Pronate on ALL Serves - Tennis Lessons and Instruction - Slice, Kick and Flat!

[@donnysworld6774]

Ian touched at it near the end of this clip, that you should pronate on overheads too. When I made this simple change, my overhead went from wimpy to fearful. It sounds like a cannon and it is now a reliable kill shot.

[@EssentialTennis]

Awesome, so happy to hear that, Don!

[@lineudpaula]

This video dramatically changed my serve and of course my whole game. I'm a better player now! Thanks Ian.

[@mukeshjoon7594]

Nice and clear message....pronation...is important part

[@Ernesto020879]

Very very nice footage !!

[@johnny6148]

correct i finally learned to pronate and my serve has become a winner. the harder I hit and the better i pronate the more the serve goes in the box!!

[@jackhayes2583]

️Thank Ian! Just now learning pronation and this video helped for the understanding of it

[@EssentialTennis]

Awesome, good to hear!

[@clintonsylvester1846]

Great video excellent illustration.

[@libraoct02]

superb instructions Ian. only proves that to be a good coach one doesnt have to be older. congrats Ian!

[@michaellin7594]

You’ve convinced me to always apply pronation. Thanks!

[@dkangan]

This video certainly makes your point, as does your video with Federer et al. making slice serves, each showing that shoulder rotation.

[@cecelyholliday7170]

Great demonstration and I loved the video - it showed the pronation very well. It worked so well when I practiced "neutral" to pronation - sort of a high five motion.

[@EssentialTennis]

Good to hear, Cecely!

[@garywojcik9184]

excellent info for more clear understanding of the serve motion

[@rolandocimafranca9955]

This video helps me a lot as a beginner in Tennis

[@michaelperine2780]

You are absolutely right, as usual. I tried not pronating on the kick serve (advice from another tennis site), but adding a large amount of ulnar deviation. Ulnar deviation without pronation hurts and would likely result in wrist surgery. Ouch!

[@aca99da]

Thanks Ian that's a great video, I too had been under the impression that pronation was only for certain serve types. You mentioned in your video that discussing how pronation varies for each serve type would need to be a whole separate video. Well if you get chance I would definitely appreciate seeing a video on that topic - since introducing pronation to my service action a few weeks ago, the vast majority are unintentionally ending up being flat serves to a right-hander's backhand if that makes sense!

[@EssentialTennis]

aca99da Glad this was helpful. Thanks for watching!

[@ericwilson9828]

I don't know what Ian's playing background is (satellite? Collegians? Tour?) and I don't care. Probably the best instructor on KZbin. ***** rating!

[@ericwilson9828]

Five star rating!

[@EssentialTennis]

I appreciate that very much, Eric. Thanks for the kind words.

[@mariaagostinadebelle4868]

IAN YOU ARE GREAT!!! THANK you FOR your videos!

[@HH-ry2zn]

Excellent review. I shared with my son and some juniors I coach at times.

[@sheilas8969]

You are an awesome teacher. Really enjoyed your instructional videos.

[@PetSKi67]

Good mannekin! Biggest difference between a low level serve is the lacking forearm supination in the racket drop. And shoulder inward rotation, which is missing on waiters tray and most other low level serves. And as a result the arm only ”swings” forward in a low level serve without delivering a whip-like motion thru the arm into the racket.

[@66gattaca]

Excellent video as ever, Ian, can't wait get on court tomorrow and ensure I'm doing it!

[@lloydstuart7862]

Hello thank you so much for this video. This is all new to me as adult player returning to the game. I'm going to practice this!

[@danc4592]

Another great video, thanks! When I was an avid player, I read "Tennis for the Future" by Vic Braden (printed in 1977). While his multiple exposure photos gave me a clue, they were nothing like the 240 fps video you present. Awesome!

[@sautante]

Could you go over the 3 serves and when you should use them? The grips and what it'll look like on the court?

[@MECEstrategist]

Hello Ian! Thank you for your tips and advices. I've watched all of your videos but I am afraid that I could not find specific difference of slice, kick, and flat serve. Please teach us how to do kick and slice serve in more detail. Thank you!

[@ian22k]

Great video ! Actually, all your videos are great! They are helping me out immensely while my instructor is out of town, and giving me a lot to think about when off the court as well. From one Ian to another, thank you!

[@EssentialTennis]

ian22k Thank you for the feedback, Ian. I appreciate it very much!

[@TheByrnedb]

Good explanation Ian - Seems like our NATURAL follow through , (right handed server), is a 11:00 to 1:00 motion with the follow through coming down to the left of our side (right handed server). Developing the kick serve seems a little arkward going against our natural body momentum....follow through but over and out to the right to get the ball to kic??. Could use more drills on this unusual motion. HIT UP AND OUT?????

[@Netherminde]

Huge video. I just discovered Forearm pronation last night. Why did no one tell my about this? I also fell into the myth of hitting the slice serve coming around the other way on the ball. Pronation on the overhead is another great point. Time to rework my serve with true technique.

[@EssentialTennis]

Netherminde I'm so happy to hear that this video showed you the light!

[@mohamadzakaria96]

That's really useful. Thanks very very much!

[@prashanthm6477]

Hi Ian.. i do alot of slice serve.. and pretty much imitate serena williams.. where she doesnt pronate as u suggest.. could u pls provide ur insights on that.. thanks..

[@11comfortablynumb]

Just as follow-up, found a couple videos of Sharapova for you Maria Sharapova Slow Motion Service Action (no pronation on 1st shot, some on the 2-nd) Maria Sharapova Slow Motion 1st Serve, Forehand & Backhand 240FPS Cincinnati 2014

[@11comfortablynumb]

Please have a look at Andre ... He often stopped his arm's pronation after contact (not always though) Andre Agassi Slow Motion Tennis Serve - Wimbledon Nike Challenge Court Swing Mechanics Drills Tips So does Sharapova on her second serve - roughly half of time she rotates palm to the right after contact, but the other half stops about palm down position These two come to mind immediately. I am sure one could find quite a few others with time and effort

[@whatguna]

Slice serve also needs the pronation! It is very interesting. Thank you for your excellent video.

[@EssentialTennis]

FHA- hand You're welcome :-)

[@sandeepramesh5724]

Much needed thank you so much!

[@EssentialTennis]

You're very welcome, Sandeep!

[@neilhay1045]

Love the videos. I am a fifty year learning the game after being a state grade squash player. The biomechanics information is excellent. Could I ask you to do a video in where the racket face faces during a one handed backhand. Cheers.

[@EssentialTennis]

Neil Hay Glad to help, Neil. I'll do my best to fit that request in!

[@ericwilson7016]

This is the finest ****ing instruction online

[@maxwelldewinter]

I wish on your service videos you would show what side the racquet is finishing on. It would be helpful!

[@ronaldaramaki8445]

Hi Ian. Thanks for the great video showing all serves use pronation. I know it was beyond your point of showing pronation, but do you have in mind a follow up video showing the TIMING of pronation for flat, slice, and kick serves? The moment when the racquet goes from edge to strings at contact. A reverse angle from the receiver's perspective would help to show the ball path after the bounce. Love your insightful videos.

[@EssentialTennis]

Ronald Aramaki Interesting idea to show it from the returner's perspective. I'll definitely keep that idea in mind for future videos!

[@briankelly7104]

jeff salzenstein has a demo on the kick serve that shows something quite different than pronation on top spin serve. The hitting face of the racquet is actually facing him on the follow through, where as with pronation it would be the back side of the racket.facing him. All other details are the same.

[@Iny0urwalls]

Brian Kelly I have not seen the video, but I support Ian's position that all tennis pro's pronate on their serves... I too noticed that the hitting face of the racket faces the server after they hit the ball. If you look carefully in slo-mo you'll see that after pronation they supinate and fold their forearm resulting in the hitting face of the racket facing the server.... the backside of the racket never faces the pro server on the pronation follow through..

[@Jazzcodes]

Brilliant and very useful, as always! Many thanks Ian!

[@EssentialTennis]

Jazzcodes You're very welcome.

[@dantheman1337]

Always great videos. Thank you Ian

[@ericselstad8257]

Great video!!

[@bonhamhouse1169]

Spot on! Great stuff.

[@RVick-ws1xu]

It appears to me the pronation occurs after contact for the spin serves (kick & slice) but pronation at contact for the flat or power serve. Not disputing that pronation occurs on all serves but the timing of it in relation to contact. Consider the skip the rock drill for spin which highlights ulnar deviation portion of this movement for slice.

[@Piggy123407]

Do you have any video to show the contact points of different servers? I desperately need it.

[@obaidfarghani9202]

Loved it

[@fernando.leardini]

Ian, first of all, great videos and instructions! Everytime I have a bit of a free time, I like to watch your videos to try to make make tennis play better. Thanks for all your help! What I would like to ask is exactly the differences between the techniques of the flat, slice and kick serves. Do you already have a video talking about that? I never know exactly what I should do differently from one to another. Is it the toss? The contact point? The racket head path? You name it. Again, thank you very much and congratulations for your great work!

[@EssentialTennis]

Thanks for the feedback, Fernando. I appreciate it! Toss and contact point are generally different, but they don't necessarily have to be (with the exception of a true kick serve). The biggest difference by far is racquet path. The direction that the racquet moves past (or through) the ball as contact is made. I show the differences step by step in the bonus included in this course: www.essentialtennis.com/max-serve-acceleration-2

[@fernandobernadmarrase3933]

Essential Tennis - Lessons and Instruction for Passionate Players

[@fernando.leardini]

Thank you very much! I will certainly check out the link you sent as soon as possible. Best regards!

[@alexacuna1650]

thank you very helpful..

[@binh.2598]

What about serve on the deuce side? It is more difficult to slice wide and do pronation on the deuce side.

[@suresh9118]

Hi Ian, can you please tell me if the racquet drop is the same on all the three serves ? Thank you for such precise instructional videos.

[@dorothys7891]

I supinate on my slice serve and finish with my palm facing up and I have a good slice serve

[@EssentialTennis]

Do you have a video?

[@James100707]

That was very helpful. Thank you. Would you make a similar video on forehand stroke please. If coming on edge or any kind of pronation etc or not at all :)

[@EssentialTennis]

James100707 Great topic suggestion, maybe I'll do that topic soon :-)

[@MJSTennis]

Another excellent video, Ian. I notice you talk about "forearm" pronation and not "wrist" pronation. Would you say that the wrist is locked during pronation? I've read before that Vic Braden said one could serve at their full power with their wrist in a cast. Thank you.

[@EssentialTennis]

MJSTennis I don't think the wrist can rotate right and left independent of the forearm.....

[@ytrzx]

This is an interesting topic. And despite I am true amateur player, I dare to come with bit of an different idea: You don't have to focus on pronating the hand, if you are using right grip during your serve and you have a correct follow trough finish after the hit. It will just happen because of how human joints (elbow specifically) works. But if you do not pronate your hand - it is a symptom, not a root cause. A signal that you need to revise whole your serve most likely. Just imagine - your hand holding the racket is coming from the behind of your body - from elbow-bend position to the elbow-stretched position. But does not stop there - after point of contact, it continues in the follow up - but not your whole arm if you do follow up well, mostly just from the elbow. So elbow needs to get bended again, but to the opposite direction. And because elbow can be bended just to one direction, to other one it would crash your bones. Pronation will happen automatically. I hope it made some sense and I will be happy in feedback from others.

[@EssentialTennis]

It does make sense and I would say that the majority of the time it is correct: when somebody uses the right grip they also pronate. I wouldn't say that its automatic or "natural", however because I've seen plenty of examples of players who have a continental grip but still go to a waiter tray position and push the ball over instead of snapping the racquet head. Unfortunately it isn't as simple as just putting somebody in the right grip and having everything else magically fall in place. It doesn't work that way in real life.

[@gustafonciu]

nice video! what about murrays serve? does he pronate that much?

[@EssentialTennis]

+Gustavo Escorza true, but still pronates. It's almost bio-mechanically impossible not to, to some degree

[@niltoncosta9707]

thanks

[@tarunkumarreddy8295]

Hi Ian.Thanks for this video which helped me a lot.But I am facing a problem here.When I am pronating after the contact,I feel a jerk in my shoulder movement and it is getting painful over time so as a result I am not able to pronate fully.It would be great if u can suggest something for this. Thankyou

[@phanikumar6637]

great videos, Can you make the pdf with images you showed on 3 serves similar to slice.pdf ; so can you make other 2 flat.pdf, kick.pdf with Tim's Images and instructions similar to slice.pdf with 6 pics with simple instructions. Thank You

[@y2washere]

Would this be the same motion in the wrist for leftys?

[@EssentialTennis]

Yes, but in the opposite direction!

[@itry2brational]

Its worked for me. :)

[@dan8350]

of course that i like it, thanks i hope learn together

[@nvda2damoon]

pronation is never a yes/no question. rather it's a question of how much, and timing. if you have zero pronation the follow thru will break your wrist so it's biomechanically impossible. bottom line is the slice/kick just has less pronation, and later in the follow thru... especially visible in Tim's kick where the racket faces the back fence at the end of the follow thru, compared to the racket facing the right fence for the flat.. the slice is somewhere in between.

[@FYProduction]

Interesting. Most likely, we are describing the same thing, but how the sensation is explained differs from yours. Grazing the ball, to me is to delay the pronation while remaining body sideway longer. To me, it is not the same as carving/peeling the ball. Also, earlier pronation results a flatter ball. However, it's the end result that what counts & never lie. Still, what's the typical angles for pros, between racquet & forearm, after pronation & at contact? 45 degrees?

[@FairwayJack]

Ian...for a flat serve do you hit the middle of ball and pronate across to 7 o'clock ??...or just power thru and pronate after ball is gone ?? ...Thx!!

[@dkangan]

***** That's right on the money. You have to be like 6' 9" to be able to hit a ball on a straight line trajectory that clears the net and lands in the service box. All serves must have some measure of spin to bring them down, unless they are slow enough for gravity to do the job.

[@vikhattangady]

Hi Ian, Great video, and great research. Do you happen to have shots of a right handed server serving a slice serve from the duece court to the corner away from the T? this is the serve where I feel that my hand does not pronate. Instead, it feels like my hand turns inwards to try and create the angle and some extra spin so the ball curves further to the outside of the court. I also have a similar serve from the ad court serving to the T, where rotating my hand inwards makes the ball curve towards my left, therefore moving away from the receiver. Not sure if my serve is wrong, but it does give me an edge when I'm playing. Would appreciate some feedback on this. Thanks

[@quinby123]

Tim S. is a pretty good player. I saw him beat some very good players at futures tournament as an 18yr old.

[@sanjaykietme1]

does pronation help in getting the ball fall in the service box at max speed?

[@Smudge1260]

Ian: This is a really excellent video!! Thank you for sharing. I was wondering about the slice serve pronation.

[@EssentialTennis]

Smudge1260 You're very welcome! More on the slice and pronation soon.

[@sandynkl66]

is it necessary to pronate on slice and kick serve coz the pronation seems to be forced?

[@michaelyau9760]

Do the flat and slice serve have a similar ball toss regardless of the target you want to hit? And for the topspin serve, it goes above the head.

[@DarkoIlic]

Excellent

[@samer4k]

I find my self playing at my best level just before the strings get broken. does this mean I should string my racket at very low tension so I loose the power or I should buy stiff strings that feels dead? I like to swing very fast. I use Wilson 90 Sq.in racket. and if i do so will this affect my serve speed?

[@billthestinker]

please see Serena Williams slice serve looks like no pronation Is it possible to hit slice serve with no pronation?

[@EssentialTennis]

billthestinker Not true, she pronates. The video you've seen is incorrect. Yes, it's possible to hit slice with no pronation, but not a good one.

[@jyotsnasharma9797]

Excellent Video. I'm the beginners level player. I'm how to do proper serve. I do flat serve. I'll try to learn Slice serve too.

[@jimmyzbike]

great video! you just sent me back out to the courts!

[@EssentialTennis]

Jimmy Coffill Good to hear :-)

[@LeaveAsItIs]

but the pronation in slice serve happens well after the slice. So no impact to the ball from pronation isn't it in the slice serve case? Pronation can not happen along with slice, as pronation makes the racquet direction against the direction needed for slice.

[@bosiljkakostic3]

I am right handed, and when I serve I approach to the ball from right side to the left, for flat, slice and top spin (that is therefore I pronate for all of those serve). Is it ok or I have to approach to the ball from left for top spin ??

[@charlesowens6341]

Hello Ian, In viewing videos on the web, few instructors, when referencing the kick serve, stating to pronate sooner or pronate later when hitting up to achieve a specific ball action. I am confused. It is apparent to me that one must raise or lower the ball height to determine when to pronate. Your thoughts please. Regards, C. Owens

[@Hasskeops]

Muy bueno!

[@EssentialTennis]

***** Gracias!

[@securityfamily]

Does the pronation occur naturally as the edge is thrust up and forward?

[@EssentialTennis]

Bob Pietrs It's "natural" if your body already knows how to do it, Bob. For many tennis players coming up on edge and pronating is completely foreign. They've never done it in any other overhand motion context nor ever been taught it. For them it's not natural in the least.

[@peterahern4967]

Ian, I'm having a big debate with a fellow tennis player and he says, is very insistent that top players DO NOT pronate on slice serves. He says that high level players Supinate on slice serves. Can I please ask you what you think about this?

[@BryanTanner]

Question Ian: My natural serve is about 90 mph and has both healthy slice and top spin on it. My legs only drive up around 2 inches off the court (because I don't know the technique). What are some things I can do to add a few more mph?

[@ARTZY64]

I'm not a teaching pro but I think what gets the ATP players so high off the ground is that they push against the ground really hard as they extend their legs upwards. It's ground-reaction force (Newton's Third Law of Momentum). It helps that they have really strong legs and are incredibly talented, skilled, fit, and athletic. Therefore the force applied transfers along the kinetic chain and if applied in proper sequence--and in a relaxed manner--will result in more force being transfered to the explosion of the pronating forearm/wrist/hand/racquet.

[@krakou2]

ARTZY64 legs are not as important as in groundies. You need not push hard, you need to push as fast as you can after knee bend. It's called stretch shortening cycle. Bryan Tanner legs won't get you much more mph. hip-back-shoulder-forearm-wrist improved timing and mechanics will result in more racquet delay/head speed. As a general rule relaxation and form > muscular strenght (atp players have both)

[@FYProduction]

Slice = graze the ball. Flat = through the ball. But both pronates. Just carving the ball for slice will result with lots of spin, but no pace on the serve & too easy to dump into the net. My question is, at the time of contacting the ball during pronation, what seems to be the typical angle between the racquet and forearm for the pros? Obviously it's hard on the wrist to make it 180 degrees or 90 degrees. Is it a function of how fast the upward chopping motion to start out with?

[@krakou2]

grazing/carving the ball is a misconception you also find in the slice backhand. Slice is a quasi-flat shot with a slight diverging trajectory. Pronation adds to the arm/ball trajectory separation. Try aiming at the ball between 1 and 3 o'clock, don't try to add much spin, pronate later than for a flat serve. Don't open the shouders too soon, that's a common mistake that leads to the opening of racquet face sooner than you want.

[@lightshock]

Ian, I have a doubt, cool and curious doubt. I´m an average player and learn to finish my serve at the other side of my body. So I start the movement and finish with my racket at my left side. In this video the guy is pronating (ok) and appear to finish the movement at the right side of his body. Well now the curious part, I played a lot volleyball too, and for the attack movement I learned to do the attack similar to this serve, pronating my arm and finishing the movement at the same side of the arm I´m using on the attack. So, the right arm, finish at the right side. I will try this because I notice that if I force this pronation of the arm, the best natural movement would be to finish the serve movement at the right side of the body. Right???

[@efthimispetonis7116]

Dear Friend!At the topspin serve,do we pronate???? because kick serve is a topspin serve with pronation i think.....what is your opinion?

[@EssentialTennis]

Efthimis Petonis There is absolutely pronation on a kick serve, yes.

[@abhishekartwani741]

Hi Ian. I am a Left Handed player. The part i am stuck with, in my service, is the landing of my foot. I take the jump, and i somehow don't get how should my right foot land on the ground first. When i do it naturally my left foot lands in front, or both the feet lands at their original place. Please help me out.

[@anitharaman3426]

My daughter is a left handed as well. The right foot is closest to the baseline. So when you jump your right foot will come down first into the court, close to the depth of your toss

[@KINGSCROSSMEDIAcom]

great video

[@EssentialTennis]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it, Kings.

[@danielgordon2259]

Pronation on the topspin serve is less than on a flat or slice. No?

[@ossamahkhan]

Ian. Have u ever gone thru a phase for example. U have been serving well for many days or weeks . But then suddenly when playing some day u lose all the basics of how to serve what to do. And goes clueless about wht happening to my serves . Have u gone thru this ? How to handle that situation ? And recover to previous phase of serving well Thanks. Plz reply.

[@EssentialTennis]

ossamah durrani I have gone through this. To be totally honest, everybody does, even the pros! You can't expect to have everything feeling great all the time, it's totally natural to have ups and down in your game in general and even individual strokes. Don't let it discourage you!

[@ossamahkhan]

***** thanks for the answer what will u suggest to do in these sort of situations to work out best ? :/ thanks

[@zapzhong]

ossamah durrani I would like a video on this question too.. what are some strategies when you are playing a game and your serve has become terrible..

[@chtomlin]

I think what is being missed here is how the kick pronation comes after contact as part of the decal action and not pronating into contact.

[@Mortadellacavaliere]

I started to "feel" the pronation of my hand when serving, and I noticed an extra boost of power so thanks for the advice. One question: when I do that, my arm follows through and goes to the right side of my body (Yeah, I'm right-handed), instead of doing that sort of circular motion at the end and going actually to the left. Is that an error that I have to correct..? Thanks in advance

[@slimpickinses]

Just like Boris Becker

[@TheEarlyAdoptr]

The last serve looks to be more slice than the second one. It would be good to show the ball path after contact

[@Ag3ofShadows]

PLEASE put this Wild Groundstroke Tennis ad somewhere else where I can actually X it out...

[@htaraz1346]

Hi, How about Andy Murray's power-slice serve 1st serve). To me it doesn't look like that he is doing pronation. Am I right?

[@krakou2]

Pronation with shoulder rotation is the prime power element in a serve. Some serves do not require that blend of spin and penetration thou.

[@EssentialTennis]

Hossein Taraz All top level serves include pronation, Hossein!

[@hermtennis]

One thing I am sooooo confused on the slice serve is point of contact. I hear so many different things like contact at 9 o'clock to 3, or center of the ball to 3, or recently I heard hit at 2 or 3 o'clock. Please clear this up I'm really frustrated with so many variations regarding the point of contact on the slice.

[@EssentialTennis]

Herman Lawrence Good question, Herman. I'll try to cover this in an upcoming video!

[@calvinlee4741]

I have tried to pronate on my finish and am struggling big time to do it especially on my slice serve. When I slice, I can't pronate. Well, I'm no pro obviously.

[@LantianDirect]

I can hit all the serves and I pronate on all, it's just adjusting the angle of the racquet face when you hit the ball, and your swing path. For a flat serve, it's a more back to front swing path, contact the ball flat on, then pronate. Have to. For a slice, I hit the ball with the racquet head at an angle and my swing path is going more from side to side. Still pronate. Everybody asks me advice about how to serve. So I show them the motion. But I'd say 8 out of 10 people will refuse to believe me and want to "hook" the ball to spin it...and I can't convince them otherwise. And even when they mentally almost believe me, when they serve, they try to hook around the ball.... Any tips on how to convince people on the court that it ain't so when you don't have a slow-motion-frame-by-frame to show them!

[@johnny6148]

when your were a kid and threw a rock your arm automatically pronates!!!

[@sanjaykietme1]

how to put a first serve at fastest possible speed that falls in the service box

[@shuwaffel]

You didn't really explain WHY you should pronate tho. What does it do exactly?

[@ericwilson7016]

I don't like politics. 2 words & 2 letters ; reversed U r greatness personified .

[@willzsportscards]

Clear explanation. Bottom line..pronation should happen NATURALLY. 1) swing fast 2) don't open early i.e. 'hold your edge' like Tim does beautifully here and 3) fully extend. Try that. If you do all things, you can't 'not pronate'. Even on a slice serve.

[@TROSGIA]

GREAT GREAT video. You have all types of serve aiming the same spot, from the same point of view.A suggestion: make a two or three window comparison as in Roger Federer's Kick Serve Analysis by tennisoxygen.com diplaying the different swing paths. it would be truly useful.