PRO Cycling Team Sues their Bike Supplier for unsafe Bikes!! WTF

[@Insert_Screename_Here]

"someone is suing me, and it's not ME, for once."

[@Hambini]

You knew what I meant!

[@Insert_Screename_Here]

@@Hambini been following you for years! I was just telling someone about your Orbea video the other day. Thanks for helping me identify my bottom bracket last week too.

[@robertthrossell4321]

Looking cool dude... 👌

[@lemonshire1]

lmao

[@mpenn]

'someone is suing someone'

[@10ktube]

Imagine showing this video in court, and they have to watch the pen intro as part of evidence. I'd love to see it documented with subtitles and all.

[@NotingIsWhatItSeems]

Your honor i object. The person in the video is a five year old.

[@nachooos2506]

Lmao🤣

[@tylerkronebusch5642]

That or the lawyer would warn everyone about his “Hello Hambni Fans!!” And then proceed to watch half the courtroom jump😂

[@CycleNLincs]

Please can it be entered into evidence, that the penis working.

[@colecoleman1499]

Lmaoooo😅😅😅😅

[@danc1829]

Bet GCN would still find a way to big them up 😂😂

[@PeakTorque]

One thing I've experienced, and its extra noticeable on disc bikes because of the higher braking forces, is that the bearings clunk fore and aft under sudden braking. The braking force overcomes the friction lock of the tapered bearing races in their seats and you get a clunk. So you tighten the top cap bolt. Overtightening this can pull expander plug upwards, finally making contact with the bottom of the top cap and you loose all preload. Clunking continues and further tightening the top bolt literally doesn't do anything. This is very common but most people don't know what is going on. Finally, the clunking leads to the top bearing wedge digging into the fork. None of the parts are chamfered or radii'd either, because they're designed by fucking idiots on Fiver (ok made that bit up but not far off). Slipping expander plugs (upwards) thus loss of preload and non chamfered clamping parts are probably responsible for about 50% of steerer failures. This NEVER could happen with an Alu steerer and a starnut. Add in the fact the bike industry decided to start making square/ D shaped steerers with no real experience, and the fact that since Feb 2020 hardly any western reps/QC engineers have visited their China suppliers, we are in for a few years backlog of really shit products.

[@SgtFinaldo]

To be honest, expander plugs for carbon forks have always made me a bit uneasy, and also with disc forks, a lot of manufacturers do the "internal cable" tunnel from top of fork down to the disc caliper. Top that off with your very valid concerns with disc brake force around the hub area of contact, not to mention that a lot of forks aren't beefed up enough, there is bound to be issues.

[@bengt_axle]

Yup. Which is my (rim brake bike) has an aluminium steerer and star nut. The only purpose of the top cap bolt is to set preload. The star nut cannot split the steerer.

[@marcustan5868]

Then why did u buy a tcr advanced sl disc?🤣

[@Spartan9567]

I don't think it's related to disk brakes (other than the forces you described exacerbating the existing issue) but rather integrated stems, and poor design and manufacturing with carbonfibre.

[@Hambini]

I have noticed bearing clunk on some disc wheels with quite small bearings, 6802. I'm not sure if it's the hub flex that causes it or the fact of it being disc. In either case you don't seem to get it in a rim brake.

[@danfuerthgillis4483]

Simple mechanics, use a 50mm expansion plug like I use and that means the weight of your body is not only on 2.5 cm but further down the steerer tube. This and proper torque eliminates this nonsense. This ridiculous “weight weenie” crap is why these problems arise.

[@Hambini]

Quite correct

[@Hexsense]

I remember reading on weight weenies many years back: "expander is just there to help preload the headset before you tighten the stem. Once the stem is clamped. You can remove the expander from the fork." Yeah, sure. That'd be right if the steerer tube was way overbuilt. Which isn't a safe assumption.

[@danfuerthgillis4483]

@@Hexsense For Carbon under no circumstances should that plug ever be removed. I use a 50 mm expander plug so that it passes by the spacers on the bottom or bottom. Many people forget this and and it’s why they have issues. The expander plug that comes with most carbon forks sets is for zero spacers!! Most people don’t realize that and then add spacers and have a plug that is too small to go pass the spacers. I am stunned that this is happening!!

[@driventomadness117]

@@danfuerthgillis4483 Incorrect. Always follow manufacturers advice - some do not require the expander bung.

[@Reanimator999]

Ever incessant whining from weight weenies are making road bikes less safe, in my opinion. Less material in critical areas, less durable and less safe.

[@sylvainmichaud2262]

With the new designs, after 3 years+ of use, the rate of failure of carbon bikes will become catastrophic. It's great for sales but dangerous for cyclists. Cyclists are spending too much money to buy the unicorn bike. As a consequence, Manufacturers wanting to grab that cash are leaving us with engineering that is compromising everyone's safety.

[@4nz-nl]

Which, actually, is a damn shame. If someone is overpaying the crap out of himself for my product, that gives me a free ticket to give him the best of the best & still make heaps of money, which makes it possible to make the next one cost even more. Who doesn't want that?

[@apair4002]

Imagine expander plug ruin the steerer tube and press fit bb destroy the bottom shell (+ load from rider). As a structure, cfrp parts are phenomenal, however it is not good to be press. The bike industry selling point is lightweight, however it is already at its limit for safety. Too stiff, light and thin eventually it will sudden fail. And it will break your bank account too 😂

[@kittytrail]

@@apair4002 they don't care, they won't do the engineering nor pay for the adequate level of quality control needed with those sub-600g frames. they be spending way more on marketing though... 🙄

[@mirciusx]

Maybe the steel era will be back by then. Titanium frames next?

[@kittytrail]

@@mirciusx steel is still good. more than good enough for most cyclists except the herd roaming ones and them grams counters... 🙄

[@axuh382]

I wish I was a real engineer and not an IT engineer because those bike powerpoints bang.

[@DerRofflers]

glad you made good use of the 250€ I paid for a bottom bracket of yours to take an MS paint course, big production value in this video

[@WowRixter]

The 5 year old figured that 7 of 60 was more than 10% without a calculator. Impressive

[@borano2031]

May lead to a bright future... Rgr

[@tjmapcc]

Would be interesting to know if the Groupama FDJ (who have been riding on Lapierre bikes for years) had the same issues. A world tour team with 30 riders (and 12 more from their continental team) would have had a ridiculous number of failures if it was a design issue on the bikes.

[@tomrachellesfirstdance7843]

That was my first thought too, they would of stopped them riding the bikes if they was that worried, they would not want a world tour bike potentially failing. I am sure FDJ would of done something by now. Pretty sure there a lot more teams across europe on LaPierre bikes as well which are not sponsored so they would of stopped using them straight away ?

[@WanderingSword]

it could be just related to one particular model of Lapierre that Saint Pirin is supplied with

[@channul4887]

It's fairly unlikely that French team would go publicly against French bike brand. You'd never know they had any issues unless someone crashed and hurt themselves during the race. But even then I'd expect them to swipe it under the carpet.

[@benanderson9551]

Only a guess but they could use another headset and simply paint/rebrand it. Could even use a different material/quality of carbon fibre for a big team compared with a small team

[@nstrug]

@@channul4887 why do you think that a French team would not sue a supplier just because they also happen to be French?? That’s just bizarre. Do Americans never sue other Americans then? Oh…wait.

[@davidpatrick9302]

Thanks to Hambini I always turn my volume down before playing KZbin videos!

[@SignorLuigi]

The graphic animations made me weep with joy. Well done, Hambini! 👏👏👏

[@JackofNothingess]

So if your a "expert witness" in tort cases, do they make you wear that white wig? If so, what does your hairdresser charge for that "service"?

[@Zatteneus]

She inspects if his pen is working

[@markjerham2478]

@@Zatteneus she/he has never been disclosed, assume nothing in this world 🤣

[@phil_d]

I had to keep rewinding 10 seconds to see the skill of a 5 year old's PowerPoint animation. It was hypnotic 🤣🤣🤣

[@pmcmpc]

Re: adding more spacers under stem - it's fine, assuming you have an expander that's sufficiently long. A lot of stock bungs are scarily short and/or badly designed though. One of the few good things Colnago do is supply a 100mm bung as standard - allowing for a lot of spacer leeway, and making a catastrophic failure of the front end while JRA much less likely even if the steerer does fail.

[@litesp]

A longer bung helps with spacers on top of the stem in order to prevent crushing load of the stem, not so much for the bottom spacers. Too many bottom spacers lead to excessive steer tube flex and stress failure.

[@David_Hoskins]

Has Hambini been on a Powerpoint course recently?? Excellent work!!

[@j1y0ni]

I wondered why during the Tour of Britain the St Piran riders seems to be riding random bikes.

[@savagepro9060]

"random bikes" is that a new brand?

[@RoelMouris]

I bought a Lapierre (xelius) a couple of months ago and rode it for 3 weeks before I noticed my front wheel was wobbling. I stopped and noticed that my through axle thread was not fixed to my fork anymore. Lapierre has a system where they mount the thread with a locking nut to the front fork. But apperently this is just a shitty option, if they would have put the locking nut at the inside it would be better, because then you would still clamp the fork if you lose it. But now it is just there to come loose and give me a wobbly wheel in return. I don't know if the seven fork failures you mentioned are more specified, but it could be they had the same problem I had.

[@ericburgess4995]

Glad to see the pen was working at 4:06 for the juicy part of the hairdresser… I mean headset schematic. Great explanation on the forces involved clamping a bung in an oval with a round stem over top. Not forgiving the manufacturer but this is what you get when aesthetics over-ride good design.

[@teok7735]

I've never seen you so genuinely happy, and i am very happy for that.

[@eteokles3]

Really stupid from St. Piran. They will never ever get a deal on bikes again. If you have worked in pro racing you know that all of the teams have issues with their bikes sooner or later. There are the most horrendous stories out there. However, in the end it's a matter of intended use. If you'd read the warranty the abuse these bikes get in the pro peloton is certainly not covered.

[@stratrat57]

Something I see in the shop also is customers steer tubes cut too long, with maybe 20mm of spacer on top of the stem. So the stem pinch bolts grip a section of the steer tube that is not supported inside by the expansion plug (bung?)

[@n0ch91c3s]

Depends on the fork and the designer's intent. Some forks have compression plugs that aren't intended to be a support. Some only support the very top edge, a particular point of weakness when a stem clamp sits slightly above it. Others are very definitely a support and should pass through the clamped area. People should be very careful about using aftermarket fork compression plugs.

[@matthewschreiner2039]

We had to do the same thing back in the 90's with our bike supplier. 8 broken collar bones between 5 teammates. They denied responsibility

[@stephensaines7100]

[8 broken collar bones between 5 teammates.] Whoa...that's huge.

[@matthewschreiner2039]

@@stephensaines7100 I don't remember how many frames we went through. Maybe 20. Always the same issue on the frame. I crashed due to the fault, but fortunately no broken bones. It was a German frame company trying to get into the US market. They withdrew as a result

[@oreocarlton3343]

@@matthewschreiner2039 what was the issue with the frames?

[@matthewschreiner2039]

@@oreocarlton3343 This was back in the day when alloy frames were using braze-ons to run the front and rear mech cables. They over heated the welds and compromised the integrity of the down tube at the weld. The result was a collapse of the down tube, top tube and head tube when put under stress, ie over exposed manhole covers, bumpy roads, etc. Not fun while racing.

[@oreocarlton3343]

@@matthewschreiner2039 who man that is messed up qr

[@andyhodge9703]

I wondered why during to Tour of Britain , such as it was , the St Piran team seemed to be using a number of different bikes . I spotted an SL7 a Trek and a Cervelo . Now I know why

[@andrewegan7011]

Why cancel the T of B. The Queen would have loved the Isle of Wight visit.

[@tristanguillemette6777]

To add, the force of disc brakes is greater than calipers. So I would think fork issues are to happen if it wasn't made stronger. There's also the potential of a slightly loose headset which could make the fork wobble each time you front brake and then "mark" the fork.

[@aitorbleda8267]

They could glue a spring steel ring/plate on the wear area and make that area have a place to put the bonded metal. A bit more expensive and a few grams heavier but would not have steel vs carbon.

[@catherineseiferth259]

The bearings I work with ride on the crown race and don't contact the lower bearings at all. Only carbon/alloy interface is between crown race and the bearing along the chamfered lip in tapered forks. I'm not sure there's enough structural rigidity or space for much of a metal ring+adhesive layer.

[@GNX157]

Most teams cut the tube too short. It should protrude slightly above where the clamping force of the stem is, then use a small spacer to allow bearing preload to be applied to the stack. Having the tube too short only invites crushing it at the top.

[@ADF-js9vi]

So is it the steerer tube screw that stops the fork 'falling out' or is it the handlebar stem? What is your advice for best set up? Thank you. 🙂

[@BennyCornelissen]

Regarding the 'marked fork steerer', I had to think about the Tarmac SL7 fork recall. Given that the Lapierre also has a (non-standard but now common) headset where cables/hoses are routed through the headset, this might be a similar issue to the SL7 fork issue, which may very well be a manufacturing defect. So the big question is, who is going to hire you first? LaPierre or the St Piran team? 😛

[@davidburgess741]

LaPierre certainly isn't made in France so the consumer will be safe from any shill coming from Hambini's quarter! The pen will always work in the consumer's interest! Some day this type of failure will kill someone, and may have already.

[@LZ6U]

I'm always relieved when a quick tests confirms the pen is in excellent working order.

[@lloydhlavac6807]

It's been a while since I've watched a Hambini video, but I did remember to turn the volume down before letting the video start. 😉

[@RReese08]

Looks to me like a lose-lose situation for both sides. Accell/LaPierre/Raliegh sponsored bikes that may have an insufficient design to a team who, as a member on one of the lower rungs of the UCI food chain, may (or may not) have the most knowledgeable or competent mechanics and management. And if the team had these problems, why wait so long to bring their complaint to court (and public opinion) now? That is unless neither side could reach any negotiated arrangement or fix among themselves beforehand. In the end, this will be just another day of doing business for Accell. For the team it probably means nobody will want to sponsor or support them, which will force the team to either fold or reform itself under a new name with hopefully nobody among the sponsorship ranks the wiser. This shows what happens when you have a team with limited resources being given kit they are unable to possibly maintain properly. Which means that maybe what the UCI should do is declare that teams in the lower ranks should race aluminum bikes so the racers can concentrate on their sport, while relieving mechanics and team managers of having to worry about exotic crap and concentrate on keeping the teams running and competing in races. Making the lower ranks race on aluminum bikes would also lower the cost of the sport for everybody while also seeing which racers are good enough to move up to the next level. Just my opinion.

[@user-mm9hv2oj8d]

Raleigh will survive the team will not. You can not bring stuff like this public if you want people to work with you in the future

[@danielebergonzi8461]

The lawyers always win

[@taxi9554]

….With rim breaks?

[@TheTrev53]

There’s no problem with the mechanic’s, as they’re fully qualified, work in the shop and build to the brands specifications

[@georgeforeman89]

You have any idea how much the UCI makes from bike manufacturers? All those companies have to do is threaten to stop paying and the UCI will cave in to the pressure. Bike companies are making WAY too much money on carbon bikes to give up that cash cow. They've spent years and millions of $$ on marketing saying how shit everything is except for carbon.

[@TypeVertigo]

Fun fact - former GCN presenter Chris Opie (you might know him as the sprinter among them) was involved with Saint Piran after leaving GCN circa 2017 or so, as he wanted to return to competition. Not sure if he's still involved with that team currently; last I heard he did work for Le Col. Opie has his own KZbin channel as well.

[@bbikerlawrence]

Opie has no link with that team but you’re correct he now works for Le Col.

[@VanDungLe2510]

5:58 Can i just install a longest expander plug i can find (preferably, it has the length equal to the total stack of spacers+stem itself). By then, does it really matter if i put the spacer above or below the stem? (With bike fit out of the equation)

[@kitten-inside]

You want a single short spacer above the stem. A longer one serves no purpose beyond the first rides. Once you dial in your bike fit, cut the steerer to size so only that little bit sticks out. If you have too many spacers below the stem for the plug to reach, maybe try a different size or different geometry frame. Don't try to turn a road frame into a city or CX bike.

[@VanDungLe2510]

@@kitten-inside Gotcha. Thanks.

[@WanderingSword]

longer expander is better than shorter exapander. However, this doesn't change the fact that a bunch of spacers under the stem will still cause a higher stress on the steerer. The ideal way is to use a long expander with zero spacers (but of course this setup may not work with many folks due to incompatible bike fitting of using no spacers)

[@tychoMX]

Yes. It helps. I have bought an extra long expander plug to use in all my bikes. I cracked a steerer about 10 y ago. It was during a crash, but was only obvious after disassembly. There was a gouge and delamination exactly at the point where the bolt pinched the steerer. Most of my bikes have a single spacer, but I feel a bit safer this way. I like a thin spacer on top to ensure the cap/top bolt doesn’t pinch the edge of the carbon steerer.

[@Reanimator999]

And here we are getting screwed over poor quality frames... Even the pro teams are not exempt...

[@hhuodod2209]

They are not a pro team lol

[@PersonaN007Grata]

How did it even devolve into litigation? I’m sure the team contacted the manufacturer every time there was an issue. Maybe the manufacturer replaced each bike but later the team decided that they didn’t want to race on a dangerous bike so they decided to sue for a refund and the manufacturer denied it? If I was the manufacturer, I would’ve been ashamed and wouldn’t have wanted this to go public and quickly rectified the situation before it got out of hand. Seems like the team just wants their riders to be safe and the manufacturer has too much of an ego to do anything about it.

[@euhm]

in a recent edition of Fiets (a dutch cycling magazine) they reviewed the this bike and Lapierre themselves said there was a risk of the fork impacting the frame an destroying itself and the frame. This was on the 2021 model. It would be resolved on the 2022 model according to Lapierre. Meanwhile they still went along and sold the 2021 frame-set knowing full well there was a major issue with the frame-set. This to me screams corporate bullshit and no interest whatsoever in making a quality product or customer safety. It's like Renault or VW or any car brand for that matter saying our front suspension isn't bolted on properly and the wheels may fall off, but here you go, we'll sell it anyway. Cannondale and Cervelo have done the same thing in recent history... This shit really has to stop! People's life are at risk when it comes to these things.

[@danton1982]

This is the second time this year for Lapierre to have a problem like this. A few months back there was a product recall on certain Zesty frames due to a failure in the downtube near the BB. Luckily my serial number wasn't one of the affected bikes. This doesn't look good for Lapierre and that's a shame because I love the design of their bikes.

[@rattatumor]

4:10 please tell, how to fill this gap if i have same and have more safety in future ? (I understand it depends from bearing)

[@Megadeth6633]

Do you have a better design idea for the current headset systems? (that would be reasonably cost effective for the industry)

[@Hambini]

The time one isolates the stem from the preload. It does use some odd sized bearings though

[@lauig]

The one person it would be interesting to get insights from is the chief mechanic for Groupama-FDJ, Lapierre has been their bike suppliers/technical partners for a long time. Never heard the slightest bit of rumor from them regarding the bikes like we heard from AG2R when they had those Eddy Merckxx (Ridley) frames the whole team pretty much hated. With the full GFDJ roster and their youth team, we're talking somewhere near double the amount of bikes and world tour level racing, including Paris-Roubaix and the Ronde which chew frames like a cannondale BB eats bearings. (Not associated with the same structure, but same main sponsor the women FDJ-Suez team is also getting their bikes from Lapierre, no rumors of such kind have emerged from them either)

[@davidgow9093]

Glad I read the comments as I was just about to ask the same question!

[@lauig]

@@davidgow9093 it's weird to me this only stems from St Piran, when a world tour team or a conti team invited to world class races is dissatisfied with a frame it's never kept hidden for too long, we know as another example the B&B hotels team is not too keen on their KTM bikes, they should switch providers next year (and get rebranded with Paris municipality as their main sponsor).

[@Penalist]

What did they dislike about the EM bikes?

[@lauig]

@@Penalist it was mostly the weight and lack of aero refinement, especially for the climbing bikes. Rumor has it the team described them as sluggish. On flat courses they could use the same Ridley Noah Fast as Lotto Soudal (that were masked off to look like EM bikes) so it didn't bother them as much.

[@Penalist]

@@lauig Thank you.

[@samsepiol7080]

6:17 how much spacers on top of the stem would be to much? 2cm? 3cm? (Asking for a friend)

[@jeffbrunton3291]

Check that the bung is providing support to at least the top stem bolts, (ie level with) and preferably the bottom as well. If your spacers mean that there is no bung level with the stem bolts, then that can be dangerous since when you tighten them there is no support inside the steerer tube which can crack (maybe even if not overtightened)

[@davidburgess741]

Question: Would it even be possible to detect whether a stem had been overtightened forensically. Maybe it's time for the UCI to step in and ban carbon steer tubes. The public will buy whatever the pros use and most aren't 60kg riders with pro mechanics following them. If manufacturers can't make consistently safe products, some agency should be involved.

[@Hambini]

You can only make assumptions based on evidence and sound engineering practice. For cases like this, it's generally based on the balance of probabilities and not a criminal level which would be beyond reasonable doubt.

[@basengelblik5199]

You can only proof this if you to proper validation and verification and to a test to fail series. Your test needs to contain a significant amount bikes and failures to be statistically valid. Very costly 😀

[@LuescherTeknik]

You can find damage to the steerer like this using ultrasound ndt. Damage to this area is very common.

[@robertp7209]

Take a new unused bike and intentionally over tighten it and see what happens, keep tightening it until damage is detected. Then take another new unused bike, and follow exactly the manufacturers instructions on tightening the stem, duly witnessed or better yet performed by 3rd party experts, with certified tested torque wrenches, video recorded. Ride and ride and see what happens. Use a rider at the design limit weight. In the US with injuries or worse, experts accepted by the judge from both sides will be deposed, depending on what is or isn’t uncovered, the case will most likely be settled, not enough court time for everyone to go before a jury. What happens during the deposition is what matters since each sides lawyer knows what it will look like to a jury of lay people.

[@VedranBaric]

That happens when you choose the wrong hairdresser 😂

[@boriss.861]

Sachin you've knocked it for 6 right into the Stands! Such a pity you can't do follow ups on The GCN Group of Companies and their rave reviews!

[@joshuabajao5767]

To be fair to GCN, it is an entertainment channel. They even said that they do not do reviews. Hence, i watch it as it is, an entertainment channel (love their silliness and challenges). I watch their bike (ads) for entertainment. Remember, don’t bite the hands that feed you. If I’m going to buy a bike, i would go to hambini, peak torque, cam nichols (less acientific but quite entertaining), etc. David Arthur on the other hand… yeah, he’s a sham.

[@rcg9573]

@Jobsworth Jobber Yep. David Arthur, GC Performance, GCN, Gravel Cyclist, BikeRadar, Cycling Weakly, The Radavist and a slew of other so called independent reviewers are nothing but the equivalent of paid marketing propaganda shills for the firms producing this junk. It's comical that so many fools watch their channels and take anything that these snake oil salesmen say seriously. Every bike they "test" is great with few exceptions and they'll occasionally offer some very minor quibble in an otherwise excellent review in a lame attempt to portray themselves as objective and independent. They are directly incentivized to sing the praises of every bike they "review" otherwise the free samples supplied to them dry up and the gullible eyeballs watching their vids comes to an end. It's actually quite a good marketing propaganda model that works well on a mass of gullible consumers. 🙂

[@danoontjeh123]

Was just watching the Elves review, guess we'll watch this after.

[@danoontjeh123]

Adding to this: very interesting case. Hope we get an update at some point. Also great animation, explained it very clearly, thanks Hambini

[@Freacer1]

That "marked steerer" part sounds a bit like the SL-7 issue with the hose guide assembly in the steerer tube - hard / sharp edges marking the carbon fork. I´d guess that the current LaPierre bikes are integrated to a similar level. Could of course also be a manufacturing defect in the stem which causes a similar problem. On the other hand, I´ve seen to many people on the web or IRL just guesstimating torque values and screwing around with carbon parts without a torque wrench. But I cant really imagine a bike team suing someone if their own mechanics would be causing the issues.

[@frankswildy]

Isn't it in Raleigh/Lapierre's interest to fight this quite hard? Provided they can show that the overtightening is the issue. They can point to World Tour teams using their bikes presumably without the same issues. Settling out of court isn't going to look great for them. On the other hand, it's a publicity coup for any manufacturer who isn't Lapierre to supply Saint Piran. All they need is for Saint Piran to not sue them and their bikes look superior!

[@kevincross9206]

I had an experience with Crapierre whilst working in a bike shop a few years back. Customer chose the particular bike purely because he didn’t want to ride a Stumpjumper like all his mates. After a few weeks of riding it developed an issue in the pivot of the swing arm, we checked it out and it was under masses of tension due to poor tolerances, and Lapierre don’t want to know! Customer returned the bike and brought a Stumpjumper….(which was flawless!)

[@MrSchattka]

Keep fighting the good fight, Hambini. We need more people like you.

[@kristiaandoms2822]

Does the World Tour Team FDJ ride the same frames, and, Lapierre for years? I have not heard of any complaints there............

[@Paul020]

Would all these steerer tube problems be mitigated by just using an aluminum steerer tube ? Or titanium ? Would it introduce bonding issues ?

[@devdroid9606]

Argon 18 used to bond an aluminum sleeve to the inside of the fork steerer to give it more strength and durability.

[@Paul020]

@@devdroid9606 yes, a aluminum tube can be bonded in. However, that does not address the "ring of death" issue. Perhaps a very thin titanium tube needs to be bonded on the outside of the steerer tube. Wonder how much that would increase price ?

[@apocalypsee94]

the production quality is insane

[@soapowejazz]

it's also bad practice to put the stem right on top of the steerer tube. Reason is that doing so the stem tightens on the open end of the tube and there the tube is the weakest. Always have at least one 5-10mm spacer on top of the steerer tube. And possibly use one of those 70mm long expander bung (such as the one from DEDA). This way a much longer section of the steerer tube is internally supported. The bike in question has integrated cables, so that will for sure cause some more weak spots in the steerer tube.

[@pigeonpoo1823]

Great content. Love the new PowerPoint drawings. Well done

[@sebbelito2975]

Question for you Hambini, my Lord! I have purchased a copy of an SL7 with an uneven thick steerer tube, my idea is too epoxi glue a 2mm thick aluminum (23.8mm) tube 80mm long inside the steerer as it is lighter and replaces the traditional expander. Hopefully it also gives more support and improves safety. What is your take on this with gluing a tube inside the steerer? I know cervelo is known for it. If 2mm is thick enough.

[@fasdiablo]

I remember a video from Raul at Luescher Teknik about fork stem failures on Canyon bikes a while ago. He suggested that the stem plugs used were generally too short so that when in place they rarely butted in the fork tube at the same point the stem was fitted. This could depend on the number of spacers used. If the expander was 20mm and 2 or 3 spacers were used then the expander could sit either higher or lower than the point the stem was fitted. Raul's solution was to use an expander that was 40mm (guessed at number) to ensure it expanded out internally in the fork tube against the stem and so spread the clamping load against a solid structure and in doing so not flexing a carbon tube with nothing for it to press onto . . .

[@thrashstronaut]

They used to be known as "Snapierre" in the MTB community due to their shite QC and frequently broken frames.

[@10ktube]

Long ago I was told to never use more spacers under your stem than the diameter of your steerer tube (in the case of carbon fiber tube). That seemed way high to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case here. A lot of frames are so low relative to the size of the frame, maybe they have to stack them higher just for fitment purposes, unless everyone is Gumby and super flexible and fine riding that low on a frame already most likely undersized.

[@peterdieleman303]

I think the opposite is most often true for pro riders: running a stem w/o any spacers can also increase the risk of marking your steerer. Some manu. recommend always to have at least ONE 5mm spacer under your stem (trek/bontrager). You will find marks directly underneath your stem, on the front side. Can be exegerated if you have a poorly machined stem with a sharp interface.

[@paulmarr7255]

is this because the bung is trying to expand the steerer out to an oversized spacer rather than a bolted up stem when too many spacers on top. So not much outer support for the steerer.

[@kubaBST]

is there a programme to get those totalled bikes for free? I am interested

[@weijingburr2392]

"I think it's French, they're from Cornwall" I don't know why that's so damn funny

[@chirayuthammarit1492]

So surprised that stuff like this happened. Why did Pro team want to take this to court? I think it's better to deal with these problems secretly with bike manufacturer.

[@cup_and_cone]

There's no financial gain secretly handling it...

[@savagepro9060]

1:53 1. Accell "so . . . even though it sounds French it's not. It's Dutch! 2. Gouda, even though it sounds Dutch, it is French! 3. Matthieu van Der Poel even though he is Dutch he is French!

[@bobhopeandnohope300]

could they not use a plug in the bottom of the fork with a threaded insert and a long bolt instead of that setup?

[@tychoMX]

Cervelo’s “solution “ was to glue a long reinforcing metal section into all the forks sold by their dealers. You’d have to wait an extra day or so while they sized the number of spacers and the adhesive cured. So essentially the plug pressed against a metal part - more rigid, but I think more importantly it wouldn’t score and create a weak point.

[@jeffbrunton3291]

Often the bung is quite short, supposedly because the stress is at the top. But you can get full length bungs for safety. My CAnnondale bung was set up wrong, by the shop, and I just copied it. When I did it per the instructions laterit was quite different - zero spacers allowed at the top to ensure the bung supports the top stem bolts ( the lower bolts are less important)

[@iddra1868]

Specialized, Cervelo, Raleigh... It shouldn't be this hard to design a stem that doesn't break into pieces. Can't they use an aluminium insert and a normal star nut?

[@basedgodstrugglin]

You would think the team would’ve been getting the “bike team special” for frames as you were talking about with Oompa Loompa, so reinforced in certain areas and good QC ***I am assuming the frames came to them flawed and it wasn’t an issue with the mechanics/whoever works on their bikes

[@tomhood4872]

I once had a Lapierre Carbon Cross cyclocross bike with a matching Easton fork which had a unique design. The carbon steerer tube was internally threaded with very course, molded carbon threads. Instead of an expander plug, the top cap bolt screwed into an aluminum nut which had course threads on the outside and screwed into the internally threaded carbon steerer tube. Just like an expander plug, the aluminum nut was supposed to be placed at the same level as the stem clamp to provide support inside the steerer tube. It was rock solid, and I never got the impression the carbon threads would be fragile, at least under normal use and torque. What do you think of that design, Hambini?

[@sirhumphreyappleby3856]

Always wondered waht the space limit is for a tapered headset with startnut. My mtb has quite a few so i could raise the bars to a comfortable level.

[@arifazhari7598]

Regarding the spacer kinda of things. I believe if long expander plug will at least reduce risk of puting lots of spacer above the stem. Since the whole steerer coloum is supported by the plug.

[@countspokeula539]

Same issue as the SL7. Internal cabling not allowing proper compression, leading to loose headset and then inevitable stress damage.

[@NeoPayneHK]

could it be the compression crown and the expander plug working together make the steertube crack? like sworks GFDJ didnt say anyting yet

[@HappyDuude]

Love how a failed fork is a 'concern' and not a 'better hope your liability insurance is up to date, because what the fuck'

[@clivewilliams3661]

In my experience, in the first instance the Court will highly recommend mediation (and your damned if you don't accept it) that will probably result in a settlement that could reasonably be for only 50% of the claim, which means that the claim is not really for the monetary value but for some other political reason, which is not identified. You are probably correct that St.Piran will now find it hard to get a new bike sponsor for maybe many years so that they will have to purchase their bikes on the open market. I'm surprised that St.Piran dived into litigation on a technical point that should have been sorted long ago.

[@therealSIRBOOM]

These teams SHOULD HAVE TO buy their bikes on the open market... through a local bike shop... at full price. Racing based on who has the best sponsor is awful.

[@clivewilliams3661]

@@therealSIRBOOMThis happens in all sports. If you can't afford to build your own equipment then you have to go to the market to get it and of necessity it will be a special version of what is commonly available so it makes sense to engage with a manufacturer direct to get that specialised kit. For the manufacturer to get something out of it they will want their brand marketing. Sponsorship is therefore a convenient vehicle to do that. There is obviously a cost advantage to being sponsored for the team/individual but for the manufacturer the costs are relatively small.

[@iansellers1251]

I asked the question at the Tour Of Britain Was told it was a get out of jail card for St Piranne not having all the team on the correct Lapierre Bikes

[@greggsenne1268]

I had a similar problem with a carbon seat post. The clamp put a strain on the post wherein the carbon fractured and failed. Aluminum works better.

[@mygoldfishdrown5178]

I sued a Chinese restaurant because every couple hrs I had to keep eating more

[@keithallen4313]

Would any one know where i get a long steerer plug for my Defy 2015 carbon fork .

[@EdMontego]

What is happen now to the Big Teams like FDJ who are using those Lapierre Bikes⁉

[@ArnageLM]

Why/how did Cam got shafted?

[@ridethelakes]

It was a fair race, he had a zwift Tron bike, as did many other competitors. He won fair and square. However it was found that some months previously he had gained the Tron bike by some kind of hack rather than waiting until he had sent the necessary climbing miles. If he didn't have the Tron bike it would have been unfair!

[@TroggyPK]

Working at a store which uses raleigh as a main distributor, there have been alot of problems with their bikes however there are companies with much more dangerous bikes trying to cover their own backs 🤣 its actually funny how low these companies will stoop to just keep trying to make the money they where making back in 2020/2021

[@johnrichards7984]

Please name names - potential customers deserve to know!

[@SherazChoudhary]

Is using an extra long expander plug a good thing or a bad thing? I used an extra long (90mm) expander plug on my old 2001 Cannondale R4000si rim brake carbon fork (10mm spacer above and 25mm spacer below). Figured it was safer because it goes slightly below the upper bearing. Might provide some extra protection to stop before things completely detach. 🤷‍♂

[@leplessis8179]

Down 'ere in Redruth we as' bin usin' pasties fur spacers, works dead good but pastry do dry out 'ventually. 'Pends, suppose Oi, where do buy pasty from - some do say Philps in that there 'Ayle, but Oi finds e' bit greasy mesel'. Still, long as e' ain't a Ginster, maybe no 'assle. They do make Oi fart. Proper job!

[@stevenfreeman7798]

Seems to me after the first one or two failures the bike mechanics would have contacted raleigh ref torque settings anyway!. The fact that more failures then occurred suggests a defect of some description as we are talking multiple failures here. Why raleigh doesn't limit damage by just issuing a recall as specialised did with there various problems nothing against specialised they corrected there problems other manufacturers have done similar with no loss of reputation everybody is happy job done. This situation should never have got to this stage as both parties suffer as you say Mr H.

[@aitorbleda8267]

Well, I have heard plenty of bad stuff from lapierre. Seen bad designs from them on MTBs.. and rear triangles being worn out as they were too close to the tyre, cracks..

[@reeeeeem69420]

What are the chances that the team is actually purging their members?

[@Bear-Jew]

Wow! If PROs are getting this kind of quality kit, what is the average Joe getting for his money?

[@rosomak8244]

St. Piren could become in the future the team riding without idiocies like disc brakes and electronic shifters because they would become the team free to use what actually makes sense.

[@petetube99]

Jeez, how tight are these people going with the expander plugs? I find a slight snug is enough to load the headset without it slipping.

[@guycalabrese4040]

So, slammed stem is the way to go not only for the looks, but also for safety?

[@brankododig1585]

Essentially, yes. With everything done properly, the increased stresses from using spacers, within reason, shouldn't matter. However, slammed with zero spacers is the most rigid system with lowest mechanical loads.

[@guycalabrese4040]

@@brankododig1585 Nice! Vanity has it's advantages every now and then 😎

[@dragade101]

It would be nice to see tighter tolerances, especially where it matters. #Raleigh can and should engage with St. Piran. It will not be pretty if these two drag this out in court.

[@adamchambers5599]

There is no implied statutory rights for B2B transactions. The Sale of Goods Act ( repealed in 2015) doesnt apply, neither does the Consumer Rights Act 2015 that replaced it. This is either contractual or negligence. One spanner in the works is the fact these bikes are used for racing which is excluded from all warranties. Remember the claimant is responsible for proving the supplier failed in their duty of care to supply a bike fit for its intended use and that could be very expensive to do. One busted frame isnt enough.

[@Hambini]

I'd agree, on the face of it, I think St. Piran will have a hard time proving it even on the "balance of probabilities" test. On a technical level, they have apparently gotten an expert to look

[@DynamiteDB]

Can you please review a Merida bike. I’m dying to see your breakdown on a Scultura.

[@Zzyyxx22]

Surely they just need to see if other teams with the same bike have the same problem. If they do it’s the bike , if not it’s the mechanic.

[@mongoliansheepfarmer1097]

Must be a lot more going on for it to get to this stage

[@Olguini91]

1600£ for the frame and fork+headset, no reason to include wheels and groupset ect. in the calculation. Interesting video otherwise, thanks!

[@brianmaldonado3723]

Remember when bikes were steel and never failed? Unless one roof-racked their bike into a header or crashed 15+mph in something resulting in a BENT fork. Ty.

[@brankododig1585]

My last steel bike, downtube cracked at 12.500km. Indestructible indeed. CF bike is at 22.000 km at the moment

[@brianmaldonado3723]

@@brankododig1585 bullshit.

[@IRizqah]

Should i now remove the spacers under my stem

[@timothymburton]

What if you use a much longer expander plug? Wouldn't increase the load surface area enough to stop the riders from having tarmac sandwiches?

[@Cesar-cm4if]

People should sue their bike helmet company as well, most helmets only pass the cpsc standard wich was made decades ago, while they should be aiming to pass the dutch nta standard. The best helmets out there in my opinion are xnito and bern hudson