Big Doubling Mistake

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[@rickdeaguiar-musicreflecti7692]

What a cool song Joe. Great tutorial also ... you are very talented sir :)

[@HudzPro]

Studio one is just the best DAW of 2020 🔥 I learnt this mistake the hard way :(

[@HeadacheMachine]

RECORD the track twice, one for the left channel, one for the right channel. The slight differences in playing will take care of the stereo image. Done! Come on, don't be lazy people, Joe is right!

[@officialWWM]

Christophe L. Yeah, I just assumed everyone did that 🤷‍♂️Also, just changing the tone slightly will help as well :)

[@MisterTrayser]

It is a problem if you work not with professionals. It takes 100500 times to record just one good take. Another problem is when I use sample libraries, I can't just record something twice. So I'm still searching for a good way to make big stereo without 2 recordings

[@michaeltablet8577]

These videos are so helpful! Thanks again!

[@philfyphil]

I like your videos and tips Joe, you don’t jack around and get to the main topic quickly without labouring the point. Keep up the great work. I’m sure many do, but people need to appreciate how lucky they are having this level of free training to hand.

[@surenharichund8570]

Thank u Joe. Always giving us great tips

[@drapaul10]

Thanks much for this Joe

[@neilawicker]

Thanks Joe. Love your lessons.

[@kevinfoxorn]

Amazing track, man!! Sounds really clean!

[@ellensoomers9496]

Great tutorial thank you so much!!!!!

[@Halocene]

Great tips for beginners. Everyone looking to learn the basics and up their game... these are great tutorials. Thumbs up

[@amperafamily4085]

Beautiful song..

[@KevinQualls]

Thanks, Joe! You're the best, Brother!

[@KRTeutsch]

He wouldn’t be so breezy with his “play the same thing again” if he knew how long it takes me to play something right the first time.

[@Yu2beFool]

I could disagree on that, because before I start recording, I practice a lot until I'm satisfied with the technical quality and from then on it's just playing by instinct. This way I get to add my emotions in the play, which makes it so much better every time. In the end it's even rewarding to play it twice.

[@KRTeutsch]

@@Yu2beFool That was a whimsical, self-deprecating comment. A “joke,” if you will.

[@Yu2beFool]

@@KRTeutsch ;-)

[@officialWWM]

Ken Teutsch lol, some people are so serious 😂

[@Yu2beFool]

@@officialWWM Maybe the most common mistake is lack of perspective?

[@jimgraczyk1387]

Thanks Joe! we are listening!

[@czasdobry]

Thanks Joe!

[@bersi1149]

Nice song Joe! txs for your tipps 👍

[@vastmuzic2]

You are wonderful guy as always

[@rickymolina7390]

Great song, great reminder. As you mentioned in another video, this idea applies to vocals as well. Thanks.

[@jazzrengue]

Nice track!!

[@michaeldavid1198]

Jooooeeee! Great tip my dude. This opened my ears to the truth. Holla. Ive been doing this the wrong way. I never could understand what my track didn’t sound quite bangin.

[@audiosounddoctor5834]

Great tutorial

[@kiidz760]

I had to comment cause of that song it's so beautiful

[@bobsofficial4945]

Wow Joe, I have been making that doubling mistake for all my songs. Thanks for showing that- I always wondered why my songs tended to clip on the main output after I doubled the track.

[@windchimerainbow136]

I love that song. I bought it years ago, along with many others of yours. As for duplicating, the only time I do that in my DAW is when I have the instrument settings to exactly where I want them but can’t remember what I did. So I hit “duplicate track” and then remove everything but the settings before playing my midi keyboard to it. I also will tweak the settings a bit so it doesn’t sound precisely like the first one. There’s probably an easier way to do this, but I’m still very busy with other things in my life, hence make very tiny steps in software knowledge. Which no one would notice but me. And likely none at all if not for great teachers like you, Joe. Thank you!

[@ridgerunner4943]

Thanks Joe! I always wondered why duplicating the take and moving one a little, sounded "quacky".

[@akosiniroh]

hey joe! great track!

[@AndreasR86]

If you're lazy or are given a recording with only one guitar (or whatever track) you want to double, one thing you can do is to duplicate a track, but then cut it up and use a later or earlier part that plays the same thing. Of course, that only works if it's not just a recording that already duplicated a part for every segment of the song.

[@presonus]

YES. Brilliant. - Joe Gilder

[@hwarang76]

nice song!!

[@caderik1386]

ohhh what a great song - please could you do a whole mixing walkthrough??? love the way the guitars blend with the vocals - that is a really tight mix

[@HugoDaSilva7]

Thanks, great vídeo 👌

[@vickyuttreja-vu9382]

Thank u so much sir..🙏

[@cheribarkman1784]

Joe!! What up? Great Tutorial as always.

[@groovetank3698]

Bravo JOE, I can always count on you to take me back to when I was a rookie and remind me of all the stupid shit I used to do my mixes. Here is a related thought..... for doubling VOCALS its the same thing but when you are singing the double I zoom in on the waveform of the first track so I voice my syllables and get my starts and stops, inflections and breaths as close as humanly possible....KNOWING there will always be that HUMAN variation to give it the character and separation i'm seeking....... sometimes the double may be a harmony or an octave....... but the act of singing while watching the cursor travel across the first waveform keeps me very aware of my timing, breathing, pitch and pronounciations and it justr creates big backgrounds or a very upfront lead vocal that sits on top of the mix...... I also use MELODYNE to tighten the tracks in post and that is the cu-de-ta for making a vocal shine and correcting any pitchj issues i might not have been able to hear while tracking........ JUST wanted to add my two cents (S1-5 pro, FADERPORT 8)

[@jasonstallworth]

You’re right and just doubling essentially only increases the volume. But when you actually record that 2nd track, you get those organic nuances that make it organic and lively. I’ve used this method for my rhythm guitars in every album to date.

[@BlueTransAm83]

Hugh, newbie but done it before to lol. Only cause I did so much variations improvising I forgot a lot I did. But it creates a pipe like odd effect on norm speakers.

[@Just-Tony]

Great explanation Joe... I've been using that "recording a second track" technique for years... I saw lots of people in the comments saying about just copying, not recording, a second track and I couldn't quite explain to them why it doesn't work like that... so, I'm glad you straightened it out... great advice as always.... BTW "Don't make it muddy, make it money"... there's a catch-phrase in there somewhere... LOL

[@presonus]

Haha. You're totally right. 😂 - Joe Gilder

[@AliEsfahaniMusic]

so cool...

[@eduguantanamo27]

Muy bueno Joe,Saludos desde España

[@BladesMusic]

Hey Joe! Feeling like I might have been some of the inspiration for this one :) I totally get this. My comment on your other video was about the "Cheat" of doing this which at least gave some amount of stereo spread vs. the "just duplicated" version and I wasn't really thinking about summing to MONO (like that clock radio next to my head in the morning). Since I only ever record my own stuff and not others in my space, I have the luxury of re-recording every time anyway. Thanks for the follow-up video on this. I'm sure it will be helpful for many.

[@presonus]

Right but the idea is if the mix doesn't sound good in mono, it won't sound good in a lot of different places. That's the idea. - Joe Gilder

[@Davidmichaelfrank]

Stoked that Presonus is getting into content creation! Great job Joe!

[@officialWWM]

Future Sunsets Official they have been doing it for years :/

[@Davidmichaelfrank]

@@officialWWM just seeing it now! Big fans

[@officialWWM]

Future Sunsets Official there's a lot of great stuff out there. Whenever I get stuck with something, I do a quick KZbin search and I can usually find the answer. Joe here has lots of great stuff.

[@kaleidoscopeoflife2554]

Grande Joe!

[@thepeladeauprojectband8943]

I agree 100%. On my last song I used a Tascam portable recorder (stereo) on an acoustic track direct out and into my tracking recorder (just leave in record standby mode). I also used an AKG C1000 for a mono track. An interesting and successful outcome. I sent the stems out to be mixed by a friend on that song but I have an ultra cool mix studio now with Studio One being the centerpiece DAW.

[@kenl4282]

Nice tip. Doing it the right way, did you still nudge one of the tracks in time or leave them as recorded related to time?

[@Kineticartist]

nice one

[@locutusmdv]

One duplication I find useful for acoustic guitars is keeping them synced, but using different effects on each channel, such as chorus on one and clean on the other. But I also have tried the out of sync duplication in the past and it didn't sound good at all. Thanks for the video.

[@ogurstudios123]

Thanks for great tutorial. If i have one mono track recorded and i can't record it second time, can i use the channel splitter and on the left channel put dry signal while on the right channel i put a delay and for example ampire or other effect? It should change the soundwave a little bit. I didn't have an phase issue in mono when i was doing this so far.

[@presonus]

As long as there aren't phase issues, sure. But the answer might be just leave it as a mono track. - Joe Gilder

[@airt100]

great video! would love some more basic error videos to sure things up

[@airt100]

especially on mastering and mixing

[@ziwrenanldino6896]

Nice it sound like Crosby still Nash ..love your Chanel

[@nicholaskillmeier4895]

Hey Joe, can you do a WDM tutorial for the Series 3? I've followed the steps in the manual and it just does not work. I'm trying to use my 32SX in Discord or Zoom for online guitar lessons.

[@composersgarage]

hey do you guys know when S1 will be compatible with Big Sur yet? THANKS!

[@presonus]

We are already compatible - But most of your third party plugins likely won't be yet. -GBY

[@joshuaday914]

Great tutorial Joe! But what if your guitarist sent you a mono track and you for whatever reason can’t ask him to record it again exactly the same way? I watched another video where the advice was to duplicate the track, pan one left and one right, then EQ the highs out of the left channel and the lows out of the right channel to achieve a stereo guitar. Would this work?

[@caderik1386]

First thing - that is some good tight playing and a perfect double. Would love to see how you could use this technique with Synths. I know that nothing beats the double recording but otherwise Soundtoys Microshift or Softube fix doubler apply some subtle variations to the double to prevent the phasing artifacts. I always use one of them on vocals

[@djorig]

The plugin called Wider is great for that HAAS effect

[@shaynsnyolo]

The best daw there is 😍 Just need a few bugfixes here and there :p

[@keyboardmatrix4328]

I will say it again and again -Presonus, Add Automation and Gain envelope to the mastering page and this daw will be at the topmost

[@hwarang76]

@@keyboardmatrix4328 and now in ver5 they have it!!!

[@thepeladeauprojectband8943]

@@hwarang76 nice. I have not used the mastering area yet.

[@keyboardmatrix4328]

@@hwarang76 Can you please tell me how to activate it in the project page?

[@hwarang76]

@@keyboardmatrix4328 sorry I’m not sure. I’ve never used the mastering page myself. I just use SO for recording and basic mixing. I just remember someone talking about those features in a video when ver5 came out. I think it was the guy who does the Home Recording Made Easy videos. You could try searching the knowledge base or submitting a ticket with Presonus. Sorry I can’t be of more help.

[@jrclarkbass]

I wonder if that's why Jemma Dog tilts her head when I talk to her? A lot of dogs do that and their hearing ability is amazing. Maybe she is hearing me out of phase. 😁 Excellent video Joe!

[@BizzieBangers]

what mic would you recommend for intermediate S1 user?

Also you can try and send this acoustic guitar mono signal to two separated L-R mono reverb FX channels, and set them up to taste, it kinda helps

[@NikosPage]

I love you so much Joe

[@sweetmotash]

Please make video about, recording and mastering electric guitar track, not mic'ed but line lvl from for example torpedo studio.

[@Sullivanok]

really good tutorial. Joe has the ability to talk in a non-techie way that I can relate to. Very much a musician point of view, not an engineer.

[@CATNAPPERBAND]

What if u record the guitar wired (DI) and through a microphone at the same time , then split those left and right , I do that and it seems to sound great

[@fasilamire]

hello ja suis sur mac et je ne vois plus les graphiques de mes plugin depuis la dernière mise a jours aidez moi.. merci

[@rooftoprecordingstudios]

Joe, I'd love to ask.. because I always get clients that say "just double my vocal"... What if you manually double the vocal, but then instead of delaying one, transpose it to a slightly deeper tone, then blend that in???

[@lnxguit]

It's the Haas Effect I believe. Tom Scholz used it with the Rockman

[@stupendousmusic4190]

GOOD!

[@danwhite7629]

You guys are smashing it it with the KZbin content lately. Loving it.

[@neil_keys]

Somebody knows how to double a mono piano track recorded from a synth and make it wider?

[@grschwim]

Great explanation of the problem that can occur when "false doubling." Question: Is there any tool that will vary the timing of an audio track ever so slightly, similar to MIDI humanize? This might let you get away with it.

[@sigmarconrad3560]

What if I'm not a guitar player? What if I just want a guitar sample to sound wider? Is there a "humanize"-tool wich can be used to simulate a 2nd recording?

[@judahgamermedia]

So I was tought that when you only have one track and you need to dub it and do this trick, you also have to flip the polarity of one of the tracks, usually the delayed one. wouldn't that be enough to have a difference in sound that translates better in mono?

[@marin4311]

But... the phase reversal method is exactly what I do when recording in M/S. Or am I missing something?

[@agesonjohanesburg2915]

I also use the Fredman technique and I duplicate naturally the two tracks and I use a distorted on one track in a clean on the other is that OK?

[@presonus]

Yeah that's great. Just check if the distorted one sounds better when you flip the polarity/phase. Sometimes that happens.

[@DanielBebawi]

I always record doubles for guitars but this video made me think of trying to put some doubbler effect on the guitar, might be interesting

[@lexp5519]

How does this compare to just using a matched pair of hyper cardioid mics and panning one hard right and the other mic hard left?

[@presonus]

That's totally different. That's a proper stereo recording. - Joe Gilder

[@b1j]

What about recording the one performance with two mics: one at 5” between the sound hole and bridge, and the other at 10” on the 14th fret? That was my genius brainstorm. Two mono tracks. What do you think, Joe? After I did it I was concerned with comb filtering, but I hoped with the timbre and room reverb differences I’d be OK.

[@presonus]

That's called stereo recording. Can capture a beautiful sound, but it's different from doubling. - Joe Gilder

[@TimmSpinn]

What are your thoughts on VocAlign or Revoice Pro in this situation? Say you have 2 tracks recorded, but they're just not tight enough. So you use these tools to time align them. But won't that end up causing the same kind of cancellation in mono if they are perfectly aligned? Almost like duplicating a single take but with only with some difference in amplitude?

[@CALIBA88]

if you cant pull two complete identic performances why bothering with recording at all? thats like, i want to be a pro-athlete but first i need a device helping me to get my ass out of the chair. i use doubles only to proof myself that everything is perfect, afterwards i mostly delete them because i need to slim and tame my voice not make it even more rich.

[@mr.nobody68]

I ran across a video on a channel by a guy called Warren Huart. The video was his vocal thickening technique adapted to Studio One. I tried it with guitar and it worked. While keeping your original guitar track: Create new track Pack folder with say 4 tracks Copy your audio clip to each track Pan alternating hard left and right Go to the inspector and *delay* as follows: Left 10ms Right 20ms Left 20ms Right 10ms Now *tune* ever so slightly Left 3 cents Right -3 cents Left -6 cents Right 6 cents You can pack your folder with more tracks to do this and continue in the same manner. I found that with heavy, down tuned chugging metal guitars, 4 tracks was pretty much the upper limit and for the song I'm working on now, I may end up taking it down to only 2 pitch shifted and delayed tracks. And it works in mono as well. And I created a Bus and added a Binaural Pan at 200%, and it sounds enormous in stereo. Anyhow, give it a try. I only did it because after 900 million attempts, I just couldn't nail down a second performance that I was happy with.

[@JacksStudio83]

so true bro..

[@louiewgroenewald]

What is your thoughts on adjusting the delay/ms on the one track that you pan another way and leaving the other track as is. Not adding a delay plugin, but adjusting the delay slightly different in the track info window(F4) This is what other's tend to advice.

[@louiewgroenewald]

Best ofcource is to always track twice..

[@Pulse2AM]

When I'm lazy and want to double vocals in a chorus I will take chorus 1 and double chorus 2 with it, then chorus 2 get's chorus 1 as the double then chorus 3 can use either 1 or 2. Since they are all sung, not copied from one chorus, there are no phase issues. Sometimes I have to move a phrase a touch to align them but I don't have to sing them again. You can do that with any thing really as long as they're unique parts.

[@miltmanmusic_BCS]

Thanks for the tip Joe! I have an issue with when I bounce small split audio or a little section on a track, it always combines more empty space and overlaps audio ahead and behind. Is there a way to just bounce the wave as is?

[@presonus]

You need to toggle grid snap to off, then bounce. You can also consolidate those two commands into just one keyboard shortcut using a Macro. -GBY

[@miltmanmusic_BCS]

@@presonus Thanks for the response and the helpful tip, that made all the difference.

[@jamesyoung2868]

Try changing the second track. different eq, effects etc... (i like the diffrerent track approach). I usually have several takes anyways...

[@NocturnusMortem]

Thats a cool idea

[@HellAbr]

now with the vocals please! :P thank you verymuch

[@CATNAPPERBAND]

Also that ear bending effect is great for ppl listening on psychedelics haha ❤

[@MemesForACause]

isn't double the sound +3db instead of +6db?

[@GJTG-hk5wt]

Hi Joe, What about the 'voice thickening trick' that Warren Huart is using? I tried it on guitar and I liked it pretty much. I would like to hear your opinion on that.

[@presonus]

Not sure what the trick is. - Joe Gilder

[@GJTG-hk5wt]

@@presonus kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2mxYX-if9Cth8k The 'trick' is to copy the track several times, pan each track hard left and right. Then delay and tune every track in alternate order.

[@AlexisGitarre]

but can you tell my why for example John Petrucci of Dream theater used this exact technique with 7ms delay on his guitarsound? And if you have a device or plugin that is randomizing the second track a little bit you don't get the phasing anymore?

[@presonus]

sometimes it works, I guess. But a lot of people don't know how to listen for the phase sound. - Joe Gilder

[@sarahparson1]

Very informative and easy to understand love how you are sharing. I JUST COMPLETED A SONG and I doubled my vocals by copying and pasting them. Can I have your knowledge on if that is acceptable or not. I really loved how the master came out. Although I watched this after and it has me thinking........ even though how much I love the way the track came out. Still have to listen to it in my car though lol thanks again! Please let me know your opinion or advice! ThankYou !!

[@presonus]

Depends on why you doubled it. - Joe Gilder

[@sarahparson1]

@@presonus interesting. truly thank you so much.

[@CALIBA88]

copy doubles are like athletes on doping. it is pathetic. you should pull the same f´performance 2 times. copys give you more problems than benefits and often doubles are not necessary at all. instead of doubling, let your voice crack more, use more pressure etc etc etc. doubling in vocals is something most ppl mix up with spotstacks and harmonys. addlibs are powerfull too. doubling in the best case is giving you like 3% for 50%work. a addlib line is improvised and creates mroe power.

[@agesonjohanesburg2915]

I record my band live . Everyone and everything is it’s own separate microphone so the tracks are good however we do not have time to duplicate any tracks what do you suggest if I only have one rhythm and one lead guitar for example . thank you very much Joe you are a huckleberry.

[@presonus]

It's not uncommon to go back and record extra guitars after the main recording session. - Joe Gilder

[@jasonjbundy]

Sometimes it is not possible to get the performance recorded twice. What I have found helpful on mono sources: 1) Delaying on of the the audio events, in the inspector, between 20ms - 75ms seems to help. It’s ok when mono checking. 2) Using Voxengo’s free Sound Touch plugin - results are great when mono checking.

[@CALIBA88]

how about not doubling then? when i get chicken i dont try to cook beef.

[@nexusnostalgia]

Crap im very guilty of doing that. So what about drum loops like the stock ones on S1? I always try to make the drum loops wide,panned and thick like Steve Albini drums but never can achieve that nice dynamic sound. I mean i know ya can only do so much with loops but..oh man that song sounds sweet.kinda reminds me of M83

[@BasementGuitarSuperstar]

Here is the issue I’m having. I’m recording by miking my amps externally. I can do the initial guitar track, but when I go to do overdubs (same part with gain for instance) it won’t let me do it without there being a half second delay on the new one. How do I fix that so that I can play the second part while listening to the first in the headphones?

[@GuamSawyer]

thank you. being a rapper i always duplicated tracks

[@WheezyJoe]

Would this be true for vocals as well? I'm just wondering how doubler plug ins / adt ever became popular?

[@WintermintP]

But Joe, what are we supposed to do if we can't get the double to be tight enough however hard we try because the material is too difficult to nail down consistently that we could only do the one take and no double? :'< -WintermintP

[@CHOKSTARmusic]

Well, I recorded this KZbin audio, went to that fake double playing in mono and cut it and then went to manual double playing in mono and cut it. Then, I gain matched both of them to -23 LUFS short term and applied soothe on both of them. Now it is hard to distinguish them because both of them now have different (and small) amount of comb filtering at different frequencies at different time so it is very hard to distinguish, which is which. Also I know, the KZbin audio I got is not 100% accurate because I recorded this very video's audio output using my interface's internal routing and KZbin do apply some audio compression. But nice Tutorial Joe.

[@chepastaoficial]

Hi Joe! I recorded a bass with two lines at the same time, one with a microphone and the other from a pre amp, if I don't have the opportunity to record a second different capture, what do you recommend that I do with those two captures?

[@chepastaoficial]

I tried to invert the phase of one of them and I liked the result, but according to what you say in this video that is a mistake.

[@presonus]

That's different. Bass doesn't need to be doubled, but recording the mic and preamp is pretty normal. Sometimes flipping the polarity makes it sound better. - Joe Gilder

[@shaunbishop1416]

❤ top quality once again. I wish you could fix my tracks 😢

[@HughManatea]

I usually record two tracks panned together as a pair at a time one hard left one hard right. Then a second take panned right 50 left 50. I am wondering if this is my issue.

[@presonus]

Not quite following you - Joe Gilder

[@HyrulsMusic]

Yes, it's an issue. You shouldn't do the first two tracks (the hard panned ones) in one take. Each track has to be another take. If you have two tracks hard panned + two 50-panned, then that makes it 4 tracks, so you gotta record it four times.

[@HughManatea]

@@presonus I usually arm two tracks at the same time. You can record multiple tracks like that so I usually do it with guitar. However as was pointed out below it is an issue because I am just recording what would have been duplicated in real time. There is still a lack of dynamics therefore was an issue. Good video.