Prototype Plastic Ammo True Velocity General Dynamics

[@Taskandpurpose]

Thanks for watching spare parts army! Code is TASK and link is magicspoon.com/task for $5 off Let me know what you think of the US Armys polymer ammo and bullpup weapon?

[@heliowolf5042]

The polymer ammo available now on the civilian market seems to have a pretty poor accuracy. I also wonder about the accuracy of this bullpup rifle since the barrel reciprocates. How accurate will actually be at 800 yards?

[@humanityisevil]

and we all go 💥 💥 💥

[@humanityisevil]

Now I don't like it any more then you do

[@dr2d2]

Will there be a civilian version of it?

[@Jason32Bourne]

In my opinion, from just viewing the thing being shot, it seems to have almost as much recoil if not more than a 7.62x51. If anyone has shot it, I would love to hear your experience. Another thing that's sounding off alarm bells would be the potential negative health impacts of having hot plastic being cooked and degrading (most likely on a micro scale) right next to one's mouth and face. It might not seem like a big deal, but aint no one want cancer, brain/lung damage, or any other hazardous side effects a few decades down that line.

[@parallaxe5394]

Hello. Material science engineer here. A few points about the polymer casing. 1. Capability is not the problem. High performance polymers can do amazing things and can be tailored to the task. COST is the main limiting factor here. If they can streamline the process and reduce the cost of the base material to a minimum than maybe they can be competetive. 2. Polymers in general transfer heat very slowly compared to metals, as such most of the residual energy of the powder burn stays inside the casing on ejection. 3. Very low temperature is most likely the main problem for the polymer as it is designed for a high temp application. Still, many polymers in cars have to perform at -40°C to +50°C so it is doable but once again a question of cost. 4. Main problems for long term and large scale use are casing quality and casing stability. Like any other material polymers do degrade over time, the faster the harsher the environment. There are counter measures based on chemicals but these mean increased cost and also reduced performance.

[@ChefofWar33]

As long as it meets military specs for degradation, its solid. People forget that brass ammo needs to be stored in a dry and room temperature container in order to not degrade. The same will apply to ammo of any other material.

[@parallaxe5394]

@@ChefofWar33 Hello. Well the problem here is that polymers degraded in a different way than for example brass does and because of that the specs used right now might not be the right ones to determine long term stability of the polymer casings. Changes in base materials are a tricky thing in any industry. Many wisdoms and guidelines you developed over the years need to be revisited and changed.

[@catsupchutney]

Finally after a page of scrolling I see a comment that balances the informative but overtly one sided review in this video. This vid could easily substitute for a sales brochure.

[@Taskandpurpose]

true velocitys manufacturing requires WAY less people I'm forgetting the exact figure they gave me but I think its like 9 times less staff required to produce polymer ammo compared to brass. OF COURSE this is all according to True Velocity and we need to take it with a grain of salt

[@trk1169]

3. Is this why they use plastic rather than carbon fiber?

[@JoeBorg1]

I absolutely don't believe that has the same felt recoil as the M4. It's clearly and visibly pretty high recoil, looks more than my FAL and certainly more than any 5.56 rifle I have.

[@another5961]

Yeah he’s death gripping it, not way it’s the same as an AR

[@ChaiSuBin]

We should hold our decision until civilian release of this ammo and rifle for other reviewers to test. Honestly, Cappy is just your average infantryman. And not all infantryman are Tier 1 high speed low drag operators that can shoulder fire a FAL at full auto. I for one, am very excited for polymer ammo. If it means giving better performance for less weight.

[@jazb4317]

Agreed. Looks like it has some kick to it compared to M4. But the M4 doesn't automatically pop smoke for concealment, so I guess that is a plus? 🤔

[@thelostpsychosis]

That's what I thought when I seen people shooting 5.56, but then I shot it for myself.

[@peace957]

I was thinking the same thing lol. I instantly thought that recoil looked just like an FAL or a G3.

[@williammarkham7598]

For anyone who is still confused why the plastic cartridge heats up the gun less than brass cartridges with the same powder and projectile, don't fret! This guy is trying his best to explain it quickly, and his explanation skips a lot of things in the middle because it would frankly be absurd to try explaining the mechanism in an eleven minute long video. First, the conclusion: the polymer casing that this rifle system uses allows the rifle to run cooler than a theoretically identical system that uses the same projectile and amount of gunpowder in a brass casing. The keys to understanding this lie in the heat transfer, chemical kinetics, and basic thermodynamics of this system. Heat transfer. Gun brass will conduct heat roughly 400 faster than polymer because its coefficient of heat transfer is larger by roughly 400 times. (Typical brass has a thermal conductivity of around 100 W/m/K, and PVC has a thermal conductivity of around 0.25 W/m/K. I'm sure that the polymer used for these casings has an even lower thermal conductivity than PVC, as this is a desirable trait for a polymer used around combustion reactions.) The polymer used for these casings is assumedly thicker than the brass that would be used in conventional cartridges, so the insulating properties of polymer will be increased that much more because heat transfer is inversely proportional to thickness of materials the heat transfers through. Kinetics. Gunpowder is a mixture of compounds that reacts violently with oxygen to produce heat, light, sound, and a massive amount of gaseous compounds. Because the reaction produces many, many more moles of gas than it consumes, this gas expands quickly; this is the actual driving force that propels the projectile down the barrel. Thermodynamics. The ideal gas law states that an increase in temperature of a gas will cause the pressure and/or volume to increase, assuming that the amount of gas in the system is not decreasing. If you can keep the gas temperature high, this pressure will stay high. Accordingly, we find the following when we use a polymer casing for ammunition: the polymer conducts less heat away from the gunpowder combustion, so some of this heat must remain in the gases produced by gunpowder combustion. This in turn makes the explosion transfer more energy to the projectile than the chamber of the weapon, allowing it to run cooler while requiring less gunpowder to attain any given desired projectile velocity. Because we can use less gunpowder, less heat is generated (i.e. we use less gunpowder, so we get less heat); because less heat is generated, even less heat is transferred to the chamber to heat up the gun. Other notes: - remember that the hot gas is expanding down the entire length of the metal barrel, hence the gun heats up twice as slowly with polymer instead of five hundred times as slowly like the thermal conductivity comparison would suggest - it's entirely possible that these cartridges won't cook off because they melt first; however, it's more likely that the gunpowder will auto-ignite at lower temperatures than the modern polymer used in the casings, so it's more likely that the thick polymer casing insulates the gunpowder well enough that the gunpowder heats up slower than the gun naturally cools down. - polymer casings like this could plausibly be easier to mass-produce and recycle on a large scale than brass casings, depending on how they're manufactured; however, my guess is that the polymer's composition makes it more expensive to produce than brass casings because the polymerization process requires a lot more expensive equipment than brass casting does.

[@williammarkham7598]

Source: I'm in my last year of chemical engineering at university, and these are all standard concepts for the field. That doesn't make them easy, mind you, I've just been forced to spend more time with them. You'd know your crazy wine aunt better, too, if you were forced to spend fifty hours a week with her in the library.

[@tinyplaidninjas8868]

Mechanical engineer here: this is a great explanation and I totally back this

[@fallinginthed33p]

Polymer is an insulator for heat, brass is a conductor. By using less powder to get the same bullet velocity, there's less heat going into the casing and the barrel.

[@williammarkham7598]

@@fallinginthed33p yes, that's what I'm saying. I added a clarifying parenthetical because my wording there wasn't clear, thanks for the heads-up.

[@matthewkubinec1620]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It took me back to my university chemistry courses when you said 'ideal gas law' and 'moles'. It was oddly nostalgic for a discussion of gun mechanics.

[@josephkelemen555]

That absolutely makes sense The individual round absorbed the more heat per shot so it is it expelled from the gun rather than transferred to the gun

[@ArmouredProductions]

For those who haven't heard, this weapon is being released for Civillians as the True Velocity Genesis.

[@jonnyw82]

Same caliber?

[@jamesricker3997]

It's not going to be released in a civilian version for about 5 to 10 years

[@kidcharlemagne1002]

@@jamesricker3997 gives me plenty of time to save for one.

[@totenfurwotan4478]

@James Ricker doubt they would release a statement saying it’s coming out for civilians and then wait andecaden

[@Followme556]

For the low low price of you can't afford it. :D

[@skenzyme81]

Still burning a candle for the TEXTRON rifle and their CyberPunky case-telescoped ammunition. We have been denied the future for so long I want ALL of it. NOW!

[@skenzyme81]

Cappy, I was annoyed when Textron wouldn't show you their fancy pew-pew stick. They are acting BIZARRELY about it. Either they know they have no chance for the NGSW contract or they know they've already won. Some odd politics afoot.

[@samuelbishop3316]

They've already been kicked from the competition Didnt meet the requirements

[@skenzyme81]

@@samuelbishop3316 F

[@icefl4re597]

The Textron SAW replacement don't have quick change barrel. The glass temperature (when the polymer essentially loses their strength) is still kinda low. Needs to be more abuse proof.

[@bretth6393]

The Textron rifles had problems with barrel erosion. The way the bullet jumps from the telescoped casing to barrel causes it. It can be fixed, but Textron would need more time than they have.

[@regalplays7135]

Even if this rifle doesn't get selected I hope we see more development go into polymer-cased ammo

[@Krieghandt]

I think that is a given. Even if it is just to use it as belt ammo to keep machine guns from cooking off rounds.

[@adriaandraije3838]

Knowing the us army, it will probably use 5 56 ammo in polymer-cased ammo so grunts can carry even more stuff

[@Merecir]

Will never be approved because it is littering plastic.

[@raptor0040]

I remember finding heaps of black and white plastic 5.56 practice shells used by the Australian army back in the 80s when they used to practice in what is now Sunset national park in north western Victoria, Australia. I dont know what type of plastic it was but the white ones would break down real quick in the sun.

[@davidhodgin8900]

@@Merecir fr

[@mctaguer]

The recoil thing is also cumulative. I had to qualify with a German G3 (7.62) once and fire ~230 rounds. I felt like I'd been beaten with a baseball bat after. The more you fire, the more that matters. I'd be comfortable. I'm happy with the specs and thoroughness of testing. Q: how much do seven full magazines of polymer ammo weigh vs. brass? If the total is even 8 oz. less, it's significant.

[@arieltraasdahl-xh6ri]

30% weight reduction compared to 168 grain brass cased ammunition. 175 grain Federal Match ammunition weighs 400 grains (25.9 grams).

[@donaldjasoncrunk]

Wow, I think your videos have consistently been the best place for normies to get info on the NGSW program. Thanks for the content, your vids are great!

[@JoshuaC923]

I agree, the writing quality has gone up a lot recently. Really great work

[@violetraven9440]

Exactly I’m not very interested in what the army does but I love the gear tactics and new developments like this and I get all of that on here it’s always a blast

[@lee.as.in.l.e.e.7394]

@@violetraven9440 same here brutha

[@exodusconcepts]

The Amicus recoil looks much more tame than the Sig MCX Spear during controlled firing. The technology is also very interesting, and looks awesome. My first rifle was actually a bullpup so I am not against them, and like the manual of arms, I've also used AR's in a work environment for a while. This rifle excites me much more than the spear.

[@onionhead5780]

Bullpups have some advantages but unfortunately the trigger isn’t one of them. I’m a retired gunsmith and no trigger pull snob but almost every bullpup trigger design I’ve encountered has had an exceptionally bad trigger pull.

[@LIGHTNING278TH]

@@onionhead5780 So up to military standard then.

[@vgman94]

@@LIGHTNING278TH 😂😂😂

[@discipleaj]

British and Australian military has no issue destroying its targets and defeating the enemy using a bullpup weapon. It is utter laziness on the part of the individual who resists the change because they don't want to learn how a new weapon system operates and practice with it. I guarantee if the US Military adopts the weapon to replace the M4, in less than 10 years you'll see people on KZbin with all kinds of mods for it and loving the platform.

[@diegovildosola8295]

I concur. The Amicus really looks like a next gen rifle. I hope big army goes for this bid.

[@Xeemix]

Its honestly amazing, far higher tech then most would realize at a glance and as much as I would want one, it'd be so damn expensive, hopefully we'll get another handgun comp soon.

[@ilmt]

The problem of caseless ammo was that a lot of the heat ended up in the chamber, while brass has high thermal conductivity, yet it still has some thermal capacity as well, so it will take some of the heat with it, when ejected (you know - hot shells flying underyour shirt ;) ). I would bet that totally insulating case would have even better results. So if it can sustain the pressure, or the chamber supports the case well enough it seems quite viable. You just have to be sure that the plastic don't melt in the chamber so it could be extracted - I think that was the highest limiting factor for the use of plastic for cases.

[@zidniafifamani2378]

You can use polymer with high glass transition temperature like Polyether Imide (PEI), coat it using Multi Walled Boron Nitride Nanotubes Aerogel to protect it against extreme temperatures and reinforced the polymer using Multi Walled Boron Nitride Nanotubes so it because much stronger (we haven't got to do it commercially yet, but it's interesting idea).

[@williamzk9083]

@@zidniafifamani2378 The Germans had one working in the lab, called nipolit

[@miriamweller812]

Lighter weapon -> more recoil (it's in the end all physics) -> even more shots missed + bigger prob with overheating = sounds awful by that alone.

[@zidniafifamani2378]

@@miriamweller812 nor necessarily, it all depends on internal mechanisms (for example look at Surefire MGX, KAC LAMG and KAC AMG)

[@kaliningradtoczechrepublic8162]

not all plastic is the same, hence why you see modern fireman wearing plastic helmets for example

[@meesterskullbaby]

If I hadn't watched the 3D printed firearm community grow by leaps and bounds over the last 5 to 7 years I wouldn't think that the advantages promised by this plastic round would be possible it sounds too good to be true. But material science continues and I surely hope that this will be as good as they say it will be

[@DSiren]

@@sniperjared he didn't say they were. He said he would have heard plastic and thought of that chinesium garbage we're all used to, but because of his knowledge of 3d printed firearms, he finds the claims more believable because he's already seen proof plastic can handle these kinds of stresses.

[@diapysik]

I'm real skeptical after the last few designer polymer cased rounds and their habit to blow the fuck up. If these work then cool, but I'm gonna wait until they're proven before talking shit or praising their genius.

[@Scroolewse]

Agreed. This stuff is really starting to make the present feel like the "future" of classic sci-fi's.

[@justinlance4174]

@@diapysik if its adopted it will hold up. Do u own polymer guns? They wouldn't adopt without making sure the ammo is up to the task

[@davidpalmer4184]

Hi Chappy, I am an old vet, back in the days when Australia was transiting from the 7.62 FN FAL (SLR) to the brand new M16. We were assured at the time that the M16 was so wonderful that it never needed cleaning. (It never came with a cleaning kit) I have learned to ignore the hype when a new weapon is released because we had to carry a shipload of cotton buds (Q tips) and an abrasive paste as well as improvised barrel pull throughs to keep the new wonder weapons working. I still miss the ability for the 7.62 to "reach out and touch someone"

[@trvmcintosh]

I’m very excited to see where this rifle goes but I don’t think it has the same felt recoil as a 5.56, it seems to me that it has a bit more than even a short AR/gas system

[@wcstrawberryfields8011]

That thing was kicking his a§§!

[@JB-cv6dz]

This thing kicks more than an M-4

[@tristen9736]

Lmao, the enemy soldiers would think its a smoke signal with how much that thing was smoking

[@BlackEnglishmen]

It has more recoil. You’re confusing muzzle climb with felt recoil.

[@odinisgod4577]

im seeing the same recoil impulse of a 7.62x54r or a 308 sbr with a 12inch barrel

[@someonethatisachristian]

based on this review, that rifle looks amazing and lightyears ahead of regular 5.56 weapons today. One thing that wasnt answered here is weight of ammo/weapon since the round is alot larger than 5.56.

[@Kross8761]

The weight is comparable to 5.56 due to the polymer casing, the rifle I think might weigh a smidge more, but the ammo is roughly the same (might even be a hair lighter? Maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head)

[@MichaelNKaboose]

@@Kross8761 I believe NATO 5.56 is ~12 grams and 7.62 is ~25 grams. 6.8TVCM is supposed to be 30% lighter than 7.62 NATO, so that would make it around 18.5 grams. Still ~55% heavier than 5.56.

[@Kross8761]

@@MichaelNKaboose I thought the numbers were much more comparable. In any case, I like the concept of the ammunition, but I don't like the rifle, I'm much more partial to the Sig Spear entry into the NGSW program.

[@ZMAN_420]

One thing that wasn't answered too is the main reason for changing caliber. Shooting at armor, distance and ballistics on soft targets?

[@theeddorian]

@@ZMAN_420 Probably a compromise for weight vs penetration and range. As it is, the rounds are still about twice as heavy as the 5.56. That is still a gain over the carry weight of standard 7.62. If they went with a standard 7.62 ball, the gain in carry weight over the standard 7.62 would be smaller. At the same time if they had gone with a hotter 5.56, the lighter weight still leaves it with less penetration and reliable range, even though it would be lighter than the 6.8.

[@milkisspicy5840]

This channel has grown so much the past two years, its been a great experience watching Cappy grow into a competent and engaging narrator. The production quality and info provided is second to none. Thanks for your work.

[@buddermonger2000]

Seeing what goes into this I'm a lot more hopeful about this rifle than I am the Spear even though I know it probably won't win. This rifle seems like a genuine game changer with the ability to just switch to a rather controllable automatic fire

[@damienharbin242]

Agreed. I’ve been saying this the whole time. The new technology in this with the polymer ammo and the bullpup design makes me believe that this is a better weapon than the Spear. I do think the DOD is much more likely to choose the Spear, though, simply due to how similar it is to the current platform.

[@buddermonger2000]

@@damienharbin242 I'm going to be honest, the Spear is a weapon for the Russians in that it's easy to repair, having specific fallback points, and nothing really big changing. It can take probably more punishment even in addition to the extra punishment it's taking from its own ammo. This is in comparison to the bullpup (I can't remember its name lol) which is meant to have a new system which increases soldier abilities in combat. MG 6.8 is better than no MG though and that was a mistake on their part.

[@wigon]

@@damienharbin242 Are you dudes fucking blind? The recoil looks way harder than on a SCAR-17H in .308. The military should have gone with 6.5 Creedmoore. Softer shooting, better range.

[@TheGamersfolly]

The US won't upgrade from the M4. They just won't.

[@Imaworldstar-jw3yj]

Oh i am studying english online be my friend

[@8lack8bird]

I'm actually curious about how much of an improvement when this poly case applied to the current 5.56 & 7.62 caliber and it's respective rifle.

[@SniperInTheTower]

That's what I'm wondering. He said that due to being polymer more of the energy from the powder going off is directed into the bullet instead of lost as heat, and that this cartridge is 20% more effective than 7.62 NATO. So how much more effective would polymer 7.62 NATO be? Knowing the military this weapon is unlikely to be adopted, even the cartridge is likely a pipe dream. But the technology that's really being explored here might just be the polymer case, so that will be interesting to see.

[@dsfs17987]

@@SniperInTheTower their reasoning probably is the heat transfer rate of plastic vs brass, meaning - brass conducts the combustion gas heat to the barrel quicker than the plastic case, so in theory the hot gas remains hotter while it is pushing the bullet, but that is only true in the chamber area, the rest of the barrel isn't coated... perhaps it is good for cook off prevention - plastic case insulating the chamber portion of the barrel from hot gasses, but the heat from the front of the barrel is going to transfer to the chamber area eventually

[@justinlance4174]

It's better. And any 7 62x51 can be converted to 6.8 with a barrel switch

[@joenunya8449]

@@dsfs17987 which leads to the natural question, "What other ways could we reduce the heat absorption in the chamber?" There are other materials with lower thermal conductivity coefficients than brass steel and plastic. What about a disposable chamber liner? What about a hard ceramic chamber liner? What about space age polymers and or carbons? What about a insertable tool-less chamber insert to convert a 7.62x51 to 6.8x51?

[@dsfs17987]

@@joenunya8449 don't forget - what will it cost and how long will it last? this one is most important when it comes to very marginal gains

[@charliewolf7500]

I was lucky enough to enter training in the Australian Army as an Engineer when we were changing our rifles from the Vietnam Era 7.62mm SLR, to the modern lightweight and locally produced 5.56mm F88 Austeyr. The SLR was an absolute heavy pig, however, would fire through just about anything. The Austeyr was an absolute pleasure, except that the rounds would defect when firing prone in long grass. I would love to try the new 6.8mm ammo in a lightweight medium barrel.

[@2Potates]

Well then i have great news for you, apparently they're working on a F90 variant scaled up for 6.8

[@Lord_Shadowz]

@@christinalaw3375 Hey, you know what they say about bulges! Atleast we got one!!!

[@695925]

Preferred the SLR any day. Hated the bull pup style chambering beside the ear. May be ok on the range with hearing protection, different story in the field.

[@MarkUs-df3mm]

​@@695925 For what it's worth I believe it's actually the distance of the barrel to your ear as well as flash suppressor / muzzle brake that makes the difference. I worked this out as an 18yo in the ARA; the f88 with 24" barrel or f89 / mag58 didn't hurt nearly as much as the carbine f88 with 16 and 20" barrels. After moving to the US and becoming familiar with the AR platform the same rule seems to hold true; shooters using the AR "pistol" style platforms with barrels as short as 10 - 12" are f'ing ridiculously loud, with the 16" m4 style not being much better.

[@kev897]

Yep the slr was my personal weapon when I served in the early 80's. Its heavy for sure but nobody was getting up after being hit

[@AMoistEggroll]

If the casings are biodegradable, that would save us the trouble of finding and picking up brass after the range is clear!

[@Y.M...]

I wouldn't be able to afford it and probably neither would most other people.

[@sesameseedbar8853]

Asking the military to quit work for the sake of work? 😂 Yeah right!

[@talltroll7092]

It's pretty unlikely that a polymer that is suitable for use as ammo casing will also be biodegradable. You might also ponder the wisdom of having ammo cases designed to degrade over time...

[@Taskandpurpose]

casings are magnetic so you can pick them up easily now haha

[@Y.M...]

@@talltroll7092 good guess

[@FLORATOSOTHON]

Very good presentation. If the polymer can take the temperature range mentioned and does not crack when used under extreme cold conditions (near peer winter lol), then it looks impressive. Germans in WW2 were known to get instant frostbite when they tried to relieve themselves during the winter. Many reports mention that they were used to winter conditions in Germany, but they never expected the cold conditions they encountered in the Eastern front.

[@Oblivisci........]

Well the world hasn't been that cold Ina while and it probably won't be so we're good.

[@AndTheCorrectAnswerIs]

@@Oblivisci........ You've been drinking too much of Greta's Kool Aide. The avg. global temperature has only increased 1.1F since 1950.

[@huwhitecavebeast1972]

Instant frostbite is nonsense. That's just some embellishment to make war stories sound more cool. I've been in -51 and it's cold but you don't get instant frostbite taking a piss. You'd have to touch liquid nitrogen to get instant frostbite.

[@arewe9647]

@@AndTheCorrectAnswerIs and that fucking suck.

[@Prometheus7272]

@@Oblivisci........ That's not how global warming works.

[@Florkl]

I am extremely excited about the advancements in polymer ammo and hope it hits mass market regardless of if they get any military contracts.

[@mrschnider6521]

im excited that we will have even more plastic that connot be reused and will never degrade, these awesome rifles are like a trash factory.

[@thomasbarlow4223]

Just what we need more plastic for the ocean and you already know that those bullets are going to be very problem soon after a couple years after Manufacturing.... only brand new bullets will fire correctly

[@laknidubandara]

@@thomasbarlow4223Forget about it.

[@jungleno.]

Cheaper to manufacture but No cost savings passed on to the consumer. Non reloadable Plastic cases Bad for the environment. Sounds like a lose lose for shooters.

[@DavidJ222]

That rifle clearly has more recoil than the M-4. At 5:16, it looked like the shooter was going to fall backwards.

[@bunnyonabunwithagunnicepun5689]

Alright, so, a few questions regarding the Polymer casings: Are they cheaper than Brass? Can they be re-melted and re-cast with relative ease and safety? Can you find the primers with a metal detector? How many times would it be possible to reload a round before it breaks, and is that number lower than a Brass counterpart? Can we paint it in a tactical Khaki color? Do they float on water? Weird questions, I know, but if this truly is the ammo of the future, we may see this stuff be melted down into figurines and appliances by civilians in 100 years, or recycled somehow, all I know is that I'd rather expect the unexpected, I guess.

[@neonshoji]

I highly doubt that it'd be cheaper until it's widely adapted. Also, you know that states like California would ban if for "environmental reasons".

[@SurmaSampo]

These have to be made out of thermoset plastic so there is no way they will be recyclable and most likely not safely reloadable. Militaries don't care about either of those features and to be honest neither do most civilians. At scale they are quite likely to be cheaper than brass since brass per kg is an expensive material and most plastics are not even close to that pricepoint.

[@huwhitecavebeast1972]

@@SurmaSampo I'm pretty sure a lot of civilians care.

[@spudpud-T67]

Will the spent plastic break down in the sun and degrade away.

[@SurmaSampo]

@@huwhitecavebeast1972 I am sure a lot do but not most.

[@Phantom1188_]

It doesn’t matter if the “felt recoil” is less if everyone can visibly tell there is more muzzle rise. Muzzle rise is what slows down the shooter, so if it feels like shooting a BB gun but the muzzle still rises 6 inches most soldiers don’t give a flying crap if it’s less felt if they can’t shoot as quickly and accurately.

[@ashirii8347]

realistically I'm more worried about cost efficiency. M4s might be some hot ass but their decently cheap to mass produce and maintain. This rifle looks a lot more complex and probably much more expensive. EDIT: also weight, cause I mean more parts = heavier (a lot of people in the army complain about weight on their weapons especially if anything is added to it)

[@SamtheIrishexan]

I mean you really would need to see cap shoot his m4 for a good comparison without using precision measuring equipment

[@danh9503]

Let's guess you're an expert in firearms manufacturing yeah? If not....stfu with the typical youtuber who thinks they know everything about everything in every subject lol

[@victorglaviano]

When being shot at in combat all the BS science behind everything goes out the window and laying any kind of lead downrange, accurate, inaccurate, burst, auto, semi, whatever... Lead towards enemies is your friend, any combat veteran knows this!!

[@MikeMcCarthy240sx]

That rifle was kicking his ass lol. I agree on not completely judging without a comparison though.

[@lulilbul17lulibul87]

The MCX (556)itself failed at multiple military contracts (beeing ranked last in the French army testing, for ex). I haven't looked much into why, but I doubt the spear change to a higher caliber AND can fix all of the issues, especially how the amicus ammo bid seems to shred through the tests

[@joncampo1627]

The recoil spring has been known to blow up for no reason, among other things.

[@joncampo1627]

@E It’s still garbage

[@Rrgr5]

I don't feel so confident about that ammo, looks quite complicated, also, that high pressure is damn scary, doesn't look like a good idea.

[@Lowlyking2001]

I can't find anything about those tests, you got some sources? I wanna read up on them.

[@WoodHughes]

Fascinating! I had the privilege of transitioning from M-14’s to the original M-16 (three prong flash suppressor) to the M-1A1 which featured a lot of improvements which included a chomed chamber to prevent jams. The problem dealing with those weapons makes me think first of how to keep the weapon usable in a muddy environment. We haven’t seen a lot of those lately, but its due.

[@markmcintosh7095]

I had the same experience. Used the m14 in boot camp then was issued a m16 in ITR and the rest of infantry training. 1969

[@python27au]

My regular rifle was an L1A1 SLR Australian version of the FN FAL. In six years i had one stoppage during an ex and it was solved by turning the gas knob a point. I got to train with the M16 A1 once in 1989 i it worked ok for me but the bloke beside me in the weapons pit fired one burst and then it stopped, he had to manually pull the bolt back after each shot. We were ordered to expend all ammo so he fired his 6 or 8 20 rnd mags bolt action style it took a long time😁 The bells and whistles the salesmen like to brag about are ok but i think the most important feature of an infantry weapon should be reliability. You should be confident that it will fire every time, no matter the environment. My dad was drafted in 1970 and during training they were shown the Owen gun of WWII. They loaded it and tied it to the back of a truck and drove it some distance (dunno how far) down a track, through dust water and mud, bouncing off trees and stuff the whole way. At the end they cocked it and fired off a burst, the mag got bent so it only fired 3 or 4 rounds but it fired. He was impressed, it wasn’t pretty or comfortable, or accurate over long distances but it fired every time. When i joined they had replaced it with the F1 which was an ok weapon but had one major flaw, the safety catch was easy to remove and when it fell out the trigger mechanism went SPROING!😁 and then the troop sergeant got the shits and you spent a lot of time cleaning things😳😬

[@westrim]

A good laymans comparison for the cartridge might be lightbulbs. Incandescent bulbs heat a filament until it glows. Lots of light, lots of heat. If all you want is light, that heat is a giant waste. Florescent lights run the electricity through a gas which doesn't need to be hot to glow. Lots of light, way less heat. So for the same amount of electricity you can get way more light, and way less heat. Similarly, the cartridge wastes much less energy as heat, reducing the stress of bleeding off that heat. I think.

[@williammarkham7598]

Not quite; I think this youtuber is barking up the wrong tree with his explanation about efficiency leading to the gun running cooler. Try this explanation: you have a cooler full of ice, and a steel pot full of the same amount of ice. Cover them both (the cooler has an insulated lid, the pot has a metal lid), stick them outside all day, and the cooler will have more ice in it at the end of the day. The plastic cartridge does essentially the same thing as the cooler: it doesn't conduct as much heat from the gunpowder combustion to the chamber, so the chamber heats up more slowly.

[@josealcala4756]

unless the powder they are using is different than the powder used in traditional brass cartridges, then I don't think that the light bulb analogy holds up. He mentions that the polymer casings are better insulated and that there is less heat transfer to the chamber. I think this is the key to the gun running cooler. The brass casings easily transfer heat from the ignited gas to the chamber which builds up and can ultimately damage the barrel. The polymer casings retain the heat within the casing and remove the heat from the system once they are ejected. So while the same amount of heat is generated from the burned powder, less heat reaches the chamber. I think that this is what is meant by the efficiency.

[@haroldsandahl6408]

Its hard to create a good analogy. I think the process works by keeping the heat contained where you want it. In this case with the gun powder meaning you have greater combustion which gives more energy to the bullet. That also means all your heat is trapped in your gas and gas is crap at heat transfer. So the bullet shoots faster, farther, with less smoke, the gun stays colder, but the gases coming out of the gun are hotter. To use arbitrary numbers, its implied the insulation cuts down heat loss by half. So a given bullet has 10 joules of force (Its unrealistic but makes the numbers easy) and normally 5 J is loss to heat (again, numbers are pulled from thin air). That leaves 5 J to propel the bullet. If you cut heat loss by half, you increase the force to the bullet by 2.5 J, increasing the force the bullet experiences by half to a total of 7.5 J. Heck even if the efficiency was 80% goes to pushing the bullet, cutting heat by half increases efficiency by 10%.

[@haroldsandahl6408]

@@williammarkham7598 I think that's mostly fair, except that heat needs to go somewhere. It could stick with the gases or it could react with more powder increasing efficiency. Really it depends on what the heat is doing

[@williammarkham7598]

@@haroldsandahl6408 I just spend the last forty minutes writing out a comprehensive explanation, go ahead and filter through the comments for it if you want to hear more of what I have to say

[@M4A3Sherman]

They are both interesting and good rifles. The MCX “Spear” is a more conventional rifle, and has some very nice features: Folding stock, high durability, changeable barrel. The Amicus is different with some other good features: lower recoil and potential game changing ammo. I do like how the Sig bid has a carbine version in the form of the Raptor. It looks like both rifles have a good chance at winning.

[@wipplewopple1876]

As cool as this rifle would be, it'd be wiser to put your money on SIG. They have military contracts and have shown they can produce to the level that Big Army would need, and even though Beretta and General Dynamics are pretty big names, I don't know if that's enough. SIG also has a conventional rifle, so while any new soldiers are just gonna get trained on the new rifle, retraining is always brought up as a road block. The polymer ammo is a really novel idea, though, and that could be their driving force. We may end up seeing something like the SIG Spear with polymer ammo. EDIT: We could also get the General Dynamics rifle because their rifle and MG contestants are nearly identical, with mainly just a different barrel, while SIG's MG is a pretty different system. If the Marine Corp is anything to go by, then US doctrine could revolve less around the suppressive volume of an MG and more around the accuracy, power, and range of these new rounds.

[@schleybailey]

the question is who can bid lower

[@Sk0lzky]

I'd be rooting for spear (in fact if the price isn't too outlandish I'm considering getting the civvie option) if not for the fact it has the M4 sniper button :v I have a deep hatred for that tiny part of the ar design

[@UnrelatedNonsense]

At this point the SIG is the most likely candidate to be chosen in this process. It has basically the same controls as an AR and SIG knows how to undercut its competitors. The U.S military hates change so having something as close to an M4 as possible is the way to go.

[@thatredmanguy]

"It looks like both rifles have a good chance at winning." SIG and True Velocity-Beretta are the last two competitors left standing in NGSW race, and for good reason. Both have considerable design, but we'll get a final answer from Big Army by the end of this year.* *That if the program doesn't get cancelled or postponed.

[@controlfreak1963]

I think polymer ammo is the next level in ammo design. Amazing engineering on the anti recoil system.

[@MadGeorge88]

what about the prototype H/K G11 caseless ammo

[@Jo-xk3pk]

I'm still hoping for Lazer guns!

[@slimjim7411]

@@MadGeorge88 Caseless ammo builds up too much chamber heat. The newer version was basically just reloadable cases making it not really caseless ammo.

[@MadGeorge88]

@@slimjim7411 yeah i was just watching the video of it and was like that's gonna get hot quicker than brass.

[@MadGeorge88]

@@Jo-xk3pk Best I can do is an electric musket.

[@richardlewis1870]

I joined the British Army in 87. We were still using the SLR 7.62. We were trained to hit targets at 600+ meters. Now they are trained to hit targets at 400meters down to the 5.56 ammo. SLR was awesome. You got hit by that you went down.

[@graftongodofmemes]

Na it dosnt work like that. Its one of those things that sound intuitively correct but yeah, nah. If 308 was so great ,why did every armed force in the world change to intermediate ammunition like 556 or 762 x39? I'll tell ya why, average range 250 Meters ,YAW, lighter ammo etc. You ever seen that MythBusters when they shoot a suspended pig with 50 cal solids etc? T

[@TheChiconspiracy]

@@graftongodofmemes It's mind boggling how long the uber-conservative US military seemed to think that you needed a round that could be used for a number of big game animals for unarmored human targets.

[@nicholasbrown668]

@@TheChiconspiracy "uber conservative US" you realize we adopted that round from the British who used it a full half a century longer than we did? Yeah ok now shut up In fact we WENT BACK to that round BECAUSE THE BRITISH BROUGHT IT BACK with a sniper rifle

[@TheChiconspiracy]

@@nicholasbrown668 What are you talking about? When exactly did we adopt 7.62x51 NATO from the British? When did they invent that?

[@nicholasbrown668]

@@TheChiconspiracy considering the trials for it used data from British rounds? Yeah they did help invent it( as did most major NATO nations)

[@nicholasn.2883]

This thing seems pretty darn cool. Well engineered. Seems like a modern day weapon without too many drawbacks

[@Daves_Not_Here_Man_76]

Drawbacks will be discovered by the idiot privates. First one I see is the bulb at the end makes it impossible for Private Potato to stick it up his arse

[@KillersFromTheWest]

@@Daves_Not_Here_Man_76 lmao had me at first 🤣

[@philipconnell2214]

More moving/ jointed components = greater possibity of malfunction. Regardless of the simplicity of the breakdown or maintenance.

[@17nirmalya]

Agree

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

It's a goddamn buffer. Even pistols have dual, nested springs to help tame the violence of the cycle. Heckler & Koch designed combat pistols to be tortured with a steady diet of 185gr +P .45 per SOCOM requirements and the buffer did the trick. Somehow it's unreliable inside of a rifle instead of a pistol slide?

[@17nirmalya]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD Probability. High school mathematics. Nothing to do with Pistol V/s Rifle. With different manufacturers, probabilities would differ. Like a SIG rifle is more reliable than a Colt.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

@@17nirmalya Again - extremely reliable guns have used dual springs as a way to buffer the impact of recoiling mass. Real life combat weapons that have been tested vs highschool maths.

[@17nirmalya]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD Like which one ?

[@marccrawford2764]

I can tell just from the jolt to ur body, it has a good bit more recoil than a 5.56. A 5.56 has the recoil of about like a .22 hornet. That recoil looked almost double than a 5.56, but like u said, I feels like less recoil, not necessarily less.

[@mikeshoults4155]

5.56 can't hurt a Russian or Chinese soldier. No point having a gun that can't kill your enemy.

[@GundamReviver]

The main thing I see (as a non gun shooter) it pushes him back more.. But slower, and the gun doesn't viciously attack him like the spear did. Also he isn't wearing any for of bulky gear or armor, and our cappy doesn't look like a heavy man to me anyway, I suspect the slow push back would be conciderably lessened on a heavy (packed) man.

[@HatsuneM1ku01]

@@KeterMalkuth what would be an in between? Or even and equivalent to 6.8?

[@dgmma992]

@@HatsuneM1ku01 7.62 is inbetween 😉

[@petemcl99]

Amicus looks like it has all the right stuff. And I can't wait to try the True Velocity polymer-cased ammo. Thanks for your comprehensive review.

[@NoOneLikesVegans]

I've worked in the plastics industry for years now and I can tell you that the advancement in polymers lately is pretty amazing. Plastic seems pretty standard to most people but the variety and specialization occurring leads me to believe that whatever DARPA is coming up with in the weapons systems is probably pretty great stuff. I will also say that despite these advancements, with every specialization comes with drawbacks in some way. So keep that in mind as well. Just my two cents.

[@ummerfarooq5383]

DARPA's mostly like more concerned about selling makeup to little boys.

[@jonathanpfeffer3716]

@@ummerfarooq5383 liberals log by bolb. their gender??

[@820hurleyj]

A few years ago I saw some experimentation using polymer cases, which essentially disintegrated when fired. I believe they were having some significant issues with it but a case-less round would be ideal IMHO. Less weight and no brass to worry about. Reloading is gonna suck, though. 😏👀

[@mason4354]

How long do modern plastics last with regular exposure to the elements?

[@Wassermelonenbaum]

And what are the environmental impacts? People complain about plastic in fireworks once a year. I assume those rounds get used a lot more often..

[@Jason32Bourne]

In my opinion, from just viewing the thing being shot, it seems to have almost as much recoil if not more than a 7.62x51. If anyone has shot it, I would love to hear your experience. Another thing that's sounding off alarm bells would be the potential negative health impacts of having hot plastic being cooked and degrading (most likely on a micro scale) right next to one's mouth and face. It might not seem like a big deal, but aint no one want cancer, brain/lung damage, or any other hazardous side effects a few decades down that line.

[@Normandy-e8i]

@HellYeaNixon You okay, Karen?

[@CircaSriYak]

Trust me, whatever fumes it's emitting is nothing compared to the toxicity of the fumes and chemical byproducts of the gunpowder. Chief among them being the lead which can build up in your body.

[@deansmits006]

The total recoil may be similar to 7.62, but it seems like it may spread out the energy over a longer pulse with the internal mechanisms, allowing the less "felt" recoil. We will see if the better, more accurate optics make up for possibly not being able to volley as many follow up shots on target due to increased recoil

[@ChefofWar33]

Im sure the depleted uranium shells the grunts are tossing arround are the bigger concern. lmfao

[@pvtnewb]

The composite casing sounds nice, it's a good insulator hence more energy is transferred as kinetic energy and not lost as residual heat. Just like how engine manufacturers started using composite turbine blades

[@toxicblood115]

Not to mention on top of all of that, that it’s lighter as well

[@Turboactive]

Can't reload it so hopefully we can still get brass when wanted

[@SilvaDreams]

That's not how it works though. the case simply is a poor heat sink and thus doesn't get hot unlike a metal casing. While brass is a rather poor conductor of heat it is dense and can hold heat and the contained explosion of the gunpowder produces a lot of heat from the rapid state change as the chemical reaction happens. It doesn't produce any more or less power unless you are loading more powder, about the only upside is since the polymer case is a bad thermal conductor it won't miss fire from the barrel heating up over extended firing.... You just have to worry if it will miss fire or melt first since the hottest part of the barrel will be right at the base of the bullet and the top of the polymer case.

[@8BitNaptime]

Uh, those are fan blades, not turbine blades.

[@Turboactive]

@@SilvaDreams yes because polymer is bad insulator the heat and energy normally absorbed by the brass casings instead goes out the barrel = more power.

[@vejet]

I love Magi Spoon! 2:48 I was literally JUST talking up their cereal to a co-worker of mine today. Honestly it's not going to be long until they blow up imo

[@johnsmithfakename8422]

I like the technology concept. When it comes to polymer ammo the real issue is not the ammo, but how easily it can be adopted and manufactured by other companies and reloaders at home. If they can make it so that someone at their own home can make thousands rounds of ammo and it is economical. This could be impressive. If they can recycle the spent cases then I say it is game changing.

[@Rockool52]

The polymer case is not recommended to be reloaded. It can easily be recycled! True Velocity sells the machine which injection molds the case. The machine take up 1/10 the floor space of traditional brass forming lines and the polymer is less expensive than brass! In fact they say the cartridge making equipment can be placed in 2 shipping containers and can easily be flown anywhere overseas so the Army could actually manufacture their ammo on base overseas thus saving large amount of fuel and time by not having to ship the ammo from the states.

[@buddermonger2000]

@@Rockool52 if they could do that it could fit into that "mosaic warfare" concept

[@buddermonger2000]

reloading is realistically a small part of the civilian market but does contribute to wildcat cartridges

[@andrewmarotta7449]

I'm pretty sure you can make a brass version of the same ammo. The regular ammo manufacturers could make us that stuff and the army will get the polymer.

[@elmuerko]

The Army should go with Polymer regardless of the weapon the choose, it's got too many benefits to ignore. The gun itself looks good, but a lot of people dislike bull-pups and I could well see a more traditional AR platform chosen just because, which is a shame because the 19" barrel has a lot of positives to it.

[@lucasgomez3283]

Ive always thought we should transition towards a bullpup system, the preformance you get out of a 19" barrel while STILL being shorter than an M4 while having no big cons is just too good to pass up

[@gangatalishis]

@@lucasgomez3283 the only bull pup design I have seen that is good is the famas and VHS-2.

[@lucasgomez3283]

@@gangatalishis VHS looks good but is pretty unprovedn. FAMAS is okay, some of the design concept dont make sense to me. But it seems that your neglecting some of the most successful designs that came out of it like the AUG and the Tavor, fantastic designs that use 5.56 and imo use it better than the AR-15 platform

[@Ukraineaissance2014]

@@gangatalishis the latest SA80s are brilliant. Most accurate 5.56 ive ever been near

[@ThePartisan13]

@@lucasgomez3283 I do particularly love my X95

[@victorglaviano]

I've been using a .270 Weatherby for hunting since the 80s, the 6.8 is pretty much a .270 Winchester! My favorite round so many different weights, kills anything from elk to whitetail.

[@JoeOvercoat]

I realize there is depth to what you are saying, but whitetails everywhere just went “YA THINK!?!”

[@p_campbell]

@@JoeOvercoat White tail that got K.O.ed by a . 22 just said "thanks".... for the acnoledgement.

[@andrasbeke3012]

Gotta point out, that's a genuinely terrifying war face he has while aiming. Equally as frightening as how quickly he can drop it when he's done shooting.

[@DUKE_of_RAMBLE]

lol When I noticed he _wasn't blinking_ in between rounds/busts, even during full auto, I could tell he was on another level. Admittedly I don't watch many others shooting, nor videos of professionals, so I won't be surprised if that's common for military personnel (or even just of the special groups within branches)... But still, I was impressed! lol

[@TullyGehan]

On the video his voice is so professional and relaxing but when he grabs that gun it looks like the pizza rat just took his last slice and it's go time.

[@junkname9983]

especially compare to that bright-eyed optimistic naive look of a grunt who's fresh out of HS when he talks about breakfast cereal, it's quite a contrast.

[@josephgioielli]

I am a lot more interested in poly ammo than the rifle. In my heart I feel like we have already covered this ground with the M14.This might have been a great rifle for the last war, but the next ones will be urban combat. Not sure 800 yrd engagement is a top priority on a city street. Interesting to see where it leads.

[@maxscott3349]

Yeah, the range thing is kind of a load of bs. Wasn't the .223 Remington FMJ designed to meet the criteria of piercing a steel helmet at 500 yards, with a maximum effective range of 800? And last I heard, even the steel cored stuff won't punch through Russian level IV at any range.

[@huntmatthewd]

@@maxscott3349 Yeah, remember the original 20" barrel, but I think it was a Russian helmet at 300m.? Either way you're right. Good luck hitting 800m as an average soldier regardless of what optic.

[@robiiify]

@@huntmatthewd Maybe the newer ones that aim for you would make it workable

[@Araragi298]

If more energy is imparted into the round, that should mean higher muzzle velocity = more armor penetration. That's useful at any range.

[@kristianfagerstrom7011]

I think the selling point is better Body Armour penetration capability.

[@FromGamingwithLove0456]

I'm just a spectator but am excited at the innovation that's coming out with this weapon program... I like how they're finding ways to maximize the use of already existing energy sources (thermal in this case) to reach needed velocities that enhance kinetic energy performance on target. I like that these enhancements come with weight savings in mind while also not making the system so impossibly complex that your weakest member on their worst day can still troubleshoot the weapon in the field (probably?). Most of all- I like this channel!

[@AscendingBliss]

Everyone is so sure that Sig has this in the bag, but I think it is very much the opposite case. There are a ton of disadvantages that come with the Sig NGSW bid. First off, their 6.8mm cartridge clocks at an irresponsible 85,000 psi. That is insane, especially for what is supposed to be a standard issue rifle round. Any rifle using a cartridge that operates at 85,000 psi is going to be swapping through barrels like chewed gum. ESPECIALLY when the casings are just regular old brass and steel. The wear and tear that the Sig Spear will encounter on a regular operational basis will be unlike anything the Army has seen in a firearm. Another thing working against the Sig Sauer bid is that their rifle is already longer than the M4, and with its respective suppressor, it is laughably cumbersome, all while only having a 13" barrel. So what does the Beretta RM277 have going for it? - 19" barrel while being an overall shorter platform than the M4 - Integrated recoil mitigation system - Lower cartridge operating pressure which reduces wear and increases longevity/reliability - Extremely short suppressor that actually lasts longer than the rifle itself - Most importantly, the polymer 6.8 TV cartridge. Having a polymer casing means that compared to traditional metal casings, only about 50% of the generated heat is transferred outside of the cartridge to the barrel and other components of the firearm. That is an enormous difference. That means there is even less wear on the RM277, which even further compliments the lower operating pressure of the 6.8 TV round. People like to say, "the Army would never go with a bullpup rifle because they'd have to retrain personnel on a new style of rifle." This is literally the laziest argument ever, and a non-issue. The US military is 95% training. You really think they care that they will have to spend a day training personnel on how to operate and clean an already intuitive rifle? Please. In reality, it's not even the RM277 that gives Beretta/LSFW such an advantage. It is the fact that they are already offering easy conversions to their 6.8mm polymer cartridge for weapons like the M240 platform, which is widely used by the US military. There are a number of key advantages that would come with using the polymer 6.8 cartridge for a LMG. The M240 is operated by a two-person team primarily for the fact that it needs its barrel swapped in the middle of its operation. With a polymer cartridge only transferring about 50% the heat of a typical cartridge, mid-use barrel swaps would likely be a thing of the past. It also means that the Army can continue to use their old LMGs instead of paying for a brand new one like they would with Sig Sauer. Polymer-cased ammunition is the future. The 6.8 True Velocity and the Amicus/RM277 make a perfect pair and would give the Army an unparalleled advantage on the future battlefield. The choice is clear.

[@Maniac742]

This is, by far, the best entry into the ngsw program. The SIG entry is far too conventional and afraid of trying anything new. It also has an absurd chamber pressure and no new leap in technology forward to mitigate it so the barrel will burn out quickly. It's all so much heavier and still using old metal cased ammunition. I think polymer ammunition in the future.

[@MPdude237]

Like Cappy said before, SiG is betting on the Army being conservative. I would assume that SIG’s ammo could be made using all steel, which is already being used.

[@Maniac742]

@@MPdude237 The army would be retarded to be conservative. The M16 was NOTHING like the M14 when it replaced it. They weren't conservative then. They shouldn't be now.

[@damienharbin242]

Agreed. Army shouldn’t be conservative here, but safe money is always bet on the Army being conservative.

[@clonescope2433]

@@Maniac742 yes but that was also 1960s in the middle of a war, the military today with its budget has a lot more civilian government meddling in it than it did in the 60s and 70s. And then also to the biggest Allied Nations that use a Bullpup or going away from bullpups both France and the UK seem to be go into a more traditional AR-15 style setup magazine in front of the grip. I think the polymer ammo maybe promising but possibly the package is being offered in may not be.

[@raylandraybels9462]

@Clonescope conventional rifles are better suited when it comes to 5.56, but when you have a do-everything rifle in a 6.5 Creedmoorish chambering, the easiest answer is bullpup. At least, it's better than bumping up the chamber pressure a ton. The spear is hampered from the start of having a short barrel due to overall length and suppressor requirements while fitting it in a conventional package. Sig had no choice but to increase chamber which increases cham ber wall size which leads to a 8lb+ sig virtus.

[@TheSouthernshark]

Looks amazing. I really like it. I hope it gets sold to civilians eventually at a realistic price. It's a shame it doesn't have a quick change barrel though, as that would theoretically allowed for different calibers with a barrel swap (like .308 and 6.5 Creedmore).

[@mattrobson3603]

Just because the barrel isn't quick-change doesn't mean that there wouldn't be different caliber barrels available. Some disassembly for a barrel swap wouldn't make it appreciably more difficult on change calibers on the range. That being said, most people who I've seen talking about wanting to do that with a gun never really ended up doing it. They either sold the barrel/upper, or they just built it out into a gun dedicated to that caliber.

[@TheSouthernshark]

@@mattrobson3603 yeah because it's an AR-15, which doesn't have a quick change barrel, and because the AR-15 upper is so cheap to begin with that there really isn't any motivation to do something like that. But getting a dedicated upper here doesn't seem possible. So it would be nice to be able to change calibers with a barrel change. .308, 6.5 CR, and 6.8mm TV all use the same bolt and mag. So it would be a handy thing. Maybe down the line as it progresses.

[@NateJanesSmith]

this man should be the head of the marketing department of the whole world

[@CyborgPilord]

his ads are too good

[@karx11erx]

The plastic casing doesn't "generate" less heat - it *absorbs and transfers* less heat than a brass casing. ;-)

[@SongOfStorms411]

Please continue to do tactical updates on the war if possible. You did a fantastic job thus far and the mainstream news is not really covering this.

[@chairmanm3ow]

the war is over. Ukraine lost.

[@danconti5984]

As much as I’d love this to get in officially, we all know the US military and hierarchy hates new and innovative designs that make their receding hairlines uneasy and want the nice M4 looking rifles with traditional looking ammo despite the cost.

[@arvintyree1109]

That's ironically deja vu. Back when the m16 was first introduced it was met with similar scrutiny and doubt by the military top brass. They rather stick with what they knew the m14

[@danconti5984]

@@arvintyree1109 That's how it goes. Old 70 year old wrinkled husk fought the bad guys with M4's and so he wants M4 style weapons cause that's the only way it works in his mind, and anyone coming up with anything else makes his old brain hurt and is too "risky" since it's new and untested, despite it being just better. Now in terms of this being "better", that's debatable. We'll have to see the test results when they are released.

[@blaircolquhoun7780]

Back in the 1960s, there was a revolver called the Troon and used plastic ammunition. The Swedish IKS and German HK-11 which used careless ammunition.

[@velvetjones1856]

True Velocity has been around for a while but not widely available. Using the composite molded case, they can control internal contours to enhance charge velocity. Cases also lighter than brass.Sig and others have also developed prototype weapons for testing.

[@evaneaston6262]

Never been this early in my life

[@canadaisdecent1635]

Me neither

[@subjekt5577]

Cappy's shooting to the stars with this conflict on yt

[@iamredshift]

Not what your wife said I’m kidding

[@Bruh-gv6zt]

Same

[@saltysaty8686]

That's what she said on the first date...

[@saltaiaw]

Nice to see our allies experimenting with a bullpup system. When you get it right they offer way more advantages over traditional rifles. Interesting to see more work on polymer casings too. Maybe one we'll even have widespread use of caseless ammunition that has a very high cookoff temperature.

[@Talishar]

Or instead of caseless, they could use the specially formulated volatile paper to make a paper case that is consumed as part of the propellent in shooting it similar to modern tank ammunition. The only thing left after firing those things is the case head.

[@williamzk9083]

The Germans in WW2 were testing plastic cartridges made of "nipolit". They were completely combustible. Seemed to work.

[@p_campbell]

@@Talishar I believe the only problem is a build up of ash, that would jam the feed mechanism. If that could be solved.... 🤔

[@alex-ki5wm]

How do they offer way more advantages just because the mag being in a different spot??

[@saltaiaw]

@@alex-ki5wm Just to name a few advantage's. They have longer barrels which directly increases accuracy. They can be shorter which makes them easier for travelling in armoured vehicles. The weight is towards to back of the weapon which makes it easier to aim and carry.

[@stormiewutzke4190]

What sounds really interesting is if this tech was combined with Sig's. If you could put 80k PSI in that it could really change small arems tech. If you could get into the 110k levels that Sig's cartridges are supposed to be able to theoretically able to handle we could be into changes as big as switching to smokeless poweder or bigger.

[@neutronalchemist3241]

The goal was to have a lightweight rifle, controllable in full auto, that fires a more powerful cartridge than 7.62 NATO. That's not possible with a 80k PSI ammo. Thats why they developed a rifle that's able to do that working at conventional pressure.

[@stormiewutzke4190]

@@neutronalchemist3241 That's not true. Recoil is caused by 2 things. One is just the same energy that is being put into the bullet coming back and the other is the rocket jet effects of the gas exiting. Higher PSI allows more velocity from a shorter barrel and the charge can be adjusted to the gun and its intended role. Meaning a smaller case could be used. If a firearm could be made to work at 100k PSI and not have energy robbed by the case it would be possible to get this sort of performance out of very short barrels. It could improve even when used on a larger gun although if the case was built to perform in a 8"-10" barrel there probably isn't enough has volume for a long barreled gun but it may do well in something under 20".

[@TheCephalus]

Great, just what this world needs, more plastics! I can't get enough micro plastics in my blood. I love it

[@python27au]

4.38 . Only ever fired the M16 once but i remember it having no appreciable recoil at all, well not compared to the 7.62mm SLR. Just watching you trying to control that rifle reminds me of the old SLR. All those working parts just looks like more shit that can go wrong at the worst time.

[@a.t.2023]

I am a bit confused Chris, you said the recoil is similar to 5.56 but watching the clips of you fire the gun makes it seem like there is a lot way more recoil than there should be.

[@stealthyslawter]

He said thats what they say, big brain stuff:P

[@user-pq4by2rq9y]

My guess is that you still get more energy but over a much longer period of time, aka strong but soft recoil. Or could be just cappy having trouble to control it.

[@levimcn112]

Something something "less felt recoil" I think what he was trying to get at was though there is substantially more recoil, it doesn't feel like there is more recoil from the shooters perspective.

[@neutronalchemist3241]

You can't eliminate recoil, but you can make it "feel" less harsh. That's done by spreading the same energy for a longer time. That way the recoil feels more a push than a punch.

[@povang]

The recoil is massive, at 5:11 mark a short burst literally throws the shooter out of position. I was in the infantry and was the SAW gunner for my fireteam. I had many opportunities to go full Ramboo, even the M249 SAW in full auto didnt throw me that wildly out of position like this gun does.

[@theprfesssor]

I thought the gun already had a name.....the RM277 but hey I like this option the most, the bullpup design has always been the future and that begin a 19inch barrel shows the advantage, True Velocity's ammunition looks like the next step in cartridge design in the end I think all these factors make it my favorite out of the current NGSW program from the outside looking in anyway Even if it doesn't win I hope TV brings the weapon system to civilian market

[@johnh4957]

So is the 'shorty' called Amicus Brief? ; )

[@aaronfarnsworth7653]

I saw a claim recently, I forget who's video, that they have teamed up with Beretta to produce a civi version. If true, you may not have a long wait until you could enjoy your dream.

[@mikeday5776]

The concern, back when I was involved in such things, was microwave cook off by transmitter.

[@duba-uduba-u]

It would also being interesting to have a cost analysis. As well as a ballistic gel demonstration.

[@Spectre-tv7wi]

The M4 is probably most likely going to stay but if it is getting replaced, I’m guessing Sig Sauer will win.

[@realtalk4real243]

With the pandemic and the Ukraine war screwing with everything I doubt they would replace the m4

[@fossil6845]

@@realtalk4real243 most likely yes, considering they will have to manufacturing a lot of the 6.8 ammo aswell, not just the guns.

[@diligentone-six2688]

Replacing the AR/M4 platform is really uneccessary imo. Just convert the platforms to fire 6.8x51mm by building new parts for the AR that is capable of firing the new bullet. Saves a lot of money.

[@sartainja]

What ever happens: 1. Will waste plenty of U.S. taxpayers dollars 2. Will make little to no common sense 3. Will line the war chest of Senators and Congressman 4. Will be very complicated 5. Russia and China will steal and develop the same rifle within 3 years

[@jamesricker3997]

I'm thinking the Sig Sauer will win but it will probably be redesigned to take the polymer ammo.

[@towakin7718]

The heat not being "soaked" by the brass (also) means, that the barrell (not the chamber) will get hotter. It would be interesting to see how (much) point of impact shifts when fired a lot. Especially after the whole G36 story.

[@MultiMinecraftPiggie]

AFAIK the polymer casing still absorbs the heat. Brass transfers heat much faster than polymer meaning more of it can go into the barrel.

[@DeagleGamesTV]

@@MultiMinecraftPiggie Yep the insulative polymer absorbs most of the heat actually and is then ejected meaning very little of the heat is ever transferred to the gun.

[@ngcastronerd4791]

@@DeagleGamesTV I'm pretty sure that is not what he meant. My understanding is that because the polymer absorbs less heat more energy is transferred as pressure instead of heat, period. His point was that the round causes less "waste (heat in this case)" energy. Which might be the whole point of he recoil mitigation to balance that extra oomph those rounds might produce. If the rifle is still has a decent MOA at that 800m range.....damn.

[@Kiboxxx]

Sooooo... brass has a much higher heat conductivity and specific thermal capacity than polymers. That means, if a combustion (of gun powder inside the case) creates e.g. 50 J of thermal energy, this energy is partly used to heat the casing. The properties of the material of the casing define how much energy it requires to heat up X degrees (--> thermal capacity). Brass has a thermal capacity of 0,38. Polymer (I just found the value for PVC) has a thermal capacity of 1,3 to 2,1. Let´s choose 1,75 for PVC. That means with the same thermal energy, the brass casing would get 5 times hotter than a casing made of PVC. So the PVC casing would not get that hot in the first place. Secondly, another thing is how fast the heat travels through the material. This is defined by the value of heat conductivity. Brass has a value of 120, PVC has a value of 0,17. So if you had 300 °C inside the casing and outside of the casing the ambient air has a temperature of 23 °C, it would take the PVC casing ~700 times longer until the inside of the casing has the same temperature as the ambient air. So this value also defines how quickly the outside of the casing gets hotter, if there is heat inside. I think the point was the following: if less thermal energy is conducted away from the source (inside the casing), this energy cannot be used in another form. It seems that additional thermal energy inside the casing helps to power the round, making the process more efficient. So theoretically the barrel would also get hotter with a polymer casing (using the same amount of gun powder), but you could actually reduce the amount of gun powder and get the same muzzle velocity that you would get with more gun powder when using a brass casing. That´s how I understood it. Please don´t be too hard on me when I´m wrong, I always skipped the thermal dynamics class :D

[@Ryknfjor]

@@Kiboxxx no, i believe youre right. Ammunition has always had more room for potential in the deflagration/detonation capabilities. What always didnt is the barrel. Metals have mostly met their limits. It has to be both hard, yet tough and as hardened steels do make the cut, once you reach a new threshold in basically controlling EFPs out a barrel, the rifling in most get blown out in short order.

[@Braap420]

Polymer ammo looks like it came to stay, because even if they don't do the rifle and caliber switch they could potentially still go forward with that ammo, since it would still benefit any platform by allowing it to remain cooler.

[@makeitcold6649]

Sure looks like more recoil! Personally I wouldn't be concerned about the new ammo as brass could be supplemented if something came up, I'd be more concerned with the recoil

[@McKillahGuerilla]

There's something about the Amicus...i really want one but the Sig MCX Spear seems cool too

[@buddermonger2000]

after this video I really want one too lol

[@GaneshPramod]

The Amicus and it's polymer ammo makes so much sense. That's exactly why army will chose one of the other bids

[@thearisen7301]

Well Textron is out since their gun didn't meet reqs so it's the Amicus or SIG's Spear if anything wins.

[@robertreaves4503]

A 19 inch barrel is a great selling point. More pop at longer range would be one of my key performance criteria. Like most of the other comments there seems to be significant “observed” recoil. It may not feel like more to you but it is obvious to casual observation. Maybe an M-16 style buffer assembly could tame the issue we watched. Would I carry it? Yes. Would I buy a civilian version? No.

[@Motoboo_Marine]

I've seen plenty of small arms development programs spool up and never go anywhere due to a number of factors, so I'm usually a bit skeptical whenever drastic changes like this come out. I don't understand why the military takes equipment like the M4 or HMMWV, try to press it into roles it's not designed for, then complains about how they need a replacement. The M4 was never designed to be a primary infantry rifle. The M16A4, especially when paired with heavier bullets, has pretty impressive range for the caliber. Probably not as much as this thing, but I bet it would've been enough to where there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints. Instead, they took a weapon designed to be short and light, willingly sacrificed the range because 300m was "good enough", and then complained that it doesn't have enough range. Just like how they tried to turn the HMMWV into an armored assault vehicle when it was just supposed to be a general purpose vehicle for getting around, just like the jeep. Now they're replacing it with an assault truck and are looking to adopt a glorified dune-buggy as a general purpose vehicle for getting around, just like the jeep. That said, I'm at glad they seem to be testing the shit out of it. If a rifle can't handle having someone abuse the fuck out of it, it doesn't deserve a spot at the table.

[@maitele]

>I don't understand why the military takes equipment like the M4 or HMMWV, tries to press it in a role that it's not designed for, and then complains they need a replacement. You act like the boots welded plates to HMMWVs for shiggles. If they're having to fuck with the thing constantly, it's because using it "as it's designed for" has become untenable or unfavorable in some manner. at that point you might as well design a new thing with those new experiences and parameters in mind from the start... then wait until *those* become irrelevant and start it all over again. The only reason the AR15 has been so long lived is because it tends to be *just good enough* to not be worth replacing every time one of these design deficiencies is discovered, but that doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing these ideas.

[@texpatriot8462]

Watching you fire it, it seemed to recoil quite a bit.

[@summedummkopf6963]

6.8 is a battle rifle caliber, it's no joke. Espicially in full auto and in burst. Look at someone trying to do that with a G3 or FAL, hell even an M14.

[@Kaze919]

If he thinks the felt recoil is equivalent to a 5.56 then I don’t think he handles a 5.56 very well. Thing looked like it was manhandling him

[@deansmits006]

He didn't complain, though. Must be ok for him

[@texpatriot8462]

@@summedummkopf6963 they are claiming the rifle has the same recoil as 5.56. From the video, that doesn’t seem to be true. He was getting knocked about quite a bit.

[@misterspin9288]

Here’s hoping we won’t be facing Russian body armour any time soon, but, sadly we might be.

[@moonboy2941]

if we do, I think it's a little late to be coming up with new ideas for weapons and calibers to be used by the average infantryman.

[@Menaceblue3]

@@moonboy2941 You mean like how Putin is using old Soviet/early Russian federation equipment in the beginning waves against Ukraine?

[@moonboy2941]

@@Menaceblue3 no? They already have the equipment ready, in this case it's use it or lose it; the stuff depicted in the video hasn't even been decided upon by the us/NATO military, unless I completely missed the point here. I'm not following this rearmament situation very much, but as far as I understand, this is still in the picking stages of the proIect. In other words, different from what the ukraine equipment situation is.

[@lumbrs]

My experience with plastic ammunition. Assault rifle G3, .308, plastic blank ammo (red). When shooting single shot , or multiple single shots at a time, all is well. But as soon as it is shot in automatic mode. In even in short bursts. When used cartrige is ejected and new one is pushed in chamber. That plastic bullet melts and ... cook off. And thats it. Even after approx 30rounds on full auto. And then, when you try to extract the round. As far as is known then extracting rim is made from brass. So - bullet casing melts in chamber and only brass rim is extracted. If chamber heats up thats it. It is hope that these polymer coatings are much more resistant to heat, like they are saying. If not, you know .... P.S. had my hands on plastic ammo approx 8.years ago.

[@suryapratamak1690]

amazing stuff. More powerful than a 7.62 while being lighter. I actually thought that the 5.56 was used to reduce lethality especilly to civilians in urban combat. WIth this ammo and weapon, the lethality is far greater.

[@orlock20]

The 5.56 round was proved to be more lethal than the round used by the AK-47. The issue is the AK-47 will likely pass through the body where as the 5.56 round will bounce off bone or curve leaving a longer wound cavity and an increase chance of hitting a vital organ.

[@patman0250]

It's one thing to say it it's another thing to show actual facts and results. Which they didn't exactly do. I want to see tests with body armor. And I don't buy the less recoil because then going is kicking that guy back pretty hard.

[@timthorson52]

I think the drop in sizes of rifles size after ww2 to make the production of automatic weapons easier, resulting in lighter weapons, and lighter ammo. Recoil management among other things is easier. Lethality of 5.56 and 7.62*39 were still very adequate compared to 7.62 *54r. They also still worked at the ranges at which combat was taking place. We've made a few improvements to long range accuracy and other systems over the years. However it seems like the development of body armor is the driving force behind scaling up now.

[@lashlarue7924]

@@orlock20 +1 - 5.56mm was designed to create terrible wound channels. The bullets tumble in soft tissue. Lighter rounds mean more ammo can be carried.

[@ac.6667]

I think I read something like that too, the darker reason to use 556 was to wound the enemy combatants rather than kill in order to put a strain on the resources of the enemy IE medical, food, doctors, supplies.

[@jstraus34]

Was very skeptical as it looked way too complicated until seeing this review. That said still looks like a bullpup version my kids Nerf gun too. Love the recoil suppression mechanism in theory but as noted by other posters, looked more like Cappy was taking a shellacking.

[@Talishar]

Felt recoil is a function of impulse. The change in velocity over the change in time. The recoil management system is a damper system that works opposite of the initial impulse. It spreads the impulse over a longer period of time which makes it easier to manage for the shooter. Physics say that the energy that went in is still there. This energy leads to a felt momentum change and the recoil management system spreads this across a much larger relative time period. So instead of a sharp punch to the shoulder, it's more of a constant push. So Cappy is still moving quite a bit as the recoil is 20% stronger than the 7.62 NATO, but if you notice his muzzle, it barely rises and he's able to stay on target even though his body is being pushed around a lot.

[@jstraus34]

@@Talishar It will be interesting to see how that plays out in the competition as I assume they will have a test looking at accuracy combined with rate of fire. Both finalists have suppressors which can mitigate recoil as well.

[@Talishar]

@@NortheastSurvival911 If you actually saw the dates of when the OP posted and I replied, it was before it was announced that Sig won the contract. We already NOW know that this didn't win. We were commenting on what we were shown based on what we knew at the time. If you even bothered watching the video at all, you'd know that this was one of the competitors that Sig ran against.

[@BareSphereMass]

4:14 BS! We have eyes, we can see how much it kicks! It looks like it kicks as hard as .308. It might not have the muzzle clime issues of the m14, but quit with the "it feels like 5.56" nonsense.

[@Wardads1]

We used the Australian army version of the FN Fal in Vietnam . Standard NATO 7.62 ball was very good at putting anybody down no fucking around .

[@-JustHuman-]

Just the weight reduction is really a huge step, it improves a lot of things. You can carry more as a soldier, and even more when doing logistics. Can they scale the idea is my next question really ? As this would be excellent in ammo on planes too, and even granats for tanks too. And just by changing the taper of the shell it should be possible to slow or increase the speed of the bullet.

[@miriamweller812]

Reducing the weight of a firearm ist not a good idea, because that will increase the recoil and that's not really something you want. You WANT it to have a certain weight.

[@kaliningradtoczechrepublic8162]

@@miriamweller812 reducing weight means you can add other stuff(new mechanisms, suppressor, grip, etc

[@AscendingBliss]

The Army would be fools to not select the Amicus as the winner. Lower chamber pressure and less heat transfer means better longevity of parts, which is something the Army very much cares about. Also, RM277 has a 19" barrel while still being around the same total length as an M4, as opposed to the the Sig Spear which only has a 13" barrel and operates at a higher chamber pressure. Again, the Army would be absolute fools to choose the Spear over the Amicus.

[@mauzki-]

Its hard to say as comparing the rifles, you have to take into account that the US would prefer the spear for just how its an AR10 something their used to and the fact the ammo is rather traditional also the preference of sigs machine gun bid might come into play. Another element would be if they wanted to ditch the 6.8 or perhaps field it as a specialist around and keep 5.56 (or just replace it with that 6.8 SPC) and keep the shorter barrel varation. Mind you, lets be real, a lot of the slection process might just come down to people not caring about quality but instead opt for sig because it looks like an M4.

[@randyb3851]

boy did this comment age well... Also brass takes heat away better, all the polymer does is take leave more heat in the gun, thats why brass is hot when it comes out. Also Bullpup is an awful design just to get extra barrel length which is not really needed. The sig also comes with a 16 inch option, which is proven to have perfectly fine ballistics out of a shorter barrel especially with advancements in firearms tech as well as a high pressure round. This isn't back in the day when everyone needed a 20 inch barrel just to have their battle rifle shoot past 600m. Also not quite sure why it would be an idiotic choice when it makes less sense to choose a complicated bullpup design that is lower powered when their goal is to equip soldiers with a round powerful enough to take on modern ballistic plates, so it kind of defeats having a low pressure round and then building the entire gun to get a few extra inches for velocity. Also the sig had way better groupings. They made the perfect choice which is actually surprising, and it doesn't make much sense to not choose the sig.

[@820hurleyj]

Very interesting. I have an AR-15 and a SCAR-17S. For me, the FN is the perfect rifle. To me, its felt-recoil is less than or equal to the AR-15. TBS - I like the idea of this new rifle, lightweight, suppressed, range, and a seriously nasty round coming out the front end. I don't like bullpups. I'm old. They're just wrong (for me). The rifle "looks" long. A 19" barrel with a "can" probably adds to that, but judging from your video of the Amicus and the SCAR, the SCAR looks much more compact, plus it can even be fired with its stock folded. To me, the only "advantage" of a bull-pup design is a theoretical overall weapon length. The Amicus looks like you could golf with it. The mechanics being reliable is doubtful to me. The SCAR is an amazingly simple and lightweight design. I don't know how it would break from normal use. It looks like it kicks like a Garand. I had an A1-SOCOM-16 which is much easier on recoil using the 7.62 vs the 30.06, but that's my only real comparable experience. However, to be fair, my SCAR is an "S" so I have no real idea how it would perform in "fun" mode. I'm curious how the new 6.8 compares in size and weight to the 5.56 and 7.62. Basically, can a soldier realistically carry more ammo? Lastly, I'm not buying the smoke explanation or excuse. I've seen and fired a lot of rifles under similar conditions and that smoke looks excessive. It also appears to create more ambient heat. If so, wouldn't that paint a more visible picture with night vision? Maybe that's an acceptable trade-off - I don't know. I'm not entirely knocking the Amicus (I have no idea if I'm spelling that right.) I've been trying to keep track of the new designs and it looks like they're on the right track, but not quite ready for prime time.

[@TheChiconspiracy]

A Scar 17 with an equal barrel and suppressor length would be a lot longer... The ammo is supposed to be 30% lighter and shoot a lot cooler than 762 Nato.

[@820hurleyj]

@@TheChiconspiracy I had a SOCOM16 and Rem 700 in 7.62. Both of them recoiled (at least felt recoil) harder than the SCAR. I attributed it to the more inline style of the SCAR that Stoner started with the M-16. At least that's what it felt like to me. I hadn't thought about a suppressed SCAR. I guess the must make one but I've never seen one.

[@addnamehere7940]

M4 has a 2 take down pin set up also. I can’t remember the exact word but you can get a partial piston reload instead of complete gas to cycle so it’s a little more clean and some way more reliable

[@nriqueog]

I'm really interested seeing this Polymer ammo being tested in the other system of the Army competition.

[@JC-XL]

To be honest in the video the recoil looks noticeably stronger than the 5.56

[@s_vb2220]

the operating system seems a bit complex, and looking at the footage it knocks you around quite a bit. i am not sure if the increased firepower is worth the recoil and bulk, guess further testing will tell. also, keep in mind that the military has a habbit of testing lots of new things and then adopting none.

[@rachdarastrix5251]

That's because the new protects they test usually don't work. It is just a sad fact of life. For example the guy who invented the lightbulb also discovered over a thousand ways to fail to do so.

[@s_vb2220]

@@rachdarastrix5251 good point, the first version of anything usually sucks.

[@robiiify]

I think its just a long recoil but not a hard short one. It similiar to the G3 where it looks harsh but is quiet workable

[@kennethferland5579]

Heat issues were what killed the caseless ammunition system, without a case the combustion is directly in contact with the metal of the breach with nothing to remove it so cookoff comes very quickly, a metalic casing takes the heat instead and if rapidly ejected removes that heat from the weapon before too much is conducted into the breach. Caseless amunition offered a huge potential for amunition mass reduction and was seen as the holygrail, but when it failed the fallback solution for weight reduction which had been waiting in the wings was the polymer casing which now looks to be reaching maturity. Ultimatly a lack of cookoff is not the reason why to do polymer casing, it's a fortuitous side benifit to lighter ammo, though it looks like the choice is going to be to give the infantry man more power in each round rather then giving them more rounds to fire which had been the original desire when interest in caseless ammunition first started.

[@toynazi]

The M4 is a great platform. The majority of issues the Military had in recent wars was the ammo they issued with the M4's. The typically used 62 grain green tips for the average unit which is a poor choice. In Iraq 62 normally went right through people and didn't even stop them until after five to six rounds hit them. They need a more expanding round.

[@rjmercer042]

The use of expanding bullets is against a number of treaties the US is signatory to... which is why we do not use them.

[@connor3288]

Some of the afghans and possibily iraqis were high on drugs. And once rifle rounds drop under a certain speed they are much less effective , i thought i heard the number was around 2000fps, probably off a little.

[@FoRm4t123]

i dont see the army changing their rifle anytime soon. until they can come up with a gun and ammo that significantly better in every way to what we have currently. i think the upgrades will come in the form of the optics and maybe augmented reality.

[@gj1234567899999]

20% more powerful than 7.62 is way more powerful than 5.56... that’s a huge significance. Also with body armor 5.56 isn’t going to do anything to you...

[@kameronjones7139]

This weapon may get fast tracked with recent events along with several upgrades and newer weapons in military

[@Hardbass2021]

I wouldn't ve surprised if the situation in Ukraine is the reason for the NGSW program to be pushed.

[@kameronjones7139]

@@Hardbass2021 yeah everyone is going to rearm it will be interesting to see the direction other countries take

[@Lithane97]

Honestly, the more I see this gun, the more I like the looks and idea behind it.

[@cthonikgaming2747]

couple of worries i have, 1- the visible recoil was clearly higher than that of an m4; 2- while i am not against bullpups (i own one), i find them more awkward compared to a standard weapon platform not much of an issue but for grunts who've never shot a bullpup it'll be more of a dramatic shift from what they've been trained from day one. myself included in that last bit. the ammo is a great idea as long as it holds up though

[@MidnightSvn]

The awkwardness of bullpups is greatly overstated. Just need to adjust to it really.

[@ethankeon8152]

I think the whole idea is that its for next generation of conflict meaning those who are trained on this as thier frist rifle wont feel that awkwardneess of a pullpup if there even is one plut the bullpup has seeveral useful benifits

[@17nirmalya]

Agree with J A. We moved from AKM to Tavor TAR to AK 103 with no issue at all. Currently using TAR / AK 103 interchangeably depending on nature of op

[@craigmandall9420]

I don't understand the whole "it's different so we won't be able to adapt to it" arguments. It all comes down to training, and aren't military members supposed to be highly adaptable anyway. I'm sure they'll be comfortable with it in no time if they have to be

[@cthonikgaming2747]

@@craigmandall9420 absolutely, and as I said that was the lesser of my worries with the platform. I did say however that switching to a vastly different platform type would take time, and more training than if we were to swap to something similar to what we already have in layout. No it's not an issue but the fact is that it would simply be easier to run a "normal" platform, especially for those of us who reloading how we do with an m4 has been ingrained. Hopefully that clears up that bit

[@TylerDarker]

50% less heat per round? God damn that's a huge change

[@patriotintraining3822]

Bull-pups usually have poor triggers due to the mechanics of design. The magazines are difficult to load into the butt-stock and activation of the bolt release takes time to learn because it’s not “intuitive.” Did you find these issues addressed or resolved?

[@likeorasgod]

Not to mention any poor soft paws would have brass in their face more than a traditional firearm.

[@metallampman]

Im amazed and very impressed with the new rifle.. i hope we get it but BUT .. i can tell the recoil is much greater than the 556 by watching it punch you back with each pull of the trigger

[@Jayboyd1260]

As someone who has shot both surviving ngsw entries, how do they compare? We know that vortex is the winning scope, which the technology there is pretty nuts on a gun mounted sight. But the gun choice is still in the air... I guess I also want to see a test where the two ammo types are pitted against the highest level body armor (4a?).

[@themanhimself3]

Doesn't the a on 4a make it weaker?

[@Jayboyd1260]

@@themanhimself3 ah yes it does. I get that mixed up often, my bad.

[@themanhimself3]

@@Jayboyd1260 I honestly wasn't sure and didn't do the Google search don't feel bad. Thank you for the response.

[@JAB6322]

Brass/Steel hybrid, Polymer, Caseless, etc. So many possible winners for the NGSW bid. Would be funny if someone had a bright idea to put the propellant inside the bullet itself. "We fire the whole bullet. That's 66% more bullet, per bullet." -Cave Johnson (Portal)

[@funcounting]

The case seals the chamber so you can't easily do without it. Volume's also the problem, can't stick as much powder into the bullet.

[@hankwells2637]

I just can’t wrap my head around how the “less than ideal” soldiers could be able to handle the added recoil over 5.56. Seeing the “ ideal” soldier still being tossed around a bit by these new rifles kinda reminds me of why the US went away from the battle riffle to begin with, even if it is for the increased use of body armor getting more shots on target quicker is the end goal, and getting hit by 5.56 to the chest even if the armor catches it is not something that people can just shrug off.

[@Hybris51129]

Maybe someone in the DoD actually believes in "Russian super soldiers".

[@lordhuck2689]

I get this funny feeling. Conspiracy incoming. That the army wants that recoil. They want certain personnel not to be able to qualify with the weapon so they won't be infantry. Removing the soldiers in question from infantry and armor would not be feasible politically. The gun will do it for them.

[@huwhitecavebeast1972]

I've spoken to guys who took AK rounds to their SAPI and they said it was nbd,

[@manictiger]

@@lordhuck2689 Hmm... Thing is, they went out of their way to make the "Emma has two moms" recruitment video. Not sure I buy the "they're secretly still based" theory.

[@lordhuck2689]

@@manictiger Elements in the military made the "Emma has two moms" video. The HR department is usually a bit off in any company. Besides, they may still want Emma, just as a drone pilot or a logistics clerk, not infantry. If Emma happens to be an athletic 6'2" then Emma could probably qualify with the gun. Most of the time Emma isn't 6'2" or particularly athletic.

[@crypto4YNs]

“I fired the FN FAL” while showing you shooting the FN Scar lol Excellent videos none the less