she knows first-hand the horrifying long-term affects.

[@davidalexander3320]

Giving off a real "Ron is Dumbledore" energy

[@corey6158]

LOLLL

[@messibessi11]

Is that a theory?

[@Artlove8900]

​@@messibessi11 Really?

[@messibessi11]

@@Artlove8900 what?

[@sarcasticsid5589]

😂😂😂

[@Jakeqqs]

I always thought Snow should just have said something about "oh I feel so responsible why couldn't I have prevented Sejanus' death?" when Lucy Gray asks who the third victim is. It wouldn't be far fetched to have some survivor's guilt in that situation

[@adrianaavila8853]

I feel like Snow did show a bit of remorse though, he cried in the bunkbeds scene where he goes through Sejanus’ trunk and sees their buddy photo together.

[@centurion8446]

Yeah I was thinking that, he could have just said he feels guilty because Sejanus followed him to 12 and got caught up with what got him killed. Similar to Billy Taupe getting ultimately killed because of what he got caught up in as a consequence of Lucy Gray sending him to give Mayor daughter piano lessons

[@ΑφροδίτηΡουτση-β4δ]

Honestly I never understood why he didn't just said that he did what he did to save her. He had already kill two people ,it's not like he was innocent in her eyes.

[@jodimasciave772]

Only problem with the age theory is Katniss has seen at least one 80 year old...Snow. she doesn't describe him as looking 50. And with the Capitol's fondness for physical enhancements, it would seem if anyone was going to look younger than what he is, it would be him. I agree with other commenters on Coin being Gray's daughter. Although that would seem like something she'd like to throw in his face after the Capitol fell.

[@madethistocomment727]

She may have if this was the case. The books are from Katniss' perspective, so she wouldn't know what Coin told Snow. She also likely wouldn't want the relation to be public because of how hated Snow was in the districts.

[@niallwood]

Same with Mags, won the year after Lucy Gray and was described as being elderly by Katniss in CF.

[@yvonnemiller4406]

2 if you count snow. Well he’s in his 80’s

[@ΑφροδίτηΡουτση-β4δ]

If Gray had kids ,she would definitely raised them better. Being related with Katniss seems more reasonable.

[@victoryangel29]

I don't know about her being coin, it is possible that an aspect of herself died after Snows betrayal. One of the stratagies of Lucy Gray during that Hunger Games is that she lays in wait for the right moment, much like a snake preparing to strike. So like what was suggested in the previous theory is that Coin orchestrated everything because she saw Katniss as her moment to strike. The thing with Lucy is her fate was meant to be left ambigious, much like the poem she took her name from. The girl who disappears and is never seen again and the question left for people to speculate is what actually happened to her. Since the Covey are outsiders and no one really pays them any sort of attention it is just as plausable that she was able to return to district 12 and changed her name to Everdeen. Since that sir name would be a play off the word "Evergreen" the discriptive term for a forms of plants that are able to maintain their verdent green color even under the white of snow.

[@d.a.studiosgaming7783]

Another possibility that would explain the age issue and the knowledge of Snow and Lucy's relationship is that, Coin is Lucy's daughter. Lucy could have told Coin about her relationship with Snow and they could have been planning for decades, how to take him down.

[@Penelope9441]

It would make more sense that Lucy is Katniss' grandmother. During Ballard we get to see (read) the dramatic execution that inspired the song "Hanging Tree", likey written by the 12 outsiders described as musical hippies. It is likely Lucy wrote "Hanging Tree" and passed the song down her own line as a lullaby. It how Katniss knows the song and no one else does. Its also why Snow internally freaks out because he was there at the execution and so was she. So was Lucy.

[@marionbaggins]

Coin would recognize the songs if she was Lucy Gray. But, no she is related to Katniss.

[@LoneWolfLuna28]

I think that it's Maude Ivory who's Katniss' grandmother.

[@abigailkondoudis5772]

I personally like the idea of Coin being Lucy and Snow’s secret child a lot more, but this theory has a surprising amount of evidence too. Although the margin of error for “50 or so” would make much more sense for a 64-year-old (daughter of 16-year-old Lucy Grey) than just and 80-year-old with really good skin, but still, this theory has a shocking amount of evidence and symbolism attached.

[@Lo0serx3]

when would it have happened tho? we saw every time Lucy and Snow spent time together and they never did it alone. I think Coin is her daughter, but I don't think Snow is the father.

[@DP-hy4vh]

Coin is at least 18 years younger than Snow in the Mockingjay films. Coin being Lucy's daughter makes more sense, especially the way Snow and Coin reacted to each other during the TV signal hack scenes. It's like they knew each other.

[@dewandrop4064]

Rather than her daughter, maybe Lucy made it to District 13 and befriended one of Coin's ancestors, being prominent in Alma's childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. If eventually Lucy and Alma conversed on a deeper level about Lucy's past, that could explain why Coin has such extensive knowledge concerning Snow.

[@Moosey6055]

The age issue doesn't bother me quite as much as the fact that Coin proposes the idea of having a Hunger Games with capitol children. It's kind of hard to believe that a former tribute would have that idea at all and especially Lucy Grey who has less violent animosity toward capitol children like Snow and Sejanus and convinces her fellow tributes not to hurt him at one point. You could argue that she regrets doing that after the end of the book but the idea Coin proposes is so polarizing among the other tributes it is hard for me to believe that a former tribute would think that is a good idea.

[@drewa7557]

The Hanging Tree theory (last thing that Lucy says) could also be foreshadowing how they both literally die, essentially "hung" together - Katniss shooting Coin, the people of Panem killing Snow.

[@GeroldGarthcia]

I think Coin is Snow and Grey's daughter, Grey was already pregnant when she went to 13. It answers the age and eye color questions. She could have learned Snow's secrets from her mother and it would be crazy ironic. You said yourself ahe eyes like grey snow. Grey+Snow=Coin

[@ks3nii185]

read the book, then you will know that the theory is not possible🙏🏼

[@theatomicmom]

I liked the theory that Lucy was the great-aunt of Katniss, and that Lucy's sister is Katniss' grandmother, thus teaching her the Hanging Tree Song, which Snow figures out.

[@Lisa-el4jo]

My theory of who Lucy Gray became was that she was really Greasy Sae staying under the radar supporting her like minded people. One of her sisters were Katniss’s ancestor on the father side & her mom was related to the previous generation governing District 12. That sister who could hold any tune until the birds stopped singing was the one. I have no idea what the actual author’s answer is to be, but I’m looking forward to seeing what it is.

[@carolinaida128]

7:18 then she should also believe that Snow looks "50 or so"

[@MrDanAng1]

It would be just a much easier theory to think Coin is Lucy Grays daughter. Alma Coin could have learned everything about Snow from her mother, having intimate knowledge of his personality and weaknesses while being in her 50's or possibly even early 60's when Katniss meet her. She might then even be Snow's daughter, making his manouvers to make Katniss kill Alma both more tragic and more self destructive.

[@littlealien5721]

I completely agree but I dont think snow is the father from coin. In the book there is almost no time where the 2 are together and "ballad of songbirds and snakes" is not a book with Lots of or huge time gaps. I find it hardly imaginable that they somehow found time for intimacy. So I do think coin is the daughter of Lucy grey and a random someone she may have met when she arrived at district 13 Sorry for my probably bad or weird English, English is my second language

[@svenjanurrutia8480]

I was reading comments that said Coin could be Lucy's daughter. And Snow, but I find it almost impossible because in the book they give no indication that they have had intimacy, so I don't believe it, but it could be Lucy's daughter, with a man from 13.

[@riahernandez9875]

Lucy Gray is Katniss Granny. Lucy sang the song to his Dad when he is still a boy. That is why her Dad is familiar with the lake where he taught young Katniss to swim.

[@JumpinJaxs470748]

I think there’s something in the theory that Lucy is some kind of relation to Katniss. There’s so much shared imagery around how birds stop to listen when they sing, which is definitely not a coincidence.

[@Joshua-ce6vy]

President Coin looks about 50 years old. If Lucy Gray is still alive during the second rebellion, she would be about 80 years old (2 years younger than Snow)

[@TheSolarium18]

Lucy Gray was killed by snow in the forest in the movie obviously. She was laying dead directly before him he just couldn’t accept reality

[@erikholladay7786]

Suzanne Collins confimed in an interview that Lucy Grey is Mr Everdeen's mother (Katniss'grandmother). It is much more fitting that President Coin is Snow's daughter from one of his first marriages. Fitting to your greyness and dirty snow references at the end of the video.

[@JJOOOOSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH]

I just figured Coin was the daughter of Grey, and possibly of Snow as well. The mother could have passed on the information necessary to take him down as part of her vendetta.

[@aquilaaguirre5202]

My only hesitation with the theory that Coin is Lucy’s daughter is the fact that Coin expressed they should have had Peeta be the face of the rebellion instead of Katniss. Coin would have known Katniss was associated with the covey hearing her sing the covey songs both in the first hunger games to Rue and also the hanging tree. She is cunning and would have realized Katniss and Snow were connected in that way and that Katniss would be his downfall. She would have been very sure of all this if she knew the connection between Lucy Gray and Snow and would push for Katniss to be the face of the rebellion from the beginning. It’s Plutarch’s idea to have Katniss be the face of the rebellion. Snow makes the connection and you can see when you watch the hunger games back that he wants to destroy Katniss more than he wants to maintain his “order”. Because it reminds him of Lucy, the mockingjays, the covey. I do think Katniss is related to Maude Ivory. Coin I think is just a fed up district 13 citizen who’s district was buried by the war and she wants retribution for her people. She also never seemed as fixated on Snow as Katniss, she was looking at a bigger picture, a free Panem. Anyone in that circumstance would have enough anger to rebel against the Capitol. Also if she were Lucy Gray’s daughter I can’t imagine her motivation to hold another hunger games unless she had no knowledge that her mother was ever a tribute. That could be plausible given the footage being erased but then how would she know the connection between Lucy Gray and Snow. Anyone have any thoughts on this? I would be more interested in Plutarch’s connections to the rebellion. I think he is a heavensbee and his lineage would be Hilarious who would have known about the 10th hunger games. Maybe some of the secrets Finnick spoke about from the Capitol elite were from families who had been mentors in the 10th games. Edit: counter theory. When Plutarch was originally a Gamemaker, he was mentored by Dr. Gaul. Maybe she took a liking to him the way she did with Coriolanus and showed him her lost footage of the 10th Hunger games as a lesson for him. Once he knew the story he was mortified and retired as a gamemaker. When he saw Katniss sing to Rue he made the connection to the 10th Hunger Games, and knew she would be Snow’s weakness and it would be his opportunity to end the hunger games. He then sought out the existing rebels and victors who wanted to rebel and came back to be a game maker and start the revolution.

[@adrianaavila8853]

Plutarch is the same age as Snow? I don’t think so, I think he’s younger. Cause how could he have been mentored by Dr. Gaul ~ I’m assuming she dies by the time President Snow rules at the 74th & 75th hunger games.

[@aquilaaguirre5202]

@@adrianaavila8853 I’m saying when Plutarch was young like Snow’s age he may have been mentored by Dr. Gaul at the university. He could have become a gamemaker young and then after a few years under her wing she showed him the footage. He mentioned he had been a gamemaker before but I don’t think it ever mentioned how long ago. Dr. Gaul doesn’t really seem like the type to retire early or trust anyone else with her project. I imagine she was doing it well into her seventies. But hey it’s just a theory 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@moons-nim]

I think, Coin want Peeta because she has narcissist tendency. It is said that she choose Peeta because she saw Katniss as her potential enemy to win Panem's citizen heart. And I think Snow has this tendency too, after Snow family's become poor, he constantly think about his well being. And if Coin really is Lucy's daughter, I think it is interesting because, we never knew what happen on Lucy after she run away from Snow. Lucy may or may not become you know grow some kind of PTSD and corrupt her kind personality, and then turn to raise her daughter into a more possible big threat to Snow. And I think, Alma Coin lost both her parents is a big push for her to get a revenge. But idk man, these are all our theories nothing wrong until proven with the writer next book. I find it interesting how all of us have different perspectives.

[@diabolicallink]

I don’t think she was Coin, but I think she influenced Coin. Doesn’t seem like she’d be capable of the pure tyrannical ruthlessness of Coin. Sure she’d probably hate Snow, but I doubt she’d be ok with sacrificing whole districts just to take down Snow. On top of that, Coin just wanted power. Snow just happened to be the one in charge I think

[@katelynrose23]

well. lucy gray says that she wasn't a part of a district, she was a part of the covey. in tbosas she never did a sejanus and say she was so against the hunger games, she just said that she didnt want to die. when coin proposed the capitol hunger games, it still showed she was never against them. unlike katniss with the NUT in district two, the book doesnt show lucy gray showing extenisve care for other folks or districts.

[@mk-vg6vg]

@@katelynrose23bro whatttt there are numerous moments in the book when it is made clear that lucy absolutely jates the idea of the games

[@lukejones2928]

I like the fact that Lucy sings the song hanging tree which has says they killed a man that killed three others. Kinda like how Snow killed 3 people and then he “killed” his old self

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

I am hearing about Lucy’s significance to the history of the hunger games and how she parallels Katniss. I don’t believe Coin is actually Lucy. I am seeing a lot of Alma being Lucy’s daughter, but I am wondering if she became a Legend and many people use her story and song as inspiration to rebel. Because the story may have not passed on in some areas or just faded the more Snow devastated each district for decades, Katniss became the wakeup call.

[@carish1452]

Baird is not the only Covey surname in the book. Billy Taupe and Clerk Carmine are Clades, as Lucy Gray tells Coriolanus. All the other girls are cousins, Bairds, and Tam Amber was an abandoned baby.

[@Dayshine_WUCE]

I just finished reading them and I’m so so happy your guys are doing hunger games theories!!!! And I have a question could you do a theory on a what if for Star Wars? I’d loveeee to see that! Love you guys ❤

[@amnasalim7982]

Honestly, this is a great theory. They both lost their old selves and became the cold and cruel people. They lost their first names and lived their lives as their last names, Snow and Gray. However, there is one reason that made me reject this theory. Snow's cruelty، greed, and evil were foreshadowed in the story, but Lucy's wasn't. also, if Snow and Lucy became enemies after being lovers, it'd be more reasonable if they were the opposite of each other, not to have the same level of evil and cruelty. Lucy Gray is Presedent Snow's worst enimy becase she trigges his weaknesses while Presedent Coin triggers his anger and power. I really want to believe that Lucy Gray is Katniss’s grandma. it's much more satisfying this way. That Snow felt threatened because he saw Lucy Gray in Katniss which triggered his weakness and caused his end.

[@AkiliLiela]

I thought Lucy was Katniss grandmother. It was her dad's side of the family that taught Katniss songs and the love of music. Why her dad taught her hanging tree in the 1st place. It was her Lucy Grey is Katniss grandmother. She may have made it to 13 but no way, even with her heart broken would that turn her into a strict controlling leader. I could see Lucy being Coins mom, and her leaving her their because it would be a better life but her going back to 12 because of family.

[@mom2opnjp]

I thought she was her grandmother too. I think I read that Collins confirmed it as well. Going to have to look it up.

[@kyalking1313]

I think one of Lucy’s sisters or cousins is Katniss’s Grandmother

[@solsticebaby]

Nope. But you're on the right track. Maude Ivory.

[@juliet-dh9nt]

personally, i think that lucy gray is greasy sae. that’s why she gave the pin to katniss. she probably saw her somewhere in the woods hunting and knew that katniss was the right one to give the pin to?

[@mienfu9824]

Hunger Games WHAT IF idea: What If Gale was reaped instead of Peeta in the 74th Games?

[@bobatea3474]

I get the sneaking suspicion that we'll figure out the answer to this question when we get the Second Quarter Quell/50th Hunger Games book

[@jessicai9976]

The lines in the hanging tree are so perfectly fit for the story too. „Are you coming to the tree“ Snow later is killed in a mob by his citizens at coins assasination. „They strung up a man, … who murdered three“ I think that Snow killing three is very much a intentional number on those regards. I think them being together in this kind of death theme really ties this theory together. A ballad of songbirds and snakes feels like the beginning to their story, while the hanging tree song is the actual end of it. The theory makes total sense now that I think about it further

[@jessicai9976]

And the rest of the song very much puts it together too.

[@rebekahbear250]

Nah I think that Lucy Gray is related to Rue. Think about it -- 1. Rue and Lucy Gray both have similar descriptions in the books. Dark skin, dark curly hair, and brown eyes. So, Lucy Gray could certainly be a grandmother to Rue. 2. When Lucy Gray ran away from Snow in the forest, she likely ran in the opposite direction that they were going -- which was north. After all, Coriolanus Snow was going crazy, and she probably wanted to get as far away as possible in the least predictable way. Which, in this case, would have led her south to District 11. 3. Rue and Lucy Gray are both good at singing. Lucy's career was literally performance, and Rue had her four-note melody that she sang to the Mockingjays.

[@michelehood8837]

The name Alma translates to “Benevolent Mother” - which fits Coin’s view of herself as the leader, or “mother,” of District 13 (and leader of both the rebellion and self-proclaimed Interim president of Panem).

[@HHLucifer666]

In support of the detail of coin being lucy gray, im going to offer up a personal story I was at my grandmothers funeral and i met a woman. She appeared to me to be in her early 80's to late 70's and when i commented on this, it was revealed to me that she was OVER 100 YEARS OLD. The lomg and the short of it being, that good health is going to keep you appearing younger for longer. This particular womans secret was staying active in her vegetable garden but coins secret could be going out on a hike through the woods every day. Maybe a mile. Doesnt have to be much. Just enough to where she gets enough sun on her skin to stay healthy and maintains an active and healthy lifestyle. She could also have a private exercise room that she uses on her off time as president of district 13 when she isnt sleeping or doing her presidential duties. Its clear that coin is a thin and healthy woman and it wouldnt be a surprise to me if she was much older than she appeared to katniss

[@ericdculver]

Maybe this explains why Snow was laughing as he died. All the propaganda was focused on Katniss, it was just before his execution, hearing Coin's voice, that he realized who she was. And so he laughed to have finally figured out the puzzle of how Coin knew just how to play him.

[@noeliosis3775]

IDK, I think with how Lucy Gray we're calling swamp potatoes katniss, and how it had a great ring to the name... Knowing the hanging Tree Song from a young age... It could be that Katniss is Lucy Gray's Granddaughter.

[@laurareeves1757]

I just assumed that Coin was Lucy and Snow’s love child. Lucy would have explained all about Snow and it would definitely give Coin a special kind of hatred for her father.

[@charlottevaughn825]

To the point where katniss says Coin is 50 or so and should be 80, 3 words: "full body polish" all tributes have one. Even Cinna says that post games, tributes can be altered surgically to make them look better to the audience. As for appearance difference: katniss says in Mockingjay she follows line perfect line of coins hair and wonders if it's a wig

[@michaelodonnell824]

If there is ANY relationship between Alma Coin and Lucy Gray Baird, then it might be more likely Mother and Daughter...

[@centurion8446]

Katniss father seems to be Lucy Gray son, he obviously knows Tree song and quasi lives in the woods around Lake and seems to have learned how to hunt (and sing) proficiently. It's a shame they glossed over Katniss father

[@I_am_OK]

😭 I’m so happy! Please do more hunger game theories! Love your videos 🫶🏼!

[@MargotPipiya]

And I’m here to say thank you for the commercial part of the video. My friend who recently moved to the USA was looking for that kind of service. So thanks 😊

[@delaneyromaniello2926]

What if coin is grey’s daughter? Stories passed down would mean she knows everything about snow, and the math works out

[@dondayafternoon]

carlin brothers making an original theory that they didn’t find on an obscure reddit thread from years ago without citing it as an inspiration challenge: impossible

[@importschlager1986]

After watching the Movie, i think that one of the other students is Coin and i think is Clemensia Dovecote, because she has no qualms about doing anything to maintain her lie, especially to secure the top spot in the game. (include reaching into a tank with snakes or bombing and killing children.) Additionally, we are unaware of what happened to her after being bitten by the snake! also the clean look from her fix perfect Coin#s look

[@thecreativemillenial]

She completed her arc. She was all about freedom. She got her freedom. Thats enough for me

[@davidfitzpatrick6535]

UM Ben here's the problem with that. Isn't Mags from the black market said to be eighty years old? Also the Old lady from Catching fire is also said to be over 70 so Katniss DOES in fact know what old people look like.

[@Lauren_210]

I think you’re getting them mixed up. Greasy Sae is the old woman Katniss mentions who’s from District 12 who works at The Hob and Mags is the female tribute from District 4 who volunteers to takes Annie’s place in the Third Quarter Quell in Catching Fire (Mags is the one who Katniss says she’s 80).

[@davidfitzpatrick6535]

@@Lauren_210 Ok thx. so how would Coin be eighty? Katniss knows what an eighty year old looks like plus coin must be doing some sort of Captial level deaging process cause she aint eighty.

[@Lauren_210]

@@davidfitzpatrick6535 Yeah, that is the thing that does not make me buy into this specific theory at all (and even character wise, I can’t see how Lucy Gray would be Coin). I think people tend to try to stretch this idea is because Tigris is 21 in Ballad and in Mockingjay, she would be 86 years old and when we see her in Mockjngjay Part 2, she doesn’t look to be like an 86 year old (which some people tend to say and believe that some Capitol citizens can really work on themselves through some de-aging type of work). I don’t think Coin is doing anything like that and I can’t see why Lucy Gray would be someone like Coin’s personality. There is no way I would see Lucy Gray trying to advocate for a symbolic Hunger Games cause she’s experienced it herself, dealt with the trauma that came from experiencing something like that, cared for her close knit family she had in The Covey and took on a motherly type of role to Maude Ivory, was free-spirited, etc. Coin is a horrible person and I wouldn’t even want to think of the idea of Katniss killing Lucy Gray the whole time if that were to be the case. 😅

[@davidfitzpatrick6535]

@@Lauren_210 Yeah the one thing I disliked about Katniss was that she supported a hunger game despite the fact that she went THROUGH ONE AND A HALF OF THEM (Catching fire technically never ended after all) HAS PTSD FROM IT AND STILL SUPPORTS IT!

[@kerrypeterson554]

​@@davidfitzpatrick6535I'm assuming you're talking about the end of mockingjay where Katniss votes to support another hunger games. Katniss did not want another hunger games. She recognised in that moment that Coin was as bad as Snow but she knew she had to vote in favour of it to win Coin's trust, so Katniss could eventually have the opportunity to shoot her and end the games once and for all. Similarly, Haymitch voted "with the mockingjay" because he recognised that Katniss had a plan. So no, Katniss didn't actually want another hunger games.

[@TomyRaiders]

I find it a huge stretch to think anyone could misgauge 30 years. Maybe 10-15 years. But not 30. Coin is Lucy Gray is Coins mother

[@KnightofLillies]

I really like how you explain the age gap, it makes a lot of sense. Also what do you think about the idea that Lucy Gray’s sister Maude Ivory is Katniss’s grandmother? Since she had the ability to memorize any song even if she’s only heard it once. And then Karniss goes to learn the hanging tree song (one sung only once) by her father

[@venuswhitehurst8657]

what if coin was snow and lucys daughter? This is under the assumption they had done the deed. it could explain a little more about the age's the resemblances of coin and snow both physical and metal. Lucy may have been badly injured killing the song within her thus having coin grow up with a monther that could no longer sing and perfrom like she once could. Only knowing the loss and pain snow caused her mother also adds to a new possibility that snow knew 13 had Lucy and thats why he made the deal with them, to allow them to live?

[@erinjoyner3739]

Coin being Lucy's daughter makes more sense than Coin herself being Lucy. Lucy loved Snow. Whether or not that love was effected by his betrayal isn't really detailed, but she loved him enough that this would still color how she spoke about him, if at all, to others. In all likelihood, she was more brokenhearted than angry, and I could see this also effective how her offspring viewed Snow. In the case of Coin, she'd never be able to see her mother smile, or enjoy herself; never get to hear her sing... These things, along with Snow's increasingly delusional and sadistic behavior would make Coin bitter and vengeful for her mother's sake.

[@christianzamarripa5874]

I think a big event that also supports this theory is at the end of Mocking Jay. Snow and Coin both came to “die”, just like in the hanging tree song. While Snow was hung to die, Coin was lost in the “Snow” via power and corruption just like Snow. Causing them both to die.

[@EntxGLover]

I think it makes more sense for Lucy gray to be related to Katniss family. For i'm not quite sure if she was Katniss grandma there is a slight hint since Katniss Father was known to have a beautiful singing voice, that she could be related to him. For Lucy gray to be Coin i don't see any resemblance at all. I always thought of Lucy to be self reflective and too good natured to want revenge

[@treyforfinski3998]

Coin put herself in the vote for the capitol hungers game that only victors were in as well

[@AlexisHollowell-wj9db]

In an interview from Suzanne Collins she said that Lucy Gray was Katnass’s paternal grandmother. Im just saying if it was a real interview this just doesn’t work. I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS ❤❤❤❤

[@elisian6319]

I don’t think she would ever confirm or deny this because it is supposed to be a mystery if Lucy Gray lived or not. If you think she lived and eventually returned to District 12, yes, that’s likely. But if you think she died or lived in the wilderness (or even made it to District 13), then no. This is why it was smart to have her sing The Hanging Tree on her last performance with Maude Ivory present, because the song lives on through her and can be taught to Katniss 60 years later even without Lucy in the picture.

[@nessa6100]

So of course we know the song “Hanging Tree” is wrote by Lucy Gray. My theory is that she wrote it about her and Snow, because in the song it says a man is strung up for being accused of murdering three people. Which we know Snow did do, and the song says that the man wants his lover to flee, but in the end it states the man wanted his lover to die alongside him in the hanging tree!

[@christine2931]

Or Lucy made it to District 13 and found out she was pregnant. Then she told her daughter all about her father and their history. With this theory, Coin would be closer to 60 instead of 80 (and more able to be thought of as 50 something). It explains the difference in look and personality. (Also, Coin as always reminded me of Snow in a lot of ways she handles things and what she is willing to allow someone else to risk to get what she wants.)

[@braddavis4377]

Lucy is Coin: No Lucy is Coin's mother: Yes! Coin is the daughter of Snow AND Lucy: now that would be interesting, but I'd think no 😅 Ballard of Lucy Grey: half way accross a bridge and the footsteps vanish...she jumped 😅

[@nataliavesga9080]

love the new Hunger Games content, they are my favorite books and love watching theories and analisis of the books and the little details

[@albaniancowboy2767]

I met an old man who I thought was late 50s early 60s but he’s 83 dude looked young

[@danielsantiagourtado3430]

You guys always make my day! Your passion and dedication are so comforting!🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤❤

[@chappy9245]

What if Coin is Lucy's daughter, and that's how she knows all the intimate details of Snow.

[@dianamcmahon51510]

If anything, Katniss is a descendant of Lucy Gray Baird. It ties into the story much better...the songs they sing (Hanging Tree, The Meadow song); the lake they go to; both are female victors from 12; both adversaries of Snow.

[@BlackLabsLikeRuleDog]

wasnt the point of S&S supposed to give a story of an old companion Katniss reminded Snow of, to give some context?? i havent finished it yet but that was my impression

[@tinaallan3292]

Super random theory regarding the roughly 30yr age difference: what if Snow and Gray had a physical relationship prior to parting ways? Then Gray could have been pregnant as she made her way to District 13, and had a daughter who grew up to be Coin? Loads of animosity there against Snow... 😮

[@allyroche261]

I know this was a month ago but I just finished The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, and immediately knew I wanted to watch this video right when I was done. I came to the conclusion that, like the ballad, Lucy Gray was able to escape to 13. I believe that Lucy Gray would be pulled into the rebellion with a new understanding of seeing firsthand what the capital and Snow is capable of. I think that as Coin gets older, Lucy Gray confines in her with information about Snow that Coin manipulates. Just like Snow’s father did to Dean Highbottom. I don’t think that Lucy Gray is Coin because Lucy Gray would not want so many to be tortured and die, but Coin would and once Lucy Gray passed, Coin was able to act out her malicious intentions.

[@jaredbroz]

I have a couple of thoughts: 1. As mentioned in other comments, Coin is Lucy Grey’s daughter. 2. Since Lucy Grey only knows about 2 of Snow’s victims, she thinks that he let it slip that he intends on making her his third victim. It makes the way she acts towards him after the slip make sense.

[@MinistryOfMagic_DoM]

It makes far more sense for Coin to be Lucy's daughter. She could have told her all about Snow as she grew up in district 13.

[@MinistryOfMagic_DoM]

Dang seems like the entire comments section is some form of this

[@bestbest-ps7kn]

The question is that after finding the truth of Snow, why did she change so much into becoming Coin?

[@bestbest-ps7kn]

And why does she want to kill Snow so much?

[@teresadelavega91]

I never thought Lucy gray could be Coin, I was thinking more of her as the grandmother of Katniss and the one who passes the lyrics of the hanging tree to the family, and I made the connection bc Katniss’s dad was a great singer, but that can make sense too. What if coin is the Katniss’s grandma 😳

[@annabanana614]

Then she (coin) would’ve been sacrificing her own granddaughter (prim) to kill snow

[@kevind3974]

As someone whith a mom that’s almost in her 80s but looks like she’s in her 40s some people stay young. All my mom does is due her hair and she gains like 30 years. Then add in the fact her skin hasn’t worn yet and boom. She looks early 40s. She is 78.

[@monkeymajor128]

New Jay vs Ben format! Battle of the theories! Now we need Jay to make a video about how Ben is wrong and Coin is actually the child of Lucy Gray and Snow. Fixes the age problem a lot neater.

[@ericblasenstein5978]

That is a very interesting theory. It would make a lot of sense in how they both know each other and how they operate

[@nannynanny8578]

I just read the whole Ballad of songbirds and snakes just too be able to watch this video, time to enjoy!

[@allisonhoff5805]

Even if I'm not always swayed by their theories, I really love watching SCB! They are fun, happy, interesting and just a joy to follow down the rabbit hole. Although, it always kills me how they seem to be able to mispronounce something from every fandom! Like, I love you guys, but y'all need to find a pronunciation guide for Harry Potter, Disney and Hunger Games.

[@ericahamel4404]

like what ?

[@MistarZtv]

I'm actually more in the Coin being Lucy and potentially Snow's daughter camp, she seems to have both snake and manipulative traits of them, being able to get people to do things them while keeping their hands looking clean. but this was a fun theory too.

[@corey6158]

When Snow shot at Lucy Gray in the woods, he couldn't see her, but she let out a scream or yelp. This insinuates that Snow actually shot Lucy and she bled out or died directly from the gun shot wound. However, I do think Suzanne strategically wrote it in the book to make us guess if she actually died or if she's living in the shadows of District 12.

[@myriadhearts]

If Lucy Gray were President Coin, she wouldn't have insisted on continuing the Hunger Games after overthrowing Snow. No matter the heartbreak, and no matter the power, their personalities and beliefs are just completely different.

[@PercyJBabies]

Right she would never

[@joshuaballard6013]

This is also quite brilliant. The logic behind the perceived age gap works well. I do like the idea of them killing their old selves. Really works for the idea of Lucy becoming Alma. I do find it interesting as well that as well as the mockingjay, (at least in the film adaptations) 'The Hanging Tree' song is used as a rallying cry during the rebelion. With Katniss singing it.

[@pnwadventurer802]

Cave be. Lucy wasn't that much younger than Snow, yet in the series she quite a bit younger..... Lucy is a descendent of Katniss