Why I, as an Atheist, Am No Longer a Humanist

I no longer call myself a humanist. Here’s why.
In 2019, I was confronted with some ideas which lead to an ideological shift. Thanks to Carl Sagan’s Pale Blue Dot, Jonathan Haidt’s The Righteous Mind, and Peter Singer’s Animal Liberation, I came to see morality a bit differently. Rather than humanism, I’ve taken to sentientism and ethical veganism (and have for some time now). Ultimately, I don’t think labels are nearly as important as the principles they’re meant to communicate, so I don’t care to squabble over labels or definitions when I could instead cut directly to the issues at hand.
The Great Demotions often contribute to the cessation of various kinds of human prejudice. Speciesism, I think, should be the next to go.
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[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

Click here to listen to any of the books mentioned here for free with a 30-day trial from Audible. Thanks for the support, everyone! audibletrial.com/gmskeptic

[@WobblesandBean]

I highly recommend that you read "The Omvivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. I think it will help you. It certainly helped me.

[@edivimo]

Had you hear about Mexie. She also has a vegan position but from the leftist perspective. Very good research. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pYrCdadnn8qsaq8

[@hallowacko]

I wonder what would be a better term for supporting not only humans, but other animals with nervous systems. Animalist? Animist? Neurologist? (watches until 13:50) AH SENTIENTIST.

[@disdanzafilm]

Given everything we know nowadays about sentient life your conclusion is natural and rational one.

[@oliviawolcott8351]

ok, so I'm reacting to the demotion, but what about our evolution as omnivores? is it unethical for other carnivores and omnivores to prey on herbivores? what about communities that base most of their survival on what they can pull from the sea? as I said, I'm reacting to the demotion, but would a plant based diet around the world be feasible? could we produce that many crops? and in those times that drought is bad then how do those people survive? what about indigenous people who rely on their herds for their clothing and food? please answer these questions as I need to understand more. I want to note though that I do agree that we should lessen suffering as a whole for all animals, but I lack the understanding of how that could be and how we could make such a food base successful. it seems to me that eliminating meat and animal agriculture is only feasible for more developed countries. poorer countries need to obtain their food in whatever way that is available to them. please correct my ignorance if I am wrong, but is veganism and vegetarianism a privileged position?

[@CosmicSkeptic]

Damn it man this was like the only think differentiating us 😡 Wanna just merge accounts? No one will notice

[@elijahtrent21]

Lol 😆

[@NotesFromAutumn]

Cosmically modified skeptic

[@joeljohnson896]

@@NotesFromAutumn hey I recognize you

[@blackswan8653]

Get a room, you two.

[@codyhanson1344]

Idk how people even confused you two in the first place, is this some kind of inside joke or something? I never really saw similarities other than that you were both "skeptic" channels.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

I can't wait to get mistaken for Cosmic Skeptic even more now

[@just_a_turtle_chad]

*You are Turtle Approved* ©™

[@aerofiles5044]

lol

[@user-bv9rp4ph1t]

...wait you’re different people?

[@donsample1002]

You need to work on your accent to achieve true Cosmic Skepticism.

[@WireWhiz]

Easy, just listen to the accent

[@an.ode.to.beauty]

As a Christian, always trying to understand and learn new things and be open minded, I have found your channel exceptionally interesting. Thank u!

[@momsberettas9576]

Fetus's are in the human circle and anyone who says they aren't are guilty of the fallacy's he illustrated in this video

[@ComedianArchive]

@@momsberettas9576 No one is saying they’re not. Just as a caterpillar is also in the butterflies life cycle, yet we call them caterpillars and not butterflies:)

[@josephdavis3472]

@@momsberettas9576 This is equivocation. Most people are not of the opinion that a "fetus" isn't a human, but rather that an embryo that is only a few weeks old is not a human *yet*. You have no excuse for not knowing this and you *should* feel stupid. Something tells me you feel smugly superior instead though.

[@haleygray6443]

Human DNA means the embryo is human. It is never not Human DNA.

[@Nonamam]

How do u reconcile or explain that we all will burn in hell & slavery?

[@markmarco2880]

You can be a humanist and simultaneously burden yourself with compassion and empathetic thought for the rest of creation, including organic life forms other than our own. In fact, one could hardly call himself a humanist without holding close to his chest the concerns and the welfare of (especially) the animal kingdom. Which indeed includes humans, after all.

[@jacewright6428]

Thank you for this. I feel like this is where I want to lean

[@raf1717]

Sadly, some humanists wear that plastic badge to show off they hold the best view and ideology. 😔

[@MisterMikhail]

Are his prior views common among humanists? Maybe I just haven't spoken to enough of them. To me those views sound like human supremacism, I don't associate them with humanism.

[@mohithhoney9630]

Yeah, he address this very thing towards the end and feels and expresses the humanist label just isn't for him even if he agree with most of the thing with humanists and prefers a different label to express himself.

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

You are urged to become VEGAN, since carnism (the destructive ideology that supports the use and consumption of animal products, especially for “food”) is arguably the foremost existential crisis.🌱

[@PrinzAviator]

Person: Steals my parking space at the last moment Me: "Why I, as an atheist, am no longer a humanist"

[@Debilitator47]

They will never find the bodies, if you dig deep in the wilderness. DEEP.

[@LeneChibi]

Hahahaha best comment

[@kaufmanat1]

Lolol.

[@almondgirl86]

Yes! yesterday I was pulling into a parking spot and me and another driver spotted each other. We made eye contact and then they honked at me and pulled into the spot I obviously was going to pull into 😂 Oh well, guess they really wanted that spot lol

[@aikou2886]

@@Debilitator47 Just to make sure get a dog or dear corpse that you can bury on top of the other body. Well that and make sure the body is buried vertically, that way it will occupy the least amount of space.

[@PixelTrainer.]

I read the "Humanist" in the title as just "Human", and i was extremely intrigued-

[@danasettepani321]

😂🤣😭

[@Cringer77]

Did you expect him to come out as reptilian or something? 😂

[@travcollier]

I often catch myself thinking "silly hoomans" ;) I'm not exactly neurotypical, so most humans do seem pretty alien a lot of the time.

[@icel8828]

Otherkin moment

[@sigmascrub]

@@Cringer77 indeed I did. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined. 😔

[@Fonzzz002]

I never really understood where this entire "center of the universe" fantasy came from or why it's considered a good thing. I like how big the universe is. Brings me comfort thinking there may be many, many advanced alien civilizations out there who live (mostly) comfortable lives. But to think "nah, it's just earth and humans, forever" is kind of dull tbh. Not comfortable or an upgrade by any means, so I have no idea how people can be shocked or depressed when they find out the universe wasn't a creation for them specifically. I'm also fascinated by the many prehistorical creatures and how they used to live. Makes me feel grateful to live in a time like this as this species, if anything.

[@rico14]

I like this perspective, but I think ultimately most people get really cynical about this story not being about us. I honestly think that’s one of the reasons people cling to religion so hard. Ultimately, I think we’re lucky to experience anything at all. Were just an amalgamation of atoms that’s able to experience love, wonder and so much more 🥹.

[@melelconquistador]

With a little scope you can understand why. Here are some variables you can combine to understand. Beliefs reinforce to some human/earth centricity. Those around them also reinforce such ideas as not conforming would leave them in the outgroup and what consequences that entails like stigmas. Sometimes people are in alot of pain and conceptualizing a smaller reality can lessen the burden of feeling insignificant and worthless.

[@malk6277]

@@melelconquistador Yes, and if this crutch is given to a person at a young age, contemplating navigating the world without it would be understandably daunting. It is relatively easy for those of us who never had the crutch and who have embraced a more uncontrived mode of perceiving the world around us, to think our way is easily accessible to all... but it isn't. This is powerful stuff: literally the core of meaning around which humans construct their reality. Shifting it in ANY way takes effort, let alone in a way that demotes us from the leading, romanticised role to an ensemble cast of infinite scope. I feel an immediate respect and kinship for people choose to work on themselves in this way.

[@williampennjr.4448]

Seriously? You don't think you're the center of the universe? You think your back is against a giant wall? Who's controlling you? I dont let anyone or thing control me. Free your mind and your ass will follow.

[@lifeontheledgerlines8394]

I'm going to college soon as a chemistry student, and though my path may change, my ultimate goal right now is to become an astrochemistry researcher. Basically, studying the composition of stars and the atmospheres of distant planets, work which could aid astrobiologists in potentially finding life on other planets. I think it's fascinating that there is so much we don't know, and it'd be exciting to uncover new things about the universe that we never could've imagined were real! It'd give me more of an existential crisis to know that there was just one rock floating out here in space with things that live, but the uncertainty is what makes life exciting, right? There's so much out there that we don't know, and I feel like people need to embrace discovery rather than be afraid of our blind spots, because that's what leads to slowed progress and it leads to people being hurt when we're unable to acknowledge that we don't have all the answers.

[@blackrosenuk]

As a Christian, I became a vegan over a decade ago when I really checked my whole "pro-life" mindset -- and the cognitive dissonance appalled me. I really appreciate how thoughtful you are. It takes a strong mind to constantly question their biases and mindsets -- and then be able to explain it all! Really appreciate your point of view.

[@avivastudios2311]

There is no cognitive dissonance. We care for other humans we eat animals. There's nothing wrong with that.

[@JacobGrim]

Funny thing is that veganism is probably less pro-life than even the carnivore diet, because that kind of farming kills so many more animals than livestock does. I think the only reason people are vegans is because the animals that are killed simply aren't as cute and as livestock. A single cow can feed someone for a year, while a single person needs acres of land and hundreds of animals to be destroyed

[@mujisu9717]

Plants' lives matter!

[@oliviastratton2169]

Interesting! As an atheist I had the opposite journey. I was a vegetarian and reflexively pro-choice due to being raised by liberal parents. But eventually had to square the fact I didn't eat fertilized eggs (because they were "baby chickens") with my dehumanizing view of fetuses. This moved me towards the pro-life position.

[@markholdahl6511]

""...man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much-the wheel, New York, wars and so on-whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man-for precisely the same reasons.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[@beverly719]

LOL 😂....love that trilogy!

[@beverly719]

@@arthurvice503 that might actually be a sign of higher intelligence that they have NOT done the awful things that the human race has done.

[@emilygordbort7300]

@@arthurvice503 my boy, you are in for a massive surprise

[@DeathEatsCurry]

@@arthurvice503 Woosh

[@nickolausafon5458]

The problem with this thinking is that it assumes dolphins think they're better or happier than us. Happiness itself is an intellectual human construct. ... The man revels and contemplates his society's achievements, often unequally. The dolphin is ignorant but brainy and free.

[@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic]

For those saying that humanism doesn’t necessarily entail human exceptionalism, I agree. Make sure to watch to the end to hear me say that in the video. Humanism isn’t quite an adequate descriptor for my ethical position, though, so I don’t use it. One could have the same ethics as I do and still wear the humanist label. I simply don’t.

[@MrFrog-rc3zx]

Can you make a video on Adam Ragusa?

[@tomoffel1963]

But what is wrong about human exceptionalism? Humans are the only moral agents and the only ones who are even able to care about the well being of other creatures. Stating that we are exceptional would be nothing but sincere in my opinion. Also how can we not be the most important beings in the universe when the very notion of importance and meaning is inherent to our perspective of the universe?

[@CynicalBastard]

For a good read on the "Inhuman perspective" see "Intelligence And Spirit" by one Negarestani.

[@tomoffel1963]

@@CynicalBastard from what i gathered just now on a superficial level it would be more of a post human perspective? Linke concious minds that we may or may not consider still human?

[@tsopmocful1958]

Perhaps we just need to not get too hung up on labelling ourselves as any kind of 'ist' in the first place. Humanism was a product of its time as a reaction against religiously centred mindsets and has been largely made redundant by our modern Western societies adopting secular underpinnings. That means that calling ourselves 'humanists' in this day and age doesn't really mean that much unless we are differentiating ourselves in a very specific way from only some types of religious people who think that our societies should revert to a mindset of a former time. But even then, the word 'secular' is a much more useful and applicable term to use in that situation anyway. And like others here have said, I don't consider either humanism or secularism to have anything to do with human exceptionalism, or to have anything to do with our relationship with other species at all. The words only describe our own social situations, and are not even moral descriptors of any kind. That's why I thought this video seemed to be you agonising over nothing.

[@dethspud]

Expanding your empathy range beyond human animals to non-human animals is simply another step forward in one's personal and society's moral evolution.

[@EvilSapphireR]

Then what do we eat

[@vncur]

@@EvilSapphireR Animals (?)

[@lonnpton5239]

@@EvilSapphireR animals

[@floof6896]

@@EvilSapphireR food

[@deeks86]

@@EvilSapphireR Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants. -Michael Pollan

[@markmarco2880]

The beautiful thing about this particular discussion is how the speaker keeps it in the context of his own, evolving consciousness in relation to (and I love this phrase) the stages of human demotions, beginning with the realization that the Earth revolves around the sun. “Nobility is not the comparison between the self and others; nobility is the comparison between who we are and that of our former selves, then recognizing the progress that we have made.” (-author unknown, but it wasn’t I)

[@trafficjon400]

Ya and your Animal instincts tell you so? Some day Knowledge will help us animals be Captain of an air buss 380 wont it. Grizzly bear Flying one soon to be. Animals are and all ways will be Animals whether atheist or theist its a Fact that Humans are gifted Knowledge and Animals are Not. We are Human Beings not animals as a proven fact by Knowledge its self. Not sure about history but no animals as of yet have Knowledge . get that facted through the thick Highly sophisticated Intelligent Educated College Graduate Heads.

[@RuneKillerz109]

Ernest hemming way and this quote is not the direct quote. "There Is Nothing Noble in Being Superior to Some Other Man. The True Nobility Is in Being Superior to Your Previous Self" is the correct version of it i think.

[@cameronsingletary8941]

When I realized how insignificant we are, I found it soo comforting it felt like all possibilities and opportunities were open. We are not special, we are not perfect, and we can be soo much more

[@pureone8350]

And who said we were perfect?

[@lipton3120]

@@pureone8350 dk some people I guess

[@pureone8350]

@I want to suplex Joe Cecot Christians say we are made in the image of God but were corrupted by sin. According to them, everyone is a sinner and imperfect so we need to turn to God or go to hell. So again, who ever said we were perfect?

[@junbiok7188]

Yeah i hate God too

[@lloydchristmas4547]

Poetry

[@MolterGames]

It takes a very brave person to accept that not only your thinking was flawed, but that you at first became angry when realizing why that it was flawed. Every time I watch one of your videos I realize I have so much to work on. Thanks for all this amazing content!

[@JariDawnchild]

I love this amazing creature's channel. :-)

[@therealatheistexperience7654]

@@JariDawnchild i love paltry amounts of poultry

[@eddybrevet6816]

Believed but never really liked it, can’t think why anybody want to

[@Timmeh_The_tyrant]

So.. you think people who are humanists have flawed thinking but the way you think is A O K.

[@therealatheistexperience7654]

@@Timmeh_The_tyrant meh...

[@sylvaintaif8128]

The ending is more nuanced than the title . "I am no longer" had me thought you came from 100% to 0% humanist. I prefer the explanation at the end : you went beyond "just" humanism and share a lot but not all with it.

[@PascalD87]

This video was a Punch to the Stomach in the best kind of way. I really identify with the “I'll come back around to it”, and here I am. I will have to think so much more about this, but thanks for bringing this up. This may be my most important change in the last years. Cheers!

[@momsberettas9576]

Fetus's are in the human circle and anyone who says they aren't are guilty of the fallacy's he illustrated in this video

[@jacewright6428]

@@momsberettas9576 it's not being human that's as important as the capacity for awareness, freedom, and suffering.

[@jerrymandered]

I came back around to it 30 years ago and only wish that I had done it sooner.

[@stewhv94]

I just thought humanism was the idea that morality doesn’t need to come from a god. I never thought of it as human supremacy. Though I do think as humans it’s important and also hardwired into us that we take care of one another. Same is true for every species, doesn’t mean we’re better in any way.

[@cps_Zen_Run]

Fortunately morality doesn’t come from deities. So many millions killed by those who do. Scriptures is one of the absolute worst places to mirror morality.

[@sirmeowthelibrarycat]

🤔 Indeed so. I have never placed myself as any form of supreme being. Such would be a version of a deity. Ridiculous! We happened to be the one species of life on this planet to have an opportunity to apply our intelligence in a manner that ensured our survival against enormous odds. Unfortunately we have yet to develop the degree of self control necessary for the rest of life here to continue as evolution has worked over millennia.

[@hicknopunk]

You are correct Stew, humanism has nothing to do with humans being the center of the universe. Humanism doesn't even really say humans are important.

[@myopenmind527]

Humanism isn’t about human supremacy, that would be a perversion of what humanism stands for.

[@MohamedAdelSci]

Humanism is that morality is about the well-being of humans, it's not just "morality doesn't come from a deity". In saying that morality is only about humans, you are in fact saying humans are "superior" compared to other animals. No one is saying we shouldn't have moral concen for humans, so your second statement is kind of irrelevant. What is being said is that we should also have moral concern for non-human animals because suffering is what matters morally speaking.

[@american_jackal5956]

Damn man. This channel and these comments make me feel like a smooth-brain ape more than any other. I love it. Really gets the gears turning in my head and allows me to take a step back to appreciate the intricacies of this crazy, horrifying, beautiful world we live in. Have a good one y'all, and spread the love.

[@thomaskositzki9424]

Nice, humble insight, I really apreciate that. BTW are you by chance of the KZbinr OddBawZ? I ask because of your Avatar. It's from a music video but he uses it, too. :)

[@l33t9r0u93]

@@thomaskositzki9424 it's from pearl jam do the evolution around 2:50

[@thomaskositzki9424]

@@l33t9r0u93 That was the track! OddBawZ is a huge Pearl Jam fan. I got to admit, the artwork is super cool. :)

[@american_jackal5956]

@@thomaskositzki9424 I'm not familiar with OddBawZ, I just know the music video.

[@momsberettas9576]

Fetus's are in the human circle and anyone who says they aren't are guilty of the fallacy's he illustrated in this video

[@fractalicflow]

It is very an immense pleasure to see people with life paths and styles so different then mine, come to similar opinions. You are an inspiration and your videos are really great. I am sharing this and I hope to see you continue growing

[@ofconsciousness]

Hey thank you for your channel in general, you are brave af to talk about this stuff openly on the Internet and even leave your comment section open. Thank you for having such guts. Your content is a great benefit to me.

[@Sk4lli]

I came up with a similar line of thinking a while back. But different books triggered this thinking process. Since I'm a software developer I read books about User Interfaces and User Experience. So I read "Don't Make Me Think" and then "Designing with the Mind in Mind". These books went into detail how humans see the world and how we work and process our surroundings. We have the "lizard brain" which handles more than 95% of our decisions. So most of the time we are acting as smart as animals. Thinking more about it made me change our mind that we are special. Then if looking at the animal world, there are many examples of animals acting very smart and showing "human" behavior such as compassion. So now I think human are just an animal with a tad bit more complex brains, but not by much.

[@bakarenibsheut12]

Thank you for sharing the names of the books. I'll give them a try.

[@Sk4lli]

@@bakarenibsheut12 I hope you enjoy them, both are good for software developers or designers. Don't Make Me Think references Designing With the Mind in Mind a lot, but Designing with the Mind in Mind dives much deeper into details, while the first has more practical examples.

[@bakarenibsheut12]

@@Sk4lli I think I'll start with the latter. As a beginning software developer, I should find this interesting.

[@Sk4lli]

@@bakarenibsheut12 Good luck and enjoy your journey then! 😀

[@duderyandude9515]

I LOVE THIS COMMENT!!!

[@fredodonnell3323]

If you lived with an animal, as with a pet, even a "lowly" animal like a bird, you would realise that they're not that different to us. Most are able to love and enjoy a hug and have characters and personalities and have an instinct for survival. If you lived with one, you would realise you can't treat them much differently to humans.

[@CaptainTae]

Do you ask your birds for consent when you treat them as an equal in the bedroom?

[@genesisz1]

@@CaptainTae he said “not that different” and “can’t treat them much differently.” Not they are exact “equals” to us. Are you even reading?

[@CaptainTae]

@@genesisz1 So if there IS a difference... what are we talking about? Stop trying to proselytize for 5 seconds.

[@genesisz1]

@@CaptainTae are you seriously asking what the difference between a bird and a human is? I don’t teach first grade. Also it’s completely irrelevant, because the point that is being made is that they are sentient beings who feel pain, suffering and other types of emotions just like us human animals do, that’s why we should give them value over taste pleasures, just like you would a human animal.

[@CaptainTae]

@@genesisz1 No. I’m not asking anything like that. Did you misunderstand or is this a really bad attempt at a Strawman?

[@abu-fuckeral-punani6287]

So nice to know that this thought is also shared by other athiests.I have finally accepted myself as part of the animal kingdom.

[@pmi74m]

This is one of the best stories I've found on internet and I fully agree with you. Thanks for giving me the right words to describe what I feel.

[@animator765]

I’m pretty sure you’ve misunderstood humanism as human exceptionalism when that’s the not the purpose of the ideology, we are humans we can’t get away from that and we instinctively want to socialise and interact with humans hence the name. This doesn’t prevent us from caring for or relating to other species on this planet as we share common needs.

[@fordprefect1925]

Agree. Humanism does not preclude veganism at all for instance. It does not posit that human beings are an inherently superior species or that our wellbeing is more significant or that somehow we are cosmically paramount. It merely states that human philosophy, reason and emotion are the best moral, experiential guides we have. That means considering human well being and happiness and of course the suffering of other animals. There is plenty of reference to this on the humanists UK wesbite. Humanism has a scientific basis that recognises we are simply evolved mammilian apes and tries to get the best out of our impulses and consciousness.

[@AV57]

Unfortunately, there is a rather large segment of secular humanists that attempt to strengthen their opposition to veganism by pointing toward secular humanism. Matt Dillahunty, for example, has been doing this for years.

[@fordprefect1925]

@@AV57 Interesting. Would you mind posting an example of this? I would like to see it. I would not allow that to inform your understanding of humanism as a whole. That isn't a humanist principle nor a perspective I imagine most humanists take. Most definitions of humanism talk about placing all living creatures at highest moral importance.

[@AV57]

@@fordprefect1925, i can’t quickly get a timestamp of them. I’ve been listening to the Atheist Experience for probably 10 years now and when a vegan challenges Matt, he will occasionally point out that he is a secular humanist first and foremost and that the interests of nonhumans logically take a backseat. I’m not saying he’s correct in portraying humanism this way, but he and apparently much of his audience, think that argument holds water. It is a rather annoying argument that even people who don’t use the label “humanist” will trot out. They will insist that you have to choose between human rights and animal rights, otherwise you are some sort of species traitor.

[@fordprefect1925]

@@AV57 well that certainly isn't my view nor the view advocated by humanists UK for instance. Not sure whether it's an American thing but I don't think that the argument that I am a human therefore the suffering of my fellow humans and myself come foremost is logical except in cases of survival. Humanism advocates the basic scientific understanding that have the capacity to experience suffering and at a basic level instinctively avoid this and seek pleasure. Therefore it also logically argues that we should seek to prevent the suffering of animals as they are also sentient beings and they share our experience in this regard.

[@kapnkerf2532]

"Do you classify yourself as humanist?" "Negative. I am a meat popsicle."

[@impolitevegan3179]

in this case soy popsicle. Funny scene tho.

[@jackknife4547]

Big badda boom!

[@Meskuzze420]

Nailed it

[@MateDrinker33]

#fifthelementfansrepresent :D

[@gurusage]

More like a bag of meet trying to avoid being consumed by other animals.

[@alexreid1173]

I grew up with a very similar belief system to this (in a vegetarian/animal rights family), so this video didn’t really challenge me a lot, but I love it. What you pointed out was a large part of the reason why I never really understood most mainstream monotheistic religions. It just conflicted with everything my parents taught me.

[@gladysbatten822]

This is my second time watching this, along my journey of deconstruction where I have come to rest in the past year as an agnostic theist sentientist (with a Pentecostal heritage). This video helps me continue clarifying. I have held the belief, long before formal deconstuction began, that in the context of methodological naturalism, the emergence of consciousness deserved compelling consideration. We (1) presently observe many sentient animals, and (2) as part of our future, we may need to make ethical judgements regarding general artificial intelligence, or (3) if we solve the problem of abiogenesis, attend to ethical considerations for life that we might create where consciousness emerges. I just wish I was 21, rather than 61, and that science had come up with ways to prolong my life to about 300 years old. I, with cautious yet enthusiastic,optimism, would love to see where this goes.

[@momsberettas9576]

Fetus's are in the human circle and anyone who says they aren't are guilty of the fallacy's he illustrated in this video

[@TheFalconerNZ]

l am against artificial extending life spans as only those that don't deserve extended lives would be able to afford it (the greedy rich, not the altruistic poor) & at 61 myself l don't want to live to 100 (due to failing health) let alone into the 100's but l do wish l could come back every decade or so to see where we have moved to.

[@Illawong]

@@momsberettas9576 Your comments would sound more useful if you would at least learn to use apostrophes. However, pointing out the obvious that fetuses are part of the human cycle of life adds nothing to the study of ethics. Something that is entirely insentient cannot be harmed in any way.

[@trafficjon400]

Be nice to know we are seeing it now?

[@trafficjon400]

@Sky Gardener Ya but i'm a animal like a Human animal and wanted to keep gaining the knowledge you humans get but still they won't Let me be a Captain of the Air Buss 380? I'll keep trying though Good Luck . Human Being is and Grizzly bears who are intelligent but Apes or Gorilla's have not ridiculouset achived Knowledge is Making me feel sick these days because they know they never will and waste our tax money on such rediculis movments with these Animals. When will our loving non Mamipulative Creator Give us a Spititual Sign and not just the way things are turning.

[@matthewdancz9152]

Interviewer: "What will make you change your mind?" Bill Nye: "Evidence."

[@marieblackbird89]

Evidence for what specifically are you interested in?

[@jarodstrain8905]

@random videos nothing you just said is accurate. Even the 3230 genes is an estimated hypothetical based on modern humans. It also represents only 10 to 15 percent of our genes, and is included in the DNA we share with other primates.

[@kmndrs]

Your misunderstandings / misrepresentations from genetics and archeology are indeed evidence of something...

[@9535310131]

Wow, the gatekeepers of the evidence land

[@K3wlG33k]

@I want to suplex Joe Cecot Funnily enough that you mentioned Norse, it is quite possible that the story of Adam and Eve was invented to be more inviting for Nordic people or to entice them into Christianity (roughly around when tensions between the two were not great to put it simply; mind you this could possibly date the story of Adam and Eve long after much of Genesis was already written beforehand in the Torah). There are many similarities between the first story in the Bible with the Nordic myth. More specifically, Adam and Eve is quite an interesting and reasonable take on possible events post-Ragnarok. When the gods' were essentially dying, one god (I think it was Odin, but I could be wrong) hid 2 humans behind the world tree in order to at least save humanity: one man and one woman. Also, Christianity didn't make much of effort to differentiate itself from Norse mythology with the whole "Tree of Life" as it sounds familiar like, say, Yggdrasil. *Granted, a lot of this is just speculative,* but I wouldn't put it past the Catholic church to concoct this plan to ease tensions and convert the Nordic people over to Christianity. It just makes too much sense historically speaking in my mind.

[@ArielPontes]

The title of this video should be "Why I, as an Atheist, No Longer use the label 'Humanist'". I understand what you're saying and I agree that the capacity for suffering is the condition for moral consideration, regardless of species, but suggesting that Humanism is speciesist is an unfair misrepresentation of Humanism. It is really a straw man attack (intended or not), since nothing in the Humanist worldview suggests this. On the contrary, Humanists International explicitly states in their website that humans are not the only species worthy of moral consideration. If you don't like the label "Humanism", that's fine, but then your problem is with the branding and marketing of Humanism, not with the ideology of the movement itself. The current title doesn't transmit this though. It transmits that you have a problem with the ideology itself, and that attitude is not justified by the arguments provided in the video.

[@mrvnoble]

You've articulated my own immediate response to the title. It could just be a question of degree and humanist moral considerations of other species just aren't up to snuff for him anymore. To some ethical vegans, a moderate humanist's response to the realities of the modern meat industry is not enough, and philosophy must be followed with action. And honestly, the label could use work. Humanist is useful but may be outdated soon if not now. The alternatives also don't strike well for me.

[@bb1111116]

@Ariel Pontes; Thank you for your comment which fits my view about humanism.

[@soulmechanics7946]

👏👏👏

[@soulmechanics7946]

This is not a genuine testimony though. Nonetheless, very well stated.

[@robinarkell7221]

I could be wrong, I'm not particularily well versed in humanism, but from the video it seems like the reason he's rejecting the label and the ideology is because of how it's actually undertaken, rather than what is presented as the principles? Also, the human centric worldview seems like it would lend itself to the valuing of human like traits above any others in animals? First of all, stating that other animals may also be worthy of consideration isn't the same as actually saying all animals (with the ability to feel pain, at least) are worthy of the same consideration. Recognizing the value of gibbons, dolphins, gorillas and other creatures that exhibit human like social behaviors and high intelligence is something that fits very well with the idea that human intelligence sets us apart. Valuing a chicken at the same level does not. While he's not saying he values every living creature equally or anything like that, the viewpoint he's espousing does seem to be a broader form of consideration for animals than humanism would promote and one that doesn't rely on similarity to us. Secondly, and perhaps more important, he explicitly mentions the behavior of humanists and their human centric point of view, while saying he still agrees with them on many points. If a large section of a community acts in a specific way you disagree with consistently then the publishing of more moderate viewpoints by people within the community doesn't come off as the truth- it feels disconnected or disengenuous. When a representative organisation for a group that is frequently xenophobic and hateful (let's say...the Republican party) publishes a diversity and inclusion statement on their website it doesn't make me think that's what the grouping as a whole believes and follows, it makes me think they're trying to soften their position to make people on the fence feel more comfortable. This is less severe than that, obviously, but the point still stands that if it's an issue with the community, even if the ideology doesn't support it, you still probably don't want the label. TLDR; When you use a label associated with a community you indicate yourself to be a part of that community as it actually is, reguardless of how different the community may be from the ideology it's named after.

[@AndrewJamesMcQuinn]

I call myself a humanist and never thought it meant 'human only' as I thought humanism means using our abilities for the betterment of all life and environment.

[@avivastudios2311]

All life? Why all life? Does it say that in the definition?

[@AndrewJamesMcQuinn]

@@avivastudios2311 why? Because of our environment and future of the planet, and the moral responsibility not only for protecting that, but the dignity and compassion for all living things.

[@lucasyoungers]

Man this video put into words what I never could. I became stopped using and consuming animal products for just the reasons you set out, but I couldn't articulate exactly why at the time.

[@perrygershin3946]

I recently thought about this more deeply than I had ever done so before. What about raising animals for food makes you think we are making them suffer. In most cases we assure that they are well fed and cared for. They don't have to fend for themselves in a potentially dangerous environment. They are also often provided with medical care if needed. While their lives are cut shorter than they would otherwise be I don't believe they are aware of what will be their ultimate fate. When they are slaughtered I think it occurs very quickly and the time of suffering is very short. If they were not bred and raised for food it is very unlikely that they would ever have existed at all. Would you rather have a short life where you are well cared for, not knowing your ultimate fate or never to exist at all. I know that there are some cases where their living environment might be less than ideal, even to the point of causing them suffering. This however wouldn't have to be the case if there were laws against this and they were enforced. There are other cases, fish for example, that may be harvested from the wild and maybe this should be reduced or eliminated entirely. It's very possible that I have missed something in my reasoning and if you believe that is the case then please point out my error. Thank you.

[@ellaheather3500]

@@perrygershin3946 "in most cases we assure they are well fed and cared for.." uhhhh... Haha no. That's not how factory farming is. Majority of the world's meat and animal products are the result of truly horrible, traumatic, and inhumane conditions.

[@perrygershin3946]

@@ellaheather3500 Hi Ellla, thank you for your reply to my comment. I have to admit that I know very little about factory farming. I was born and raised on a small family farm in Iowa. I can say for certain that our animals were well cared for. The same goes for the surrounding farms that I was aware of. If factory farms are indeed causing a lot of suffering then I would like there to be laws against that practice and have them enforced. I stated that in my original comment. If the suffering were eliminated then would you have any other objections to eating animals? Do you see any other problems with my reasoning? I am truly curious and would appreciate any further replies.

[@perrygershin3946]

@Big Chungus Is it OK for animals to eat other animals? If humans are animals too (I think we are) then why can't we eat other animals?

[@momsberettas9576]

Fetus's are in the human circle and anyone who says they aren't are guilty of the fallacy's he illustrated in this video

[@AnthonyChinaski]

“[Why] can’t we all just get along?” - Rodney King Perhaps the most relative question ever asked by a human.

[@Mark-co8gt]

Did you mean 'relevant'? Or if relative, what do you mean? :) Edit: Oh, I got it now (I think), ignore me (or don't).

[@marionow6227]

I thought it was Jack Torrance who said this....

[@riches3581]

humans are chaos , that's why

[@dcxxxx]

@@riches3581 And this is why we can travel to the moon and back while not solving the homeless, drug, or violence problem.

[@albertjordan3249]

@@dcxxxx Nah we're highly ordered. Its just that we're (as a society) much more motivated by the threat of a foreign power controlling a new frontier and the potential suffering it might cause than actual human suffering happening here and now. There's a reason we haven't had a human on the moon in 50 years.

[@aramdg]

As an ethical vegan for over 3.5 years and currently deconverting from Christianity, I agree with you 100%.

[@saganandroid4175]

Welcome aboard. Pass the hummus.

[@Kanzu999]

That's awesome. I've only been a vegan for about 2 months now, but I don't see myself stopping. When you say "currently deconverting from Christianity", that sounds really interesting, but what exactly do you mean?

[@aramdg]

@@Kanzu999 it’s been a process for the past year or so. Just reading a lot trying figure out if I believe at all. Looking for evidence and reading the Bible through the eyes of a skeptic. Reading it this way really shows everything that is wrong with it, so I pretty much don’t believe now, but I still want to learn and be able to defend my reasons why I no longer believe. Especially to my family since I haven’t been able to come out to them.

[@Kanzu999]

@@aramdg Yeah I think I get that, even though I can't say that I've been in the same situation, as I was never raised to believe in any faith. I think it's such a shame that it's difficult to come out to your family, but it's also very understandable. I don't know your family, but my guess is that they are just convinced of different beliefs than you, but they still want the best for you, and so it makes sense that they would worry, especially if they think you're going to Hell for not believing. I honestly think it's so sick that stuff like that is put in people's heads and that it actually makes sense to them that the most perfect moral, good and benevolent being would make it so that you get eternal suffering just for not being convinced of the right belief. That's something I truly have a hard time understanding. In any case, it really makes sense that you want to learn more to be able to defend your position better. I don't know if this is helpful to you, but I've worked just a bit with some highlights of the Bible that I find relevant in the religion debate. I haven't really shared this with anyone before, but with this link you should (hopefully only) be able to view it lol. You might already be aware of all this, but if it helps, that would be pretty cool. docs.google.com/document/d/13rYAe_9E2N-8lSYtgtadElxKHNHdAA5UcDn2ljctgSY/edit?usp=sharing

[@Kanzu999]

@@aramdg It's a work in progress and very messy though.

[@kennethsmith5309]

This video is holding up beautifully a year on. Bravo and thanks for the thoughtful content

[@nate5eplayer574]

The most difficult conclusion is that there is no absolute answers, to anything. We can always nuance more and the shades of grey change but never become absolute. All we can do is commit to learning and improving. Always growing but never arriving. 😊

[@TheFoxRIO]

I'm really glad to see more and more skeptics talking about animal abuse in animal agriculture. Especially channels I've been following for years. Thumbs up, I hope people will get your message.

[@ytunnuyt]

Animal suffering is an argument for reforming the industry, not an argument for veganism.

[@jaminelvers7250]

@@ytunnuyt Still better than nothing

[@caseyjude5472]

I don’t see the word “vegan” in the OP. Nor is it referenced. Thus, I will say that animal suffering is an argument for reforming the industry, not an argument for home composting.

[@ytunnuyt]

@@caseyjude5472 Drew did mention veganism in the video, or are you commenting in the wrong video by accident?

[@hicknopunk]

What about vegans mass murdering plants? They are alive. Some communicate. Being a vegan is just another lie, a justification to kill to live.

[@bubbleflix3641]

I'm interested what you think about antinatalism

[@josephbelisle5792]

Well said. A great video of well reasoned, self aware, critical thinking all within the concept of respect for others. It was a pleasure to watch. Thank you for your dedication and effort to post this and other videos.

[@JJMcCullough]

I'd love to see you do a video on the abortion debate.

[@jefferyjones8399]

Nice to see you here, J.J.!

[@joeljohnson896]

My second favorite canadian

[@marcodiaz7199]

OH SHIT ITS JJ

[@caimaccoinnich9594]

There isn't really a debate with abortion though... Foetuses are not babies - I think that's the whole debate right there.

[@d.profet5873]

@@caimaccoinnich9594 wym there’s no debate, one side says there should be no abortions one side says there should be abortions - tell me what I’m missing here

[@dnickarz]

I was convinced that animals were worthy of ethical consideration 30 years ago when I became vegan. Humans thinking that they're on top and above every other life form on the planet has lead us to the disaster we are experiencing today. Climate change, habitat loss, factory farming, pollution and more. Thanks for thinking this through.

[@NoSpam1891]

A lot of that is caused by stupidity, possibly wilful, and laziness.

[@SlothsDontLie]

Wow! 1 of my new fave channels! Thank you for sharing your research/thoughts. My late bff woulda lived this channel too.

[@IndigoGonzo]

Well done! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[@fefhydg6082]

i’m too drunk to watch this video but you have beautiful eyes

[@WobblesandBean]

As a fellow waterfowl, I agree!

[@lilsaam]

I'm jealous

[@acespiderqueen3630]

Yes

[@gelbadayah.sneach579]

Glad to know I'm not the only person watching this drunk (and not the only one fawning at Drew's eyes.)

[@PersePixels]

This comment is underrated... But hope you get the time to watch later 😆

[@ryanolson2308]

Your transformation from a deeply religious person to an empathic and understanding atheist and now ethical vegan is so inspiring. Keep sharing and making the world a better place. You’re fighting the good fight

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Fighting the good fight is borrowed from scripture, the apostle Paul to be exact. "For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. From now on there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day-and not only to me, but to all who crave His appearing.…" To fight a good fight means there is something worth fighting for. If there's no God then there's no moral framework and the universe is essentially meaningless, and amoral. Therefore in the atheistic worldview there is nothing objectively good or objectively bad, and nothing objectively worthy to fight for. Your subjective perspective might view the suffering of animals as bad but there's no moral framework that objectively supports that view within your worldview.

[@ryanolson2308]

@@prayunceasingly2029 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

[@jona.scholt4362]

I wish I could go ethical vegan but I fully acknowledge my weakness as an omnivore. I don't think I have the willpower and discipline to forgo all animal products, not just meat. I did however go vegetarian for about 5 months while in college almost 20 years ago (yikes!!!) just to see if I could do it and while difficult at first (mostly out of habit more than anything else) it became easier as it went on. From that experience I now do not feel the need to have a meat portion with every meal (many if not most people feel that every meal needs a portion of meat or it's somehow "incomplete") and every week there are days where I have no meat at all. If people can go vegan or vegetarian I think that's great, especially concerning the ethical issues of massive meat factories and because of the terrible effect on climate change. However, if us omnivores simply went without meat for 3 or 4, heck even 2 days a week, especially beef, it would have a serious (and great!) impact on the aforementioned issues. So if you are weak and lack discipline (like me) when it comes to the consumption of meat consider just reducing instead of eliminating; you can make a difference.

[@Tore_Lund]

@@prayunceasingly2029 I totally agree, Ryan Olson is kidding himself. Empathy and Atheism doesn't mix. There is no purpose in concerning yourself with other people if there is no purpose. You do it only to feel good about yourself. It is the endorphine kick from helping others, which evolution has given you to enhance your family group's survival on the savannah. What he is saying is like a junkie claiming Heroin is the ultimate form of meaning and purpose. There is only biochemestry and elevating it to a purpose, is exactly like any other religion ever invented.

[@CaptainTae]

By deciding to adhere to a bunch of rules someone else came up with. To act morally superior based on the group you’ve decided to join. To tell people they are bad for how they live. He is still in a religion. This one is just more pretentious.

[@Shoot4AlarmFire]

I didn't know what a humanist was before clicking on this video, but I love the way you described it. Sometimes, labels do more hamr than good, but they also exist for good reason. Personally, I am happy to call myself an ethical vegan, and I always make sure to choose my wording carefully when explaining it to people, because there is still so much confusion.

[@JakeSmith-jr8cx]

Hey, I'm an anthropologist and this gave me two suggestions on future reading. First, I would look into Latour's nature-culture Divide, and second the Ontological Shift in the Humanities/Social Sciences.

[@crystalleyvonne818]

Remembering that humans are just mammals who make things too complicated is what keeps me humble..and frustrated

[@user-qi3lv5og4v]

I disagree , yes we might not be a divine race chosen by a flying man from the heavens but we really are an extremely intelligent race capable of doing extraordinary things. The pinnacle of mankind (General Relativity , Space exploration , Modern medicine,AI ) are truly remarkable achievements. If in solidarity , I believe mankind can truly achieve things which could be considered remarkable even in a cosmological scale.

[@user-hi2fp1he5g]

@@user-qi3lv5og4v arguing for the superiority of humans... Wow... it's not like there are animals going around, trying to oppress us or something. I'm not saying that what you wrote is inherently wrong, but why did you even feel the urge to write it in the first place? You don't have anything to prove, we're all humans here. It's like a bizarre reinvention of trying to defend your lifestyle choices, or everything you remotely identify with, for that matter.

[@crystalleyvonne818]

@@user-qi3lv5og4v I don’t wanna achieve remarkable things tbh. I just wanna coexist with the rest of the stuff on the planet man. That’s remarkable enough

[@user-qi3lv5og4v]

@hello 2.0 Mostly because I am fed up with people commenting everywhere "hUmAnS aRE jUst aNimAlS" or something along the lines of it. Do you really think a chimp could solve the Schrodinger equation or even comprehend it even in a thousand years? As far as we know mankind along with evolution, technology and science is a rare phenomena which might not even exist in our observable universe. We aren't just some mammals.

[@pureone8350]

@@user-hi2fp1he5g I agree with @001, it's simply annoying when people say "humans are just animals" and pretend that there is nothing different between a fish and a human. I have even seen some try to justify bestiality with this line of thinking. No one is arguing that humans have some transcendent superiority over other animals... we're just saying humans act, think and behave in a way that's very different from all other animals on earth.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

We are animals. Who would have guessed.

[@Brooke-rw8rc]

Cellular biologists and taxonomists.

[@impolitevegan3179]

first it was obvious, then we started to feel very special and sopped being animals, now we're realizing it again.

[@brenthernandez6910]

Morality comes from objectivity. Morals come from truth. Is it bad to be slow to anger, be patient, be kind, be peaceful, be righteous, be honest, be truthful, have self control, put the truth first, don't be arrogant, don't have pride, don't let money be your god, don't brag, don't say evil and mean things, don't lie, don't disobey your parents, don't be ungrateful, don't be unholy, love others, forgive people, don't gossip, don't be cruel, love what is good, love your friends, don't be reckless, don't be conceited, don't let pleasure and feeling good become your god. Is any of what I just listed considered bad?

[@doctorheadblog]

Exactly. And one of if not the most detrimental animals in existence respective to the survival of all other earthly life. It is very easy to flip out perspective to see ourselves as a dangerous parasite.

[@doctorheadblog]

*our perspective

[@clieding]

Great speech, it was thoughtful, insightful, honest and profound. This “enlightened” philosophical view has the power to transform our suffering world. I look forward to watching more of your videos.

[@BlindJustice]

Well done. I appreciate your continued pirsuit of truth and willingness to modify yourself and behavior to align therein.

[@cyyy]

you can be a humanist without being human-centric

[@LwJohnL]

Agreed! I've never really associated humanism with human egocentrism.

[@BoringTroublemaker]

I agree. Humanity has it’s own place, including its own unique flaws and strengths. And while I’ve never considered humanism as human-centric, there is a reality that humans are the only ones who can completely screw up our existence and we are also the only ones who can save us. With that is an inherent responsibility to be better. As far as the vegan argument- humans aren’t removed from the food chain and i wouldn’t expect a bear or lion or shark or whatever to consider my suffering before snacking on me.

[@adrianneavenicci]

I equated humanism with a belief in the power of humans rather than the belief in a god who could solve all our problems. I never saw it as so human centric that it forgot about the lives of other creatures.

[@AmberyTear]

Yea, I think that's the healthiest humanism.

[@pansepot1490]

Drew seems to imply that “humanist” is synonymous with “human supremacists”. I never knew that that was the case.

[@naomilovenpeace]

I mean technically speaking we are the center of the observable universe 😂

[@alessandrovigano8149]

That is only true if we are the only observers 👽

[@fearofaveganplanet8513]

* centre of the universe observable *by us*

[@brianhindman8260]

It's not true either way lmao

[@SeeAndDreamify]

@@alessandrovigano8149 every observer is the center of their observable universe.

[@RSAgility]

If I’m outside a box, I’m not inside of it. If we’re not the center of the “observable universe” then we are not. No matter how centered you might think you are in Spacetime, there is no center. even in our Galaxy we are very far from the center. That’s just the mentality of narcissists.

[@lukeyboi0899]

Mate, you really hit the nail on the head with this one

[@bxp_bass]

My path approx 10-15 years ago. Except - I've never was a religious guy. Now, there's danger to swing to the other extreme - transhumanism and technofachism. That's when you start to plunge into some cargo-cult-ish thinking that people are "obsolete", "they're not needed anymore" and some funny stuff like "we don't need sex if we will be able to make children on factories". That dehumanized phase gave me serious existential crisis for two depressive years. But mow, with meditations learned (non-mystical of course) I feel such a freedom and content - it's even hard to describe! I don't need to hold on past or to listen to ANY moral authority - I an FREE. And then something magical happens - you find your own spirituality which has nothing to do with faith or mystical creatures. Whole life as it it - real life becomes deeply spiritual and deep.

[@CraigJudd]

Without the "benefit" of a religious upbringing, I pretty much reached the same conclusions by my early teens. In a rural high-school in the 1980's, this did not improve my popularity among my peers.

[@CaptainTae]

So without a religion, you still found dogma to espouse and feel oppressed for? KEEN!

[@alessandrovigano8149]

Popularity in many cases only means being good at aiming at the lowest common denominator. I doubt this can be of much consolation to your younger self, but there you go anyway

[@jhunt5578]

Good on ya 👍

[@liamvance966]

Awesome to see that you’re also on board :)

[@almasakic1148]

Hi, new subscriber here. I am an Agnostic Theist and while I can say I am more inclined to believe than to not, I find your videos extremely elucidating. Your video on the Devil was pure fire! I love Carl Sagan and will now go get his book Pale Blue Dot. Keep up the good work.

[@cipherklosenuf9242]

Hi Alma …What brings you to identify as Agnostic Theist? Having deconstructed from Christianity over many years, I admit I wish their were more Agnostic Christians. To me an Agnostic Christian is a person who esteems the Gospels and may practice some version of Christian community and ritual but just let’s God be God in the humble recognition that we don’t know and can’t reliably claim to know the supernatural and eternal dimensions which traditional Christianity has claimed to possess. But saying theist is more universalist so how does that work for you currently? Just curious, available if you’d like to chat. No hidden conversion agenda…😊 Cheers!

[@Yoctopory]

That's very intersting, I don't think I have met anybody who identified as an Agnpstic Theist. I would be very interested in knowing more about how you got to this perspective.

[@Snidbert]

My stance is that morality ought to be human-centric, not because humans are special, but because we are humans.

[@avivastudios2311]

We look out for our families and that is a moral thing to do.

[@Snidbert]

@@avivastudios2311 yeah basically

[@lucminax]

Yes! We really need to talk more about the ethical treatment of all animals. Your contribution is a joy to have ^^

[@MyNameIsChristBringsASword]

You need to focus on where you are going after you die. Enjoy the lake of fire Revelation 20:15 your suffering will be eternal. God wins.

[@gunnarroth2410]

@@MyNameIsChristBringsASword hell is made for Christians only, so enjoy.

[@bobross5716]

@@MyNameIsChristBringsASword if winning means most of your creation ends up in an eternal lake of fire, why would God want to win?

[@ryanolson2308]

@@MyNameIsChristBringsASword brainwashed much?

[@satishglad64]

@@MyNameIsChristBringsASword 🤦

[@azminur1446]

Dang im muslim myself and i dont know how i got here but i already watch a few of ur videos. Im subscribing cause ur vids are actually interest me. Keep up with ur hardwork, you just gain a new fan

[@nrlw-77777]

@Yamnihc Ebmilaw 😂😂

[@nightsheran]

@Yamnihc Ebmilaw yet u here...

[@TheSlyWeeb]

@Yamnihc Ebmilaw nah, in america we atheists control Satan 😈

[@Taha-Aamamou]

i advise u to follow subboor ahmad, mohammed hijab, The Muslim Skeptic channels, they have much better content for u as a muslim also here is a video of subboor ahmad refuting this idiot for his miserable attempt to project a bad image of Muslims kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3y8maGZrbqki5I

[@akiraimison3322]

@@Taha-Aamamou went and had a look at your suggested video, I saw emotionally charged mockery based on racial differences. No proper rebuttal or response.

[@CausaliDox]

I think it is highly commendable that you examined your own mind, emotions and convictions. To admit to having your mind changed by arguments or well-examined insights, or in fact to allow yourself exposure to these so openly is probably quite rare. I think there's likely a cultural component to the resistance of changing your mind as well. Personally, I have never felt the insights Sagan calls demotions as such. Interested in cosmology from a young age, I guess I intuited the infinitesimality of humanity, our planet, our solar system, even our galaxy. Exposure to psilocybine in my youth solidified and made viscerally palpable the notion that humans are living creatures, that are self-evidently part of the same continuum of life on this planet. Which alongside my interest in philosophy and cosmology, informed my morality and eventually led to half a lifespan of vegetarianism. Aside from the fact that, to paraphrase Chuck Palahniuk, on a long enough timeline nothing really matters, including morality, or any philosophical tenet, it is the -in my opinion- a priori moral imperative (whether it be rational, emotional or a combination of the both, no matter the order -elephant, rider-) that upon deep enough self-examination exists in most people, I believe, that, if we are able to free ourselves from the imposed, coerced, seduced masking of moral questions by society, family, culture, religion, politics, will compel most humans to behave compassionately and for lack of a better word, humanely. As for labels, I guess it's useful to use them to demarcate concepts, have a discussion and of course language is fun, but to me, when I think about myself in this context, I eschew labels, since I feel it is more useful to think what I think and feel what I feel, which meanders like a river, yet that river always flows in the same direction, than to define and narrow myself according to a definition. Congratulations on the video and your journey. I enjoyed listening to you.

[@donovanscabbia6770]

I love your videos. You are intelligent, well spoken, and informed. I to am a former believer who began to see faults in the Christian faith. It just doesn't add up. Keep the great work!👍💯

[@leepope3500]

By your title I was seriously going to complain about exactly what you mentioned later, a "narcissism over slight differences", but was instead blown away by your reasoning.

[@pomodorino1766]

Wellcome on board, I always liked your content and clarity, this is the cherry on top of the skeptic cake!

[@CaptainTae]

Confirmation bias is the best!

[@sm-zt4ut]

@@person737 yes

[@brenthernandez6910]

Morality comes from objectivity. Morals come from truth. Is it bad to be slow to anger, be patient, be kind, be peaceful, be righteous, be honest, be truthful, have self control, put the truth first, don't be arrogant, don't have pride, don't let money be your god, don't brag, don't say evil and mean things, don't lie, don't disobey your parents, don't be ungrateful, don't be unholy, love others, forgive people, don't gossip, don't be cruel, love what is good, love your friends, don't be reckless, don't be conceited, don't let pleasure and feeling good become your god. Is any of what I just listed considered bad?

[@saganandroid4175]

Nice to see I'm no longer the only sci-vegan. It's been lonely.

[@YehonasanWeisskoff]

Thank you so much for this video and for the links in the description, which have proven even more helpful than the original video itself. You are doing a great service to the public in creating this content and sharing these resources. My only moral concern with your video is that at the end of the video you say that you are OK with being called a humanist, but that for technical reasons you don't use that term, since you don't believe that human life is in categorically superior in some spiritual sense, but you acknowledge that in the vernacular use of the word "humanist," you could still be called a "humanist." Given this, I feel it is click-bait to name your video "Why I, as an Atheist, am no longer a humanist," since you aren't using the term "humanist" here in the typical sense of the word. This title is therefore misleading to consumers, like me, who thought that your video was going to be about why you rejected what most people refer to as humanism. I understand why you'd want to call the video something that sounds sensational, since you want to get people to click on it and listen till the end where you explain why you don't like to use the term "humanist" for technical reasons, but it is still misleading, and honesty in your advertising is a more important moral consideration than getting your message out (as ends do not justify the means), and certainly more important than profiting from the monetization of your video. I hope that you take my feedback into consideration when naming your videos in the future, and keep to a policy of strict honesty in choosing names. This video could still have garnered great interest if you just put the word "technically" in the title, so that it would not be misleading. You could fix this by just changing the name to: "Why I, as an Atheist, am no longer (technically) a humanist."

[@MarkWiseArt]

Thanks for a very interesting and thought provoking video.

[@_Allen_Holmes_]

Oh my god a few weeks ago I watched your video of answering personal questions with your wife and in there you mentioned Alex's video's on Veganism and I gave them a watch and had the same thought process and mental gymnastics to jump through! Today is 2 weeks vegan and I could not be more proud to have you join us too 💕

[@alfredogonzalez8735]

Amazing, ive been vegan for 4 years just make sure you eat enough calories!

[@luzidd7414]

@@alfredogonzalez8735 i'd add to that to make sure u don't overeat on the vegan junk food, i sure love it lol and calories alone don't make u stay healthy obviously, get them greens, fruits, berries, nuts beans etc. also: eating a balanced plant based diet is only part of veganism

[@arronjames1338]

Plant Lives Matter!!

[@_Allen_Holmes_]

@@arronjames1338 awww did I trigger you?

[@hossamtarek2272]

may peace, blessings, mercy of God be upon you. All praise be to god as it should for the majesty of his face. My beloved researcher, I am inviting you to know him, worship him alone, read his holy book (the Quran) , and check out the evidence of his existence. creator’s signs in the holy Quran more than 1440 years ago: scientific miracles (expansion of the universe and etc.…), historical miracles, metaphysical miracles, numerical miracles, linguistic miracles, arrangement miracles, the unmet challenge of bringing something like it, the preservation miracle, and others. The prophet of Islam, Muhammed (may blessing and mercy of God be upon him) miracles: the prophecies of his advent in the religions, the historical miracles performed by him that we knew by narrators, the scientific miracles In his sayings, the metaphysical miracles and knowing some things in the future by the knowledge of the creator, and others. Logical proofs: Religious comparisons, Issues in the religions except Islam, The superiority of Islam over other religions to guarantee rights and the survival of life, the innate of worshiping a god (mentioned in the Quran), the illiteracy of the prophet of Islam and the Benefits of saying that this Qur’an is from him, the perfection of our creation (mentioned in the Quran), and others found in the links below. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIDSfquEbbaVo5I www.islamreligion.com/en/articles For further information, don’t hesitate to reply. I ask our merciful God to guide your heart to the truth, enter you to heavens, and save you from the fire intended for non-believers who were arrogant to worship him! Thanks for reading😊.

[@laurenkadlec659]

Thank you. This is exactly what I’ve been going through. Dang. Now I have to stop ignoring my morality too

[@michaelrch]

If you feel like it, try challenge22.com They will give you practical advice and encouragement on how to take out animal based products out of your life. It feels much better when you know you aren't funding cruelty and environmental destruction every time you go to the store. The thing I hear most vegans say about their choice to go vegan is "damn, I wish I had done it sooner." Good luck 😀

[@67_GT_Kai]

Well thought out and disseminated. I was not familiar with Haidt but have the two books mentioned on order! Carl Sagan has been my personal hero since I was young. My son's name, is in fact, Sagan. Also, my 15 yr old daughter has been an ovo-lacto-pescatarian for two years now. I'm so proud of her. I have found myself eating much less meat since then due to varying reasons. My question is this: What is your reasoning behind ETHICAL veganism? Is it the suffering that happens in the process of raising meat/leather/milk animals? Is it ok to eat a cow that you cared for as a pet with love and kindness if her death was quick and painless? If we are not different than other animals except the way we view ourselves, why is it OK for a shark to tear apart seal lions in what must be a horrifically painful experience? I'm sure I'm missing salient points and will continue to research further. Also: our eggs are 100% from our own chickens which get better treatment than our dogs it seems. :)

[@bYtealiEnSzen]

Kudos to you... I'm 63 and it was a struggle... the fog lifted not too long ago. Emotional rationalization. I changed my name to nanohumanimalbyte 🙏 Agreed.

[@neller1995]

Really happy to see more and more of the secular community that brands itself on being rational start to consider the suffering of non-human animals. Good on you Drew 😃

[@saganandroid4175]

Long overdue.

[@liarwithagun]

Just give it a dozen decades till we can cheaply synthetically produce meat. Once people don't have skin in the game of meat, they'll turn and accept that we shouldn't eat animals.

[@momsberettas9576]

Fetus's are in the human circle and anyone who says they aren't are guilty of the fallacy's he illustrated in this video

[@Kaokidx10]

Me: "This is clickbait No way he's going backwards, it's gotta be veganism"

[@bariumselenided5152]

Thought the same thing lol

[@Mostlyharmless1985]

So he went backwards then...

[@bariumselenided5152]

Mostlyharmless1985 - In what way is veganism “backwards” from humanism?

[@rritobakdutta8730]

@@bariumselenided5152 It technically isn't backwards from humanism, but it certainly is backwards from human supremacy. I, for one, believe the latter. I shall be able to eat whatever I want unless it's a fellow human.

[@Mostlyharmless1985]

@@bariumselenided5152 so, if you follow the nonsense that follows your question, that’s why. Simply put, acknowledgment of a human as being an animal, acknowledging other animals as feeling beings, and failing to recognize humans as predators is a hat trick of stupid. No one gets angry at the lion for eating the gazelle, and humans are every bit as a lion. Sure you can live a half life without eating meat, but why should you deny your animal nature any more than any other creature? It’s a step away from Jainism, and every bit as ridiculous.

[@fuhaustinambe4934]

I had been a Christian for many years, but recently I came to realize through many triggers and reasoned out that, there is nothing making us special from other animals we differ just in DNA, and also believe in life after death, I don't know where I was before I was born and what makes me think after I die it will be any different. etc. Then I decided to drop my faith it wasn't useful to me any longer. When confronted about what I believed in I usually say a couple of sentences related to Humans, ethics, and being good to nature we have had the opportunity to leave in and making sure to leave it better than we found it. But recently, I stumbled across the word "Humanist" and looked up what it meant and it seemed to be a summary of what I currently believe in. From my point of view, humanism shares a common foundation with atheism (the absence of belief in the existence of deities) but projects a way of living as a human and identifying the capacity of being good without the fear of a deity. But I do get your point of humanism being central to humans.

[@McCaffreyPickleball]

HECK YESSSSS! New sub.

[@adderjack4604]

"Post-hoc reasoning" is a pretty good term for something I've been wrestling with in the last year: recognizing that I and others kind of seem to think and feel in an animalistic/instinctive level, but that we just rationalize ourselves after the fact. We, as humans, are bullshitters. Lol. We spin our thoughts and feelings to have greater complexity than they ever needed, and then we congratulate ourselves for that greater complexity.

[@slevinchannel7589]

Got some atheist-watch-suggests?

[@antoniomv9444]

@@slevinchannel7589 Veggietales XD

[@starfishsystems]

Well, it's understandable. Consciousness arrived very late for us in evolutionary terms, and reason still more recently. What's remarkable is not whether we can do these things well, it's that we can do them AT ALL. What we in fact do, for example in the case of abstract reasoning and its application, is consciously practice the operations until they become unconscious habits of thought. Then our conscious awareness of this ability more or less goes to sleep until some situation activates it, and this much is simply pattern recognition. We're then able to some extent to react logically, albeit unconsciously, until we hit something sufficiently complex that we have to begin putting it into narrative order. It's no wonder that it feels post hoc at this point. It's as if someone else has set up the problem and part of the solution and dumped it on us. But that "someone else" is just our unconscious mind working at reactive speed, not narrative speed. Given the limitations of our cognitive hardware, it's a pretty good trick, to train our minds in this way. It exploits pre-existing capabilities (such as conditioned response, introspection, possibly basic storytelling) to support something completely synthetic that we variously call consciousness or abstract reasoning or theory of mind. You're right that we rationalize after our minds are made up, and that we are bullshitters. This is absolutely to be expected. First of all, storytelling is in our nature, even before language, even in our dreams. Second, given our architecture, the rationalization phase has to come AFTER the pattern recognition phase in order for us to have any hope of validating our instant, necessarily unconscious and primitive, impression of a given situation. The two phases can't take place in parallel, because narration is an inherently serial rendering of the situation. So we're really doing quite well with what we've got. Finally, let's look at rationalization for a second. What's specifically the problem? It's that we're only superficially applying reason while serving our unconscious emotions and biases, all of which ends up not serving our rational, abstract, dispassionate goals. Why does this happen, when at some level we don't want it to? Our unconscious minds are active even while we're preoccupied with conscious activities such as narration, and this activity of course directs our attention to some degree. We often want it to, just not always. What's the solution? We already know the solution: practice consciously until the desired patterns of thinking become "second nature," unconscious habits of thought. Specifically, be strict about your reasoning whenever it's not emotionally expensive. Make it a constant practice, and please make a point of finding joy in it. Reason is beautiful, elegant, powerful, calming, confident... so it isn't intrinsically hard to associate it with joy. But it goes so much better when you intentionally do that it's worth calling out. Practice often with topics that are easy to be objective about, and try not to worry or loop over the ones that feel like they invoke rationalization. Just take a break from them whenever you can. It's also very helpful to work on mindfulness practice. This is so that you can observe phenomena, in particular your emotions, without getting caught up in them. You're present with your emotions, whatever comes up, just observing, not seizing onto them or pushing them away, not even narrating them to yourself. Just sitting quietly is a start. There's ample literature on the subject. The point is, through practice you become more conscious of your emotions, and then they won't UNCONSCIOUSLY have so much influence over your attentional process, the one that drives you toward certain biased lines of reasoning, unconscious defenses and other patterns. Meanwhile, your objective reasoning skills are being exercised and integrated so that if a truly bad rationalization breaks through, you'll be more apt to catch it as something not quite right, recognize the emotional field or belief that preceded it, and gently let it go. That too is practice. It's all practice, man. Then you die. But not today.

[@SenhorAlien]

@@starfishsystems great comment. Been trying to automate as much logic as I can to be a subconscious framework, to relieve burden on conscious thought for new things, but it really takes a while, and is hard.

[@Flackon]

Just as common, if not more so is the tendency for humans to over-simplify things. The world is incredibly rich, complex, and nuanced, but humans have a baseline tendency to find the most cognitively simple explanation that fits their needs or worldview, which often leads to missing out on important considerations

[@ericreeves1342]

So crazy to see you going through the same internal struggles and reaching the same conclusions I did years ago! Hope your time of people finding out you're vegan goes better than it did for me as it was worse than when people found out I wasn't religious any more. Different times and different people I suppose. Still, good luck my friend, keep up the great work and never stop trying to be a better person!

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

As a lifelong Texan and vegetarian for half a century, I deeply understand the similarities and differences between religious and dietary disagreements. While I have been threatened and had a manager try to fire me for religious differences, I have been publicly and loudly verbally attacked (and had my food taken and dumped) for my quiet failure to order a meat entree (or light up a cigarette back when that was the custom). Strange how so many people see any difference in choices as a vile assault on their choices and character.

[@TheCarlHammond]

@@kathryngeeslin9509 Hi, Kathryn. In my experience, which admittedly, is limited by a mere 74 years of living among people on this one particular planet, it would appear that smokers and meat eaters, and countless others, know they are making bad decisions when they light up or chow down, but if you do it with them then they have your approval and agreement, and in their own minds it diminishes or eliminates the harm. If you don't do those things, then you haven't given them your approval, and consequently they lash out at you for being the villain of the piece in order to minimize their own cognitive dissonance, which they are consciously and unconsciously creating a lot of for themselves. I say this as an armchair philosopher/psychologist, and this mythological armchair is located in a cave deep underground where the entrance is blocked by rubble and where no light nor fresh air can enter. Please keep that in mind if and when you are evaluating the dubious worth of my comment.

[@marcdes6316]

When I learned I'm not really that special, that's when I became so free to explore the world, unburden by the need to keep up with my illusion of self-grandeur

[@SenorFlake]

Saw CosmicSkeptic go back on this, I really hope you don't.

[@blackswan8653]

When it comes to human to human interaction, I'm a humanist. When it comes to what's more important, I side with the habitats. The plants are important, the environment is very important, the animals are very important, but each organism is important because they all need each other. Habitat destruction is the ultimate evil because it ruins the land for all of the organisms that need the balance.

[@fozzsr]

Even the human omnivore that I am can get behind that. 👍

[@panulli4]

Just out of curiosity: Are you vegan?

[@panulli4]

​@@fozzsr Do you mean carnist when you use the term omnivore? Omnivore is just a biological term. After all also vegans could consider themselves omnivores. ;-)

[@fozzsr]

@@panulli4 i mean omnivore because I know what omnivore means: meat and plant. Carnist is not a thing as far as I know. Do you also believe that a humanist eats humans? 😄

[@panulli4]

@@fozzsr Thanks for the reply! haha Of course I wasn't too serious about my comment. But just to be clear: There actually is a resaonable distinction to be made between omnivores and carnists - just as between herbivores and vegans. One is the biological term and the other is a philosophical attitude.

[@Pub2k4]

I love getting all these “PureFlix” ads in all my favorite atheist creators’ videos.

[@lunawolfheart336]

I get those in athiest and pagan vids I watch it's really funny like bro your not converting me

[@bryanaperry8760]

Same. I am like YES get that Christian AdSense.

[@oyblech8671]

I've stopped counting the times one of these videos started off with "shalom, friend". if they knew anything about anything they'd realise we are as far from their target audience as can be.

[@suchnothing]

@i o You can be pagan and also an atheist. All atheism is, is a rejection of the idea that a God or gods created the universe. Many pagan religions or ideologies don't have a creator deity.

[@irrelevant_noob]

or one can also just WATCH pagan (or even christian) videos without being convinced that they're true in any meaningful way. :-)

[@SartorialDragon]

13:55 This sentence needs to be emphasized: WE ARE ALLIES ON MOST THINGS. This goes for so many things.

[@kolumbus1754]

I am so glad that i came back to your channel. It takes a great mentality to come back from that angry dissonant state of mind. I thoroughly enjoy your eloquent way of speaking

[@ravalili]

At first I was so mad that I had to be vegan, but soon realized that I couldn't live a live where my value and my act where not coherent anymore. That dissonance made me so depressed for a will and the day I went vegan a huge weight came off my shoulders.

[@jacewright6428]

Yeah I don't know why I was so resistant to the idea when I was 14. Resisting the compassionate instinct for 6 years was the worst decision I ever made, finally going vegan was the best.

[@bjwwag]

I don’t understand this thought process if we are just animals. Don’t animals or predators exploit other animals for food and show no compassion or consideration. Have you seen what happens when a weasel gets into a chicken coop. If animals have no consideration why should we if it helps us survive ( not talking about abusing resources.)

[@jacewright6428]

@@bjwwag abusing resources and causing mass destruction is what humanity currently does to get animal products. If we have special abilities above other animals we should show it by developing our compassion. If we are more intelligent then we can make a better system

[@bjwwag]

I guess the video to me and your point seems contradictory to itself. He admits we are not special and are just animals but then goes on to try and show compassion to animals when animals themselves do not show compassion, but then says because we are smarter we should show compassion. The fact that you are even conflicted with this instead of just running on instinct and survival shows that you are special. By the way there is a way to sustainably eat animals but I don’t think a lot of people are aware of it. Also even if the only way to eat animals was to raise and process them in a way you would consider unethical but sustainable to the environment, which is very possible if you do a little research, why should that matter when animals themselves do not express this same concern. Trying to be logically consistent here, obviously abusing resources until they no longer exist is not helping us survive but to bring in compassion into the equation does not seem logical. I guess I separate compassion vs smarts. You can argue that compassion makes us smarter or vice versa but eventually compassion will lead to a decision that will not help you strictly survive. Sorry I may have stated the same point in 2 different ways my bad :).

[@ravalili]

@@bjwwagyou talk about surviving and its probably what seperate us from animal. We have have past the point of surviving, we have time to develope science, art and dream of traveling the univers. So now we can expand on what we want to be as a speacie, compasion might be a part of it.

[@ObjectivelyDan]

Proud of you bud

[@CaptainTae]

ONE OF US ONE OF US WEEBLE WOBBLE

[@tuneboyz5634]

@@CaptainTae wtf

[@pastillascelestes4768]

Dan you are vegan too?? Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[@bariumselenided5152]

Taylor Johns - Dan here said he was proud of someone challenging his own preconceptions and having the integrity to follow his reason in spite of his wants. You, in response and antagonism, said “weeble wobble” . Are you trying to look like a joke? Cuz ya look like a joke, my guy.

[@CaptainTae]

@@bariumselenided5152 Oh no!!! A cult member thinks I look like a joke! He’s showing me how toxic he isn’t! It’s SO DIFFERENT WHEN HE DOES IT! Lmao.

[@pj3998]

Subbed from this video, thank you,

[@joshmax3158]

Great video!!!

[@livinglifeleona]

It's such a pleasure to join your mind as it connects dots from A to Z. Thank you for giving us something new to ponder, and so eloquently.

[@momsberettas9576]

Fetus's are in the human circle and anyone who says they aren't are guilty of the fallacy's he illustrated in this video

[@MrSterlinglinford]

Just need to get rationality rules and then all the smart independent youtubers I listen to will have joined my club.

[@samvandervelden8243]

I think that he is a vegetarian who still wants to get rid of dairy and eggs but I don't know for sure you can watch the video of him with vegan gains and cosmicskeptic

[@rodshop5897]

" will have joined my club." Which club is that? Can anyone join?

[@andyTONYpandy]

Very good video, so this compelled me to comment on one of your videos for the first time. I consider myself a humanist and although I'm not sure there is an agreed definition for humanism I completely agree why you don't fall under the category (strictly speaking) whilst I do. For me humanism is not a view that humans are superior or the figurative centre of the universe but rather that "humans are good" as opposed to neutral or at least capable of being a force for good. See, as an atheist you could say that all animals are here by chance, made of the same stuff and that we aren't special at all, but I would say that the internet, medicine, scientific discoveries, poetry and cinema are special. I know that's a human-centric way of looking at it but that's kinda my point. Humanists believe that humans are responsible for the good (and bad) in our own human world, not God. If not from God where do our morals come from? Well, they have developed because as a species it benefitted us to have culture and social structure. We evolved morals, I believe, because it helped us to survive and procreate. Therefore our morals are engineered to continue our genes and our species, not other animals. I get that is quite controversial but given that all ethics are subjective, the only way to logically (coldly I know) draw an ethical line is to assess the impact of a decision on our 'fellow group members'. For me that group is extended to all humanity but not our closest ape cousins. All of this is not to say that there is no moral argument against cruelty to animals. I suspect our love for animals is also advantageous and someone who wilfully hurts an animal is capable of cruelty to other people. Also, veganism may be needed to save our planet. But I can not put any non-human animal before a person. I know that not all humanists would agree with me.

[@LexiBethH]

As a Christian pacifist and vegetarian, i agree with you completely and share almost the same perspective! it was very refreshing to see someone have almost the identical thought process as me (:

[@eklein89]

Andrew, Excellent and considerate comment; I agree with most of it. However, your argument that our ethics should only concern fellow humans seems to be flawed. By this logic, are you against laws that protect our dogs and cats? Laws that ban whaling off the U.S. coast? Laws that protect our endangered species? Laws protecting dogs from being trapped in hot cars? Laws that ban importation of elephant trophies? If you support any of those laws, as nearly all people do, then you admit that our ethics must not only pertain to ourselves, but to other sentient beings as well. And as you mentioned, veganism may be needed to save the planet. Increasingly, this is the conclusion drawn by many think tanks and environmental organizations. What isn't as well-known is that eating animals is antithetical to caring for our "fellow group members." Because of all the food needed to fatten livestock, the vast majority of the worlds agricultural land is used for growing this feed. This land could instead be used to grow food for our fellow starving humans. I believe the statistic is that enough grain is grown every day for each person on earth 8 loaves of bread. Yet we grow this food to feed livestock so that rich westerners can eat steak. It's a crime.

[@andyTONYpandy]

​@@eklein89 No I'm not against those laws. As I already said, there is a logic to the ethical treatment of animals. And even without logic, I'm instinctively against sport hunting, doing harm to our environment and being cruel but that does not mean I think of non-human animals as our equivalent. Many of the examples you make are quite easy to come down on, but I can give some where 'nearly all people' will not be able to make a decision. For instance, if you have a pest problem in your house, most people will say you are entitled to kill the animals but more people will object to killing mice than cockroaches. I don't believe that you can draw a line ethically based on animals cuteness, intelligence or relation to us. Why should an intelligent species be entitled to more rights than a species that has been around for millennia. I'm not by the way accusing you of this hypocrisy. But I make the point because I believe all humans and only humans should have human rights. All animals should be protected from unnecessary cruelty but not at the cost of human suffering. So I justify medical testing on animals. Regarding the livestock situation. I really can't argue with you. I eat animals but I should eat less. I can't justify the meat industry, which is held up purely for economic reasons and needs to change.

[@Elvalley]

@@eklein89 I think your last paragraph sums up perfectly how an ethical perspective centered around humans could still end up making a case for protecting other animals, so I guess that's enough of a counter argument to your own objection, if not a completely invalidating one I admit. I think your case about, let's call it "pet exceptionalism" does merit some serious consideration though. After all, Andrew's thesis hinges on a vision for our ethics as merely an extension and elaboration of our own instincts, rather than a reasoned (and reason-able) set of guidelines, which circles back to the whole "elephant and rider" dilemma... However, since I suspect "reason" suffers from a fatal incompleteness that makes it imperfect even in a theoretical best case, I'm not all that conflicted about the potential contradictions.

[@eklein89]

​@@andyTONYpandy We do not need to think of non-human animals as our equivalent. By using that phrasing, a false dichotomy is created. It goes..... "Are animals our moral equivalent? No. So that means I can do to them whatever I please." We can believe that animals are somehow "less" than us without enslaving and torturing them. We can let them be. For animals that are negatively impacting one's quality of life, an argument can be made for taking their life. Even so, this should be done with care. There are humane catch- and release mouse traps. Or, bugs can be squashed completely instead of being left to suffer for days in a glue trap. This all falls under the domain of not inflicting cruelty unnecessarily. "Human rights" is a made-up concept, of course, but I support the efforts to implement and safeguard them. Animal rights activists are not trying to extend these rights to animals. No one expects an animal to hold religious beliefs, join unions, or vote. However, animals should be afforded one right: the right to not be treated as property. Kudos for re-evaluating the way you eat. As hundreds of millions of people around the world can attest, we can easily survive and thrive on a vegan diet. In fact, nutrition research is increasingly coming to that conclusion. My issues with medical testing are both logistical and philosophical. For the sake of time I'll just write my thoughts on the philosophical objections: "Why do we test on animals?" "Because they are so much like us. Their bodies and reactions can teach us so much about ourselves." "Well, if they are so similar to us, then isn't what we do tremendously cruel? Burning, crushing, bruising, drowning, severing spinal cords, paralyzing, injecting viruses, causing cancers, separating babies from mothers, keeping social animals in isolation, providing nothing but a steel cage scarcely larger than the animal?" "Oh that isn't cruel, animals are nothing like us" As we know from study of philosophy, something cannot simultaneously BE and NOT BE. Animals are either similar to us in the ability to feel psychological and physical pain, and what we do is tremendously cruel. OR they are so dissimilar to us, and such research is an utter waste of time. It isn't both. Thanks for the respectful conversation, btw :)

[@kylanvelpa3790]

I don't use a label for myself beyond Atheist, but I feel the exact same way and am working towards veganism myself

[@jacewright6428]

Thank you for working towards veganism! You can do it!

[@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094]

When I went vegan several years ago i had no idea it would be so easy - i had no idea that there were tons of vegan options everywhere now :) if you live anywhere near a supermarket it should be a cinch ^_^

[@hazelsunderstood6784]

My literal first "wtf" moment in church was when the lady told us kids that "animals don't have souls, that's why it's okay to eat them" Basically God created animals to be food. I had a pet, watches animal planet, and still ate meat. But even as a child I recognized that animals and humans both have all the emotions, reasoning, group/solitary behaviors (including morals/lack their of), and could be smart/dumb. The reason I had a hard time not eating meat is because you don't see the suffering so you don't know too much of the suffering. Not an excuse anymore tho.

[@saganandroid4175]

You're vegan now? (y)

[@mcgheebentle1958]

Animals don’t have reasoning though. They make choices, yes, but those choices are primarily informed by survival or hormonal instincts, classical or operant conditioning, or a combination of instinct and conditioning. Human logic is a lot more nuanced. Sure, our motivations include instinct and conditioning as well, but also encapsulate deduction, induction, and a distinctly human perception of self-awareness that animals lack. I’m not addressing your other points, nothing more and nothing less than just saying that the point on animals having logic is a shaky one at best, and you’d need to have more of a robust definition of logic, if that makes sense.

[@matthewdancz9152]

Morality does not have an central objective basis. Plants are just as alive as animals, why draw an arbitrary line about what can be eaten?

[@sridevikanduri654]

@@matthewdancz9152 Hi! The ethical reasoning behind veganism is not necessarily just whether something is alive, but whether a being has a central nervous system and is able to experience pain/suffering/love/excitement etc... I do think it's good that you are considering plants though. Even when we look at it from that view, most of the plants that humans grow is to feed and raise several billion animals for years before they get slaughtered for meat. As counterintuitive as it may sound at first, eating fewer/no animal products uses much fewer plants, uses drastically less water, produces less waste, and reduces carbon footprint. In animal agriculture, the tradeoff is between cruel (factory farming, cruel but efficient and profitable) and completely unsustainable (grass-fed animals). Sry to go off on the tangent, but just considering ethics, it is about the sentience and ability to suffer and feel pain rather than simply responding to stimuli like plants.

[@jhunt5578]

Is that even the case in the bible? Literally on the first page Genesis 1:29 God gives humanity plants for food. Its only later after the flood that animals are even granted by God as okay for food. So the notion that animals were made for the purpose of being eaten doesn't even follow. And later in Isaiah's prophecy of the new earth all animals return to living off plants as in Eden. Wolves sleep alongside lambs, lions eat hay like the ox, and the knowledge of the holy mountain flows through all the waters of the earth blah blah blah.

[@almondmagnum8604]

I'll consider it when flies and mosquito come to the negotiating table. In the meantime, it's war.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

And imported fire ants. Never forget imported fire ants.

[@atashgallagher1631]

I don't give a fuck how capable of suffering rats are, when they stop eating my plumbing I'll consider stopping feeding them neurotoxins and using cats as weapons of mass destruction. the cats and neurotoxin are used separately.

[@andrewharper1609]

Let's not forget bedbugs.

[@NairobyMS]

I mean i'm vegan but I still kill mosquitoes, don't wanna get zika or dengue (again)

[@dude124]

Don't forget the wasps

[@dillon6968]

I am very curious about your thoughts on how engineering is generally based on intuition, which we then back up by formulae that follow from that intuition and agree with observable phenomenon and are experimentally provable. Just a thought.

[@WilliamWyche]

That was very thought provoking.

[@lazypotatoes9844]

I remember as a child i often thought humans were animals and every time i said so people would always say im wrong and give a poor excuse why we arent animals. I always thought it was a unique thought that i had glad to see that im not the only one

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@Joe dirty71 Nah, those that say others are dumb for arguing about Semantics are dumb. And childish.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@Joe dirty71 Imagine being such a little chil dyou come here and randomly insult-around.

[@clawthe]

@@loturzelrestaurant but you just said others are dumb

[@ahuman5772]

Biologically humans are animals. It's a weird christian mindset that seperates us

[@anewagora]

The fact that humans are animals is pretty straightforward, and I wonder what leads a person to believe otherwise. It's almost like saying we're not alive. Very unsettling.

[@Danny-kk4nj]

I'm loving this trend of atheists becoming vegans, I hope it keeps going

[@isabelamuzzi3096]

me too! I did the opposite though 😂 I became vegan in 2019 and atheist now in 2021

[@poctordepper4269]

Hopefully Christians get in on the trend soon, gotta have our priorities straight.

[@Espaceespace9]

I became atheist and a few month later vegan, both in 2020 ^^

[@PopCultureFan_]

Just trading in animal rights instead of religous rights ( Both equally annoying) and majority havr extremist views, but anyways hope he sees the paralels, becuase therr are many🤔 and i csnt believe he joined this group., its not compatable at all. Veganism ruined my life, and sorry it is not sustable, it is also one big fat lie. But anyways he'll find out in a few years when his health begings to fail like mine did, and no amount of vagetables or special powder helped!. My eyeballs and skin started turnig yellow & i developed sever under eye circles so bad that people thought id been punched i the eyes, i had memor problems, i couldnt talk or form words it was really bad after 5 years. I was severly malnourished....but too stubborn too to stop bc of the BS lie veganism was telling me. I should have stoped that first week of giong vegetarian even, then i started getting severe brain fog , i chocked it up to nothing becuase i was fed a lie (I assumed it was detoxying my body 'detoxying is another lie they tellyou), truth is i was freaken killing myself and my brain slowly, depriving it of essential vitmains from not eating fish. Oh i forgot also.. i was even more paler than ussualy and i became tired all the time. I am sorry but we obviously need dairy, and meats to survive, there is nothing healthy or natural about getting the things we need from pill bottles also theyre plastic mind you, how is that helping?, and the first thing they tell vegans is to take b12 in pillform since they dont eat meat. I was lacking most of the essentials, B12 Iron K and D, and D you get from Milk! There is K1 in alot of green but it is not easily absorbed , K2 is easily obsorbed and only found it meats. Iron and b12 is found plentifull in meats too. Yummy yummy meats!. Btw and another pie they say is that once you go ex vegan meat is supposed to taste horrible, well thats 100 percent not true. The first week i went off i raided the fridge of all delimeat. I am still suffering with the ill effects 10 years after. He'll learn long enought..

[@k1a9l9i2]

Same!

[@drumpfisidiot5021]

Good content, great insight

[@artimusclydefrog]

was this before or after you started to accept determinism? Im curious because the "lawyer riding the elephant" is such a perfect description of our awareness - all of our "choices" are just post-hoc rationalizations of the actions we took, dreamt up by our "consciousness" in an attempt to fool ourselves into thinking we could have taken any other action than the one we took. Basically we are aware that other outcomes were possible, had the chaotic elements which guide determinism played out slightly differently, and we tell ourselves that it was some decision we made which caused the outcome that occured