Prospects for Process Heat & “Advanced” Nuclear

[@bobdeverell]

Decouple readers might be interested to learn the Chinese announce they have put into operation the first large coal burning power station that uses super-critical CO2 rather than high pressure steam. It is a 200 MW design. Apparently it allows higher heat temperature (600c++),faster start stop cycling than steam and a smaller footprint.. Also improved efficiency reducing coal consumption by up to 10% Plan is to now develop a 600 MW plant. One can surmise this development will have some application to marine turbines. China's electrical system is very dependent on coal and this looks like a great interim development. Interesting to see how the economics work out. e

[@cheeseandjamsandwich]

We need Part 2... And probably Part 3 and 4! I really want to know all about process heat and nuclear... But today Noah went off on a tangent. Which in itself was very interesting, and needed. But i still want to learn about every aspect of process heat and nuclear. So perhaps 2 or 3 more episodes will allow for the on-topic stuff plus the tangents. ;-) This is a hugely important topic. So perhaps Chris could get several other experts in different parts of this field in? The electricity bit we know we can do... It's this process heat we need to know what we can do today, and what we need to work on, and what we'll simply have to accept will be created 'traditionally'...

[@NomenNescio99]

Mark Nelson is another returning guest that also would be nice to see again.

[@microburn]

But we always want to see Mark Nelson.

[@NomenNescio99]

@@microburn Agree

[@davidanalyst671]

Can you tell him to cut out the nationalist bullcrap? Zee canadians, Zee english, Zee Germas, Zee Chinese.

[@mikesnyder9474]

Please have Noah back as soon as possible!

[@aliendroneservices6621]

19:20 There are two types of electric heating being discussed here: 1. Electric arc furnace (EAF) 2. Induction furnace *_"The induction furnace is heated faster and has higher thermal efficiency._* The heat is generated in the furnace (liquid steel), so the heating speed is high. In the arc furnace, the heat of the arc after the material is cleared must be transferred to the molten steel through the slag, which is indirect heating." Aug 3, 2018

[@srb1855]

Have Noah back ASAP. This was really interesting. The idea of using the existing technology and all the know how from many decades of operation is a theme that has been mentioned before - and I think is very good advice. If I'm not mistaken Mark Nelson advocates this approach.

[@NomenNescio99]

Here in Sweden about half of the process heat used is below 300 C. This is mostly because of the large amount of paper mills which requires lower temperatures. At least that's the figure I learned when I studied engineering at uni some decades ago.

[@davidwilkie9551]

"Yet to Advance Reactors", excellent German humor. We have achieved Criticality.

[@jpd9047]

NOAH IS BACK! FINALLY!! 🥳

[@switted823]

Yes! Happy to see our good old pro-nuclear German friend from Nuklearia Noah Rettberg

[@chapter4travels]

If the energy transition away from fossil fuels relies only on high-pressure/low-temperature fission it will be a long and painful journey. The cost will be enormous not just for the power plants but for the money wasted on "Renewables" during the process. There is no reason for a low-pressure/high-temperature power plant to cost any more than a natural gas plant, 85% of the plant is identical. Pair this with thermal storage and process heat and there will be no reason to build another PWR, wind turbine, or solar farm ever again. Interestingly, the first customers for "not-yet-advanced" reactors is heat, not electricity. Dow for chemical processing, Oil sands in Canada for extraction and replacement of coal-fired boilers in existing power plants. We don't need industrial cathedrals, as PWRs were described in the Juice series we need nuclear cheaper than coal and natural gas. Cheap industrial heat is a huge bonus and the cheaper the heat, the more uses people will find for it.

[@jonanthony683]

Amen. I don't think it is possible to overemphasize the importance of this.

[@timothytaylor5867]

Can't agree more. There were several points Noah got wrong discussing efficiencies with electrifying everything. One of the main ones that he (and so many others) seem to miss out on is the efficiency of steam Rankine cycle when power plants generate electricity. Coal plants and the UK's AGRs are about 40% thermally efficient because the run at >600 deg C, CCGT plants are about 60% because they have one turbine generating directly from combustion and another separate turbine powered by the steam which is generated by the hot exhaust gases from the first step. PWRs are very limited at 30% because you run at even lower temperatures ~300 deg C. That is a hell of amount of wasted thermal TWhrs dumped directly into the surrounding environment. If you had Gen-IV reactors producing only heat you wouldn't be getting the 60-70% thermal heat loss which is inevitable due to the Rankine cycle. The efficiency would be limited by heat exchanger design, bearing in mind industrial heat exchangers are upwards of 90% efficient. PWRs are fantastic but looking much further down the line, we need to honest with themselves about their very real limitations on a broader scale with regards to primary energy supply.

[@chapter4travels]

@@timothytaylor5867 Not to mention that PWRs can't run the Brayton cycle which boosts efficiency while lowering cost and physical footprint.

[@thomasfsan]

Nice to have Noah on, I always learn so much! Also like to add that I think the self-critical attitude lends a lot of credibility to the case for nuclear in general. NPP’s have been driven too much by scientists, military and ignorants, in stead of just doing what practically works with a focus on energy production.

[@howiej4084]

Fascinating conversation. Thanks for uploading it. looking forward to insight into the breeder reactors, especially the Russian ones.

[@BruceConsidine]

Nothing on Molten Salt Reactors or Sodium as far as I could tell.

[@chapter4travels]

They kind of got off on a tangent.

[@Billy97ify]

In any case it cannot make steel from iron ore. I don't know if we got a clear answer about cement, gypsum and glass making.

[@kaya051285]

Different materials could be used for instance aluminium in place of steel for some production

[@bataviawillem1]

What are synthetic fuels and where do you get them? They came up as part of the solution to decarbonize like a miracle.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

They aren't gotten from anywhere. They are synthesized from base materials. For example, synthetic gasoline can be synthesized from atmospheric carbon-dioxide and water. The only other input needed is energy.

[@abrahamwilberforce9824]

​@@aliendroneservices6621 Noah Rettberg has been on the Nuclear Barbarians podcast three times to discuss synthetic fuels. I recommend listening to that.

[@bataviawillem1]

And where does that come from.@@aliendroneservices6621

[@canadiannuclearman]

I had the idea of using the SES10 (AECL) in 1989 reactor for process heat while at IMC potash company in Esterhazy Sask. Sadly it landed on deaf ears . SES10 is the slow poke energy system 10 mega watts. They AECL was going to install a SES10 at the University of Saskatchewan in Saskatoon to heat a building. But it was canceled by anti nucks.

[@thomasfsan]

To add, I’d love to know how much of process heat can’t easily be electrified.

[@kaya051285]

Close to 100% of industrial heat can't be electrified 'easily' and the reason is electricity costs almost 10x as much as natural gas That's before even considering that a Nat Gas Burner is super cheap and reliable far more so than an induction or arch heater

[@thomasfsan]

@@kaya051285 well that’s because not enough electricity is made. Norway has tons of electrified heavy industry.

[@kaya051285]

@thomasfsan Well Norway is close to 100% Hydropower their eletricity falls from the sky. So perhaps Norway does use electricity but that's not typical If you want a steel mill which currently uses 1 cent natural gas to heat their steel to 800 centigrade using electricity you are going to either have to subsidise that industry or society needs to accept higher prices (be more poor than it other wise would be)

[@thomasfsan]

Yes, you need much much more, and cheap electricity. We need lot's and lot's of nuclear. We can't continue releasing fossil. @@kaya051285

[@edsteadham4085]

Smart young man.

[@acwojtkowiak]

Bubble gum refers to the fact that you can make bubbles from the gum you chew, the initaial shape of the gum is not necessarily a bubble,case in point Bazooka Joe Bubble Gum. A gumball dispenser on the other hand hasthe little spheres gumballs in it in a glass container; these truly look like the pebble bed fuel elements. Gumball is the more suitable term for imagery convoquation. Please take this in the spirit of fun fact. Strongly agree that the nuclear ind. Should get a few wins out there of on time and on buget, a sustainable marketable pruduct, beforepushing with great hubris the maximize the heat efficiency design which may have years of development ahead of it. Your podcasts warm the cockles of nuclear engineers hearts.

[@canadiannuclearman]

You should do a pod cast on the SES10 recator by Atomic Energy of Canada promoted in 1989 ready to be installed in Saskatoon Saskatchewan U of S

[@aliendroneservices6621]

34:20 34:29 "In *_prismatic_* cores like the Ultra Safe MMR or Japan's HTTR, graphite is formed into chair sized hexagonal blocks with holes for cylindrical fuel pellets and separate holes for coolant channels. The core is maximally packed and nothing moves. Refueling the reactor involves swapping out the graphite blocks."

[@NomenNescio99]

Chapter4travel, where are you? I prefer building out proven technology as a first choice as well, but this episode was a little too bearish on MSR reactors even for my taste.

[@chapter4travels]

Any money spent on "Industrial Cathedrals" (PWRs) is money not wasted on wind or solar, so In that regard, I'm with you. I really like the business model of Copenhagen Atomics, we provide you the heat and you do with it what you want/need. Any of the MSRs could do the same thing, just like any of them can couple thermal storage to their reactor vessel. This also allows for much faster iteration, the main plant stays the same and only the reactor vessel gets modified over time. Take the heat to where it's needed by barge or container ship and away you go, no Cathedral needed.

[@iancormie9916]

If you are talking about supercritical water, one might as well put the research money into CO2 turbines.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

4:51 4:54 4:56 "The refining process of separating crude oil components at atmospheric pressure by heating to temperatures of about *_600º to 750º F..."_*

[@davidanalyst671]

why didn't I hear anything about advanced nuclear when India is busy building its thorium/breeder reactors, and china is considering it?

[@davidanalyst671]

can we get thhe host of this podcast some eye drops so he isn't sitting here staring off into space, blinking like he is sending morse code messages without telling his captors.

[@aliendroneservices6621]

19:20 19:24 "We have a global electricity-shortage. It's as simple as that."

[@ubobl2277]

Did he forget molten salt? Capable of beyond 1,000C. So his “nuclear never” statement is rather moot.

[@chapter4travels]

A 1000C MSR is definitely a "Yet-to-advance" reactor. The highest I've seen proposed is 750c. But if your reactor is producing 750c salt and also electricity, it would be a very efficient way to get to 1000.

[@ubobl2277]

@@chapter4travels Watch from 10:00 to 15:00. “V2” of Ed’s reactor will be in the 1,000-1,300C range. The rest confirms the status quo of LWR/HWR and thermal spectrum MSR process heat temps. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4LMk2ibq8aCeZYsi=xk_lj8NyztzB9cYR

[@kaya051285]

How do you get that heat a mile down to the local chemicals plant though

[@chapter4travels]

@@kaya051285 Why would you build the reactor a mile from where it's needed?

[@lynndonharnell422]

How about polysilicon?

[@missano3856]

Do some German coverage, they evidently plan to build some gas power plants now

[@rafamaszkowski6796]

Very dense. I could not follow with double speed, had to slow down. Excellent.

[@davidwilkie9551]

Like designing and tuning the specifications of particular musical instruments, a particular Reactor design is a complex Relativistic Physics crystal machine of AM-FM time-timing modulation sync-duration resonance shell-horizons in continuous QM-TIME Completeness superposition-> creation-connection holography. WYSIWYG arbitrarily shaping for shifting the default purpose of pure-math relative-timing ratio-rates Circuitry to fit human requirements.

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

Is this a world solution ?? Nuclear electricity proliferation to stop CO2 emissions proliferation to stop climate warming or create nuclear winter 🤔🤔 🤔🤔 😮

[@microburn]

lol if you think nuclear electricity generation will create nuclear winter, you’ve completely missed the point. Get an education!

[@stephenbrickwood1602]

@microburn do you know what nuclear winter is? Educate me.

[@pin65371]

@@stephenbrickwood1602 do a search for "every nuclear bomb explosion ever" and then tell us how using nuclear to create heat for our day to day life will cause a nuclear winter.