Problems With Secular Humanism | Ivan-(HR) | The Atheist Experience 25.13

[@bitterroots7317]

Years ago Matt helped me break the last threads that held me in religion, so thank you! Shannon Q is so interesting to listen to and I really appreciate the work these two do.

[@monitoradiation]

Ivan: "Secular humanism expects people to think about things. That's hard. I prefer magical fairy land."

[@ivan.puri.pavich]

Ivan here. If some system, not necessary moral, expected people to solve problems in linear algebra or complex analysis to achieve some goal, you would know that it would only be efficient and applicable if people are equipped with the appropriate knowledge and skill to deal with these problems. The situation is not different for moral systems and moral problems. And no, I do not prefer magical fairy land :).

[@MegaSage007]

@@ivan.puri.pavich Very interesting response. God bless you.

[@karlazeen]

Well yes exactly, Secular Humanism will provide people with the knowledge and skills the need to maintain it.

[@mansenmias]

@@ivan.puri.pavich Still the question remains: secular humanism requires quite a lot from individuals to work well in larger context, but what is the system that produces as good, or better, results and requires less from the people?

[@kevinmitchell6856]

Ivan , you are just word salad vapor's; your mind is non sense

[@themplar]

I love these hosts dont allow bullshitting.

[@andrewxjw]

Matt is correct but Shannon is absolutely brilliant on this one. She really debunked the caller's claims right at the root. Nicely said, both of them.

[@PR-cq4zc]

"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God" (Psalm 14:1) Happy Atheist Day. April 1.

[@chadingram6390]

A master debater and an expert, great duo

[@freddan6fly]

@@PR-cq4zc "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God" - The smart says it out loud.

[@PR-cq4zc]

That is not what God says. You are in grave danger of the Hell of Fire. Read Revelation 20-21, then Luke 16:19-34. See what is in store for your future if you do not repent.

[@freddan6fly]

@@PR-cq4zc Why do you quote a fictions book? It only makes you look really really stupid. Instead go ahead and show evidence for god. Or call in to the show and give us a laugh.

[@gliblyaware]

Shannon, more than any other co-host is the one that allows Matt to let go of the wheel and let her sparkle. 👍

[@gliblyaware]

I'd like to qualify this by saying moreso recently. There have been many great hosts and co-hosts on the show over the years, but Shannon has really been nailing it. She's tough, smart, to the point and likeable. Boom!

[@wunnell]

When people bring up issues with secular humanism or atheistic positions in general, they seem to be assuming that a god exists and that we are choosing something else despite that. This really demonstrates the fact that religious people do not understand atheists, how we think or what our position is. They seem oblivious to the fact that it's not the case that we are choosing an atheistic position over a religious position but rather we don't think that there is a genuine religious position to take so we have no choice but to take an atheistic position and try to come up with the best system we can. If there is no god, as seems to be the case, then how can we adhere to a god-based moral system? Any proposed god-based moral code is simply made up if there's no actual god, so it's still something devised by people but not in an open and transparent way.

[@starfishsystems]

Totally. And in that sense it was interesting that the caller opened by pointing out "problems with secular humanism" that were in fact problems inherent to the human condition. Sometimes we find ourselves in conflict with others, or our own goals are in conflict, or they're not well defined, or they're difficult to grasp, or they're irrational. Those aren't just moral goals, they're all human goals. So what do we do about making decisions? Try to work out the best possible solution by rational means, as we successfully do when solving problems in agriculture and aeronautics and bridge design and everything else, or give up on reason and put faith in an imaginary arbiter for all our decisions? There's no hard line between moral decisions and practical decisions. They're all decisions, and they all have practical and ethical potential.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Yup. But we didn't get to Ivan proving his god exists so as it stood it was just secular humanism vs religion and secular humanism still wins because there's some deeply immoral shit in the bible and quran.

[@jcab404]

I'm still trying to figure out the phrase that is so commonly uttered by theists: "you are denying God". What do they mean by that exactly? A belief system in a Christian God isn't a default position for people. Or are are they referring to something else?

[@wunnell]

@@jcab404 , all Christians obviously believe that their god exists and many (most?) believe that knowledge of that god's existence is inherent in human beings, i.e. our creator god has woven knowledge of its existence into us. They claim that we know that their god exists and thus to say that we don't believe it is to deny reality. This is an example of why the bible is poisonous propaganda. It basically sets up a scenario where being told that they're wrong is proof to Christians that they are right.

[@madshorn5826]

@@jcab404 If they were right they would be right :-) What religious people lack is the what-if gene allowing the rest of us to contemplate hypothetical positions on equal footing - and they absolutely can't fathom that it is possible that _none_ of the positions are actually true even if we think we "have thought of everything".

[@HappyHippieGaymer]

Shannon is amazing!!! She can mentally run circles around anyone but uses that to reach others on intellectual levels.

[@TheTwenty42]

5:22 There is a coercive aspect that forces people to adhere to secular humanism. It's called law.

[@WhoThisMonkey]

That is very true, if you don't comply you get shoved in a box with worse people than you, for many many years. BUT. Would life be better or worse without a rational standing legal system?

[@mariabarker2036]

LOL. Yes, Most U.S. Laws are secular. But not all are. The restrictions we have to live with merely because it is a Sunday aren't secular. The Blue Laws aren't secular. Having to pull over because of funeral processions isn't secular. The increased difficulty in women getting their reproductive health decisions honoured isn't secular. Georgia saying that their citizens can't exercise their right to vote on a Sunday (very recent and may ((or may not)) not last) isn't secular. The benefits of earlier parole, or ability to get foster kids more easily, when we come out for Christ, aren't secular. The rights we have to abuse our animals, natural resources, and our children are not based in secularism, but in the property ownership laws of the Bible. But I agree. In general, our laws are! and are supposed to be! secular. This was a good point you made. Thank you.

[@mariabarker2036]

@@WhoThisMonkey Phil wasn't criticizing the legal system. Just pointing out the problem with the caller, that the hosts missed... Well, one of many problems.... Our laws are SUPPOSED to be purely secular, according to the Founding Fathers. But we don't think of it that way... We should, but we don't.

[@WhoThisMonkey]

@@mariabarker2036 Not all laws are American 👀 We don't have founding fathers here in the UK Fortunately, we don't have as much of an issue with Christianity here in the UK, the church of England saw to that 🤣

[@michaelfox2433]

@@WhoThisMonkey But you folks have King Arthur so you may still be one up on us here in the states.

[@katbell7958]

I had a similar discussion with a coworker from one of my earlier jobs. He could not understand why I did not believe because, according to my coworker, it was only God/Allah that made people good to other people. So he thought it was scary I did not believe because that ment I must lack empathy towards people around me. Eventually we came to the understanding that both of us thought it was important to be good to people around us. But for different reasons.

[@vooveks]

I like that you were polite enough not to mention the atrocities committed by ISIS et al, and how those immoral acts completely destroy that notion. He would probably have come back with ‘yeah, but they’re not _real_ Muslims’ (classic ‘no true Scotsman fallacy that religious adherents fall back on).

[@katbell7958]

@@vooveks The discuss was about 13 years ago, so my memory of it is vague except for a few points we both made, because for me they where very... Different. So I don't remember if we discussed ISIS. Sorry. A thing I remember was I was very perplexed of his way of thinking about religion. Because he thought he was a good religious man, because his mom had a good view of him (because he partied and drank, but she didn't know). And as long as she had a good view of him he would get to heaven. I have never heard that before.

[@michaelfox2433]

@@katbell7958 I honestly believe the majority of theists worry more about how they are perceived by society at large than their adherence to their preferred religion.

[@katbell7958]

@@michaelfox2433 true.

[@MegaSage007]

@@michaelfox2433 If you were a Theist you would know what a Theist is. "You must be born again to see the kingdom of God." Jesus

[@harrycoleii7659]

Ok I am now a sexual humanist, when is the next meeting?

[@scipioafricanus5871]

Covid-19 lockdown must really blow for you guys.

[@alanrosenthal6323]

Thinking hurts poor Ivan.

[@MG-ot2yr]

Our legal system is based on secular morality and rational thought, its not perfect but its not irrational. Can you imagine a group of religious heads sitting around deciding this instead? And these are people who believe everyone is inherently bad just by being born, and according to the Bible the death penalty applies to just about every offense.

[@WhoThisMonkey]

"What's that maam, you weren't married before you first had intercourse?" "Well... Yes, but we got married straight afterwards!" "take her outside and stone her to death"

[@curbroadshow]

Guilty until you promise to worship me and be my slave for eternity.

[@vooveks]

Surely the religious heads wouldn’t need to do anything, as according to them, you’re going to hell anyway.

[@vooveks]

@IronWolfKirvis But god is love or something or other, right? That’s what I heard anyway.

[@keithherring7677]

@@WhoThisMonkey You may want to read the woman at the well verses, or the woman caught in adultery.

[@trinsit]

Wait, sexual humanism is an option? 😲

[@pdutube]

Every time Shannon sips from the Tardis, my internal geek smiles. My mug has a ceramic bug at the bottom :-)

[@AntiTheist_Atheist]

Why is it some believers have so much trouble grasping reality? They couldn't all be trolls could they?

[@michaelfox2433]

The fact they can't grasp reality is why they're theists in the first place,...I know cuz I used to be one until I began to learn how to grasp reality.

[@romankvapil9184]

This guy sounds suspiciously like Otangelo.

[@grantwing4942]

Wrong accent

[@alanthomson1227]

@@grantwing4942 orangery master of disguise ?

[@FourDeuce01]

The problem this caller has with secular humanism is that he can't understand it.

[@sango3128]

It was hard to hear but Ivan said something like "ay come on" while Matt was speaking over him trying to ask him for the 3rd or 4th time if he had any legitimate objections to secular humanism. This means Ivan thinks that "yes I agree" is a legitimate answer to the question. Either there is a HUGE language barrier or Ivan is too thick to understand the actual question posed, DESPITE claiming he has the source of morality on speed dial. Let that sink in for a second.

[@WhoThisMonkey]

If I let the cognitive dissonance of irrational people sink in anymore, I think I'll be driven off the edge. And this is the majority of our species, no wonder I am stuck in misanthrophy.

[@vooveks]

He was doing what all the callers do. Waiting for his turn to preach.

[@MrBijeloplavi]

Hello everyone, greetings from Croatia, hi... You know, here in Croatia, we don't really like Ivan very much... : D

[@michaelfox2433]

After listening to this entire call i can see why.

[@Johnboy33545]

Thank you. I hope you're safe and healthy.

[@warpdriveby]

No... we are not willing to take him off your hands!! Lol 🤣

[@michaelfox2433]

@@warpdriveby Hmmmm do you think that's what he was trying to do? I hadn't thought of that. Good catch.

[@michaelfox2433]

@DrumpTard Zionist Collusion That's an odd but correct example of an argument standing or falling on it's own, regardless of who makes it.

[@bct8881]

Authoritarianism is very popular in his part of the world.

[@lzzrdgrrl7379]

Ivan's ultimate issue is existential despair and placing a moral imperative outside the temporal frame gives hope to the possibility of eternal life. Humanism says this isn't even a problem to solve, and I think that's where his real objection lies..... Possible problems with secular humanism that might be reflected in a distorted moral system: 1. The presumption that we can trust moral decisions to basic human nature, i.e. human nature is basically good...... 2. Well being is a sufficient metric for making ethical choices...... 3. Institutions dating before the enlightenment are obsolete atavisms with no current usage and should be discarded...... 4. human nature and consciousness are governed by the laws of physics and consciousness arises out of the material......... That's picking up the heavy end and you can't do that in a call-in show.....'>......

[@serpenthydra]

Ivan apparently exists in some post-apocalyptic wasteland where there's no such thing as a police force...! To say there's no deterrent to operating against expected rules and regulations ignores an enormous amount of normal everyday expectations...

[@ivan.puri.pavich]

Ivan here. Yes, legal coercion exists, but what I wanted to point out that this is not the same mechanism as one that is present in religious systems. In religious systems, people are indoctrinated to follow a set of rules, and to believe that transgressing these rules brings them step closer to hell. An interesting thought experiment to show that these mechanisms are different is to imagine group of people that is not indoctrinated and indoctrinated group of people in a situation where legal coercion, police and similar mechanisms do not exist. How would this reflect in their behavior? In history, these religiously indoctrinated coercive mechanisms had a role of regulating people's behavior prior to establishment of legal systems.

[@serpenthydra]

@@ivan.puri.pavich I think the cults we have seen in recent history provide sufficient petri dish analysis to make a rough conclusion that those environments police themselves through force of 'cult of personality' as well as more traditional methods of subjugated imprisonment, control through substance abuse, peer pressure and bullying tactics. Where none of those work, example by death is the typically a last resort, although excommunication and banishment can be as effective... To me this demonstrates that an independent force is needed to police a group's society, one that is not beholden to some ideological edict. However, the last caller on this show demonstrated that even the indoctrinated have the capacity for mutual goodness if they perhaps respond to the situation with the mindset that their actions matter more in the world after life has been lived, that no one will speak to them in this life from on high and that being there for others will matter more on this world than thinking that their words and prayers are sufficient... Perhaps part of the key is that mutual benefit overcomes hardship for all regardless of what philosophy drives the group. Indeed, many of these problems are driven around the narratives of what happens to us after death, which remains a constant unknown no matter how certain - there is always a 0.00000001% of doubt. The nth degree even... If we could be encouraged to suspend this in favour of mutual benefit, the world may work a little better... I'm not sure I've represented your approach or argued against or for it effectively. Perhaps if you were to state what you actually feel outside of thought experiments, I could formulate a more accurate response. Perhaps this is why the call failed, I can't tell if you're pro-theistic-humanism or anti-secular-humanism... Your vernacular suggests both...

[@donfisher8979]

I was distracted by the delicious looking food behind Shannon.

[@WhoThisMonkey]

I disagree, I'd rather have a curry, but each to their own

[@mattmower6370]

Tim Hortons! Haha

[@jeffwells1255]

Not to mention Shannon herself ;)

[@michaelzurilla7639]

I didn’t even notice there was food behind the delicious looking Shannon

[@marigi2013]

A rather not ideal place to be co-hosting a call in show

[@artistjoh]

Ivan never understood Nineteen Eighty Four when he read it, or he has never read it. Sure, Big Brother makes sure that the morality of the party is obeyed, but that is the horror of it all.

[@92brunod]

Or he just thinks totalitarian dictatorships are good. There are people like that unfortunately, most of them are religious.

[@nagranoth_]

So... how does "it can be difficult" in any way suggest that it is a wrong approach? So, people have to think through things sometimes. But it's not remotely as if you have to think about each situation all the time. You don't have to sit down and think about whether or not you should enslave this person you just met each time you meet someone... If the general idea is that you try to limit harm and maximize well being, you don't have to think about whether you should attack someone, because the answer is always no, unless for some reason the exceptional situation means attacking said person is the _least_ harmful thing to do in a situation. Which generally means only in defense. Most people don't get in a difficult moral situation that requires a lot of rationalisation in their entire life. Also, what he is saying about different "rules" being based on different situation could conflict: they don't. If they are different situations, the different "rules" don't apply at the same time, so they can't conflict. At worst people might have conflicting _needs_ and the solution is to find the way of addressing this that causes the least harm and provides the most wellbeing. Which is exactly the point behind the system, it's not a problem, it's the solution.

[@scrobag1]

Is this caller Otangelo?

[@grantwing4942]

Different accent

[@dessopopp]

9:05 Matt be out here FUCKIN?!😭

[@dionettaeon]

It seems he was trying to argue that humanist morality is flawed because it's -only ever- subjective. First off, no, we _can_ reach objectivity through secular means, _even_ in discussing exceptions to a general rule like with Matt's theft example. Second, religious systems aren't nearly as objective as you think they are, and you don't need to look any further than the _many_ conflicting denominations, with countless individual interpretations, within a single religion *alone* to figure that out.

[@jamescampbell2521]

There are absolutely no consequences for anything I do, no matter how horrible, as long as I accept Jesus as my savior.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Yup. There's a lot of murderers and rapists in heaven apparently.

[@zerrorogue]

@@TheTruthKiwi Oh, and incestuous individuals, murderous killers, and whoever gets a free pass once someone forgives them of all sins the moment they enter any religion without so much as any fair punishment or justice carried out on the victims of their own "Unintentional, Collateral Damages".

[@freddan6fly]

If Christianity is right, Anne Frank is in hell while Adolf Hitler is in heaven. Let that sink in.

[@kotaperes4646]

There are absolutely no consequences for anything I do, no matter how horrible they are as long they accept $$saint Benjamin franklin$$ as my savior.....amen.

[@MegaSage007]

An absolute misrepresentation by the most dishonest ideology on earth.

[@dhwyll]

Indeed, you can have different people coming to different conclusions. The trolley problem is a perfect example of there not being any "right" answer. Someone might have the idea that the death of one person is preferable to the death of five people, but being put in a situation where you have to directly cause the death of that one person throws a wrench into that. The trolley is going to kill someone and there is no way to tell someone what they should feel regarding having thrown or not thrown the switch. And just because one person is able to throw the switch and feel like they did what they could to save as many people as possible doesn't mean that another person shouldn't dwell on the fact that they directly caused the death of someone. And because there is no correct answer to this, it isn't that the decision is "amoral." It's that those of us outside that scenario are not in a position to judge. Do we prosecute the person who didn't throw the switch for negligence leading to the death of five people? Or do we prosecute the person who did for deliberately causing the death of a person? If both, then the person is in a no-win situation and I would say that morality has failed. If neither, then we recognize that it is a no-win situation and we respect the person for having made a decision that they think they can live with and provide support for the aftermath of that no-win situation. And unless your religious morality has a rule that, "Thou shalt throw/not throw the switch in the trolley problem," then we are left with a secular humanist response to this moral situation. Which means that everybody's a little bit secular. Everybody is left to make up their own minds about difficult questions that aren't well-addressed by their religious moral systems.

[@talitaza8862]

Hey guys. Does Shannon maybe have her own channel/show/thing? Love that girl! 🤗

[@brucebaker810]

I think she does her own content. Maybe here on YT. Not much help. Just combined impressions from comments.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

Yes because these are much better rules/laws: Daughters can be bought and sold: If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. Exodus 21:7 A raped daughter can be sold to her rapist: 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Collecting wives and sex slaves is a sign of status: He [Solomon] had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 1 Kings 11:3 Used brides deserve death: If, however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. Deuteronomy 22:20-21. Women, but only virgins, are to be taken as spoils of war: Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:17-18 Menstruating women are spiritually unclean: 19 “‘When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening. 20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 22 Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, . . . 30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge. 31 “‘You must keep the Israelites separate from things that make them unclean, so they will not die in their uncleanness for defiling my dwelling place,[a] which is among them.’” Leviticus 15: 19-31 A woman is twice as unclean after giving birth to girl as to a boy: A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. ‘ 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding. 6 ” ‘When the days of her purification for a son or daughter are over, she is to bring to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting a year-old lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a dove for a sin offering. Leviticus 12: 1-8 A woman’s promise is binding only if her father or husband agrees: 2 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said. 3 “When a young woman still living in her father’s household makes a vow to the LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 and her father hears about her vow or pledge but says nothing to her, then all her vows and every pledge by which she obligated herself will stand. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her. . . . . A woman’s vow is meaningless unless approved by her husband or father. But if her husband nullifies them when he hears about them, then none of the vows or pledges that came from her lips will stand. Her husband has nullified them, and the LORD will release her. 13 Her husband may confirm or nullify any vow she makes or any sworn pledge to deny herself. Numbers 30:1-16 Women should be seen not heard: Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 1 Corinthians 14:34 Wives should submit to their husband’s instructions and desires: Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Colossians 3:18 In case you missed that submission thing . . . : Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24. More submission - and childbearing as a form of atonement: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. 1 Timothy 2: 11-15 Women were created for men: For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 1 Corinthians 11:2-10 Sleeping with women is dirty: No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as first-fruits to God and the Lamb. Revelation 14:3-4

[@TheTruthKiwi]

@Ren I was being sarcastic. Don't even start me on murder, incest, the stoning of children and homosexuals, belittling of women, dishonesty and genocide. The bible is immoral to the extreme.

[@lookingforonetruechristian7396]

Uh.... Good response Ivan.

[@Rico_Roberts]

It's this type of mentality that led to the Bosnian War. Some people will never learn.

[@lazur1]

Dude seems to think secular moral systems exist in a vacuum. You have the disproval of family, friends, neighbors, partners, observing strangers, and the law, to contend with, more so than when breaking many of arbitrary rules of religions.

[@visforvegan8]

Wait, what was that last sentence. It's after midnight. I need to know. How am I supposed to fall asleep?

[@kingbidenmypres]

Sorry Ivan, can your God please bless me with the ability to understand a word you're saying?

[@jaca2899]

Stop talking over him! Let him speak!!! That's the issue with this show nowadays. In the old days, they let the guests get their thoughts out, and actually engaged in a two-sided conversation. But now, it feels as if the show is more bellicose, and Matt is just grumpy, while almost all the other hosts are just yes-men to him

[@jakesmith5278]

This guy calls in and he has f**kin' NOTHING!!!!

[@brucebaker810]

My constant refrain. "Ya got nothing. Don't you realize ya got nothing?"

[@strezztechnoid]

Ivan has a pseudo intellectual, nearly creationist, sense of subjective concepts and worse, the denouncing of objective rational thought and morality. Magical thinking invariable leads to better results says Ivan; this is what it looks like extending the hypothesis (and I am being generous) out.

[@vooveks]

Yeah, but he said ‘heuristics’. Doesn’t that mean he’s clever and understands stuff? 😀

[@strezztechnoid]

@@vooveks Ha ha, just like when I use a mass spectrometer to analyze my bowel movements, post-facto. Same result, knowing $h*t.

[@scipioafricanus5871]

I think Ivan - Croatia used all his sentences.

[@brucebaker810]

Ivan. How 'bout Secular Humanism with Great Big Guns?

[@mynorgonzalez7962]

POOR MEN, HE DIDN'T ANSWER A SINGLE QUESTION.

[@danielgadomski5129]

I don't agree that pointing the flaws in a moral system obligate you to present a better one.

[@ElectricAlien577]

Unless you're claiming that we shouldn't be following said system. Nearly everytime anyone tries to poke holes in secular morality, it's for the purpose of claiming either their system is superior, or that we simply shouldn't use secular morality. When you're trying to say "this system is bad, we should throw it out", you do necessarily have to point to a better one. If you're just saying "here are some issues i see in this system", you do not necessarily have to point to a better one. And the argument of secular vs religious morality have been done to death. Any person on this show will have already heard and acknowledged every single issue you could possibly come up with. So if you dont have something better to propose, you're wasting everyones time. Its kinda like going to nasa and pointing out that their rockets arent as efficient as they could be, then not offering anything to help solve that. Its like... "Yeah. No shit bro. We know. Do you have anything better? No? Then fuck off and stop wasting our time."

[@aaronmueller1560]

I don’t think this was a super great call. Matt’s point about Ivan needing to have a better solution in order to point out a problem is flawed, in my opinion. I think pointing out a flaw in something without having a solution is a great way to find a solution, and is the basis of progress. In addition the flaw doesn’t need to be unique to secular humanism unless he is specifically posing an alternative (which he only sort of did when Matt told him he had to); if it’s a flaw in all systems then it is still a flaw that can hopefully be corrected. Additionally, Shannon seemed to interpret his point as “secular humanism can’t force people to comply,” which may have been something he would agree with but it wasn’t his original point as I saw it. I think he was trying to say that it is hard for people to actually come to conclusions in secular humanism (which may be a “flaw” but it’s an unavoidable one if we want to be correct in our assessments) and that secular humanism causes people to come to different conclusions in different situations (which is a benefit, not a flaw, called situational ethics as Matt did point out). Shannon at several points asked him to clarify that her understanding of the point he was making was correct, and then kept talking without allowing him to answer, which I thought was extremely unhelpful. That being said, Matt and Shannon, I love you both and you two are better at this live conversation than I will likely ever be, and I greatly appreciate your contributions to this community. And also Ivan didn’t have a valid point, whatever he was actually trying to argue.

[@ElectricAlien577]

While its true that you don't necessarily need to point to a better option to critique a system, in this case it does kind of necessitate you do. The flaws within secular morality are flaws that any person who spent any time thinking about it will already recognize. And probably understand on a deeper level than your average theist. I don't need to be able to have a superior rocket design to tell a NASA engineer that their rockets aren't as good as they could be. But if I go and start telling them that their rockets arent the best, without giving them any semblance of a solution, I'm just an asshole wasting everyone's time. "Oh our rockets arent perfect? Yeah, we know. Do you have any solutions? No? THEN FUCK OFF AND STOP WASTING MY TIME". And the point about asking for issues unique to secular morality is that: every issue anyone points to is present in LITERALLY every other concept of morality imaginable. Every moral system contains all the same flaws that a secular system does, but secular morality doesnt have all the flaws that other systems do, and is therefore superior until one can point to a better system.

[@TheKrunel]

There are problems with moral systems, secular or religious, these are worth talking about. Maybe Ivan has a history of calling in? Otherwise this seemed to me to be haranguing and misinterpreting the caller.

[@aaronmueller1560]

@@ElectricAlien577 I think I would agree with you there, that these issues are ones that have been raised before by everyone who even vaguely understands the system. At which point I think the rocket response you gave is a perfect reply: “Yeah we know it’s not perfect. We are looking for ways to make it better. Do you have a solution? If not, then bye.” But I think they just failed to clearly acknowledge that he had raised a valid concern BEFORE demanding a solution is all.

[@aaronmueller1560]

@@TheKrunel I don’t think this was haranguing or deliberately misinterpreting the caller. I think part of it had to do with this specific show, there were so many insanely bullshit callers arguing the strangest shit that anyone would be mentally drained at this point. I don’t fault them in the slightest, and even when likely mentally exhausted they did much better than I could. I just saw an opportunity for improvement with the benefit of having time to think about it.

[@TheKrunel]

@@aaronmueller1560 Thanks for your reply. Deliberately misinterpreting? I don't think so, either. Putting myself in the caller's shoes: I'm not being listened to. Back in my shoes: I'm curious what Ivan had to say. Haranguing? I'll double down: Matt's performance, for mine, is at times insufferable on axp these days. I wish it wasn't.

[@benjimlem1284]

*"OK."*

[@Wix_Mitwirth]

I'll do it. I only have one rule: don't f* with sh*.

[@ApocryphalDude]

His problem is that there less coercion in the world... :/

[@williamtarry4405]

According to Biblical "morality", slavery is acceptable. So is selling your daughter into slavery. Go figure...

[@rasfari2081]

According to biblical morality you William is a slave either to sin or to righteousness,so how about that,we are all slaves to whatever we served and obey,sin is the master of many, have a blessed day

[@chadingram6390]

@@rasfari2081 Sin isn't real, how bout dat'

[@rasfari2081]

@@chadingram6390 is Evil real? Are there bad things is the world??you don't even know what sin is

[@freddan6fly]

@@rasfari2081 Chad explained for you that sin is not real. Let me spell it out for you: Sin is breaking an imaginary law made by an imaginary god towards this imaginary god, thus sin is as real as god, that is not at all until you provide evidence for existence of your god.

[@rasfari2081]

@@freddan6fly is evil real???

[@FourDeuce01]

Matt: "So what's better?" How about reading an old book of childish fairy tales starring a despicable being called god? ;)

[@FastredGreenholm]

Strange way to pronounce his name🤔

[@leonardosgood7819]

Why does Shannon always have that pissed off kissy face?

[@truthmachine1192]

Ivan is preaching fascism but I cannot figure out if he is a Christian or a Muslim.

[@melTiceTiger]

I'll join sexual humanism, where do I sign?

[@w.c.orielly9059]

🙄... oh FFS..

[@92brunod]

The Christian moral code consists on one thing and one thing only, if you're a believer you can do anything you want, no matter how awful, and as long as you ask forgiveness later you'll be rewarded. How in the hell do they think that moral code is better than any moral code? It's technically not even a code at all, just a loophole they found to have no moral code and do whatever they want without any bad consequences. It gets extremely stupid and ironic when they say we become atheist because WE want to sin, that's exactly what THEY are doing. They set a system in which they can sin all they want but still get infinitely rewarded while good people who don't believe get infinitely punished...

[@cray1185]

I am sorry but I must respectfully disagree with you on your comment. From a misinformed or altered point of view it may very well seem that Christian beliefs allow a Christian to do anything they want [sin all they want] and all they have to do is ask for forgiveness, and all is well. That is the furthest thing from the truth (even if that is what the “believer or non-believer” claims.) In his letters, the Apostle Paul strongly warns against this belief [that you can sin all you want, all under the name of Jesus, and think that you will not have any consequences for that behavior.] He clearly tells Christians not to be deceived by those kinds of teachings. The Christian command: ...do not judge... - this is specifically about the soul of a man [woman.] No one has the right to judge and basically “damn” another to hell. So in my next statement I am not specifically judging somebody’s eternal consequences. But any “Christian” that thinks they can do whatever they want /sin whenever they want is on dangerous grounds with God. Or it just could possibly be that the “Christian” who believes and practices this - had not truly had “salvation” experience and would be someone that Jesus spoke about when He said that He would tell them “...depart from me. I never knew you.” in the life to come. The true Christian will have a heart and desire to try as hard as possible not to “do whatever they want” / sin. There will be times when they do - give in to temptation/ spontaneous do-wrong / “sin”, because we all battle selfish desires. But someone who truly had a salvation experience will then be heavily convicted and remorseful, and have no joy or satisfaction whatsoever in that offense that they committed. And [at least in their life here on earth] they may still have to deal with very serious consequences, for the whatever “sin” they committed. Atheist or not......God loves you. In the end, it is only about you and God. Because God knows you, and you are specifically created by Him and are unique to Him. And He has chosen a way to reveal Himself to you through Jesus. Why He chose this way is a mystery, which will be revealed in the end of this age.

[@92brunod]

@@cray1185 What is the punishment for a Christian that does not follow these commands but later ask forgiveness for not following them?

[@nicolasgamant7389]

@@cray1185 according to jesus "own" words, the ONLY thing you need to go to heaven, is to accept god in your heart, jesus's "sacrifice" already forgave "humanity's sin"....so you can disagree as much as you want, it doesn't change the facts you're wrong on that one as for Paul : "He clearly tells Christians not to be deceived by those kinds of teachings. " oh you mean the words of jesus himself .... ?paul warn us about the words of the son of god ?! is that really the hill you want to die on ?

[@jennifer97363]

Ivan. said.absolutely.nothing. Omg.

[@jeremykoehnlein2158]

I’m down with sexual humanism.

[@dimitrioskalfakis]

boring and tiresome call.

[@MegaSage007]

TRAP QUESTION FROM THE COMMENTATOR: What other moral system does not require people to make rationale decisions? If the caller answered "Christianity," then Christianity does not require people to make rationale decisions. My Christianity requires rationale decisions. You can make one right now. "You must be born again to see the kingdom of God." Jesus

[@brucebaker810]

Yes it was a trap. Not that trap. Ha ha.

[@Stuartharrod1]

He’s just not that intelligent enough

[@plavyn]

I wish they would let the caller speak more. I agree with what the host say, but the approach seems too aggressive

[@brallybear620]

Caller with monotonous voice, and poor English, tries to make someone understand his thoughts about morals but can not give any example at all why religious moral is better than humanistic moral.

[@powbobs]

Ivan is a weird name for an Indian man.

[@2gointruth]

Don’t be an April fool, but learn instead how to live by the will of God… “Always treat others as you would like them to treat you.” And “Love your neighbour as yourself.” That is the Law and the Prophets. Never worship and pray in the way of religions, not even that of the Pope and Christianity; because religions are all led by the many false prophets who continue to mislead us. When only Jesus is the Son of man and the true prophet who was sent (in the name of Immanuel) by God, to be always our one teacher. Here then follows a summary of his true teaching… “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” - (Jesus, at John 4: 24) - “In truth I tell you, anyone who gives heed to what I say and puts his trust in him who sent me, has hold of eternal life and does not come up for judgement, but has already passed from death to life.” - (at John 5: 24) - “Beware of false prophets, men who come to you dressed up as sheep while underneath they are savage wolves. You will recognize them by the fruits they bear.” - (at Matthew 7: 15-16) - “Do not call any man on earth ‘father’; for you have one Father and he is in heaven. Nor must you be called ‘teacher’; you have one Teacher, the Messiah.” - (Matthew 23: 9-10) - “Take care that no one misleads you: For many will come claiming my name…” - (Jesus, at Matthew 24: 4) - “Many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many; and as lawlessness spreads, men’s love for one another will grow cold. But the man who holds out to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the earth as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.” - (Matthew 24: 11-14) - “I am the way; I am the truth and I am life; no one comes to the Father except by me. If you knew me you would know my Father too.” - (John 14: 6-7) - “When you pray, go into a room by yourself, and shut the door. Pray to your Father who is there in the secret place; and your Father who sees what is secret will reward you. In your prayers do not go babbling on like the heathen, who imagine that the more they say the more likely they are to be heard. Do not imitate them. Your Father knows what your needs are before you ask him. This is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Your kingdom come; your will be done, on earth as in heaven, Give us today our daily bread, Forgive us the wrong we have done, as we have forgiven those who have wronged us. And do not bring us to the test, but save us from the evil one. For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if you forgive others the wrongs they have done, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, then the wrongs you have done will not be forgiven by your Father.” - (at Matthew 6: 6-15) - “Pass no judgement, and you will not be judged. For as you judge others, so you will yourselves be judged, and whatever measure you deal out to others will be dealt back to you.” - (Matthew 7: 1-2) - “Truly I tell you; if anyone obeys my teaching he shall never know what it is to die.” - (John 8: 51) - “Always treat others as you would like them to treat you: that is the Law and the Prophets. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it.” - (Matthew 7: 12-14) - “I am the gate; anyone who comes into the fold through me shall be safe. He shall go in and out and shall find pasturage. The thief comes only to steal, to kill, to destroy; I have come that men may have life, and may have it in all its fullness.” - (John 10: 9-10) - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” - (Matthew 7: 21) - “I am the resurrection and I am life. If a man has faith in me, even though he dies, he shall come to life; and anyone who is alive and has faith shall never die.” - (John 11: 25-26) - “I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world” - (John 12: 47) - “Whoever then will acknowledge me before men, I will acknowledge him before my Father in heaven; and whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.” - (Matthew 10: 32-34) - “Any plant that is not of my heavenly Father’s planting will be rooted up. Leave them alone; they are blind guides, and if one blind man guides another they will both fall into the ditch.” - (Matthew 15: 13-14) - “The disciples came to Jesus and asked, ‘Who is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven?’ He called a child, set him in front of them, and said, ‘I tell you this: unless you turn round and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven. Let a man humble himself till he is like this child, and he will be the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me. But if a man is a cause of stumbling to one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have a millstone hung round his neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. Alas for the world that such causes of stumbling arise! Come they must, but woe betide the man through who they come!’” - (Mathew 18: 1-7) - “Though many are called, few are chosen.” - (Matthew 22: 14) - “An expert in the law, [a leading religious Pharisee] tested him with this question: ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. That is the greatest commandment. It comes first. The second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. Everything in the Law and the Prophets hangs on these two commandments.’” - (Matthew 22: 35-40) - “There is no greater love than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends.” - (John 15: 13) - “One of the criminals who hung there also mocked and taunted him: ‘Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself, and us!’ But the other criminal rebuked him. ‘Have you no fear of God? You are under the same sentence as he. For us it is plain justice; we are paying the price for our misdeeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.’ And he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ He answered, “I tell you this: today you shall be with me in Paradise.’” - (at Luke 23: 39-43) - “For it is my Father’s will that everyone who looks upon the Son and puts his faith in him shall possess eternal life; and I will raise him up on the last day” - (at John 6: 40) - “Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you. And be assured, I am with you always, to the end of time.” - (Matthew 28: 20) - Yours, in true Spirit and in our one given prayer, 2gointruth, Thursday the 1st of April, 2021: - (Matthew 5:14-16) - Where every minute (of both day and night) can be a new beginning for any one of us. Let it always be you. Pray to God often before it is too late.

[@ajclements4627]

SPAM. Recycled Spam.

[@freddan6fly]

So stop spamming your nonsense then.

[@2gointruth]

@@freddan6fly I cannot spam my own Public comment. It is not possible! So stop spamming my Public comment with your atheist nonsense. How to be raised above yourself and to eternal life… “I am the resurrection and I am life. If a man has faith in me, even though he dies, he shall come to life; and anyone who is alive and has faith shall never die.” - (Jesus of Nazareth the Messiah, at John 11: 25-26) - Where through him, we shall never have to worship and pray in the way of religions, not even that of the Pope and Christianity; because religions are all led by the many blind guides and false prophets who still continue to mislead us. When Jesus alone is the Son of man and the true prophet who was sent in the name of Immanuel, by God, to be always our one teacher. Here then follows more of his true teaching… “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” - (Jesus, at John 4: 24) - “In truth I tell you, anyone who gives heed to what I say and puts his trust in him who sent me, has hold of eternal life and does not come up for judgement, but has already passed from death to life.” - (at John 5: 24) - “Beware of false prophets, men who come to you dressed up as sheep while underneath they are savage wolves. You will recognize them by the fruits they bear.” - (at Matthew 7: 15-16) - “Do not call any man on earth ‘father’; for you have one Father and he is in heaven. Nor must you be called ‘teacher’; you have one Teacher, the Messiah.” - (Matthew 23: 9-10) - “Take care that no one misleads you: For many will come claiming my name…” - (Jesus, at Matthew 24: 4) - “Many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many; and as lawlessness spreads, men’s love for one another will grow cold. But the man who holds out to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the Kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the earth as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.” - (Matthew 24: 11-14) - “I am the way; I am the truth and I am life; no one comes to the Father except by me. If you knew me you would know my Father too.” - (John 14: 6-7) - “When you pray, go into a room by yourself, and shut the door. Pray to your Father who is there in the secret place; and your Father who sees what is secret will reward you. In your prayers do not go babbling on like the heathen, who imagine that the more they say the more likely they are to be heard. Do not imitate them. Your Father knows what your needs are before you ask him. This is how you should pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Your kingdom come; your will be done, on earth as in heaven, Give us today our daily bread, Forgive us the wrong we have done, as we have forgiven those who have wronged us. And do not bring us to the test, but save us from the evil one. For yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if you forgive others the wrongs they have done, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; but if you do not forgive others, then the wrongs you have done will not be forgiven by your Father.” - (at Matthew 6: 6-15) - “Pass no judgement, and you will not be judged. For as you judge others, so you will yourselves be judged, and whatever measure you deal out to others will be dealt back to you.” - (Matthew 7: 1-2) - “Truly I tell you; if anyone obeys my teaching he shall never know what it is to die.” - (John 8: 51) - “Always treat others as you would like them to treat you: that is the Law and the Prophets. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life and only a few find it.” - (Matthew 7: 12-14) - “I am the gate; anyone who comes into the fold through me shall be safe. He shall go in and out and shall find pasturage. The thief comes only to steal, to kill, to destroy; I have come that men may have life, and may have it in all its fullness.” - (John 10: 9-10) - “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” - (Matthew 7: 21) - “I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world” - (John 12: 47) - “Whoever then will acknowledge me before men, I will acknowledge him before my Father in heaven; and whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.” - (Matthew 10: 32-34) - “Any plant that is not of my heavenly Father’s planting will be rooted up. Leave them alone; they are blind guides, and if one blind man guides another they will both fall into the ditch.” - (Jesus, at Matthew 15: 13-14) - “The disciples came to Jesus and asked, ‘Who is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven?’ He called a child, set him in front of them, and said, ‘I tell you this: unless you turn round and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven. Let a man humble himself till he is like this child, and he will be the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me. But if a man is a cause of stumbling to one of these little ones who have faith in me, it would be better for him to have a millstone hung round his neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea. Alas for the world that such causes of stumbling arise! Come they must, but woe betide the man through who they come!’” - (Mathew 18: 1-7) - “Though many are called, few are chosen.” - (Matthew 22: 14) - “An expert in the law, [a leading religious Pharisee] tested him with this question: ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind. That is the greatest commandment. It comes first. The second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. Everything in the Law and the Prophets hangs on these two commandments.’” - (Matthew 22: 35-40) - “There is no greater love than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends.” - (John 15: 13) - “One of the criminals who hung there also mocked and taunted him: ‘Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself, and us!’ But the other criminal rebuked him. ‘Have you no fear of God? You are under the same sentence as he. For us it is plain justice; we are paying the price for our misdeeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.’ And he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ He answered, “I tell you this: today you shall be with me in Paradise.’” - (at Luke 23: 39-43) - “For it is my Father’s will that everyone who looks upon the Son and puts his faith in him shall possess eternal life; and I will raise him up on the last day” - (at John 6: 40) - “Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you. And be assured, I am with you always, to the end of time.” - (Matthew 28: 20) - Yours, in true Spirit and in our one given prayer, 2gointruth, Sunday the 4th of April, 2021: - (Matthew 5:14-16) - Where every minute (of both day and night) can be a new beginning for any one of us. Let it always be you. Pray to God often before it is too late.

[@ajclements4627]

@@2gointruth You still wanna pretend you don’t understand how comment threads work? You make a comment, expect to be called out on it when it’s clearly spam or just dumb AF, and this thread isn’t “yours”.

[@freddan6fly]

@@2gointruth You public comment is a spam comment with unsubstantiated religious drivel on an atheist channel.

[@ishmaelkelly951]

Is this a Atangelo calling under another name? because if it is, he's nothing more than a troll🙄