President Sunday Thinks Slaves Wouldn't Have Wanted Freedom Without Colonial Religion

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#Politics #Debate #Twitch

[@DarkBangle]

As a highly pedantic autistic person that has issues having a conversation because I tend to hold forth rather than have a back and forth - this man is far far worse than me in both those conversational issues. Like holy shit. At least I'm aware of my communication issues and trying to do better rather than somehow glorifying it like this dude.

[@lonelyone69]

PS is just straight up trying to Gish gallop I can't see any other reason for trying to pull the conversation to one side like bringing up nat turner or even Jake's viewership like wtf...

[@Fresh_yams]

Your ability to just step back and be self-aware automatically makes you 100 times better tbh. idek if you *are* pedantic but the fact that you think to think about it is virtuous at worst

[@DarkBangle]

@@Fresh_yams Thank you. I definitely am pedantic though. Lol. I am where jokes go to die and I quibble over word usage when I should focus more on what the intended message is. These days, I am trying to use my pedantry strategically for good rather than annoying my friends and family for what that's worth. 😂

[@OpticonVeritas]

@@DarkBangle Harness that power and direct the beam at the forces of evil 😆

[@DarkBangle]

@@OpticonVeritas lol. I do my best to. Back in my undergrad days I maaaaay have been the bane of the street preachers that would set up in the free speech area. 😂 Though I'm happy to say I was far from the only one challenging their views.

[@williamwest3594]

I'm listening to Demon Mama's review of this debate and ran across this: "Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? . . . . Morons." (A paraphrase of Jake by way of Vizzini.) I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I heard that.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

I cannot figure out what this argument is about. Is it really that PS takes issue with jake not clarifying that he didnt mean all black christians? If youre not being extremely pedantic, i dont see what the issue with saying colonization spread Christianity around the world. Thats a pretty uncontroversial statement. He is correct that jake is using the word irrational somewhat incorrectly, but the normal thing to do is to use context clues and social awareness to understand what jake is saying, make a brief argument about the accurate usage, and move on in good faith.

[@JoshuaWillis89]

“If you don’t let me babble on and on uninterrupted I can’t sound smarter than I actually am! 😭”

[@xiao668]

Immediately the guy is so weird. "I lied. Wasn't that funny? It was so funny."

[@raulatreides]

He is not the judge of what's funny. Pretend to be muslim is not funny. Begin interaction with some stranger betraying his confidence is not funny.

[@billieeisenhower406]

​@@raulatreides Lmao

[@bitzangubbinzondaleft]

Just the fact that Sunday talked about your vieuws dropping off just shows how bad faith it was going to get. As if vieuws has ANYTHING todo about being right or being entertaining... If anyone wants to talk about numbers vs entertainment; remember the insane amount of vieuws of Prager U gets.

[@RawketSushi]

I absolutely hate when like people try to go on whole monologues, but then say "are you gonna let me finish my point?" If you're gonna make several points and pretend it's actually just one point, then no, you don't get to finish uninterrupted. That's just a gish-gallop speedrun. You just wanna build up a mountain of points that your opponent then has to keep track of and unpack which is gonna be a lot harder then cutting it off at the start to address any foundational disagreements. And then when they say "hold on let's talk about that one point there" you go "are you gonna let me finish?" and play the victim and act like them just trying to keep the discussion manageable is somehow being unreasonable.

[@fatshibaballs]

sorry, couldn’t finish what you wrote since you didn’t get to the point

[@fatshibaballs]

Sunday didn’t gish gallop once in this conversation. LOL

[@RawketSushi]

@@fatshibaballs Ok so you did get to my point then, you responded to it, you just seem to have not understood it exactly. I said it was a "gish-gallop speedrun" not a literal gish-gallop. I explained what that meant in the comment but I just tried to keep it brief. I called it a "gish-gallop speedrun" because, instead of asking questions to establish foundational points, those points are just stated and assumed to be agreed upon. It's normal to use foundational points in making a larger point, the problem is when the other person makes it clear that there is a disagreement on those foundational points and the person speaking refuses to stop and try to address the disagreement. It is an attempt to force the opponent into a position where they have much more to unpack than if they just stopped to address the foundational disagreement from the start. This is why I called it a gish-gallop speedrun. It isn't literally a gish-gallop, but it serves the same purpose.

[@lonelyone69]

President Sunday literally came with a Gish gallop box and inside it's just the various fallacy equivocations and exception fallacies he can pick up.

[@Fresh_yams]

gotta love how the most fitting insult to hyper-pedantic, under-the-bridge-dwelling, troglodyte, reddit-mod-lookin-ass dipshits like this is to tell them to go back to highschool and get that english credit

[@emiliestinson3086]

Hey, Jake, maybe next time, can we lay off the fuckin' ableism?

[@cardshark38]

You say that like he was being ableist throughout the entire stream or something. I think he referred to this guys semantic pedantry as “autistic” a grad total of 1 time, and as an autistic person myself this seemed to be a very accurate judgement. Was it shitty in the moment? Sure, but no one is perfect, and this guy was anything if not abrasive and difficult on purpose. I’m a stickler for phrasing and semantics too, but nowhere near this level. It’s to the level that he seems to believe he can’t be wrong about anything in a general sense, and will split hairs about meaningless small minutia and use every dodgy tactic he can think of to make his interlocutor seem wrong when they aren’t, and to just answer the question he wanted to answer instead of the one that was asked.

[@mostfactualartificial8228]

@@cardshark38you’re autistic, and you’re cool with him casually using “autistic” to refer to someone being difficult and pedantic?

[@StaticCling99]

Yeahhh, not ideal. Nice to know he thinks we autistic folk are jokes

[@caseymckenna7111]

@@cardshark38I agree, but then why bring autism into it at all? I’m in the exact same boat but just because I’m autistic doesn’t mean I’m a smug prick.

[@cardshark38]

@@StaticCling99 that’s not what he said and you know it. You’re being ridiculous.

[@merbst]

In my opinion, Christianity does not originate from Palestine, but from Greece, because Paul (the sole founder of Christianity) was educated in Greece, employed by Rome, and hired Greek Authors to write the Gospels for 4 different audiences.

[@smacksumbody]

Nailed it👏🏾

[@AP-pk6mk]

The namesake of the religion is Jesus Christ who was a Palestinian religious figure

[@merbst]

@@AP-pk6mk yes, but he was a character in a myth that was authored by Europeans to fulfill certain aims of the Roman empire.

[@mikehunt8170]

The personification of "Well actually,"

[@stormbornbjornsson6576]

“ Mmmm well actually, that depends on what your definition of the word ‘definition’ is “* squidward laugh* !

[@spacerewriter]

Sunday is really just someone you should block and move on.

[@StaticCling99]

Using autistic as an insult multiple times. Thanks, man. Glad to know what you think of us

[@Happyisboss]

I'm not sure if it's an insult of just an accurate description of his behavior. Like him using overly specific and complex language to communicate ideas (I am personally autistic and not ablist)

[@jjcandelabra6164]

Actually pathetic

[@Santiago_Dunbar]

​@Happyisboss the way he used it was absolutely an insult

[@Kropothead]

@@HappyisbossIt’s an insult when it’s immediately followed up by “brain dead.” Then it’s dehumanizing. I’m a fan of Jake, but he’s fucking up. Speaking over people constantly, throwing his little jabs every chance he gets, using autistic as an insult. Thought he was better than these tactics, but maybe I was giving him too much credit.

[@emiliestinson3086]

@@Kropothead He usually is, this is something he only started doing recently. And I've gotta say, really not a fan.

[@AntoneBastard]

You really come off as very defensive and dogmatic in this debate and ended up making harmful arguments that i don't think you intended to make. I think remaining calm and level-headed despite the opposition would've resulted in a better conversation

[@noritochip_97]

Ah yes, the tone policing, because if you get upset when someone's being annoying, you opinion is less valid /s

[@Monomiknose]

I'm sorry Jake, I like watching your vids but I'm not making it past 5 minutes on this one. Starting out by pretending he le epicly trolld you by calling himself Muslim and then following with his "well there are indigenous Christians because some indigenous people were Christians", he really spedrun destroying his own credibility as a human with baseline intelligence and I just cannot justify watching 56 minutes of this man.

[@LordPastaProductions]

I've been following both you and Sunday for ages. This was a dumpster fire. Yes, Sunday has a particular way of engaging with people which is very annoying, but he is making valid points here.

[@lukaszzylik4437]

I agree. Jake was being very arrogant and tried to use gotchas and Sunday was trying to have a real conversation.

[@emiliestinson3086]

@@lukaszzylik4437 This, like Sunday's part in this "debate," is hilarious levels of projection and fart sniffing.

[@lukaszzylik4437]

@emiliestinson3086 yeah. Jake came off so smug with his head up his ass. In the very beginning of the debate he's already huffing and puffing and laughing underneath his breath. Then he goes full debate bro when he gets flustered and just starts making "you are" statements. Jake is yelling this entire convo, lol. Debate for entertainment and not education is Jakes game here.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

No he isn't. He's willfully twisting a very basic leftist argument about Christianity and colonization into something it's not.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

​@@lukaszzylik4437PS came into this misrepresenting Jake's argument and never relented, I would have gotten frustrated too

[@comradequestion4206]

Not a good showing pal. I would absorb some of the criticism and move on better and smarter

[@Play3r21]

Jakes just an emotional baby with projection issues Sunday bodied him

[@gingermami9650]

Imagine looking 50 and acting 12

[@djalexander968]

20:43 Precision and accuracy are two ways that scientists think about error. Accuracy refers to how close a measurement is to the true or accepted value. Precision refers to how close measurements of the same item are to each other. Precision is independent of accuracy. if you miss the 'correct statement'... that would be the 'correct statement' measured against the 'evaluated statement', precision is referring to the specific statements in a group, or in a row, and setting their accuracy against each other, so president Sunday had something to nitpick there, but it wasn't what he said and he instead confused the most basic principle they teach in entry-level 7th grade science

[@BaronVonQuiply]

Similarly with machining and firearms. I could have an extremely precise rifle that always hits 3 feet to the left of wherever I aim. There's also a video of Jacob Collier singing a note a few cents off, and playing the note on the piano. His precision was amazing, you can hear the two notes beating whereas if I tried that you'd hear me instantly slide to match (as close as I could). Benjamin Burnley of Breaking Benjamin manages to get both to the point that when they recorded an acoustic album I had to compare vocal tracks to find clues to whether he re-recorded the vocals or not - live recordings of his singing sounds like the studio version in a way I've not heard with anyone else.

[@argonianbum]

Rewatching this is painful tbh, this should''ve never left Twitter. Missing context on both ends. This doesn't take into account that this was some 2 weeks prescheduled conversation where PS pointlessly told Jake he was Muslim because idk... Someone being Muslim is preposterous apparently? I don't think either side did their best. Jake was already irritated with PS from the jump and PS I think was doing the entire thing because of his divorced buddy. No real substance to the conversation. Bummed about the "autistic" / "spaz" comments. 🌽Peace and love🌽

[@noritochip_97]

I mean... as an autistic, PS is being very unnecessarily pedantic about this in a way autistic people can and do sometimes (myself included)...

[@williamwest3594]

What's the absolute f***'s up with Jake's video title, "President Sunday Thinks Slaves Wouldn't Have Wanted Freedom Without Colonial Religion"? Or did some editor put that in? I mean to say it's horse s**t. Pedant Sunday clearly said the opposite. Most of what Mister Monotone said was worth considering (even if he's f*****g annoying about it), and I wish you'd (Jake) would've listened. (E.g., It's real easy to come to horse***t beliefs through rational means.)

[@williamwest3594]

Dang it! I shoulda went with "President Pedant" instead of "Pedant Sunday." Lost opportunity.

[@Pensnmusic]

He said the opposite and spent the entire debate dishonestly manipulating the meaning of every word he could get his grubby hands on so that he could dishonestly try to appear correct at all times, even when he was contradicting himself, or using the wrong meaning of a word in a given context. Words have multiple meanings, willfully misrepresenting which definition is in play at all times, so you always have plausible deniability is a form of lying. Then you come along and say "but he said the opposite" well he also said the opposite of the opposite. It's all he did the whole time, play all sides of every possible interpretation whenever it was convenient for him. You're pointing out the way in which he was dishonest and saying "how dare you call him dishonest for being dishonest!"

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

He's mocking the way PS misrepresented *his* claims. The fact that so many of you are missing this is upsetting me.

[@williamwest3594]

​Citation needed,@@Pensnmusic. President Pedant said that he did not know how a resistance would work out without the influence of Christianity on the enslaved population one way or the other. (I will need to go back to that portion of the debate to get the exact wording.) The title is horses**t. Show me where he said "the opposite of the opposite" as you so eloquently put it. Sunday's a Pain In The Ass (TM), but that doesn't make him a liar. I'd like to see your evidence for his dishonesty. I'd like to see evidence of him contradicting himself (other than slips of the tongue).

[@williamwest3594]

@@Jeremy-hx7zj, look, I want to punch Sunday in the face as much as anyone. But I don't find this misrepresentation you're talking about. EDIT: Listening to this dumpster fire again leads me to want to punch Jake in the face-twice. The man's willfully ignorant and dogmatic to the point of (Is this a kind of irony?) irrationality.

[@thabookwyrm]

Sunday is an insufferable pedant, but I really do think half of this conversation could have been skipped if you just said "Oh yeah that wasn't what I meant to say, what I meant was _____"

[@dand1253]

Jake _did_ try to do that, and Sunday just bulldozed past it.

[@willowtree7326]

yeah. Trouble is even the thing thing that jake meant is not wholly correct and pres sunday explained why he disagrees but Jake and apparently his audience too just wouldn't listen.

[@LundunDansqua]

Dude is a true fart sniffer.

[@LundunDansqua]

@@willowtree7326because fart sniffing pedantic nonsense isn’t needed in a discussion where the material conditions from the topic are life and death for many people. Sunday would sit and try to argue that Rommel isn’t a nazi while his tank is rolling over his neighbors house.

[@willowtree7326]

@LundunDansqua I barely remember what this drama was about, but I know it ain't that serious

[@DukeRaoul55]

I've been a fan for a couple years....never heard you use a neurological disorder as a pejorative. You could have just conceded that the post was poorly worded from the start as well. Dude was plenty pretentious but he wasn't ableist like that. Fucked up and not something I expected from you specifically. It's disappointing.

[@outercat]

PS called Jake dim, which is also ableist.

[@ActualJake]

To clarify, we talked about this on stream later. I'm Jake's partner and I'm autistic. I use it to self describe a lot about autistic traits like hyperspecificity and shit. He agreed later that he doesn't have the right to use the word like that, and apologized. - Sarah

[@DukeRaoul55]

@@ActualJake I appreciate that.

[@noritochip_97]

@@somad6997 PS called Jake a spazz... so like if you wanna be mad about the ableism, be mad at both of them, not just Jake... come on.

[@damesbooknook9885]

It's pretty incredible to see commenters repeat over and over that Sunday misrepresented Jake's points while, in the debate itself, Jake doubles down on some of the most factually incorrect points in his original tweets. For example, he keeps saying that it's totally correct that Black people are only religious, not Christian, RELIGIOUS because of slavery. Which is just false. And when given the chance to back down and say Christian instead, he doesn't. Then he goes on to make even worse arguments like how religious people are irrational by default, that they can't come to supernatural claims through rational means, when that's just bullshit. Rationality's a mental process, not an intrinsic quality that must necessarily lead to good and true answers. To people who follow neither of these two, this debate just came across as two fedoras trying to one-up each other with Jake in particular coming across as r/atheism distilled to its worst qualities. Frankly, Jake's lucky he was making these points against President Sunday and NOT a Black Christian because then he'd probably kill his following.

[@williamwest3594]

I'm listening to Demon Mama's review of this. She's echoing your thoughts here, and I tend to agree. Listening to it, I'm cringing at Jake's refusal to entertain the possibility that a theist may have come to a believe through any sort of rationality. It feels like Jake's summoned the Spirit of Reddit Atheism to possess his body for the duration of the discussion.

[@ChannelSixONine]

Jake stop interrupting him and calling him autistic. This is not a good look for you.

[@ActualJake]

We talked about that on stream later and he apologized - Sarah

[@spookyelectric5000]

@@ActualJake when is he gonna stop posturing like a fat andrew tate?

[@DukeRaoul55]

​@@spookyelectric5000nice body shaming there....

[@thereccher8746]

That's funny, cause I always thought word policing made people look like adult children.

[@spookyelectric5000]

@@thereccher8746 retard moment

[@Exmadix]

Damn president sunday nailed it at 8:44. People are getting tired of Jake being so damn hostile, angry and overconfident when he has no right to be. Even watching this, president sunday came off as so level headed and chill throughout the entire debate. Not to mention the abhorrent ableism from Jake. Calling PS autistic was super messed up. We all know Jake called him autistic in a hurtful way. This is insane.

[@noritochip_97]

I'm sick of the Christian/agnostic schtick. Jake's correct. If you let him (Jake) dissect it, there's nothing of substance, there never is. And if you wanna be mad about the ableism, PS doesn the same thing in the same video you just watched... so like... come on.

[@Ragnaraq1]

God Sunday has always been annoying and I've never understood the appeal.

[@Mitchincredible]

Jake, as a long time 'fan' (I guess, I don't really consider myself a fan of anyone) I don't understand why you uploaded this. Sure, President Sunday is a Redditor debatelord and therefore looks obnoxious as hell - but he had a better argument than you. You just came off as irrationally obsessive over being antitheist than engaging with the contention.

[@toddpacker4683]

Bro you did not look good here. You did the thing where you won’t let the other person talk, and just saying “that’s semantic” and “you’re bad faith” over and over again isn’t an argument

[@Ragnaraq1]

Ah yes because president Sunday being willfully retarded the entire time looked much better

[@outercat]

but is this not just semantics the whole time? and PS taking the most uncharitable interpretation of a tweet he could just to argue? I'd call that bad faith. this whole debate was a waste of time.

[@sholem_bond]

My favorite was the "agnostics, man" dig, personally. /s

[@xiggles]

Since when did Jake think its okay to use Autistic as an insult like that? Very disappointing

[@emiliestinson3086]

Since a couple of months ago, from the looks of things.

[@ActualJake]

To clarify, we talked about this on stream later. I'm Jake's partner and I'm autistic. I use it to self describe a lot about autistic traits like hyperspecificity and shit. He agreed later that he doesn't have the right to use the word like that, and apologized. - Sarah

[@xiggles]

@@ActualJake That's fair, I'm glad we can agree that's not cool. I also use it for myself in a joking way, but in a conversation that's genuinely antagonistic, it just didn't sit right with me, but thank you for clarifying.

[@tubbsyclone]

Holy hell Jake, time to hang up the fedora my dude

[@christopherwilliams9418]

And do what, pick up a rosary? Lmfao

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

Yeah, how will Jake ever recover from PS's devastating arguments of, "well ackshually" and "so you're saying black people have less agency than white people" Utter sophistry

[@tubbsyclone]

@@christopherwilliams9418 Don't worry, I wasn't funny when I was 14 either

[@christopherwilliams9418]

@@tubbsyclone Implying you're funny now? Nah, go back to the tradcath table, you can't sit with us.

[@Kropothead]

@@bel-nf2jd Le epic bacon fedora Chungus.

[@Musicombo]

...I've really enjoyed your videos for quite a while, but I'm pretty disappointed with this, Jake. Uncomfortably tense, unintentionally dubious arguments, and ableist remarks?? Really??? "Autistically focused" followed by "braindead"? As an autistic fan of yours, that stings. :(

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

You can't possibly be someone who can actually enjoy Jake's content if "braindead" is over the line for you.

[@christopherwilliams9418]

@@Jeremy-hx7zj It's wild how hard some people try to completely de-fang anyone claiming to be even mildly left of center. I've seen people talk about how "stupid" is "ableist" and shouldn't be used before. We're asking people to be respectful with their disrespect which is an oxymoron.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

@@christopherwilliams9418 never forget thought slime actually apologizing for saying something was "nanners" and not apologizing for making up a story about another streamer having a sex cult.

[@christopherwilliams9418]

@@Jeremy-hx7zjGod I used to love their videos lmao but yeah I still remember when they apologized profusely for saying that "Eoin" was a silly sounding name

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

@@christopherwilliams9418 didn't know about that, that's fucking pathetic

[@Pensnmusic]

"Indigenous ways of knowing" Uhm, that sentence is gramatically incorrect, indigenous only means what I prefer it to mean. -Sunday during this dumpster fire

[@luftcorde]

So... yeah.... this was rough. But mostly, in my opinion, because President Sunday was intensely focused on semantic and other technicalities. And that was his entire argument. He completely missed what Jake was saying because he was focused on the super fine print. And then he sits there smugly thinking he's right because Jake gets annoyed that he's not understanding what he's saying. Believe me, I've been where President Sunday is too. You just have to realise this isn't how people talk to each other. Being focused on the mega fine print doesn't mean you're right. I think President Sunday would have mostly agreed with Jake. Except for his obsession with small details, that in the context of this particular conversation, weren't all that important. President Sunday really reminds me of an older version of myself where I didn't understand what people were trying to say to me because I was too focused on the fine strokes, not the broad strokes. The fine strokes are important sometimes, to be sure. But not all the time

[@fatshibaballs]

It’s because Jake is bloodthirsty for religious people. You can’t make a coherent point if you’re gonna rage angrily at every point.

[@AriesCorinthier]

Really hard not to rage when they refuse to engage with a single point you make and immediately start making non-sequitors@@fatshibaballs

[@SpaceWampa]

I'm glad I read this whole comment thank you I like Sunday but it really comes off like he's just deliberately missing the point

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

@@fatshibaballs when someone is being that pedantic it's enraging. If someone spoke like that to me IRL I would strike them with a closed fist

[@fatshibaballs]

@@Jeremy-hx7zj unhinged

[@raulatreides]

Sincerely I was annoyed by the pedantry and the unfairness of PS. He asks continuously to not being interrupted and interrupts inmediatly. He attacks Jake's channel for no reason, try to mock about his corn fetish and his gimmick. Making fun about his high pitched voice and so. Look man... You don't want to cross that line. Belive me. Jake is being Jake (maybe not the best choice for this format), you should know where you are getting into. For a guy like you, mocking other's people way of talking and behaving is not the best strategy. Also: Jake, you and me knows more about almost anything than Socrates or any dude 200+ years old. I fucking know how the universe evolved. They were clever, wise people, but we have 2000 years of knowledge more.

[@mostfactualartificial8228]

Jake got mad and acted corny in this debate

[@dand1253]

So I've never heard of President Sunday before this, but we're not even ten minutes in and I want to throttle him.

[@Corromon0]

Yeah idk how the likes are split on this, the idea that you can't argue with someone point by point in a conversation is nutty. Like when you talk to someone do you just like, each say everything you would've talked about first then let the other person do the same? Like I went to uni and in a literal lecture it was expected to be able to ask the guy giving a literal lecture to stop and address a point they made if you want clarification.

[@BaronVonQuiply]

It occurs to me that I can see a lecturer asking to hold questions, or someone giving a presentation, maybe even a high school teacher. But I can't even get my brain to imagine Richard Feynman telling someone to hold their question to the end of the talk. I can much more easily imagine him reanimating to track down someone who didn't get a proper answer.

[@Rodrik18]

Cant do it. Too pedantic. Zero respect for that guy.

[@lonelyone69]

PS quite literally engages in an exception fallacy less that 7 minutes in this is insufferable

[@PresidentSunday]

I'm actually arguing AGAINST an exception fallacy. These terms do mean things.

[@lonelyone69]

​​​​@@PresidentSundayYou literally pointed to individuals to try and prove the rule that is by definition an exception fallacy. We are talking about THE SYSTEMS OF COLONIALISM and you're out here talking about individuals like Nat Turner. Quite literally going "look at how all these black Christians hated slavery because John brown existed I guess" What an asinine and deluded way of seeing history. I guess abolitionism had nothing to do with any of the other much larger material factors at play during the era like: the French Revolution, the haitian revolution, north-south divisiveness, state divisions, the growing power of a federal government and supreme court, the new taxation of slaves and slave exports like cotton, the empiricism movement (which was secular and even anti-theistic), British-american tensions, trade ship protection losses, french-american tensions, recent wars making colonialist economics look very unfavorable like Crimea and Napoleonic, a growing cost of shipping or massively growing piracy and privateering. But no it was Christian individuals like Nat Turner that's the reason for abolition and therefore Christianity itself. Christianity is by definition a colonialist ideology it spread through Rome faster than the plague. Yet for some reason you agree and then try to post hoc an exception, nice false compromise fallacy there. But no we gotta talk about these ultra localised concepts while ambiguously gesturing at "it was actually more common than you think" yeh sure trust me bro... Fallacious little child.

[@NateBosch]

​@@PresidentSundayNice! I got to watch a whole video of you avoiding engagement with the discussion by refocusing on semantics, and then you provide even more in the comments. Thanks! This is great stuff.

[@Thalimon]

I think Sunday has some good political views, but, this was an exercise in bad faith. He got offended that Jake phrased things about minorities poorly then tried to run roughshod over Jake. While the ableist language from Jake is a bit much I don’t think he’s wrong in his feelings when he uses them. I think Sunday acted in bad faith here and instead of listening he was just being a wokescold here.

[@politiqueen420]

Sunday let him get away with saying autistic as a pejorative over and over again. There was no scolding. Jake dug his own grave. Cope.

[@SpaceWampa]

​@politiqueen420 I dunno Sunday said Jake was "Spazzing out" at one point imo it's on par if not worse than using autistic as a "pejorative"

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

@@politiqueen420 as a vaush fan I could not be less bothered by Jake calling dude autistic

[@Urvogel7]

This video was unpleasant to watch.

[@Popper_Drop]

I admit, the opener of "joking about being Muslim" put me off a bit but this was a huge flop for me. I usually like watching your debate videos but you got heated for no reason while Sunday was being completely calm the whole time and trying to articulate himself while constantly being talked over and interrupted. Also didn't appreciate the use of Autistic being used as an insult, super shitty. Also looked at the comments as well so- It really doesn't matter if it's "okay" to one person or he "didn't mean it that way" because it definitely came out that way and that's the kind of stuff that needs to stop. I don't believe in a god and I don't believe that a god exists but I'm also not going to claim that we have the evidence that one simply cannot exist. I respect the opinion of Sunday as he clarifies he's an "atheist agnostic" which is something you CAN be. Doesn't mean you believe in woo woo shit but just like science is always learning, so are we. How can we be so bold as to assume we know a god or gods don't exist either? Doesn't mean they have to be "good" by our standards for them to exist. The fact you got SO frustrated at him pointing out that you didn't clarify what religion you were referring to is actually kind of ridiculous when it's obvious he was bringing up the concept of them bein associated with other religions into the discussion in the first place. You saying that Sunday "isn't listening" to you and having to repeat yourself was painful, whenever he tries to explain himself you immediately scoff, look away, shake your head. You're not ready to have a conversation about this, you've already gotten into your head that he's an idiot for some reason even though he hasn't said anything inherently wrong and purely wants to clarify things in a conversation?? Man even the divorce thing- I agree with you both TECHNICALLY but you acting like Sunday was wrong for saying they're bad is just ignorant. People going through divorce is a traumatic time. It's opening up wounds that might have been ignored, an increasing amount of stress is put on literally everyone involved, it can be messy and awful. Ultimately, if two people aren't right for each other, it's a GOOD thing they separate, I agree. But saying it's a "happy" thing is ignorant. They can end, horribly. I was happy for my mother to finally leave my shitty dad and then he went and did something so horrible that it can almost never be a "happy" thing for her to have left him. Not that I would change that - but the point still stands. You're just being intentionally obtuse. Again, props to Sunday. Trying to have a rational conversation with someone who keeps steamrolling you is so physically exhausting

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

Yall dont see what jake is doing by misrepresenting PS's argument? Hes parodying the way PS misrepresented his arguments.

[@TrueGamer22887]

There is no WAY you’re pretending that’s what you meant by “indigenous Christian’s” LMAO

[@PresidentSunday]

You really wanna die on this hill, huh?

[@Bentothethird]

Are you telling him to die on a hill?

[@PresidentSunday]

​@@BentothethirdI'm not telling him not to.

[@ActualJake]

Sorry I thought the channel was dead, why are you here?

[@AriesCorinthier]

The hill of... uploading content?

[@joshuapayne3937]

This dude loves to interrupt Jake and then get super booty tickled if Jake so much as coughs while he's speaking.

[@NicaB412]

This dude has the cadence of a Space Ghost Coast to Coast interview guest, combined with the unearned confidence of Space Ghost.

[@L0wallyn]

I think President Sunday managed to just pull out Jake’s most frustrated side. Doesn’t mean I didn’t flinch at a couple comments, but as an acoustic myself, I fall on the side of feeling Jake was honing in on his disposition, which was honestly seemingly crafted specifically to get people to that point. The point of frustration overtaking better judgement. We’ve all been there.

[@SpaceWampa]

Sad to say this is the third time I watched this but the first time watching in on your channel Sorry Jake

[@outercat]

this was a poor performance from both of you. you both ultimately agreed on the larger points; PS focusing on the split hairs in verbiage was annoying and uncharitable and it made this whole debate pointless in the end. which is why it devolved into slinging insults pretty quickly.

[@Happyisboss]

Bro is just trying to advertise his dying youtube channel lmao

[@lostheart8092]

I spy with my little eye a butt buddy of the PS guy. 🫵🏼😂

[@Happyisboss]

@lostheart8092 I think Sundays channel is dieing and he's trying to advertise lmao shits pathetic

[@Spectra651]

This guy has the most instantly smug, irritating , I-know-everything voice I think I've ever heard in my life.

[@Cato76]

He has a deep nice kind gentle voice.

[@animatorstanley]

If he means native people from all-over the world "chose" to be christian to liberate themselves. Means that they submitted to chzristianity in order to NOT get murdered, than yes. If he means they chose it of their own free will, than no. Jake intellectually kicked this mans ass!

[@lukaszzylik4437]

Its wild how arrogant and bad faith Jake was being.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

In what way?

[@Ragnaraq1]

You misspelled president sunday

[@concernedcitizen6313]

This guy's a prick, but "There are no indigenous Christians in America" would never be interpreted as meaning "Christianity didn't develop organically along indigenous people" ("happening by indigenous means" is a nonsense phrase). That said, all culture is transmitted, and pinning down which aspects of culture started here or there is often difficult and sometimes impossible. Saying aboriginal Americans were forcibly converted and indoctrinated is a reasonable statement.

[@fatshibaballs]

Sunday rolled you also not cool to call him autistic and then pretend that his "body shaming" is pushing it. incredibly reddit atheist brained

[@themajesticspider-man6116]

He literally was body-shaming though. I like Sunday's videos and streams and all, but you're OD-ing on copium if you're acting like he wasn't doing that.

[@PresidentSunday]

Beard shaming, technically@@themajesticspider-man6116

[@fatshibaballs]

@@themajesticspider-man6116 calling him autustic is worse, and its saying a worse beard than someone, thats not fucking bodyt shaming.. hes just insecure as fuck. its genuinely not a well groomed beard.

[@axolili]

He's the one who started talking about looks. And by a guy who looks like that it was a dumb idea xD

[@christopherwilliams9418]

If by "rolled" you mean "attempted to cut a whole video essay and refused to let Jake get a word in edgewise because he never shut up" which is Ben Shapiro shit then sure

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

Why is anyone acting like PS rolled jake here

[@Ragnaraq1]

Ikr holy shit

[@CentralStateHyan]

Sunday did roll him. Jake came out of the gate argumentative and unwilling to concede that his statement was a little wrong, tripled down on using 'autistic' as a jab, and then when Sunday might've goofed a few times, Jake didn't even *notice*. But yeah, Sunday's the real bad faith guy here! Get real.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

@@CentralStateHyan if you take Jake's statement at absolute face value with no social awareness, it's a little bit wrong. If you just perceive language the way that nearly the entire English speaking world does, you automatically assume that no one is ever talking about "every single X person" and not using generalities to make a point that is way more important than Sunday's dumbass technicalities

[@CentralStateHyan]

But none of those are technicalities. Jake was just overbroad and factually wrong. Had Jake any emotional maturity and didn't come off wanting a fight he could've modified his message a bit on stream and taken a much smaller L than the optics shitshow he engaged in. Also it's pretty bad form to have your girlfriend do the damage control in the youtube comments.@@Jeremy-hx7zj

[@Ragnaraq1]

@@CentralStateHyan are you just going to pretend president Sunday wasn't embarrassingly inhuman and bad faith the whole time? Like how can you stand to listen to him be so dishonest and cringe and think he came out with a W lmao And to act like Sarah defending him in the comments is cringe when she's like literally half of the channel is stupid of you

[@dariusjonna]

He ran.

[@KokoroKaisen]

dude is filibustering the discussion

[@christopherwilliams9418]

Tried to cut a whole video essay lol

[@solarblitz4524]

How do you make President Sunday look good? 🤣🤣🤣

[@RandomAussieGuy87]

I thought it wasn't possible until now.

[@solarblitz4524]

@@RandomAussieGuy87 you and me both

[@noritochip_97]

He looked good in that? Had me fooled, he looked like a dumb ass that doesn't understand context...

[@jadistucker2073]

First thought, this guy looks like an evil John Finnemore...

[@lostheart8092]

No supernatural belief has ever had a rational justification. Period.

[@raulatreides]

​@@bel-nf2jdif they are rational, you would have convinced people by reasoning. And that's not how people gets into belief normamlly. That's the whole point. A rational reason to belive will convince rational people. Seems that's not happening. I've been debating believers for years and I'm waiting to hear a rational reason. A sufficient one, of course. The contingency i.e. may sound as a rational argument, but is insufficient to justify a rational belief.

[@seansteele6532]

Pedantry

[@BaronVonQuiply]

It took me 14 minutes to decide President Sunday is definitely a Reditt Moderator.

[@Eibarwoman]

Don't elect President Sunday for office.

[@heinz57channel39]

People like this guy? Or do they hate watch ?

[@christopherwilliams9418]

I wouldn't even elect President Sunday for janitor

[@Poisonfrogg]

I am amazed how Jake can say something so nonsensical and kind of stupid, and this other guy is so bad at conversation and arguing that Jake still sounds correct in comparison... What the hell is this?

[@Fresh_yams]

you say you like peanut butter yet i see you're eating bread with it, curious as to why you would lie about your affinity for bread. "yeah i like bread too" so you're incorrect there YET AGAIN as i see you have gone for the toaster, *categorically* making that in your hands toast. "can i eat?" you seem physically able but can you not interrupt me after my clause has concluded? this guys friends run on batteries stg

[@smacksumbody]

At 42:50 🔥🔥🔥

[@aerrae5608]

So annoying, your point is so simple, native Americans and minorities would NOT have been Christian without colonialism. Therefore there are no non-white Christians that came to Christianity without the influence of that white colonialism. Yet he argues like a Christian, he dodges your main point and argues about pointless shit that doesn't matter.

[@SoFarSoGoodSoWhat14]

Why are 95% of rightoid arguments just pedantry about wording

[@billieeisenhower406]

Sunday is left

[@brazoshopper5081]

dude's doing his best Jeff Goldblum impersonation

[@axolili]

So he just "isnt sure" if black people would want to be free without religion. What a weirdo xD

[@help4343]

That is not what he said at all. Not even close.

[@dvnmaycry]

​@@help4343it's actually directly what he said. What I want to know is what he actually means by that.

[@noritochip_97]

PS doesn't understand what Jake meant by indigenous, and is refusing to understand the premise... so like. I mean, PS thought is was quirky and funny to start the convo on a false premise, I'd be pretty peeved/fed up with the convo already too... Edit: See problem solved in the first 4 minutes. There was no debate, because PS was being pedantic. He could have taken his lumps and said "oh shit, I misunderstood" but decided to continue anyway.

[@noritochip_97]

Also it's not autism, it's epilepsy, I'm 90% sure of it. There are certain mannerisms that people who've had epilepsy during developmental stages have, and PS displays many of them. I've met many people like him, and they are very hard to talk with.

[@HumanIsError]

This dude reminds me of a cleaned up KingCobraJFS

[@HotDogTimeMachine385]

Wow, any time I think extreme christians have said it all they surprise me

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

What extreme Christian?

[@Loquification]

Christ. Im mostly ok with Pres. But every part of this I look at is pedantry and and being willfully wrong. Hes not usually this off. This turned from him having a bit of fun presumably out of weird mischeif energy (which I approve of) to being what I hope is willfully dense or just plain wrong.

[@vishg5148]

He's a literal lolcow and you're saying he's not usually this off? That's comedy

[@TrueGamer22887]

@@vishg5148Jake is as much if not more of a lolcow and came off like an insecure idiot in this convo lmao

[@jegorrizaev9494]

Holy shît 10 minutes in and that guy is giving me a headache. Acting really dense

[@dontuserachelslurs]

He is like an Andy Kaufman troll character

[@julsdemers4740]

mh yeah, the one insulting someone's beard is clearly the one winning here, that's obviously smarter than saying something is "intuitively true" /s

[@fatshibaballs]

that was after jake called him autistic first. he definitely lost. funny your ears ignore the same person you're claiming won the debate.

[@themajesticspider-man6116]

@@fatshibaballs They both threw useless personal insults and were both in the wrong there, sure, but thinking that having the ungodly ability to nitpick the smallest neutron of an argument for over an hour, which, ironically enough, is a genuine thing an autistic person may very well do, is not evidence of winning a debate. No need for the soyfacing, so curb your enthusiasm.

[@julsdemers4740]

@@fatshibaballs im not saying anyone won the debate, im saying that relying on petty insults is a complete loss and noone who does it should be taken seriously, its childish and proof of bad faith to ignore someone's argument by insulting them, along with being a fallacy. maybe use your brain before replying to someone, and analyse their words first. and as for the autistic comment, if you look through the comments, you'll see Sarah mention to someone that he in fact apologized for it. though either way that autism comment wasnt an insult aimed at this man, it was aimed at his behaviour, which while "autistic" wasnt a brilliant choice of word (forbid someone uses a wrong term in a heated moment) his behaviour was factually speaking, quite infuriating and in clear bad faith, if anything, i think Jake was surprisingly polite by even giving this person any chance of speaking and not cancelling the debate instantly.

[@julsdemers4740]

@@somad6997 does that make ME trash for using it when talking about my own behavior? (i am in fact an autistic person may i add), sometimes people use words without thinking about it, it doesnt make them a bad person, and having such a surface level understanding of good and bad is extremely shallow of you

[@julsdemers4740]

@@somad6997 recognizing actions i commit are traits of my autism is nothing like internalized mysoginy and racism- if i start doing something that comes from my autism im gonna be like "oh yeah, that's autistic behavior" that's not reprehensible behavior, that's recognition, which you'd understand if you had more than one braincell

[@TheRoboBro1513]

if "um actually" was a person

[@michaelmckeown5396]

Jake, there where slaves that wanted to remain slaves, do you know about the house slave, you know the slave that wanted to remain a slave because they had it better then the other slaves.

[@agoo7581]

I mean, I guess there were some slaves that just didn't know that life could be a lot better as they lived their whole only knowing what slavery is, but pointing out a few exceptions to the rule is pretty much a waste of time.

[@staticpoko]

​@@agoo7581Some could want to remain slaves not out of ignorance, but the knowledge that slavery can provide more security and stability than freedom. That's just one of the insidious ways slavery perpetuates itself, by being the path of least resistance.

[@michaelmckeown5396]

​@@agoo7581it's not, if we're talking about rational and irrational thinking then bringing up the few exceptions of rule are important and should be talked about, otherwise you're just being ignorant.

[@michaelmckeown5396]

​@@staticpokoexactly, humans will, for the most part, prioritise safety and security over most things, and that can lead to rationalising irrational ideas.

[@NoleenRankin]

Oh hey it's the channel awesome failson lmao

[@jordand5555]

Oh no jake stopped being a goodboy(tm)

[@happibuni123]

Dave is less gross than this guy😂

[@holstatt6896]

Man, and I thought his defending Vaush's use of Nazi talking points was unbecoming of him. This is... bad. Why do online spaces keep sorting monsters like this to the top?

[@vishg5148]

Name one talking point please, I’m super curious

[@HumanIsError]

You don't mean the Noncompete convo do you? Where vaush said that Jewish people had higher than average amount of people in banking in germany at the time. Because that was true. Vaush went over the stats; the point on that was it wasn't a justification for the holocaust even if it were true. But since NC was working from a standpoint where he refused to establish any ethical system or groundwork he was not able to understand that even if facts sound dicey it doesn't mean they justify genocidal ideology.

[@thatdarnskag5043]

​@@NickVondo-su5olJewish people as an economic asset? You gotta be more precise than that man, I don't think Vaush has ever said anything to this effect, or even anything anti-Semitic in general.

[@thatdarnskag5043]

@@NickVondo-su5ol Oh, my bad. KZbin mobile was doing that weird thing where it doesn't show me all the replies.

[@holstatt6896]

@@HumanIsError yes that one, and BadEmpanada has a great video on why EJ responded correctly to that nazi shit and how both Vaush and Sunday are saying that Jews had disproportionate control off of a 1% relative difference in ethnic population to representation in a job. Also known as statistical noise. Most of the so called online left are useful idiots or Nazis, dude.

[@rodneysmith873]

Man this guy was pulling out all the debate bro tactics and for what? to troll a piece of corn?

[@SoniaSephia]

As soon as the sky admitted he lied about being a Muslim and thought it was funny, Jake should have ended the call. If he's happy to lie about the original point of the conversation, but I'm pretty sure everything else was just trolling.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

It's a fucking joke, it's such gross cope to act like sardonic humor is lying when Jake and literally every leftist ever do the same thing

[@FreeEstrogen]

Your lying.