Problems with Power Levels | The Anatomy of Anime

[@TotallyNotMark]

Took ages drawing the thumbnail... For the love of God leave a like... jk, imma sleep.

[@SC-mm6vz]

Plague of gripes collab? Plz great vid as always mark

[@tastedivinefury2198]

Totally Not Mark your art has improved so much damn

[@Joltstor]

Every time I hear the kazoo version of the ultra instinct theme, I bust out in tears.

[@robinhyperlord9053]

Three things wrong; "Flame wars" are a stupid term. Powet Levels are power scaling. Saitama is weak and overrated.

[@davidflint9883]

I just stared at that thumbnail for awhile the instant I saw it and thought (out load) "damn! That's amazing! I REALLY want that thumbnail!" Is there a way you can share that or sell it as a 1080p desktop background? I also want it on my wall with your other poster. I don't often 'like' KZbin videos, but this is one of the few I want to leave a double like just for the thumbnail.

[@xlro8f853]

“What’s your power level?” “I don’t know; pretty big though” “Mine too!” “Neat!”

[@MinscFromBaldursGate92]

''And stop asking that! No one cares anymore!''

[@ethanwinters1469]

So powerleveling is dick measuring now?

[@viscountrainbows6452]

@@ethanwinters1469 heh... "now"😹

[@pIayingwithmahwii]

mine is way stronger then urs kidd

[@lostinlucidity]

"Yeah well I was like 20,000 as a sperm, so..."

[@davewrobleski4803]

Power levels themselves may not be Important, but power SCALING and consistency certainly are.

[@Percival917]

THIS.

[@KyubiCloaks]

Preeeach

[@SSJfraz]

Ultra Instinct Roshi disagrees.

[@clickmaster3692]

@@SSJfraz There is no ultra instinct roshi.

[@clickmaster3692]

@@uris3054 Stop it, get some help. It was similar to ulta instinct, it wasn't exactly it.

[@Envinyon]

I think power levels are the exact opposite of "show, don't tell" rather than illustrating strength by a fight or some other means, you're basically told the outcome of the fight before it happens. It's an easy shortcut to either have tension because a good guy is up against someone stronger. Or its there specifically to have Goku subvert the villain's expectations, or to have the villain show off some secret technique to get a power boost. I ultimately like the first Goku and Vegeta fight more, but I think not having a reference for how strong they are in the Buu saga is more or less intentional. We know both Vegeta and Goku have kept training, so its reasonable to assume the power gap between them is still roughly the same as it was before. The fight is to see which of them trained the hardest in the time since Cell was defeated. In the end, its later revealed Goku was holding back anyways, which cements his position as being above Vegeta after the fact. Maybe its sort of clumsy, but I think that's a simple way of showing someone's strength rather than telling. If we got hard readings on Goku's and Vegeta's abilities, then I think that whole sequence would've ultimately been pointless. I think its important that Vegeta has to believe that he can win. We don't need to have numbers dictating the outcome of fights and, more importantly, telling us how to feel before the fight even happens. Like you mentioned, during the Cell saga, scouters and power levels were thrown out the door, yet "how strong is everyone" isn't really a factor, since strength was shown by just how the fights went down and characters attitudes during the fight. And like you said, scouters and power levels were a narrative device thought up specifically to show the shortcomings of the villains in early DBZ. The whole idea of Raditz up to Freiza is that Goku and friends can push themselves way beyond their theoretical limits. So in a way, numerical power levels were introduced specifically to show that they're ultimately not important. What is important is just consistent writing and good context.

[@cypher838]

Power levels in dbz is like a really bad rpg. If a character has bigger numbers then they will instantly win.

[@phoebusapollo8365]

@@cypher838 not necessarily, finishing moves like the kamehameha or the Special Beam Canon increase your power level during the time you’re using the attack, allowing you to damage someone stronger than you. Techniques like the kaioken allowed Goku to go from 8000 to 24000 against Vegeta’s 18000. Transformations can range from 50x initial power level to hundreds to thousands the initial reading. The initial numbers are useful for scaling but they don’t always dictate the outcome, there are ways to increase it during the battle.

[@KeDe1606]

As Mark said, for me the best application for power levels was when they basically just symbolized the enemy‘s cockiness. Aside from that, they can *help* set up a seemingly hopeless/underdog situation (eg. Nappa vs the Z Warriors) or *help* maintain consistency (negative example… most fights post Cell). When some minor character gets defeated or defeats someone nowadays, we don’t really care because we don’t know how strong either side is when compared to the main characters or even when compared to one another. Prime example would be the Z Warriors (and Roshi) vs Frieza‘s invading force in Resurrection F. Like, great, the Z Warriors took them down. Does that make them surprisingly strong or does that make Frieza‘s force insanely weak? Same can be said about a lot of fights in the T.O.P. arc. Even the Goku Black arc suffers from that issue. The Buu saga too. Or the newest arcs in the manga. It also hinders the significance of transformations imo. A lot of them just feel… hollow at this point. Like, remember what a momentous occasion the original SSJ transformation was? Now, compare that to something like Blue [Evolution]. No build-up, no pay-off, no way to compare it to the regular God transformation (sidenote: remember when the concept of *God Ki* was like this insane revelation? Now it‘s „just another form the saiyans can take“). All we know is „welp, I guess they’re stronger now“. Last thing. Man, remember when we were worried about Goku or Vegeta blowing up the planet… *during the Cell saga* ?! At this point, any rogue ki-blast should be a thread to the entire solar system! Moral of the story: Dragon Ball has gone on for too long. Let Goku die for crying out loud.

[@Romalac]

4:22 "Remove that subtlety, and you get a scene like this!" (ad plays)

[@Zacman1123]

You too huh?

[@LuckiSir]

First time?

[@afrodude4782]

Lol this happened as I was reading your comment

[@E-Man5805]

As Plague of Gripes put it, the other issue with power levels and all, is what we're seeing hasn't changed. The feats on screen are exactly the same. Once you get Vegeta's Final Flash shown being like a 7th the wide and diameter of the earth, scaling everything becomes impossible. The way Perfect Cell is stronger than Vegeta, is no different to the way Kid Buu is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta. We don't see them do anything, other than beat the other guy up. You'd get no different visual information than if you brought in freaking Nappa. The first real shift to when you see a character do something visual to put them above the plain is Ultra Instinct. The first power Goku's had that directly changes how he fights and moves. And the thing I love is it isn't necessarily that he's "stronger" if he were, he wouldn't be dodging those hits. DB has always communicated "You're weaker than me now." By having character stand and just tank an attack and coming out unscathed. I guess Ultra Trunks vs Perfect Cell (these names are kinda absurd) was a similar thing, but it was more that Trunks was strong enough to really hurt Cell, but had rendered himself too slow to ever hit him.

[@shintokurayami]

Honestly when I first saw ultra instinct, I thought it was just a state of mind and not a transformation. From there I thought the fight between Goku and Jiren would shift to a somewhat similar fight between Cell and Trunks. Goku not being as strong as Jiren but through superior technique

[@MinscFromBaldursGate92]

So that's why Goku lost to Superman in Death Battle?

[@bojansarkanjac983]

@@MinscFromBaldursGate92 yes but also no, the whole thing is more complex than that but people try to simplify it, but it's not a simple matter

[@sacredsteeler]

Power levels died when Piccolo + Nail was able to give 2nd form Freeza a problem. Also when teenage Trunks was able to one shot Freeza + King Cold when he isn't even as strong as SSGoku

[@jacobharris5894]

Exactly

[@matthewcleary4685]

Yeah I don't reeeeally like powers levels, like I prefer interpreting someone's power than literally being told But it's a good way to make us scared of a villian

[@DJ5780]

Dragonball did it best

[@bbearthefiend7443]

I disagree. It’s a easy way to make ya scared of a villain. It’s has the same effect as a narrator saying that a character is stronger than another. We don’t really see anything. But if we get to see a character do something, then that’s a good way to make us scared of them. A good example of this is Tien, who manages to take out Roshi and brutalize Yamaha. We see him achieve things, and it makes us fear him and wonder if Goku can really handle him

[@matthewcleary4685]

@@bbearthefiend7443 yeah that's a very good point

[@ReeceHoward06]

@Gabriela Cano You can use both. The actions should back up the numbers.

[@DJ5780]

@Gabriela Cano It's been awhile since I've watched but there was more anticipation, tension, skill and even sense of danger in the fights and villains and the power differences weren't as stark or simple. The strength difference wasn't soley based on numbers. We were shown that they were dangerous not just told.

[@zacloud9672]

I hate anime where the concept of power levels is broken its always like: Mc: I am the legendary wizard 🧙‍♂️ my power level is *8000* yours is *699* you cannot kill me 😒 Enemy: n-nani?!?!?! did you really think i only have *699* ? this is a fake!! *takes off magic item that conceals magic power* i have *17890!* 😎 Mc: w-wait what!? So that is your true power!? okay I suppose I shall release my true power too!😤 *35634* Enemy: what?!?! 🙉Impossible!😨 Okay If this is what it's come to I suppose I shall give you my all!! *Transforms into a demon* 👺 Mc: n-n-nani?!?!?! Y-you are the demon lord?!😱😱 I did not want to use this because i might destroy the whole world if i use this, but it turns out I have no choice! 🌠 *reveals forbidden ancient magic* Enemy: I knew you knew how to use that but did you really think you were the only one hiding an ancient technique ? *reveals his* i trained all my life because I knew this day would come so I learned how to do this *ultimate ancient forbidden jutsu* ☄️ Mc: w-what!? Jutsu?!?!?! Impressive! But I am hiding something more powerful than that! *Reveals legendary sacred holy sword* 🌟⚔️ The useless anime girl that always needs help from the mc: NOOOOOOOOO!😮😮😮😮 Then the whole concept of power levels get lost and the whole show becomes a loop of revealing secret powers..

[@snaketheadversary6964]

Nigga that was more entertaining than the video 😂😂😂 no cap

[@randomzach2190]

For real tho, this shit gets tiring.

[@Horatio787]

Painfully accurate.

[@EMTeves]

Dragon Ball Z in a Nutshell

[@burp9609]

Just realized how cringe these dialogues are

[@UmbreonMessiah]

"Power Levels" are only 'required' because Shonen Anime writers are bad at expressing someone's strengths without hyper-literal explanations of them. This is mostly a restriction of the language, but it's also helpful shorthand to give viewers who may be new an idea as to why they should care about a threat. The problem isn't that they exist...it's that introducing them to Dragon Ball created this wild expectation amongst fans that they *meant* something, because Toriyama *never explicitly said they didn't.* He never came down with a scene showing that the numbers didn't matter, or that one's true potential cannot be properly gauged. He always had the scouters explode, or "people hiding their power", which gives less of the image that the numbers don't matter, and more the image that the numbers are so ridiculous that it's easier to explain via comedy than actual math.

[@MrLachapell]

The moment I saw characters reach 1 million in power level measures I finally understand they were bullshit

[@lucasmiller8286]

You are making sense, but I believe you're wrong. It's stated multiple times in DB that a character can hide his power level and that, as such, simply gauging them, be it by measuring their or using a scouter, is ineffective, making scouters and power levels virtually useless.

[@RebornVengeancex]

You just don't have enough imagination

[@bonbondurjdr6553]

@@lucasmiller8286 especially since power levels fluctuate during battle, with Goku gaining incredible speed for "nanoseconds" during his fight with the G. Force.

[@lucasmiller8286]

@@bonbondurjdr6553 Exactly, and I think that was the point Mark was trying to make during this video

[@alansmithee2012]

It always confused me when Roshi started fighting in Resurrection F, especially once they stopped being part of the main fighting team. I thought that humans were pretty much outclassed by aliens by the android saga, but then suddenly here comes Master Roshi kicking ass and all I could think was "where the fuck were you during Namek"?

[@ZeroDividedByZero]

Power scaling to make the older characters somewhat relevant again and able to match up with modern characters, instead of retiring them for good, like what the Buu Saga essentially did. Lazy af

[@marcierex4547]

Very easy they got stronger cause roshi does trains

[@geothepoly]

In the DBS arc, it's explained that the new Frieza force is weak and pathetic compared to the Namek Saga one, but I still think there's some weird power scaling BS going on

[@drnebulae7578]

If Power Levels were consistent enough to keep up with the stories growth of power, then I would say that it would have been interesting to see the gauge of Goku's level skyrocketing after training in the Time Chamber. Or when a character is a measly PL of 5 but once serious, skyrockets past the millions within a second. The only way power was to ever be understood was through the feats and transformations the character's got, E.g. Goku, at the end of the Buu Saga, his Base Form alone was considerably stronger than the Whole of the Frieza and Android Arc. Or when Copy Vegeta who was stated to be Vegeta in power took a kick from SS3 Gotenks like it was nothing. If they displayed the power levels in a way that made them interesting to the viewer, then I would see them being a unique power gauge for the series. E.g. Goku is exhausted from battle and can't transform at all, the enemy still at full strength out levels him by millions. At the last second, he gets a senzu bean and eats it. the Gauge updates to a power level that surpasses the enemy unfathomably then a bonus add on from his natural Zenkai Boosts. It would show a better progression of how PL's could be represented.

[@sawkchalk6966]

I think what's more interesting than power levels is power scaling. Having a number to quantify a characters power is pretty dumb but comparing feats is a pretty useful metric for where people stand. My Hero Academia does this really well because it has a really solid power ceiling in the form of All-Might. Deku using literal percentages of All-Might's power makes it easy to figure out how strong villains and allies alike are

[@drnebulae7578]

@@sawkchalk6966 Yeah I agree with what you're saying, the percentage per boost makes the power levelling easier to understand especially for powerscaling purposes.

[@user-gk6nt5gi5n]

if power levels didn't spike so much and whos gonna win isn't determine by who had the higher number then maybe then I would care about them

[@hawshimagical]

life is hard being a gotenks fan

[@CerealExperimentsMizuki]

They surpassed the Millions of Power Level after the Freeza Saga, although there's no actual power levels after the Freeza Saga that doesn't mean that their power levels will becomes stagnant, nowadays their power levels would be in the Quadquaginagintillions or some absurdly high as ridiculous number that it probably wouldn't even matter anymore.

[@shenanigans8353]

I mean even back in z there was the issue of characters having to emphasize when a character had become stronger and faster than had been seen ever before because there is no visual way of getting it across. I honestly side with plague of gripes' view "the feats are the same" in the sense the series' power scaling has been a detriment to the power levels. This problem being brought to its pinnacle during the tournament of power when so much time is spent on the spectators worshiping the ground jiren stands on to really get across to the audience how much of a threat he was to goku and the universe 7 team such as the infamous " jirens so strong he transcends time" line.

[@kataphrut7740]

Shenanigans8 I’d argue the first fight with Jiren was actually a pretty good way of establishing the context Mark was talking about. It starts off with Goku going up through all his forms with each one progressively budging Jiren a little more until we get Blue which can make him move, and Kaioken which can stun him briefly. That’s a pretty effective way of establishing that nobody has any chance against him.

[@Manganization]

@@kataphrut7740 the anime might've been more hype, but the manga did it better, really.

[@kataphrut7740]

CursedUsername There was a Tournament of Power manga arc?

[@stefanradebach2889]

And yet he does nothing making the dialogue utterly pointless and stupid. All because Toriyama is too lazy to write anything more than a few notes which has caused many problems in Super.

[@demyx0067]

Agreed. I think the last time I really found something interesting in Super was when Goku was fighting Hit. They should've done more with the fight, but Hit was leveling up his Time Skip by the course of the battle, and it still ended with Goku being so fast he literally bypassed Hit freezing time. This also means that after this point the characters were strong enough to break the universe, and faster than time itself... way too absurd, but still cool as hell. And then they ruined it by making it seem like everyone were basically at the same level

[@fizzybitzobacon5747]

The interpretation of power levels are extremely important and cannot be disputed. The execution of such is where all the critiques come from.

[@poppedcherry4030]

OHHH MAN that little Sparta Remix of Vegeta just hit me with nostalgia.

[@Jayjay_07]

Just scrolling through the comments to read this

[@novakastmusic]

This guy literally teaches us, how to make a story...

[@theizzoshow5180]

novakast. Well he does his research. You could teach it too if you informed yourself the way he does, anyone could!

[@ProdbyHway]

I know I’m a video game developer and I like watching this for a story

[@shiranuiaensland1442]

There are multiple ways to make a story. He is sharing what he knows, which is different from the way many great storytellers did it. If "show, don't tell" is the absolute rule for quality writing, 12 Angry Men and The Breakfast Club would not be praised. Hell, even Doc Brown would be considered a terrible character especially in the first two BTTF movies.

[@descendantofartorias2067]

@@shiranuiaensland1442 that's because the only universal rule to writing is that rules exist to be broken. Rules like show don't tell, the heroes journey, and the three act structure are great for some stories but don't apply to every story.

[@shiranuiaensland1442]

@@descendantofartorias2067 Thus, there really are no rules despite what these "teachers" claim. Quality is all about the execution. Heroes must always be vulnerable in battle? Screw that, says Bruce Lee. Villains who only want money are nothing special? Hans Gruber says hello. If anything, following rules often leads to unoriginality.

[@mcita9292]

“You can’t depend on mere calculation to understand Sayan” SSJ Vegeta victory quote from FighterZ They’re important, but not essential, at least for me

[@3slicessenpai]

Mark's videos have been helping me alot on how to write, either through his own words or by an author he introduces, like K.M Weiland. Although it's via novel writing, not having the visual aid manga and anime have to help me, lessons like proper character arcs and "Show, don't tell", have been things that I've been trying to implement as cornerstones of my writing. So thank you, Mark and I hope I can learn more from your videos.

[@4as]

"Mark's videos have been helping me alot on how to write" "alot" You sure about that?

[@3slicessenpai]

@@4as Geez, why do you have to narc me out like that XD

[@MinscFromBaldursGate92]

What about western comics?

[@jp3813]

Here's a great example of "Tell, don't show" from Jaws: "Japanese submarine slammed two torpedoes into our side, Chief. We was comin' back from the island of Tinian to Leyte, just delivered the bomb. The Hiroshima bomb. Eleven hundred men went into the water. Vessel went down in twelve minutes. Didn't see the first shark for about a half an hour. Tiger. Thirteen-footer. You know how you know that when you're in the water, Chief? You tell by lookin' from the dorsal to the tail. What we didn't know... was our bomb mission had been so secret, no distress signal had been sent. Heh. They didn't even list us overdue for a week. Very first light, Chief, sharks come cruisin'. So we formed ourselves into tight groups. Y'know, it's... kinda like ol' squares in a battle like, uh, you see in a calendar, like the Battle of Waterloo, and the idea was, shark comes to the nearest man and that man, he'd start poundin' and hollerin' and screamin', and sometimes the shark'd go away... sometimes he wouldn't go away. Sometimes that shark, he looks right into ya. Right into your eyes. Y'know the thing about a shark, he's got... lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be livin'... until he bites ya. And those black eyes roll over white, and then... oh, then you hear that terrible high-pitch screamin', the ocean turns red, and spite of all the poundin' and the hollerin', they all come in and they... rip you to pieces. Y'know, by the end of that first dawn... lost a hundred men. I dunno how many sharks. Maybe a thousand. I dunno how many men, they averaged six an hour. On Thursday mornin', Chief, I bumped into a friend of mine, Herbie Robinson from Cleveland- baseball player, boatswain's mate. I thought he was asleep, reached over to wake him up... bobbed up and down in the water just like a kinda top. Upended. Well... he'd been bitten in half below the waist. Noon the fifth day, Mr. Hooper, a Lockheed Ventura saw us, he swung in low and he saw us. Young pilot, a lot younger than Mr. Hooper. Anyway, he saw us and come in low and three hours later, a big fat PBY comes down and start to pick us up. Y'know, that was the time I was most frightened, waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a life jacket again. So, eleven hundred men went into the water, three hundred sixteen men come out, and the sharks took the rest, June the 29th, 1945. Anyway... we delivered the bomb."

[@dmas7749]

i knew about stuff like show don't tell, but the goku vid made me more comfortable with having characters with static arcs instead of dynamic ones

[@EclecticCharisma]

I truly love that you incorporate writing terminology and techniques into your videos. As a rider myself, and a growing one at that, I find it to be very educational

[@bringbackthegooddaysofyoutube]

I love how every time he mentions the Buu Saga, it's always that same picture.

[@RougeMephilesClone]

"Remove that subtlety and you get a scene like thi-" *Ad plays*

[@aquelgamermexicano]

In short terms: Power levels as a NUMERICAL SYSTEM is pointless, but Power levels in as a SCALE system is. Which i think was pretty much a joke after Freezer. After the Namek Saga, almost every character can blow up the earth if they even think about it, the whole point of Freezer was that he could blow them up with one finger, but by the android arc and so on, they still fight like nothing changed. This is why the BoG arc in Super is actually underrated for me, cause that's where they establish that Goku and Beerus are so strong that their own pressence can destroy the whole universe

[@nicholasfitzgerald585]

And then the following arcs it goes back to normal

[@TheHylden]

By the Cell arc, he declares against Gohan that his kamehameha can blow up the entire solar system. In the Buu arc(s), Super Buu can rip apart the dimensions with his power and his voice, so can Gotenks at Super Saiyan 3, so there are those nuggets telling us just how much stronger they've gotten.

[@NASTAR01]

@@nicholasfitzgerald585 The ToP take place in the Null Realm because the Grand Minister knew it was the only logical place to have such an amass of power unleashed at once; even building the stage out of the strongest material in the multiverse. Of course, there's also Jiren and Goku shaking the 'entire' realm.

[@lancevance6346]

Power levels weren't all that relevant. But power scaling definitely was. It made the difference between your character blowing a hole through someone's chest vs getting your punches completely stonewalled . Like Vegeta vs 2nd for Cell and Perfect Cell. Clear distinction in strength that we can tangibly see. Not like the free for all we have now where anybody can keep up with anybody. We've always wondered transformations are getting out of hand but Super actually officially made them irrelevant when people who'd die to a flick from Raditz in saiyan saga can now survive in ToP .

[@moonsmonsters]

@@nicholasfitzgerald585 yep lol

[@andrewemerson1613]

I think that everyone agrees that understanding a character's abilities and comparative standing to their peers is undoubtedly important. I however think the problem people have with power levels is not what what they represent, but rather that they represent it poorly. as Mark pointed out, in the earlier sagas, the same conclusions can be drawn from the circumstances and context of each scene, with the actual power level just serving as shorthand. and while the scouters and the shortcoming of the user they imply are interesting, the numerical system they introduced really made things much more cumbersome down the road... a neat thing added with fairly litter regard for their later implications... a common thing in Dragon Ball

[@ararebeast]

Mark, please, I can't sleep at night, my family is starving. I need to know: What is the unit of measurement in a power level? Over 900 what? What is one unit of power level called? What creature, if any, represents a power level of 1? Please, my family won't talk to me anymore.

[@MrAssChapman]

Watts

[@pezyg]

"Yes"

[@tasanokiranoko881]

Raditz. They're units of Raditz.

[@joeylumer1037]

ARareBeast I’m pretty sure Turtle has a power level of 1 or 0.

[@elcalabozodelandroide2]

Lil cal

[@theace8502]

Power lvls? I don't know, probably not. But power scaling? Yes, that is very important

[@tastedivinefury2198]

The Ace ye

[@alexanderst.7993]

Looks at Super...

[@lancevance6346]

@@alexanderst.7993 Lol, people who'd have died to a flick of the finger by Raditz and did jackshit to help in Cell,Buu saga because of that ,now competing in ToP against gods.Like....OK. xD

[@byronstone386]

@@lancevance6346 Everytime I saw master roshi fighting in DBS ,it never sat right with my spirit. Like...they made a whole comedic point about yamcha being useless to them but tbh yamcha should be several times stronger than roshi.

[@3rdwavemedia906]

Byron Berlitz facts!!! It’s like akira wanted to turn Yamcha into a gag character more than a serious fighter. Then why carry on his character from dragonball anyways.

[@dragoseala9760]

I am not kidding when i am saying that this is the best db thumbnail i've ever seen! Do you think u can give us a link to download it?

[@evanlight671]

Looks like ultra instinct with flakes of white fire coming off of him

[@LjuboCupic1912]

Dragoseala the craziest thing is, he drew the thumbnail himself, this man has a crazy amount of dedication

[@SnipingIsAGoodJobMate]

Jiren: My power level is the biggest, you will not defeat me simpleton. Goku: You fool, you may not realice it, but my power level is even bigger than yours now! Jiren: Impossible, it seems i have lost.

[@felipe_drawmania1604]

@3rd Way I think Sonic got there first.

[@コラヴス]

@3rd Way power of trust*

[@clickmaster3692]

@@コラヴス I think its teamwork

[@returnofhorusthegalacticor9704]

@3rd Way krillin dies* goku achieves the legendary transformation of his race*

[@3rdwavemedia906]

Retùrn of Horus the galactic order well in his defense it was more out of pure rage for said friend and being tired of friezas shit. More than the power of friendship itself.

[@sheru7793]

Totally not Mark: Power Levels are important. Dragon Ball Comunity: No, no he's got point...

[@saawal7864]

power levels are important broly with plot armor: yes but actually no

[@mrturtletail3945]

That's Mark for you. Guy is really good at dissecting a form of media and looking at it from all angles.

[@ZeothTheHedgehog]

@@saawal7864 is really that hard to believe broly going form weaker than ssj vegeta to stronger to ssjg vegeta? At birth broly when stressed was 3 times nappa and that's him being stressed now imagine him being angry. Broly being stronger than ssjg vegeta after getting angry makes sense to me just as much as gohan being way weaker than everyone when raditz show up but then getting angry and damaging him.

[@saawal7864]

@@ZeothTheHedgehog well getting angry and jumping your power level directly from a regular supersaiyan to super saiyan god does not make any sense. gohan had his poer level grow 100 times his normal powerlevel when he got angry against raditz. but broly powerlevel grow way more than that maybe 100000times(since i do not know the powerlevel of ss god).

[@christiancinnabars1402]

Theincredible Growing your power level by millions of times in a short period isn't unheard of in the DBverse. The Androids presumably went from a pl of 5 to well over 150,000,000 over the course of maybe a few days due to Gero. Cell also grew rapidly in pl when he was a larvae, although at a pace of a few years instead of days. Basically, power levels in Dragon Ball aren't as static as people expect them to be. Raising one's power level has always been limited by the tools the character has, not the time to actually do it(for example, compare Goku training with God for three years with Goku getting over 10x stronger by training in 100x gravity). Even then, Broly only grew to ~SSJ level of strength(with Vegeta having the upper hand) in their fight, with his Fury form carrying him the rest of the way to eventually become ~Blue level.

[@andrewcorll1967]

I want to say...I LOVE your videos. It is insanely refreshing to hear views from someone who truly and actually seems to understand the purpose of plot and consistency. Almost anytime I try to have a conversation with someone about consistency in a show (or the internal logic), the literal first thing out of their mouth is almost always something very similar to, "it's fiction; it doesn't matter; none of it has to make sense..." To which...I am just baffled. Either they are simply trying to be argumentative...or they have no idea what they are talking about. Anyway. Thank you. I love your channel, I subscribe, you are great!!

[@saiyancurseultimate9402]

The importance of the curse...the saiyan curse...

[@chefinabottle]

Lol

[@RebornVengeancex]

Not the curse.....lol

[@doubledio3061]

Man I feel bad for that chick . Horrible vid , absolute garbo, but did she deserve to get canceled over it ?

[@RebornVengeancex]

@@doubledio3061 yeah

[@thaisennj9781]

Joseph Huynh hell yeah she was spitting NONSENSE LMFAO

[@Faizaud]

This is an aspect of Bleach that I appreciated, especially in the early arcs. It was more about how your techniques/fight style and other factors matched up with your opponent as opposed to...my ki makes a screen say a higher number than you so I win.

[@laserbeamlightning]

I think one thing you forgot to mention is that Yamcha in many ways was the early scouter. In his first encounter with Goku, he beats him and then proceeds to be beaten in all future encounters to establish how much of a threat the current villain they are facing is. This ends up with the unfortunate side effect of the viewers believing Yamcha to be horribly pathetic but does the job of establishing the next villain.

[@slurpgang9300]

Can you do a story breakdown of OG dragon ball like you did for GT

[@shizamza]

One Punch Man is really good at being consistent with peoples power. Just another reason to love that manga

[@loveonepieceforever8203]

I have MANY reasons I hate OPM manga

[@fireblaze1580]

Mitchell Kies Would you care to elaborate on why you hate it? I’m genuinely curious!

[@robinhyperlord9053]

Saitama is weak.

[@fireblaze1580]

Robin Hyperlord Well the “bin” in Robin is the WEAK syllable. The stress should go on the “Ro” when you pronounce it.

[@robinhyperlord9053]

@@fireblaze1580 Tad agreed.

[@absurdconception1155]

Man I flipping love your channel bro I don't even remember the first video I watched but all I remember is being enticed by how tight your writing was and how you can make any subject you're talking about intriguing I think Beyond your pen it's also your passion which shines through and makes every video so much more entertaining thank you

[@Murtaugh395]

When I first experienced Dragon Ball Z and they introduced power levels, the most important thing that i felt they introduced was to show how badly Freeza's army was equipped. That with all their Galactic technology, they didn't have computers capable of counting to 25,000 without exploding.

[@grayatreides7327]

You made a fantastic point here in that scouters told you about the enemy and their perspective, and the importance of having them blow up in their faces. Power level readings definitely had their uses.

[@viscountrainbows6452]

Somewhere PlagueOfGripes is having a conniption fit. "HIS NUMBER IS JUST SOOOO BIG. AAAAAAAAA"

[@d13da14b]

I like how they do power levels in One Piece, bounties. If you have a low bounty, you aren't necessarily weak, just unknown. But for those with insane bounties, like yonkos, it tells us the fans what to expect with how strong they are.

[@PikaPenny17]

And as show by God Ussop, it's perfectly possible for someone to be relatively weak while having a high bounty.

[@MrQuarantine]

One could easily argue that not having the subtext right there in front of you makes a fight far more interesting. Goku's been training for 7 years how strong is he? The same goes for vegeta after getting one of the of the most iconic power ups in the series. There's so many ways the actual fight can play out and we the audience get to watch with anticipation that isn't the same with a ton of subtext. To me, asking the question of who is going to win between the two titans during the battle they then get framed as being relative to each other has me sitting on the edge of my seat to see who inches forward more to get the edge. Sometimes less is more, and I don't need to know goku is the underdog fighting the the latest villian of the week to get excited. This is why I'm saying I prefer the 2nd vegeta goku fight. Never mind the fact the 2nd fight had objectively more character development and emotion behind it.

[@lugialover09]

This is why I adore stuff like Stands or Quirks or Jutsus as well as just basic strategy or cleverness. It's not about pure strength or energy. Sure, stamina and actual physical strength matter, but unique abilities let characters think "Hmm, well, I have this talent. My opponent has that talent. By what creative method can I use my talent to outdo theirs?"

[@kekshrekmcgee5104]

Wowie! I’ve never been here so quickly, I really like your content, dude! Also that drawing in the thumbnail looks spectacular!

[@Hammerheadcomedy]

He draws a lot of his own thumbnails, dudes actually pretty hype, everything he puts out is solid, entertaining, and teaches you something you didnt know

[@kekshrekmcgee5104]

Bear Farmer Oh I know, I just wanted him to hear my compliment

[@jcorpac]

A couple of interesting subversions of the power levels come to mind. During the brief Trunks vs Perfect Cell fight, it's pretty clear that Trunks is signifigantly stronger than Vegeta, and possibly stronger than Cell at that point, but in doing that, Trunks was bulked up and became too slow to land a hit. His power level may have been high, but speed was an issue that he couldn't overcome. Stamina also becomes a factor over power in a lot of fights, most notably the Androids' unlimited stamina, so long as they can handle the damage, and both of the Freeza vs Goku fights (Namek and Resurrection F) where Freeza is visibly tired while Goku can easily keep going. It's also interesting to see how the non-Saiyan characters seem to rely more on technique than power. The Kienzan, Taiyoken, and even Yamcha's Sokidan are all ways to fight when you can't keep up with raw strength. Even Piccolo's Makkankosappo works as a piercing attack rather than a wave of energy and shows to be effective against Raditz, who at the time was stronger than him.

[@dylancross1039]

The "increased muscle reduces speed" is an anime trope that needs to fucking die. Increased muscle means you can put more power into your movements, making you able to move FASTER. Not slower.

[@saiyaddanapudi9216]

@@dylancross1039 not if you're flying

[@JSHADOWM]

@@dylancross1039 Increased muscle mass would make you quicker, but the problem is that when trunks goes Maximum Oversaiyan, muscle definition is PEAK. he is fighting dehydrated.

[@phoebusapollo8365]

@@saiyaddanapudi9216 especially if you’re flying, you use energy to fly, you gained energy and bulked up, ergo, you can use more energy and fly faster, not slower, I can see him losing agility and combat speed, but his travel speed should be off the charts, since he uses energy at this point and the power gain should negate and take priority over a gain of like 200 pounds of muscle.

[@Phantom9252]

Here's my problem with Power Levels, they dominate the fandom conversation. Every hypothetical situation became about Power Levels, you couldn't like Krillin and want more Krillin in the plot because "hIs PoWeR lEvEl Is ToO wEaK." Questions and discussions of character-driven plots became dominated by Numerical values. Whole characters were written off because of numbers. Getting away from Power Levels made the show more interesting, focusing instead on the variety of characters and how they fought as opposed to "ThIs ChArAcTeR hAs BIG NUMBAHS tHeReFoUr dEy WiN!"

[@DBMusicEX]

That's one thing I hate about power levels, is that it often leads to people ONLY caring about a character because they're "strong". Shallow reasons to prefer certain characters over others is such bs imo.

[@SpaceEmperorGenos]

I thought you were going in a direction of 'people shouldn't have casual discussion of vs scenarios using power levels', i was about to be upset lol I find it fun putting power levels together with my friend while we're grinding dbz games on roblox together, it's a good time waster to describe to each other how hilariously LSSJ Broly would spank Perfect Cell

[@Beatyofeet32]

I don't think that's a problem with power levels, though. It's more so a problem with the writing allowing a small subset of characters rise several tiers above other alleged main or strong support characters. It would be fine if the bulk of the content wasn't based around fighting, but when it is, you need to take better care not to leave those characters behind. But DB did just that simply because Goku and Vegeta are so popular. They ruined their own product because of numbers not associated with power, but with money.

[@marcierex4547]

Nah I just love big numbers and buff men fighting so power lvls and buff men fighting are peak

[@marcierex4547]

​@@DBMusicEXnah roshi is big buff man so he is peak

[@tulip8586]

Honestly dude, I watch your videos religiously, I can see the amount of hard work and effort you put in, and as someone who simply enjoys your videos I don't think I can ever truly understand how much work you put in but I can definitely say that your work is amazing. YOU ARE DOPE and imma keep watching, no matter what you put out. YOU ARE AWESOME BRO!!!!!!

[@KaibaKid_]

TNM 2020: I don’t really like the Goku V Vegeta rematch in the Buu Saga TNM when rewriting the Buu Saga: This fight is a masterpiece and needs to happen

[@AndreTwistWorld]

I'm wondering if Mark is gonna acknowledge this obvious gapping hole in the consistency of his rhetoric

[@Jdudec367]

@The Great Carrotman not a bad fight...but I really prefer the first fight especially since the first one was arguably one of the most important in the series

[@Zacman1123]

@@Jdudec367 I'm the opposite. I find the first fight boring.

[@Jdudec367]

@@Zacman1123 really?huh

[@Jayjay_07]

@@Zacman1123 How? Why? To me it is the best fight in all of the series

[@Cantrona]

I like the ki sensing approach to powerlevels, and the fact that they add the masking or suppressing or holding back facet to them, plus it seems like an organic ability that warriors of certain calibres should have.

[@TokuNorth]

1:37 - "Creating a very easy to understand dynamic" Me, an intellectual: Heh..dynamek

[@jimb0ismyname0]

My problem with power levels in DBZ was the exponential escalation, they started off well stating an average Joe was around 10 and our heroes being in the high hundreds but everything after ">9000" just got silly and when 2nd for Freezy boi announced his power was over 1million they broke it. Had they paced themselves and not given in to "more is more" power levels would have lasted a lot longer as a nice fun form of measurement

[@bernardosales1044]

Every bleep when you said GT was a smile out of me

[@koatsmagoats7145]

The way you censored GT caught me off guard I love it.

[@jeremykeitt784]

I always felt like the scouters exploding was more of an illustration of how high someones power level was rather than the power level not being important. The only time where power levels seemed to be irrelevant was when the Earthlings, Vegeta, and even Frieza started to hide their true power. This allowed the enemy to be caught off guard via deception more than it being the actual ineptitude of a scouter. Yes scouters seemed to be a waste of time in these instances because the characters chose to hide their power, however the scouters never seemed to be wrong once that power was unleashed. On this token I'd also point out that in DragonBall Z there has never been an instance where someone with an immeasurable or ridiculously high power level had ever been beaten by someone without one. To say that scouters and power levels didn't matter would mean that someone with a less impressive power level reading at their full capacity could triumph over someone with a greater power level reading at their full capacity, and this almost never happens. Whether it happens later in the fight or the beginning, for one character to win over another, their power level will always exceed the others. If the characters started to beat each other based off of pure technique or skill then that would be a different story, however due to DBZ's major flaw which is escalation, it always takes an even more overwhelming power or at the very least team work to beat a more powerful adversary. To wrap up my point, power levels were never shown to be inaccurate, I just think that between the Z Fighters eventually becoming these overpowered one man armies and in duality, having the ability to mask that immeasurable power, made the idea of a scouter and a calculated power level to be both irrelevant on one end and impossible on the other.

[@deoxxys]

All creators need to see this. Subtext is so very important to a good anime/manga

[@bongo5343]

That intro made me feel like i was 10 years old again and brought back so many memories

[@PS1Fan1991]

This video was so informative. It has gotten me thinking about the story that my colleague and I are working on; as I hope that we made it consistent enough.

[@atomicboyheroi]

It blows my mind how some people think every transformation has the same power. Like "a SSJ3 is always stronger than a SSJ2" when in fact if the base form of the individual is big enough this is not the case at all! SSJ2 Vegeta this point in the series is WAY stronger than SSJ3 Goten, Trunks or even Gotenks could ever be.

[@danielijust8776]

I never heard a dbz Fan say that

[@youssefalami9736]

@@danielijust8776 trust me they're a lot

[@user-fy1nq3nf1q]

Tho ssj3 gotenks is probably higher than ssj2 vegeta anyway cus theyre super prodogies or whatever

[@sonicjr53]

True. Though announcing number values throws a big wrench into that determination. Especially with fusion involved. Battle of Gods Vegeta landing a hit on Beerus was especially ......weird after SSJ3 Goku couldn't.

[@ivanbackfromthecardshop8093]

I mean that's mainly just because God ki got added to his base. Not like it really matters though train for like a week and you'll catch up if the author wants you too

[@ShyBoy6ty9]

For me, it's not just that characters are stronger, or even the numbers themselves. It's how fast those numbers got ridiculous. You go from 300-something with Raditz to something like 20,000 a year later? Then 200,000 to over 1 million in the span of what I'm assuming was a couple days at most? The next bad guy can still be a threat without making a straight up mockery of the last guy.

[@LaurentIpsum]

Why is GT being bleeped? Edit: really enjoyed this, just curious about this one point

[@fireblaze1580]

Ciel King-Williams Probably because it is hilarious!

[@slejszer5100]

To understand the joke more watch his db GT review

[@mohammadmehmood3092]

Cuz he died 4 times reviewing the series.

[@superexclusive452]

Cause the show sucked

[@Yodasbrother3]

@@mohammadmehmood3092 lmaoooo

[@Triforce_of_Doom]

One thing I love about One Piece is that its "power levels" are basically how well each character can utilize & train their unique powerset (Like Doflamingo learning how to essentially fly by attaching his strings to clouds) or if they'd just logically cancel out the opponent's like Luffy's rubber body nullifying Eneru's electricity. That way each fight is very much trying to outmaneuver the opponent.

[@TacoManX9]

I was NOT expecting that Sparta Remix

[@marsella527]

"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his power level?" "It's... it's... 1006..."

[@prismssj8532]

It's over 9000

[@marsella527]

@@prismssj8532 go watch the DBZA joke, then we can talk

[@jeffsomk9069]

"Wait really?" "Yea" *gets absolutely obliterated* "I had the scouter upside down..."

[@prismssj8532]

@@marsella527 Just gonna say one thing I had a comment b4 that

[@sketchydude8431]

"WHA- wait, really?"

[@SSJFutureGohan62093]

My only issues with power levels revolves around the subtext that you talked about. I don’t need direct numbers, but when you have Roshi hopping into the Tournament of Power and expecting me to believe he can go with any of these characters shifts me out of the narrative. That’s where the subtext is important.

[@ItzVinCinity]

I have a challenge for you Mark: You recreated the buu saga already, I wonder if it'd be fun for you to try rewriting the T.O.P arc in Super and make Jiren actually interesting from the very beginning. ps. love your stuff youre an inspiration to artists everywhere

[@nahway7295]

God mark you’ve outdone yourself now. Absolutely loved the video, lowkey been waiting for this video for a long time

[@riptide5544]

I think this video describes why I had so many problems with the battle against Jiren at the end of Super. We only see bits and pieces of Jiren actually doing anything, and any time we did he just kinda punched someone or just threw a big energy blast. Jiren never really displayed any skill, just raw output, and yet was the biggest enemy in the ToP. I think it would have been interesting to show how flawed Jiren's worldview was by having someone who is insanely more skilled, like Goku, using his raw skill and prowess in battle to overcome Jiren than just simply having a bigger number. It's why I had so many problems with Super's relying on walking stacks of numbers for characters rather than any kind of subtext.

[@anthonylong9067]

In other words, Jiren is OP for no reason

[@phoebusapollo8365]

@@anthonylong9067 yep, dude just trained and went from skinny stick insect alien boi to ragdolling ssj blue like nothing. Why is he so powerful? *how* is he so powerful? Did he train with divines for decades and that’s how he became so powerful? Was he some prophesied person said to be super powerful? No clue, he just came in, was the most powerful mortal to date, and for his backstory, he lost people and decided to train.

[@duwang2324]

Power levels could be fun and interesting if they are shown to not always decide the outcome of a fight, say if a character with a lower power level uses a specific ability/strategy that levels the playing field, showing that basic speed and power aren’t the defining outcomes of a fight. Think of if piccolo used his regenerative abilities along with his elasticity to put up a good fight against someone far stronger, showing you don’t need to solely train your speed/strength to become stronger. Or what if instead of training only speed and power, a character trains a special ability that doesn’t increase their power level directly, showing that there are other ways to get stronger. Personally I think that would open up some doors in the series... but that’s just me

[@SuperSirianRigel]

Yeah this is why power levels were important when they were in the show. Because it helped give a guideline to the "subtext" you were talking about. It helped with the power "scaling" and consistency of the show that other people in the comment section have been talking about. You nailed it on the head when you said (paraphrased) that after the power level numbers went away the consistency and the viewers ability to understand how strong characters were began to take a serious hit. Eventually falling by the wayside completely in some instances. For these reasons I have always cared about power levels.

[@denickart]

The only problem I have with power levels is they made most of Goku's training up to Namek feel insignificant. First everything he went through in OG Dragon Ball only got him to around 400, even after training with Kami for 3 years, while his human peers were able to reach several times that by training with Kami for less than a year. By the time he reaches Namek his training has put him at 90000 ,which seems impressive at first but he loses soon after. And simply losing that fight makes him 30 times stronger.

[@Shadoww2309]

Really interesting video! I think power levels are to shonen what magic systems are to fantasy literary books. If you have a show with a strict power level system (such as I think DBZ was supposed to be), then the power levels need to be consistent and handled rigorously or every fight doesn't make sense anymore. However, if you have a show with loose power systems, where the power is not measured in numbers, then trying to power scale people becomes much more arbitrary and, while fun to do, is not needed to make sense of encounters.

[@mattygee6852]

I cannot stress enough for you to watch hyourinjutsu's animations they are a) amazingly animated and b) make complete sense as to why each conflict is happening or if it doesn't its the little thing that will nag the back of your head. Like freiza and vegeta super sayian. But it still works. Please mark i BEG you to watch some of them. At least the gt and super manga fight

[@Supershackda]

Great video and I 100% agree with your overall point. Though I do think you missed out one thing when talking about what numerical power levels can bring to the table. Subtext is most certainly the best way to show the audience perspective on things, but sometimes having it outight said can be effective(emphasis on the sometimes, 9 times out of 10 show don't tell is definitely the way to go). The best example I can give of this is 2nd form Freeza. His announcement of having a power level of 1million was probably more effective than anything they could have shown, because up until then we'd seen complete domination in fights with much smaller power gaps, for example when the ginyus arrive, the difference in power level is in the 10s of thousands, but they utterly dominate Vegeta, Gohan and Krillin. If Freeza had simply been shown as being able to easily overpower Vegeta then we wouldn't actually have had any context of just how much stronger he really was, because previously we'd seen a much smaller gap be enough to easily win. Him stating his power level and then proving it made Freeza feel like so much more of a threat. On the other side there's the fight between final form Freeza and Vegeta, where no numbers are mentioned at all. Vegeta's absolute certainty that a zenkai will give him the power to win, coupled with the huge boosts we'd seen zenkais give in the previous episodes, followed by Freeza's complete domination of Vegeta, all work in tandem to show just how strong Freeza really is, and work towards the bigging up Goku when he finally arrives and shows himself to be on another level compared to Vegeta, only to then discover how much weaker he still is compared to Freeza before going SSJ. I think the entire Freeza Saga is a great way of depicting just how power level can be used effectively, and how to move past them, power scaling inevitably makes them obsolete, but to dismiss them entirely is, in my opinion, ignorant of the depth they can add wen done right.

[@hyperrunner8531]

The part where base kid GT Goku was able to hold Omega Shenron's negative energy ball, you mistook that for being lazy writing probably because its a popular trend to immediately look down on GT, but if you pay more attention to this scene you realize it is far more intelligent than you could've ever expected and that its completely intentional and planned as Goku was speaking to Shenron asking him for one last wish to give him the power to beat Omega shenron promising never to use the dragonballs again, which is why Goku somehow survived the blast and became completely impervious to all Omega's attacks despite only being in his base form, shenron later emerged from the dragon balls to remind Goku of the promise he made and Goku suddenly is able to travel to anywhere in the universe even places like hell which he previously could not access without a portal opened from inside and outside it, this is because Goku merged with Shenron and took on a new responsibility to actually become the dragon of the balls, which is why 100 years later he is summoned from the balls by his great great grandson, at the end of GT Goku reached a level far greater than any level he has ever been depicted since, unlike in super, Goku at the end of GT is a real god by the true sense of the word, he became immortal and transcends physical location, ultimately GT was the truest ending to all of dragonball as it ended with the young boy who's life was defined by the dragonballs to in the end becoming the very dragon of the dragon balls themselves which is why it was a fine touch for him to return to being a child again because dragonball essentially culminated the way it began, with kid Goku and the dragonballs.

[@jjfeedback443]

And then your fanboying

[@chrisdevine4364]

Can I buy some pot from you?

[@andyjosee8096]

@@jjfeedback443 He spoke a lot of facts tho, how's that fanboying?

[@StevejRodriguez]

You cracked me up every time you censored GT. But this was a great video man. It kind of erked me that you only provided a Yes or No choice on Twitter, because the answer is as you described in the video. The number isn't important, but the context it provides is.

[@yvarjansen5595]

Are we going to talk about that thumbnail? Holy crap..

[@astraldirectrix]

It’s fucking beautiful, right?

[@tastedivinefury2198]

Yvar Jansen ikr

[@Daviyah_yisrael]

That thumbnail is bodacious

[@KanyeT1306]

One of the best uses of power levels for me was when Gohan wasn't impressed by Goku's and Cell's fight because he was judging their power against his own. They set that up beautiful across multiple episodes and the pay off was really cool I thought. It doesn't put a value on it, but I thought it was a great... [uhh, mechanic?] to introduce to the world of DB. That power levels aren't measured by the fighters; they aren't objective. They are merely compared to their own; they are relative. I wish they would treat us to another similar tale like that, although I'm not sure what possible story you could set it up with. Another cool thing was that they had Goku and Gohan maintain their Super Saiyan form as a form of training, to make it as natural as their regular form. Just really interesting theme to explore in the lore of the show.

[@DeanmC261993]

Are power levels important? Well yes, but actually no Well actually..let me explain.. :v

[@alamiraz]

Mark, from my perspective your analysis seems very educated and shows sign of research and not just experience and critical watching. What resources would you reccomend for someone interested but new to narrative design.

[@thejeb7345]

I don’t think power levels are that important, but constant power scaling is.

[@PotsDame]

I'm totally in love with the thumbnail, such an cool artstyle

[@commonviewer2488]

I love how he refuses to say GT, and just bleeps it every time

[@Sougin_0]

@bacon boy ...

[@arx3516]

the scouters serve to tell how the antagonists only rely on raw power and nothing else. Scouters only tell how much energy someone has in that given moment, and Vegeta, Raditz etc. consider that data as the only information they need about an enemy fighter, they can't fathom the possibility of someone hiding its true power. Basically the scouters are there to tell us not to trust appearances.

[@DrSlump-fz9ki]

A couple of things. Gohan was not stronger than all the earth’s fighters depending on his mood, Goku and Piccolo are canonically stronger according to the data books power levels. Second, I really get the entertainment aspect of the Goku vs Vegeta rematch, but that doesn’t really matter there. The power gap between them is enough for Vegeta to want to fall under Babadi’s magic which gives you enough subtext to understand what is going on.

[@descendantofartorias2067]

@@robinhyperlord9053 how is that relevant? Also Yes Saitama is strong in his universe so what?

[@kiddicarus]

...Hadn't a clue how you could possibly make this rather ancient topic interesting. What more was there to contribute to it??? ....A little over 15 minutes later, here we are. Happy as a Saiyan with a yet another Zenkai Boost that we experienced this video. Thank you...Good job!

[@NCataclysm]

Imagine...reaching the level of god hood. Than going beyond that and losing to a gray namekian wannabe

[@RyomenSukuna259]

Mark here: ...And through making that video I discovered a hefty number of people preferred the rematch in the Buu saga, not only do I disagree but I actually never really loved that fight.. Mark in his rewriting the Buu saga pt.1 video: The Goku v Vegeta fight I will not touch, it's a masterpiece and needs to happen

[@stavebner]

Not only did he use a clip from one piece, he also used the one that couldn't be figured out with prior knowledge

[@Teorysta]

i love it when you are saying "GT" it starts beeping

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

And then there's the Buu Saga and Super's way of contextualizing how powerful someone is... *sighs in Screaming Loud enough to blast a whole in reality and flexing your way out of Stopped Time*

[@kataphrut7740]

Just Some Guy with a Mustache I mean, after the Saiyan saga established base Vegeta could destroy a planet, where else was there to go? Warping space-time is about the only thing left you can do to show power escalation.

[@zednotzee]

@@kataphrut7740 Repelling a Spirit Bomb with a mean look is one way, lol

[@JSHADOWM]

@@kataphrut7740 Vegeta destroying a planet with one finger is one of those things that never actually happened. Vegeta is MAYBE able to destroy planets with his Full Power Garlic Cannon, but we dont know, as we never saw the thing hit a planet. The only technique weve actually SEEN thats capable of planetary destruction, is Frieza's Death Ball.

[@souvennir9751]

I’m happy I found this channel a couple days ago. Excellent content! Much love!

[@dath1886]

Plague of gripes is having a heart attack rn

[@CrapMyHat]

His Gohan video and his rewrite of the end of the Cell Saga is legendary. His degenerate furry art may turn people off from visiting his channel, but that video essay is worth listening to if you're a Dragon Ball fan.

[@dath1886]

@@CrapMyHat His DragonBall Videos are some of my all time favorite yt videos. I can re-watch them a million times and never get bored.

[@doctordoom85]

Doubt it, I think his points still stand. Heck, I think there's even more power-level inconsistencies in the series than even POG mentioned, and I really wish more people would acknowledge that the in the actual manga SSJ is not emotion-based, it only happens with Goku's SSJ1 and Gohan's SSJ2, all the other SSJ emotion-triggers in the anime were made up and not in the manga.

[@doctordoom85]

@Shaman Xeed Nah, the anime made up the SSJ1 scenes with Vegeta and the rocks in space, and Gohan having that moment in the hyperbolic time chamber.

[@doctordoom85]

@jesus barrera The SSJ1 Gohan scene was added for the anime. Unless I'm remembering wrong, it wasn't in the manga, Gohan just simply walks out of the HTC with Goku both at SSJ1. I think Future Trunks' emotion scene was also anime-only, but I'm less sure about that. Also, Goten never had an emotion scene, he simply shows us he could do it while sparring with Chi-Chi and that's it.

[@tiagodarkpeasant]

the point of power levels was clear in the Raditz fight "HE IS INCREASING HIS POWER LEVEL", of all planets the Freeza army had conquest, they never found a race capable of increasing power levels during a fight without a transformation, so that makes earth martial arts super powerful, which is confirmed in super when Beerus team consists of earth+Freeza

[@herogokuson5718]

Dragon ball super : When a furry Is on par with a god.

[@youssefalami9736]

Is*

[@herogokuson5718]

@@youssefalami9736 happy? Haha

[@youssefalami9736]

@@herogokuson5718 it's ok I am just kidding lol

[@afro4640]

And that god is also a furry.

[@tastedivinefury2198]

hero gokuson when the god is a furry

[@spartandumpster1158]

I always thought the biggest problem with Power Levels was just how big the scale kept getting. At the beginning of DBZ, I think I heard somewhere that officially Raditz power level was around 1200, so we know Piccolo and Goku's were both a good amount less than that since they weren't a match for him on their own. Assuming that meant they're both close to half of Raditz's power level since the two defeat him, we could say that Goku might have maxed out in around the 600-800 range at the beginning of DBZ. I believe I remember Vegeta's power level when he arrived on Earth was 15,000, and Nappa's was a good bit lower, maybe as low as 5,000. Goku didn't have too much trouble with Nappa before using the Kaioken. This brings us into another problem I have with power scaling, just how much stronger Saiyan's get when they come back from the brink of death. Another one based on memory, I believe Frieza in his first form was up to, if not more than, 100,000, and while Vegeta might not have been able to go toe to toe with him, he was still holding his own fairly well. I could see a Saiyan who recovers from near-death having their power close to doubled, and while Goku did a lot of training between being dead or near dead, Vegeta suddenly went from 15k, to up to maybe 80,000 or 90,000 after being beaten by Goku, if my memory is correct on this. So I don't think Power Levels in general are a bad idea or don't matter, I just think they were handled poorly. The numbers just kept getting unbelievably big to the point where it really didn't seem worth keeping up with. In fact, I think the existence of the Androids kind of support this thought. Trunks killed Frieza and his father like they were nothing, hardly broke a sweat, but then Androids 17 and 18 were too much for him, so to reiterate, the Androids created by Dr. Gero were much stronger than a planet destroying intergalactic tyrant. Who is to say, if he didn't put his knowledge and skills towards good, or actually if another brilliant scientist such as Bulma or even her father based some stuff off of Gero's work, they could keep making stronger and stronger Androids, Cyborgs, Robots or whatever else that could handle just about any threat?! Buu shows up, "oh hey, turns out I just made an Android that's stronger than all of Buu's forms!" Beerus wants some snacks "hey Beerus, meet Android 37" then the Android says "would you like me to open you up a can of ass whupping?!"

[@emmanuelibus]

Power levels are fine, but what's interesting is technique and skill. This is what i really liked from Naruto, up until the rescue sasuke arc. It made the characters unique because they all had different techniques, styles, jutsu, that set them apart. It wasn't really about how strong they are, but how they utilized their techniques.

[@sahil-06-11]

Power levels are good 😄 only when they aren't expressed numerically 😅

[@Lefaid]

Huh, putting this together, I think I finally get some of what drew me to Dragonball Z despite really never wanting to get into it. Thank you!

[@jp3813]

4:24 Isn't that what happened in all sagas of Z anyway? The main villains are hyped up by other characters through dialogue before they're ever introduced. Like most fans, I found Jiren disappointing, but his character is basically done oppositely by just showing us his dominance before his story is ever revealed through exposition. However, my favorite "Tell, don't show" moment of all time is the USS Indianapolis speech in Jaws.

[@Beelz55]

I'm a believer that power scaling and consistency is required, because otherwise you end up with Roshi fighting in the ToP against opponents who can bench press a super saiyan with ease. I think attaching a literal number to a characters potential is a very narrow and lazy way to address it however. I believe One Piece has handled this in the best way possible with the bounty system. While the bounties give the audience and others within the universe an understanding of how powerful an opponent is, it is only what the Navy themselves have valued them as. Which leads to the possibility that they're weaker/stronger than the audience believes them to be. Just because dude A has a higher bounty than dude B doesn't mean he wins outright every time, which allows for its own sense of suspense. Dragon Ball never does this however and actually goes out of its way to enforce it. Back on Namek it was quite genius to show that Krillins Kienzan could cut through Friezas tail while being in second form with a power level of a million. It showed that strategy and intelligence still played a role. But by the time we get to Perfect Cell we're shown the Kienzan literally breaking on Cells neck. Sorry, but he's simply bigger than you and you'll never win. If you were to move away from numbers entirely I believe Hunter X Hunter with its Nen combat system is incredibly flexible. They use Aura almost literally the same way Dragon Ball does, using its size/density as a means of measuring an opponents power. However due to the complex nature of Nen and how abilities function you can almost never assume that the stronger dude will win. A weaker opponent might be a natural counter to a stronger opponents technique etc. One Piece actually does the same thing with the devil fruit powers but ignores Aura/Ki entirely. At the end of the day power levels are stupid and back the author into a corner and invalidates minor characters or abilities that were once very relevant. Seven Deadly Sins started using a numerical power system and just as with Dragon Ball many minor characters fall off very quickly and are little more than Krillins amongst Gokus. However power scaling and consistency are unbelievably important otherwise you get DB Super. It started with Goten and Trunks achieving super saiyan insultingly early and easily but it continued all the way through to Super where you see all the usual arguments/debates. How is Roshi fighting the Frieza force or in the ToP? How come Trunks just randomly and suddenly has the power to fight fused Zamasu with no build up or explanation as to what the form is? Keflas power scaling makes no sense given context of how strong Blue Vegito was 1 arc earlier. The list goes on.

[@Kinra_Jade]

I don't care to be honest, i'm just there for the story. Or are we going to say the heart virus that killed future Goku has a power level higher than his ?

[@Jayjay_07]

Now imagine coronas power level

[@animefan77]

This is my feelings on Power Levels. On one hand, it was important not to determine one’s entire worth on calculations on birth and believe in the merits of hard work and discipline in your teachings to pull through. On the other hand, it also meant that we, the onlookers/viewers of these events are in the dark of how strong a character is and have to rely on in-universe assistance to gauge it. And even that is suspect as sometimes they’re outright lying about their own actual power levels (Goku, Freeza to name a few) and sometimes, people who have been outclassed suddenly become strong enough to match our leads without a thoroughly explainable reason in a very short amount of time, especially in Super. In times like those, a vague answer doesn’t really satisfy the viewers as a number/class ranking would do. Though I did appreciate the initial message of improvement over fatalistic determination of one’s ultimate worth that can’t be overcome.

[@VonArmagedda]

"Power levels are bullshit" - Vegeta, TFS